Your comments about privacy issues being, more fundamentally, about who is wanting more intimacy and who is wanting less really hit home for me. I had been feeling uncomfortable with this thread, but didn't know how to express it, so had been quiet. My wife Jennifer and I tend to trade off, at different times, who is more needy of intimacy, and we do get into major battles over trying to control the other's response to us -- sometimes I'm the cold, hard male who resists her clingy female attempts to get something out of me. But just as often it is the other way around (of course, then I see her as the bitchy, unresponsive female and me as a person genuinely and legitimately in need of a response!)
When I heard people talking about an "increased need for privacy," I found myself wondering what the motive was. Why is one spouse feeling a greater need to hide a part of his life from the other? I can understand why that would cause anxiety on the part of the spouse: if my wife was intently involved on the computer, or meeting someone, or on the phone and didn't want me to know what it was about, it would make me very anxious and I probably couldn't stand to leave her alone until she told me. That isn't because I need to know everything, but because I would be anxious as to why, in this case, she needed to hide something from me. Sometimes there have been areas of our life that we have agreed to make private, for reasons we both understand and accept. For example, we don't ask each other about what goes on in our therapy sessions, because we feel it would detract from the usefulness of therapy if we didn't feel free to talk about feelings we might not yet be comfortable discussing with each other. Similarly, we sometimes write journals that we don't let the other read - again, to have a private place to think out loud, free of having to worry about the other person. In these cases, privacy has worked well to give us some freedom, and has not put us into conflict or fear.
On the other hand, we have had areas of conflicted, furtive privacy which were not mutually O.K. and caused a lot of tension - this was mainly when my gay life was "hidden," "in the cracks" of our life - and I didn't want to tell her about staying up late to watch videos, stopping on the way home for anonymous quick encounters. She knew I did these things generally, but I didn't feel comfortable telling her every time (Why Not, one might ask? Because I was afraid of her reaction, because I was afraid she would take it away from me somehow, because I was ashamed of what I was doing, and talking about it openly would force me to see how sad it was). This caused a lot of tension -- I'd be twenty minutes late getting home, she'd be wondering whether it was traffic or sex that delayed me. If she asked, I'd blow up. If she didn't, she'd be tense and withdrawn.
In retrospect, I don't think this was an issue of privacy, but really an issue of we weren't O.K. with what we were doing. I didn't really feel like my homoerotic life was O.K., above board, an accepted part of our life. She didn't really feel O.K. with it. Truthfully, I didn't really feel O.K. with it. I think if we had both felt O.K. about what I was doing, the privacy issue would have disappeared - it wouldn't have been a big deal for me to tell her, and it wouldn't have been a big deal for her to know. But privacy was the issue we used to fight out a tension over what I was doing.
I think for me, this is the heart of the part of the problem in the situations we face as bisexual married men -- to be in what is supposedly your closest, most intimate, most committed relationship with a person -- and to want something which seems antithetical to that relationship, which causes that person pain. Sometimes it feels like all there are different bad alternatives. Without trying to speak for everyone, let me say what the alternatives sometimes look like to me:
1) Self-denial -- to different extents, ranging from complete lying to oneself (it's not really true, I can change it, I can control it)... resulting in depression, lack of vitality and intimacy in the marriage, often a decline in passion in the marriage, to more recognition but not acting freely on one's feelings (a secret, limited life acted out in pornography, internet, phone sex, perhaps brief furtive encounters) resulting in obsessive, unfulfilling sexuality, depression, and tension and lack of intimacy in the marriage (she doesn't know who I really am).
2) Deception/double life -- developing a homoerotic life without telling our spouses -- resulting in guilt, a lack of intimacy in the marriage, a homoerotic life constrained and distorted by the need to hide, as well as the debilitating effects of living a lie, and anger and resentment at our spouses for forcing us into such a position.
3) Disclosure and divorce -- which gives the freedom to pursue our homoerotic side fully and unconstrained, but at the cost of our families and our marriages.
4) Disclosure and trying to work out a new marriage -- which gives the possibility of having a life in which one's homoerotic side can be lived out "in the light," above board and open and hopefully in a mature, satisfying way and still maintaining intimacy -- but at the cost of a probably painful and energy draining process of working through very difficult issues, and with the risk that there WON'T be a way for you and your wife to both be happy with your life, and you are back to (3).
I've done (1), a very small and short-lived bit of (2), a bit of (3) (I left my wife to live with a man, but never really ended the marriage and we continued to work together, while giving me a chance to play out my homoerotic needs fully), and lots of (4).
None of them is easy, that's for sure. None of them is easy for our wives, either. It isn't easy to live with someone who is depressed, moody, unresponsive to you sexually, preoccupied. It isn't easy to live with someone who is lying to you about a major part of their life (don't you think at some level this gets communicated to our wives, that it makes a difference in the relationship?). It isn't easy to have your spouse tell you that you aren't enough for them romantically or sexually, that they want someone else.
Our spouses are caught, with us, because of their love for us and because of the promises we made to them, in this very difficult situation where it seems hard for anyone to ever be completely at peace or content or even out of pain. Please, let's not blame them for being anxious, depressed, over-emotional, angry, controlling. They are that way for very good reasons. As we are often depressed, over-emotional, obsessive, angry for very good reasons. This damn situation hurts both parties so much.
Whether we tell our wives or not, I believe they are being hurt. It's not our fault, it's not their fault. It's not our fault we want something that hurts them; it's not their fault they are hurt by something that we want. It's just the way it is. At least we can care for each other, for the pain the situation causes both of us. At least we can not blame each other.
I have written this very negatively, I know. I haven't written about the joys on all sides of these alternatives -- the joy of accepting a part of yourself, of coming out, of fulfilling a long-denied need, of being loved by a man; the joy of being honest with your spouse and refinding a greater marital passion and intimacy, the joy of the depression dropping away and life feeling vital and real again, the joy of being loved for who you really are and not feeling you have to hide anymore, the joy of building a new marriage together based on love and caring so great that it transcends the difficulties.
On this list, and on the spouse-support list, we hear a lot of both these pains and these joys. Sometimes I am concerned, however, that on this list, I hear more of the joy of discovering/affirming our homoerotic side, and more of the pain of being in conflict with/dishonest with our wives. On the spouse-support list, I hear more of the pain of the spouses following disclosure, and not so much of the joy of making a new marriage. Maybe it is because these are the experiences we tend to want to share...the ones we can't share so much with our spouses.
Sean
[In a subsequent posting to the Internet mailgroup for bisexual married men, Sean continues by sending a copy of his wife Jennifer's posting on the Spouse Support List.]
Hi guys,
Recently my wife has been discussing, on the straight spouse list, the topic of gay/bi men being egocentric, immature, selfish, etc. in their dealings with male/male sexuality and their marriages. Since this touched on some of the issues we have raised recently (being selfish, your needs and others, etc.), I thought I would forward some of her comments to this group. Her post also expresses some of my feelings about how my male/male sexual/romantic feelings have changed now that I have a committed lover as opposed to the more casual encounters I was doing earlier.
Sean
[Jennifer responds on the Spouse Support List to another wife's posting:]
It sounds as though not just your husband's sexuality with men, but the WAY he is doing his male sexuality, the kind of person he is being in that context, is a turn-off for you. It sounds as though the caring, understanding person that has often been there for you is replaced by someone else who can't be responsible or caring when it comes to getting enough and gratifying enough male-male sex.
I often felt this when Sean and I were living together and he was seeing men --- that he "wasn't himself" and wasn't a person I liked very much when it came to trying to "get enough" male contact. It felt as though he was unable to give up small things, when I was giving up such big things. In retrospect, I see that we had created a situation in which he wasn't really enabled to act caringly and responsibly vis a vis his gay feelings. He was a starving man. He never got full, he was always hungry. To ask someone to be caring and mature and responsible vis a vis the scraps of food they get is pretty hard. Now, Sean has a full banquet set before him: all the male love and sex he could want, without limit. In this situation, he has become for the first time able to make responsible, caring choices; to decide what he needs and what he can give up, to take other people's needs into account, to compromise without resentment. Though I felt sorry for myself for how he acted in the past, I realize now that it was a terrible price for him, too. It is pretty awful to have your needs so denied that you turn into a selfish, in some ways shallow person. I don't think he liked who he was being toward men any more than I did. Now he feels like his whole self, the self he likes and I like, with Alan and with me. He can be gay not frantically and desperately and somewhat perversely, but with dignity and wholeness and simplicity and some grace.
Last week, Sean and Alan went to see "Party," a Broadway play about 7 (I think) gay men. They play a game in which eventually they all end up naked, which they are for the rest of the play. His reaction was that having them all naked served to "defuse" the whole gay furtive-longing-lewd dynamic. Once you had looked -- yeah, there's this guy's penis, there's that guy's penis, there's a muscular chest, there's a tight butt -- there was nothing to be "looking for" or yearning after. It was just like-- yeah, OK, so?
Rather than emphasizing the physical, it allowed him to see it and put it away, and concentrate on the characters as people.
It seems to me there is a "forbidden fruit" aspect of gay sexuality. It is much like straight teenage boys who think constantly about and yearn after women and their bodies, because the women are not easily available to them. Sometimes that forbidden aspect makes it much more difficult for both the gay/bi and straight spouse. It feels as though the men "want" male sexuality/relationships more because they feel more desperate/anxious/urgent about that need. Sean sometimes uses the analogy of air or water. Which do you "need" more? Well, you need to breathe all the time, but you die without either. If you have air and are thirsting to death, all you can think about is water. Air doesn't seem too desirable, and a drink of water feels like the most wonderful, gratifying thing in the world. But if the air is taken away, it quickly becomes urgently important.
I understood the frustration of seeing your spouse acting in a way that is so unthinking, uncaring, immature, shallow, selfish, egocentric. The other side of that frustration, for me, is to ask what is making this man I have loved and respected act like such a jerk? Is there any way to change the situation so that he can be freed to act with more humanness? Of course, if he just IS immature, egocentric, etc., then maybe changing the situation won't help. But if someone who is capable in other contexts of being a mature and caring and responsible person acts like a jerk, maybe it is worth asking why.
One answer for Sean and me was to realize that it is hard to act maturely when you are in a state of major deprivation and anxiety. (My way of understanding this is to think of the times I am majorly sleep deprived I can turn into a BITCH - can't be nice to the kids, hate anything that keeps me from sleep, etc.).
Jennifer
[In answer to a man who wrote describing abusive quarrels with his wife and his lover, Sean responds:]
Richard,
Your post brought up some memories and reflections for me of my experiences with Alan and Jennifer. I thought I'd offer our experience, for what it's worth, YMMV (your mileage may vary).
The primitive rage that can be brought out in people who at other times can be very loving, mature, understanding -- that was real familiar to me. Through these last years, Jennifer and I have both at many points been rageful, cruel, verbally and physically abusive to each other. She's lost it, and I've lost it. It still happens sometimes, but much less now. And then at other times, we've had such deep love and compassion and empathy for each other's pain. You ask whether your wife really loves you or hates you. I'd imagine, from what you say, that it is complex. She loves you and cares for you for who you are and wants you to be happy; she is full of rage and pain for her disappointment and loss; she hates you in moments because you are the source of her hurt; she wants to be close; she wants to get away so she can feel better.
For Jennifer and me, the question has been Can we find a situation in which both of our needs are being met, so that we are both happy with our lives, so that neither of us feels this overwhelming pain and rage at each other? We aren't quite there yet, but we are hopeful. It feels closer than it ever has before.
As to the question of visits and mixing relationships. On the one hand, it has turned out to be true for us that the more Jennifer and Alan interact, the more we all three are comfortable together, the more each of them has felt unthreatened by the other. I think this is true, however, because in fact, I DO love both of them deeply and intensely and in very different ways, and they can feel that when they are together. They don't feel in competition, like they are "losing" my love to the other, because that just happens not to be true of me.
What Jennifer and I have isn't even in Alan's imaginings of a relationship. What Alan and I have isn't something that Jennifer wants from me. Time, energy, money -- these resources I have to divide up. But not my love, passion, dependence, or their importance to me. Perhaps if you are very passionate about your lover now, and less motivated to be close to your wife, then feeling that is bound to make her feel bad, and perhaps seeing that in front of her will be more painful than helpful.
What has been helpful for us is to be upfront about how people feel and what they want -- and not blame anyone for what they want. If your wife wants her primacy recognized by your sleeping with her, fine. If your lover will feel bad in that situation, he should say so. If you don't want to sleep with your wife with your lover in the house, then say that. If she doesn't want you to sleep with him with her in the house, then she can say so. And then you can all work out what you are able to give each other so that everyone can feel most cared for and comfortable. If not all sleeping in the same house is best, then you all decide that. If it can work out for people to feel good, then do it. But I guess I'm saying I wouldn't take the burden on yourself of figuring out what to do...let your wife and your lover also express what they want, and you express what you want, and then see what each of you can give the others in order to make this work for all of you.
This is being said by someone who is struggling to begin to try to deal with things openly, for the first time, in our triangle. We aren't very good at it yet. We keep messing up, often bigtime. We have hopes and expectations we don't express, then we get mad when they are disappointed. We do things we know will hurt each other, then act outraged when the other is hurt. We're working on it, though.
[In response to a posting about the thrill of promiscuous sex after many nears of self-control, Sean replies:]
Jerry's latest episode is a perfect example of "The more you get, the more you want and the less you are satisfied". This seems to be typical of the "Slut Phase" in particular and of casual male sex in general. Instead of satisfying needs, it creates needs. WHY?
I can only contribute my own experience. I very much felt, as you describe, that casual sexual encounters did not slack my needs from men, but intensified them. The peace was very short-lived. The next day or week, I felt desperate and "on the prowl" again. During this period, I would often say to Jennifer, "I don't get it, here I am getting exactly what I have so desperately wanted - why aren't I happy about it? What do I want from men?" And she would say "You want a man who really loves you, for who you really are."
She was right. For me, the desperation toward male sex was really a way of expressing my need for love from men. This was evident to me in that what I REALLY valued was the closeness, the access to a man's body -- if a man would hug or kiss or act tender, that mattered so much more to me than the sex per se.
Now that I have a man who loves me, and I am coming to believe it, I find male sex receding into a "normal" role in life, rather than a desperate obsession. It is just part of a love relationship, as was sex with my wife. I no longer yearn after handsome men I see on the street or at work, I am not obsessed with pornography in the same way.
It feels to me that before, I was a thirsty man and casual gay sex was like getting sips of salt water...now that I have unlimited fresh water available, water can cease to be such a big deal and I can focus on the rest of life again.
I also resonate to your statement about trying to achieve a male closeness/acceptance which was lacking in my early life. Many of the gay/bi men I've known, myself included, seem to be trying to satisfy a yearning for something they didn't have from their fathers/brothers/friends in childhood...which now gets expressed in sexual form. Worse, for some of us, because our fathers/brothers/friends WEREN'T loving/accepting of us, we tend to get involved with men who ALSO don't really love us or care about us, and then we go on fruitlessly trying to win their love/acceptance. Sometimes I feel as though in my "slut" days, I prostituted myself, using sex to get little drips and drabs of love and closeness. My lover, Alan, feels the same. I wish that our society fostered more loving, satisfying relationships among men, so that so many gay men didn't have to use casual sex as their only way of being close to other men.
Sean
[Alan, Sean's lover, introduces himself and tells about the relationship from his point of view.]
First I want to introduce myself. I'm Alan, the guy you have always heard about and never heard from. I'm a gay man who is involved with a gay/bi married man, Sean (in Manchester) and his wife Jennifer --Sean and I got involved a year and a half ago, with Jennifer's knowledge. He moved out a year ago and we have lived together for this last year. At first, I believed that Sean had left Jennifer for good, and that we would make our life together. Last October he told me that he still wanted to keep Jennifer in his life, which was a hard thing to accept-- but I'm still here. At this time, I can look back and see the gains we have made on working on this three-way relationship, and they have been many, but don't get me wrong, it hasn't been easy. There's been many fights, a lot of crying, a lot of making up, but we're all still here.
I just want to give a message to the gay married men, or gay men who are involved with gay/bi married men, out there who want to or are trying to have a serious loving relationship with a man while remaining married. If you're going to make this work, you have to keep in mind that no matter how hard it gets, no matter much you argue, that there's no leaving. So leave room in your relationship for these arguments -- if you don't, you're doomed.
Those of you who are trying to get in this situation and looking for someone to be in your life and also keep your wife, make sure this person has the heart to accept this situation. And this you should be able to tell by spending time with this person, and this is where your wife has to give you the time to do so. But if you choose a person that you think is the right guy, but haven't invested any time in this person and you're thinking with your dick, you're doomed. The way you can tell if this is the right person -- your wife has to be in on this decision-making. It may not make her feel comfortable with this person, but she will definitely feel that this person isn't too much of a threat to her.
The man in your life has to also accept your wife, and accept that this is always going to be a part of your life. If he does not want to talk about it, this is not the person. By not talking about it, he is not accepting it.
Now, those of you who have found guys and made quick decisions about how you want your life to be, you need to grow up. 1. You do not date a guy that could just about call you Daddy. 2. You do not date someone that is out of your area code. 3. You do not date just for the sex. In these relationships, quality time is very very very important. You have to know this person as well as you know yourself. Sex should NEVER be a major issue in this relationship.
In the beginning, working on bringing a man into your life as far as bringing the wife and this guy together -- one step at a time. Take it slow. Rome wasn't built in a day. (Well, mainly that's because I wasn't on the job). But seriously, if this is gonna work take it slow on both ends. Show the man that he is part of your life and will always be part of your life, and also let your wife know that she is not losing the love you have for her. This is where it gets hard for you, because you have to wear two hats, and be totally sincere, on both accounts. Because if you're not, trust me, one or the other will be able to pick up on it, and will question you to death!
Right now, where I am is working along with Jennifer and Sean to make things more even so that we both feel that we have a 50/50 relationship, but for me this is hard, because I have to give back, I have to let go, but not lose.
And from some of the letters that Sean has told me about, I am ahead of a lot of you, and still got some catching up to do with some of you. So -- those of you that I have to catch up with -- can you give me any help? I look forward to hearing from you. And those of you who I'm ahead of...if I can help, let me know. Look forward to hearing from you.
Alan