[This exchange among Matt, Brad, Sean, Peter, Phil, and Andrew is about balancing one's own wishes with a concern for the feelings of others. It begins with Matt's posting:]
I'm thinking about the Other Guy. I'd like to hear from those of us who are fortunate enough to have our guy on the side and if we're lucky a guy we love. The ones whose wives may understand and accept (though with extreme difficulty) our need to have this as part of our lives. How does the other guy handle it? It seems he is mostly in a subordinate role playing second fiddle to the wife and family relationship.
Is it reasonable to expect this man who loves me to enter into a relationship with my family? What of his desire to find a fulfilling long term relationship? If anyone out there can address the needs of the other guy I would appreciate hearing from you .
Matt
[Brad responds:]
Matt,
My situation is a bit different than yours, in that the guy I love is married and has kids, just like me. Both he and I are committed to our marriages and are working very hard with our wives to incorporate our love into our lives without compromising the marriage and family situations on either side. Sounds like, in your case, the guy you love is single. That's a very different dynamic in some ways, I'm sure.
I must admit though, each of the four of us at times has expressed the feeling of being in a subordinate role, playing "second fiddle" to the others. When I notice this in myself, I try to find that place inside where I understand that love is abundant , that we can express love with more than one person and still not place any of them or ourselves in a "subordinate" role. It helps me keep my own insecurities in perspective when I realize that when my boyfriend expresses love for his wife, I am not necessarily loved "less than". Just as when I express love for my boyfriend, I don't love my wife any less (even though at times she has felt that way too) As you can imagine, the intellectual understanding of this comes much easier than the emotional.
You write, "Is it fair for them to give up their expectations for a full time loving relationship?" Is it fair to ask? Yes! There is no shame in claiming and expressing your needs, wishes, dreams. In fact, it is important to know what you want, see if it's available, and if it's available, enjoy it. If it's not available, choose whether you want to sublimate your desires and compromise and stay in your marriage, or choose to get a divorce. The point is, each of us is responsible for our choices to give , receive, compromise, stay, or leave. Just remember that your wife and your lover also have choices that deserve to be respected.
But are you really asking him to "enter into a relationship with your family?" Perhaps all you want is for him to accept that you have a relationship with your family.
All any of us can do is get clear about our own wants/needs. Then we need to let the others in the situation decide for themselves what they want, and what they are willing to do. Maybe you'll find that there is the willingness and capacity for abundan t love. Perhaps your wife will decide that she wants to try and accommodate your need for a man into your marriage (maybe not). And maybe your lover will decide he wants to try and accommodate your need for a wife and family into his relationship with you (maybe not).
In any case, it's their decision to make. But they'll never have the opportunity to choose if you don't feel you have a right to at least ask. And if you don't ask you'll never know if you could have gotten what you need.
I wish you grace and courage in your journey. I have great respect for you, as I do for our other brothers on this forum. This is hard work. There is no "standard" solution. In the end, the choices are yours. You have a lot of company on this journey.
Brad
[Sean replies by telling his own story. For other accounts of the threesome Sean talks about, click on any of the following numbers. For Sean's story, see 1,2 ; for Jennifer's story, see 3 ,4 ,5, 6 ; for Alan's story see 7 .]
Matt,
In reply to your "Other Guy" posting, I have been in your position. Two years ago, I fell in love with Alan. I was also in love with Jennifer, my wife of then 8 years. I was truly overwhelmed by the possibility of having a real long-term relationship with a man, and terrified by the thought of losing him. I rather impulsively bolted, told Jennifer I was leaving her, and moved in with Alan.
During the next six months things changed. I missed Jennifer like crazy. My relationship with Alan started to settle down and became "old" as the New Relationship Euphoria wore off. I found that a relationship with a man, while it did definitely fill a fundamental and necessary need in me, was really just another relationship with another person, with all the same petty irritations, compromises, and boring periods of any relationship. Don't get me wrong - I still loved and do still love Alan very deepl y. But the two relationships seemed more equal once my desperate need for a man was quenched.
So I told Jennifer and Alan that what I wanted was to have them both in my life. And then we went through a long period of trying to work out what everyone wanted. Jennifer and Alan each wanted to have me all to themselves. Both knew that was not going to happen. Barring that, both wanted to be primary, and have the other be secondary. But each was not willing to be secondary. So here we are -- finally -- building a life in which they are equally part of my life, both primary in their own ways.
This was not, however, a "decision," it was more something that evolved with great difficulty and pain and struggle over two years. At many many points, one of us was ready to walk out. But we've all stayed together and worked out the bugs and adapted to each other, and found sources of support we didn't know would be there. Jennifer and Alan have become "family" to each other. This is important for us. It meets a need in Alan, to be part of a "normal" family. So there is a gain for him as well as a lo ss.
I'm not writing this to say this is the path to follow, by any means. I guess the few nuggets of wisdom I've gotten out of the experience, though, would be:
1) It is really hard not to shape what you think you want to what you think you can have. It was hard for me to admit (to myself) that I really wanted men when I was afraid of losing Jennifer. It was hard for me to admit (to myself) that I really wanted Jennifer in my life when I was afraid of losing Alan. But we all learned that things worked best for us when we would all be honest about what we wanted, even if we couldn't have it, and work from there.
2) Don't assume that six months down the road anyone will feel what they feel now. It was shocking to us how much our feelings changed, constantly. At one point, Jennifer was sure she could never stay with me if I loved someone else. At one point, Alan was sure he could never bear for Jennifer and me to have sex again. Six months later, we look back and are shocked at how different we feel. Often, we didn't know how a situation would feel until we actually tried it.
3) So don't make decisions about what you want before you try it. For us, it worked better to go into things tentatively: to say, let's try this for six months and see how everyone is feeling at the end of that time.
4) For us, it worked much better the more Jennifer and Alan developed a real relationship. Then, instead of "enemies" fighting over me, they became allies in trying to work out the situation. They supported each other, watched out for each other's interests. Now, I mainly leave it up to them to decide how we will do things. Fortunately for me, they are both extremely caring and moral people who treat each other well.
5) Give the whole process lots and lots of time. Often, it has seemed we have moved at a snail's pace. But it took that much for us all to adapt to changes, and for the relationships to mature and develop. For Alan and me to get "old" and secure with e ach other. For Jennifer and Alan to get close. For Jennifer and me to work through the pain of the past. For Alan to get past his resentment and anger at my not being all his.
You ask, why would the "secondary" person agree to be in such a relationship, and is it fair to them? One of the other things we feel we've learned is that people have to be doing what is best for them, given their real options. If Alan thought he coul d find another man he could have full time, someone he would be as happy with as he is with me, he would not have made a commitment to stay with me. He decided to do this because he is 40, he has had several long term relationships with gay men, they have all ended unhappily, and he really thinks being with me half time is probably a better bet for the rest of his life than trying to find someone else. If he were 28, it would probably not be a good decision for him.
I don't know whether any of this has applications to your situation, but I thought I would pass along where our journey has brought me.
One last reaction I had to your post. I would not leave a marriage I valued for a young relationship. If I really wanted out of the marriage anyhow, O.K. But people in the throes of New Relationship Euphoria value things differently than they do when t he first swoons of new love settle into long term everyday love. Hey, a lot of us probably ended up married and gay in part because the passion of New Relationship Euphoria with our wives made us think we could put the desire for men away.
I'm not saying you should stay with your wife, and let this guy get away --- I'm saying, don't leave her just in order to keep him unless that is really what you want.
I wonder: what would you really want right now, if other people were willing to go along with it? Would you want your wife to go "on hold" for a while so you can try out this new relationship full time? To see them both half time? To continue to live w ith your wife but see him part time while you see where it goes? I guess I'd say figure out what you really want, no matter how outlandish, and then see what other people are willing to do.
I wish you good luck from the bottom of my heart. Having been there, I know how hard it is to find a path which you can then live wholeheartedly, and I know how hard it is to deal with your feelings of guilt over the pain you are causing people you lov e. I do hope you all can find the best path for you.
Sean
[Peter adds his own version, a less intense threesome than Sean's:]
I'd agree that it isn't fair to rope another man into a loving relationship either without telling the whole story or by building up hopes that you're just waiting to separate, but that wasn't the case with me. From the beginning Marshall has known my situation, and we have worked to make our relationship as full time as possible. I'm not able to spend the night at will, but aside from that we spend as much time together as many single gay couples. More than some. I know of several of my friends that either have jobs requiring them to work long hours or other family commitments like elderly parents that spend less time with their partners than we do.
When Marshall and I first started dating, we did not intend for things to turn out the way that they did. We felt that the best thing for us was a very casual relationship. Affairs of the heart can seldom be planned though. We fell in love, and decided that the only options were to either stop seeing each other or to try to integrate a loving relationship into my marriage. The choice to continue was his as much as mine, and he has been in other relationships enough to know what he's giving up. He feels that it's worth it.
The other man doesn't necessarily have to play second fiddle either. Admittedly, I spend more time with my wife and daughter because I have more commitments to them. Father's Day is an important family day, so we've cancelled our normal plans so that I can spend the day with Sarah and Nora. On the other hand, on Saturday Marshall will most likely be taking his pet of 10 years to the vet to be put to sleep. That day, he'll need me more so I've arranged to spend my time with him.
I would agree that both my wife and my lover are very exceptional people, putting in so much effort to make this work. For the why, again you'd have to ask the two of them. Some women may be attracted to gay men because of different qualities we tend t o have. I guess that the same thing can be said for gay men being attracted to guys like us. Being a husband and father tends to indicate certain character traits just as being gay does. He has told me before that he recognizes my daughter as being a very important part of my life and is touched that I want to share that with him.
What of his desire to find a fulfilling long term relationship? The only person that can answer this is the other man. I worried about this a lot when I first started dating Marshall seriously, but he's as happy with the relationship as I am. He's happy for me to share what time we can, and has even said that after living on his own for 15 years, he likes not having to give up his freedom while still having someone to love, someone to be there when he needs them. In some ways a conventional relationshi p would be difficult for him too. He is very close to his family, and while he's out to them he knows that they are in no way ready for him to bring a lover to Thanksgiving dinner. He worried in conventional relationships that he would be torn on occasion s like that wanting to spend time with his family but worrying about leaving a lover alone at home.
We are just now starting to get into integrating him into our family. He loves spending time with us, and it helps make up for some of the time that I can't spend with him alone. So far he's been to dinner with Sarah and me, spent the day at the amusem ent park with my daughter and me; and next week all of us, including my mother in law, are going to see a play together. I don't claim credit for any of the success of this. It has worked because Sarah and Marshall wanted it to work.
Hugs,
Peter
[Phil responds with his own story:]
Dear Matt and others,
On the subject of The Other Guy, you've heard good stuff from Bruce (in a foursome) and Sean and Peter (in a threesome). My experience is a little different since I have one wife and several boyfriends. There are lots of people in the world who need so me loving, and I have lots of love to give! I do not feel that I am selling anyone short because my love is widely shared. Everyone knows my situation, and no one is led to think they have a prospect of having me all to themselves. If they need more and c an find it, I encourage them to move in that direction (and maybe leave me behind); I hope I have tutored them well!
"Fly away, little bird," my most intense male lover would say, "and if you come back, it will be because you are stronger and more independent and really choose to do so." (I'm quoting him a little ruefully. Of course, he's the one who just flew away.)
Each of my relationships has its own character and timetable). One guy sometimes calls himself "the other woman" in relation to my marriage, but I don't think he is complaining about being secondary. Except for my marriage, I am not seeking a long term relationship, and none of my boyfriends seem to want that either. Single gay guys (and even gay couples) are often more cut off from family life than they want to be. Although I do not drag my boyfriends into my family constellation, I share stuff about my family with them as easily as other topics, and that may lend them a little feeling of connectedness. It is good to be sensitive to the needs and views of the Other Guy, to lay your own cards on the table, and to let him choose how he will respond.
Love, Phil
[Andrew tells about being the 'Other Guy':]
I am a 44 year old gay man who has unluckily become involved with a number of married men throughout my adult life.
Much as I longed for a deeper relationship, I never became more than "the other guy". The married men I have known called themselves bisexual. That label seemed to give them permission to behave with little conscience, morality or loyalty.
For me, an encounter with a married man always ended in tears for somebody in the equation. And when tears came, the married man followed the path of least resistance. It is distressing to read the stories on this page where men admit to infidelity with other men and expect their wives to support this duplicity for the sake of years married and kids shared. Whatever the wives may think, to me a dishonest marriage is just that. It cannot be fixed through endless discussions and a desire to fix things.
I wish that married men would imagine the feelings of their wives and their lovers. Would they accept the situation if they were not the main protagonist? I think not. It is naive to expect that discussion and a brokered acceptance can solve the problem. Phil (who has so much love to give) illustrates what endless self deception can lead to. Does he honestly believe that he can continue through life hooking up, getting off and still expect the good little woman to wait for him at home?