Making Dua TO Prophet peace be upon him

IQBAL : My understanding is, we cannot make a dua to the holy prophet [may Allah's peace and blessing be upon him] at his grave (or outside) e.g. one cannot say 'Oh Prophet of Allah grant me so and so...'

[ http://abuaasia.blogspot.com/2009/12/making-dua-to-holy-prophet-halal-or.html ]

Is this the correct understanding?

Everything in Ibadaat (worship) needs daleel and anything and everything is prohibited unless its proven from Quran,Sunnah, or Ijma Sahaba. i.e. something cannot be added by individual coz he thinks its good.

And for Ma'omlaat everything is halal unless explicitely prohibited otherwise i.e. opposite of the above.

With this rule, now dua is an act of worship and therefore falls into the first category above.

Now since you think that asking the prophet of Allah (may Allah's peace and blessing be upon him) is allowed, the onus lies on you to prove that its from a daleel

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Auzubillahi Minashaytanir rajeem, Bismillah Hir Rehmanir Raheem,

The objection on making DUA is Done for Several reasons by Wahabi sect, since you say you dont belong to WAHABI completely , i am not sure which of the reasons you think , which stops you to ask from Prophet peace be upon him .. so i will list all known objections and their answers

Objection reason 1 : Everything in Ibadaat (worship) needs daleel and anything and everything is prohibited unless its proven from Quran,Sunnah

Here Everything should be understood as a Classification and not every ACT possible by HUMAN

to explain : If i have 20000 euro in my bank account for a year , i should be paying zakat , i would not argue that i did not get money in my hand and it was not physically with me for 1 year and its just a number on screen

same way we need not prove evidence for paying charity by pay pal is halal in islam - its classification would be Spending for SAKE OF ALLAH , and the channel may be whatever ..

Making Dua to prophet peace be upon him falls under the category: ATTAINING HELP FROM THE PROPHETS(peace be upon them) AND SAINTS.

Answer to Objection 1

Asking the Prophet and Saints for assistance is permissible when it is believed that the help is actually from Allah عزوجل Himself, and that these personalities are merely the reflections of His assistance. Muslims ascribe to this belief alone and there is no ignorant person who deems a Saint to be Allah

There are Quranic verses, Ahadith-e-Shaheeha, rulings of the Jurists, Muhadditheen as well as the opposition in proof of asking for help from someone besides Allah

If you have issues or want proofs for Asking help from Gairullah , i will provide that .. i will not go in details for issues not raised

[Maidah 5:55] You do not have any friends except Allah and His Noble Messenger and the believers who establish the prayer and pay the charity, and are bowed down before Allah.

It is known from this that Allah عزوجل, the Rubb, is your Helper, as well as Muslims to each other.

SO Quran does identify Gairullah as helpers and also says ONLY Allah is Helper(Surah Fateha) : what we understand fromt his is

However, Allah عزوجل is the direct (biz-zaat) Helper while the Muslims are indirect helpers.

Reference from Tafsir (hadis):

وَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللَّهَ تَوَّاباً رَّحِيماً

Translation: We sent not an apostle, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.(4:64)

1. Imam Ibn Kathir (rahmatullahitalaaly) on Tawassul on above Ayah:

وقد ذكر جماعة منهم الشيخ أبو منصور الصباغ في كتابه الشامل الحكاية المشهورة عن العتبي قال : كنت جالسا عند قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فجاء أعرابي فقال : السلام عليك يا رسول الله سمعت الله يقول " ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما " وقد جئتك مستغفرا لذنبي مستشفعا بك إلى ربي ثم أنشأ يقول : يا خير من دفنت بالقاع أعظمه فطاب من طيبهن القاع والأكم نفسي الفداء لقبر أنت ساكنه فيه العفاف وفيه الجود والكرم ثم انصرف الأعرابي فغلبتني عيني فرأيت النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم في النوم فقال : يا عتبي الحق الأعرابي فبشره أن الله قد غفر له " .

Translation: Many have stated this tradition. One of them is Abu Mansur Sabbagh who writes in his book Al-Hikayat-ul-mashhurah that, according to ‘Utbi, once he was sitting beside the Prophet’s grave when a bedouin came and he said, “Peace be on you, O Allah’s Messenger. I have heard that Allah says: ‘(O beloved!) And if they had come to you, when they had wronged their souls, and asked forgiveness of Allah, and the Messenger also had asked forgiveness for them, they (on the basis of this means and intercession) would have surely found Allah the Granter of repentance, extremely Merciful.’ I have come to you, asking forgiveness for my sins and I make you as my intermediary before my Lord and I have come to you for this purpose.” Then he recited these verses: “O, the most exalted among the buried people who improved the worth of the plains and the hillocks! May I sacrifice my life for this grave which is made radiant by you, (the Prophet,) the one who is (an embodiment) of mercy and forgiveness.” Then the bedouin went away and I fell asleep. In my dream I saw the Holy Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him). He said to me: O ‘Utbi, the bedouin is right, go and give him the good news that Allah has forgiven his sins.

[Ibn Kathir, Tafsir-ul-Qur'an al-azim Volume 004, Page No. 140, Under the Verse 4:64]

2.Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti in "Dur al-Manthur":

والسيوطي في الدر المنثور (١/٥٧٠-٢٣)

" وأخرج البيهقي عن أبي حرب الهلالي قال : حج أعرابي إلى باب مسجد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أناخ راحلته فعقلها ثم دخل المسجد حتى أتى القبر ووقف بحذاء وجه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : بأبي أنت وأمي يا رسول الله جئتك مثقلا بالذنوب والخطايا مستشفعا بك على ربك لأنه قال في محكم تنزيله ولو إنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما

so I have come to you asking forgiveness for my sin, seeking your intercession with my Lord. Then he began to recite poetry:

"O best of those who are buried in deep"

"And from whose fragrance the depth and the height have become sweet"

"May I be the ransom for a grave which thou inhabit"

"And in which are found purity, bounty and munificence!"

Then he left, and I dozed and saw the Prophet in my sleep. He said to me: O `Utbi, run after the Bedouin and give him glad tidings that Allah has forgiven him."[Tafsir al Quran al Azim Under Surah an Nisa Verse 64]

The happening of the bedouin has been recorded by the following:

1. Bayhaqi in Shu‘ab-ul-Imaan (3:495-6#4178).

2. Ibn Qudamah in al-Mughni (3:557).

3. Ibn ‘Asakir in Tahdhīb tarikh Dimashq al-kabir popularly known as Tarikh/Tahdhib Ibn ‘Asakir as quoted by Imam as-Subki in Shifa’-us-siqam fī ziyaat khayr-il-anam (pp. 46-7).

4. Ibn Hajar Haythami in al-Jawhar-ul-munazzam (p. 51).

And many others, plus none of these Imams called it shirk or Bidah.

3. Imam Qurtubi (rahmatullahitalaaly) on Tawassul:

روى أبو صادق عن علي قال : قدم علينا أعرابي بعدما دفنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بثلاثة أيام , فرمى بنفسه على قبر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وحثا على رأسه من ترابه ; فقال : قلت يا رسول الله فسمعنا قولك , ووعيت عن الله فوعينا عنك , وكان فيما أنزل الله عليك " ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم " الآية , وقد ظلمت نفسي وجئتك تستغفر لي . فنودي من القبر إنه قد غفر لك .

Its related from Abu Sadiq (raziallhutalaanhu) that Imam Ali (raziallhutalaanhu) said: "Three days after burying the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) arab did came and did throw himself on the grave of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him), took the earth and throw it on his head. He said: "Ya Rasulallah! (Peace Be Upon Him) You did speak and we did hear, you learned from Allah and we did learn from you. Between those things which Allah did send you, is following: (4:64) I am the one, which is a sinner and now I did came to you, so that you may ask for me." After that a call from the grave did came: "Theres no doubt, you are forgiven!"

[Tafsir al-Qurtubi, al-Jami li Ahkam al-Quran Volume 006, Page No. 439, Under the Verse, 4:64]

I mentioned 3 references of Classical scholars[Imam Ibn Kathir, Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti,Imam Qurtubi rehmatullaalayajmaeen] all these 3 you had mentioned in your rules of Daleel all of these had belief that we can ask and also demonstrate the acknowledgement of answered dua

These proofs should answer and be enough as it as per the names you Agree to, this is not the ONLY proof for the sake of not making it a long essay i have just put 1 which should answer 2 questions ASKING and ASKING AFTER Prophet peace be upon him going behind viels .

Objection reason 2 : Help was legal During Worldy Life time of prophet peace be upon him and its not valid now(maazallah)

you did not object for this reason , at least as per your text but this is an objection used by wahabi's so i am listing it here

The Proof given above is an answer to both Objections ... but still there is one thing to be understood here is what do AHle Sunnat believe about Death of prophets (peace be upon him), so this an additional information which should be known in this subject

A great Scholar of the Ahl as-Sunnah wa’l Jama, Sayyid Ahmad Sa’eed Shah Kaazmi, writes:

'The one who states that the Soul of the Prophet, (May Allah bless him and grant him peace), was not taken and he never died, is a Kafir and is out of the circle of Islam.

[Hayaat-un-Nabi, p8 by Sayyid Ahmad Sa’eed Shah Kaazmi]

Shaykh ul Makkah, Shaykh Alawi says that the meaning of the Anbiya (Prophets) passing away, means that they have been taken away from us and we cannot see them just like the Angels are.

(Mafaheem page 165 by Shaykh Alawi Malki).

In this subject of Discussion it is very important that one know very clearly what is the stand of Ahl as-Sunnah wa’l Jama

[Zumar 39:27] And We have indeed illustrated examples of all kinds in this Qur’an, so that they may ponder.

[Zumar 39:28] The Qur’an in Arabic, having no deviation at all, so that they may be pious.

[Zumar 39:29] Allah illustrates an example - “A man having several wicked masters as partners, and another man belonging wholly to just one master; are the two equal in comparison?” All praise is to Allah; in fact, most among them do not know.

[Zumar 39:30] Indeed you (O dear Prophet Mohammed – peace and blessings be upon him) will taste death, and they (the disbelievers) too will die.

(Are the two equal in similitude) are the disbeliever and believer equal? what is also explained is hierarchy

As mentioned in (Verse number 29) the condition of two persons to be different, similarly the death of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) is not same like others death. There is great difference between the conditions and the levels of both. This example was given because of this reason that equality to the respect of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) (Shan-e-Nabuwah) should be condemned completely

[Baqarah 2:154] And do not utter regarding those who are slain in Allah's cause as "dead"; in fact they are alive, but it is you who are unaware.

Of course, it goes without saying that the position of the Prophets (عليه السلام) is above and beyond the status of those who are martyred in Allah's way. This, however, implicates that he (صلى الله عليه وسلم) is alive too.

AND this same belief is in synch with hadis

Hadith #1

عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِکٍ رضي الله عنه أَنَّ رَسُوْلَ اﷲِ صلي الله عليه وآله وسلم قَالَ : أَتَيْتُ، (وفي رواية هدّاب:) مَرَرْتُ عَلَي مُوْسَي لَيْلَةَ أُسْرِيَ بِي عِنْدَ الْکَثِيْبِ الْأَحْمَرِ وَهُوَ قَائِمٌ يُصَلِّي فِي قَبْرِه

Anas b. malik reported

Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) as saying: I came. And in the narration transmitted on the authority of Haddib (the words are): I happened to pass by Moses (عليه السلام) on the occasion of the Night journey near the red mound (and found him) saying his prayer in his Grave.

[Sahih Muslim Book 030, Number 5858:]

Hadith #2

عن ‏ ‏أبي الدرداء ‏ ‏قال ‏قال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أكثروا الصلاة علي يوم الجمعة فإنه مشهود تشهده الملائكة وإن أحدا لن يصلي علي إلا عرضت علي صلاته حتى يفرغ منها قال قلت وبعد الموت قال وبعد الموت إن الله حرم على الأرض أن تأكل أجساد الأنبياء فنبي الله حي يرزق

Narrated on the authority of Abu Darda:

Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said, "Invoke many blessings on me on Friday for it is witnessed. The angels are present on it, and no one will invoke a blessing on me without his blessing being submitted to me till he stops." I asked whether that applied also after his death, and he replied, "Allah has prohibited the Earth from consuming the bodies of the prophets; so Allah's prophet is alive and given provision.

[Sunan Ibn Maja Volume 001: Hadith Number 1627]

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Explanation of Hadis

Narrated Anas: Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah ! Bless us with rain." And so it would rain.

(Bukhari Volume 2, Book 17, Number 123)

IQBAL SAYS :" So you see, Umar (radi allahu anhu) could have well gone to the grave of Allah's Prophet and asked there.

As far as I know this was the understanding of the companions of the prophet sal allahhu alaihe wassalam. "

Answer :

The scholars have explained that `Umar Radiallahtaalaanhu sought the means of al-`Abbas Radiallahtaalaanhu rather than the Prophet Sallallahoalaihiwasallam in order to show and acknowledge the status of the Prophet's uncle among the people and, more generally, of the Ahl al-Bayt or direct relatives of the Prophet Sallallahoalaihiwasallam Al-Kawthari in his Maqalat (p. 411) cites Ibn `Abd al-Barr's commentary in al-Isti`ab that `Umar Radiallahtaalaanhu al-`Abbas Radiallahtaalaanhu response to Ka`b's words

Al-Suyuti Alairehma mentions the context of this event in his Tarikh al-Khulafa' (Beirut, 1992 Ahmad Fares ed. p. 140):

Ok, There is concept in usul al fiqh which I follow:

All actions of ibadah(ritual acts of worship) are haraam unless there is specific proof in the Quran and/or Sunnah to legalize it.

All actions of muamalaat(daily life activities) are permissible unless there is specific proof in the Quran and/or Sunnah to make it haraam, makrooh, mustahabb or fard.

SIR we can also read this , that you are making some Rules since you are writing it (IF ABU ASIA AND IQBAL are same person )but since we are talking about ISLAM what you think is of no importance , YOU have to give DALEEL from Quran and Sunnah

IQBAL DON'T ADOPT A STUBBORN APPROACH , for every single thing ..and please Dont play the card of i am not convinced , i am still not convinced , i am confused , - AS I SAID I AM NOT HERE TO CONVINCE YOU , i am here to present FACTS with PROOFS :

to make sense from proofs it takes intelligence and prerequisite knowledge

wahabi can say : i dont find sunni proofs Valid and Sunni will say the same THIS goes to an infinite LOOP

SO BOTH SIDES PRESENT FACTS with proofs reasons and logic . don't try to push it under others THROAT , it is senseless to expect or try

Untill now you have

1.MADE YOUR OWN RULE : EVERY THING IS HARAM unless allowed : GIVE REFERENCE FOR THIS from Quran and Sunaah

2.YOU Said WEAK : with no Support of any reference

3.came up with yet another Wierd rule quote a weak hadith for informational purposes only but not necessarily as a criteria for action with again no reference

4.We asked for your explanation of your understanding why do you think we cannot ask ?--- NOTHING YET from your side

5.We gave refernce of Mufassir of your choice , rules made by you and now you are haggling on where did he say IT IS ALLOWED - why should he write that he was not writing "TAFSIR only for DUMMIES " , on the AYAT saying GO TO prophet (peace be upon him )and ASK TO him he gives this hadis WHAT ELSE IT MEANS !!!

WHAT IS NOW NEEDED FROM YOU

YOUR EXPLANATION of WHY WE CANNOT ASK TO Prophet peace be upon him ANY reason you think BUT WITH REFERENCE from QURAN AND SUNNAH

References of your created ISLAMIC Rules from Quran and SUNNAH

We are not going any further before this

I GUESS MODERATOR WOULD AGREE TO THIS,

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January 24 2010

Amin claims to say that Dua can made to the Prophet [may Allah's peace and blessing be upon him] directly (not talking about Tawassul here). So I think his claim is adding something new to the Ibaadat and therefore he should have a proof and not me

Yes AMIN claims so and his claim is not based on His thought like your case "So I think his claim..." his claim is backed by

QURAN , Sunnah , IJMA of Classical Scholars which is already documented in the first post

My initial idea was not to bombard the discussion with MANY hadis but give few so that things are better understood with less reading Still i see ASKING TO is Objected thinking Biddat

Hadis :

Chapter : Miskin (poor man) is one who does not find enough to satisfy him and the people do not consider him(needy) as to give him charity.

http://www.guidedways.com/book_display-book-5-translator-2-start-120-number-2254.htm

'The Book of Zakat (Kitab Al-Zakat)' of Sahih Muslim.

Mu'awiya said: Be cautious about ahadith except those which were current during the reign of Umar, for he exhorted people to fear Allah, the Exalted and majestic. I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: He upon whom Allah intends to bestow goodness, He confers upon him an insight in religion; and I heard the Messenger of Allah (way peace be upon him) as saying: I am the treasurer. To one whom I give out of (my own) sweet will, he would be blessed in that, but he whom I give (yielding to his constant begging and for his covetousness is like one who would eat, but would not be satisfied.

This Hadis proves Prophet peace be upon him distributes

Chapter : The time when the prophet peacebeuponhim used to get up at night for prayer.

Narated By Rabi'ah b, Ka'b al-Aslami : I used to live with the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) at night; I would bring water for his ablution and his need. He said: Ask me. I said: Your company is in Paradise. He said: Is there anything other than that? I said: It is only that. He said: Help me for yourself by making prostration abundantly.

This hadis proves from prophet peace be upon him himself who says ASK ME

and Sahabi Rasoolsallahoalihiwasallam ASKS for Companionship in PARADISE

which means Jannat with Companionship !!! asked TO Prophet peace be upon him ....

For an example If I were to claim that after fajr salah standing on one foot, facing Moon and making dua to Allah is an act of worship then I need to provide evidence of my claim THIS HAS NO SENSE when Making DUA to ALLAH is a form of worship, and there is no binding of how you can do it , Standing , Sitting , on one foot etc then you dont need to provide proof for things like CAN YOU MAKE DUA from Airplane standing on One foot ?

IF MAKING DUA is proved Valid nothing else need to be proved - this is not very complex to understand you are trying to get Biddat into this , does not make sense because Biddat does not apply here since the act of DUA is not BOUND by specifics of when where and NOT to prophet peace be upon him

and we gave proof of Making DUA AT Grave TO Prophet peace be upon him from Muffasir you asked for ALL THREE !!!

Ok, now the evidence Amin has provided is from the tafsir of Ibn Kathir. Now I verified this evidence from the book of Tafsir and its different in the english version, which we both understand.

..... So your tafsir doesn’t seem from Ibn Kathir, so it’s from what source?

YOU DID NOT DO PROPER HOME WORK , I request you to do your research with more responsibility and justice.. The proof we gave is from The Book of Tafsir of IBNE Khatir which was in Arabic i.e the text as he wrote WHen you Choose to go to ENGLISH this is against YOUR own rules , since this translation is not done by Classical Scholars the entire issue of Only Classical scholars was to arrive at WHO is right WAHABI or SUNNI in their beliefs HOW CAN YOU BE SURE if those who translated did not inject their wahabi beliefs or modify it or did right translation .. IT seems that when given the SOURCE and Translated version you Strangely opt for translated !!!

your English version is also available online Scan of that was not needed .. put that effort in sourcing his original work and scan that. The only thing is this English version is NOT COMPLETE its a compact verision of original work , and i will prove this from your own reference

..... So your tafsir doesn’t seem from Ibn Kathir, so it’s from what source? IT IS for your incomplete research and WRONG assumption i have to waste time here to prove that even the source of Ibne khatir you are looking has it and i have to spend time proving the content exist rather than what the content proves

Regarding proof : we gave more than one proof and extracts from more than 1 tafsir of those whom you approved all pointing THIS SAME INCIDENT of ASKING TO PROPHET peace be upon him at GRAVE THIS PROVES ASKING TO and ASKING TO AT GRAVE I dont understand why you are differentiating TAWASSUL i explained classification in the first reply itself I SEE THAT YOU PICKED up ENGLISH translation of hadis from guidedways.com and if you see the Arabic Tafsir of Ibne Khatir you will see this Hadis which ibne khatir wrote to explain the ayat http://www.guidedways.com/tafsir/tafsir.php?chapter=4&verse=64&tafsir=0&submit=Display

يَقُول تَعَالَى " وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُول إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ " أَيْ فُرِضَتْ طَاعَته عَلَى مَنْ أُرْسِلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَقَوْله " بِإِذْنِ اللَّه " قَالَ مُجَاهِد : أَيْ لَا يُطِيع أَحَد إِلَّا بِإِذْنِي يَعْنِي لَا يُطِيعهُ إِلَّا مَنْ وَفَّقْته لِذَلِكَ قَوْله " وَلَقَدْ صَدَقَكُمْ اللَّه وَعْده إِذْ تَحُسُّونَهُمْ بِإِذْنِهِ " أَيْ عَنْ أَمْره وَقَدَره وَمَشِيئَته وَتَسْلِيطه إِيَّاكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَقَوْله " وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسهمْ " الْآيَة يُرْشِد تَعَالَى الْعُصَاة وَالْمُذْنِبِينَ إِذَا وَقَعَ مِنْهُمْ الْخَطَأ وَالْعِصْيَان أَنْ يَأْتُوا إِلَى الرَّسُول صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَيَسْتَغْفِرُوا اللَّه عِنْده وَيَسْأَلُوهُ أَنْ يَسْتَغْفِر لَهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ إِذَا فَعَلُوا ذَلِكَ تَابَ اللَّه عَلَيْهِمْ وَرَحِمَهُمْ وَغَفَرَ لَهُمْ وَلِهَذَا قَالَ " لَوَجَدُوا اللَّه تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا " وَقَدْ ذَكَرَ جَمَاعَة مِنْهُمْ الشَّيْخ أَبُو مَنْصُور الصَّبَّاغ فِي كِتَابه الشَّامِل الْحِكَايَة الْمَشْهُورَة عَنْ الْعُتْبِيّ قَالَ : كُنْت جَالِسًا عِنْد قَبْر النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَجَاءَ أَعْرَابِيّ فَقَالَ : السَّلَام عَلَيْك يَا رَسُول اللَّه سَمِعْت اللَّه يَقُول " وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسهمْ جَاءُوك فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّه وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمْ الرَّسُول لَوَجَدُوا اللَّه تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا " وَقَدْ جِئْتُك مُسْتَغْفِرًا لِذَنْبِي مُسْتَشْفِعًا بِك إِلَى رَبِّي ثُمَّ أَنْشَأَ يَقُول : يَا خَيْر مَنْ دُفِنَتْ بِالْقَاعِ أَعْظُمه فَطَابَ مِنْ طِيبهنَّ الْقَاع وَالْأَكَم نَفْسِي الْفِدَاء لِقَبْرٍ أَنْتَ سَاكِنه فِيهِ الْعَفَاف وَفِيهِ الْجُود وَالْكَرَم ثُمَّ اِنْصَرَفَ الْأَعْرَابِيّ فَغَلَبَتْنِي عَيْنِي فَرَأَيْت النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَآله وَسَلَّمَ فِي النَّوْم فَقَالَ : يَا عُتْبِيّ الْحَقْ الْأَعْرَابِيّ فَبَشِّرْهُ أَنَّ اللَّه قَدْ غَفَرَ لَهُ " .

.... stated a group of them Shaykh Abu Mansoor Sabbagh in his book the complete story of the famous threshold said: "I was sitting at the tomb of the Prophet peace be upon him Bedouin came and said: Peace be upon you O Messenger of God I heard God say .....

why did you just BANK on some ones English Translation !!!! it is like a blind man depends on some one with eyes assuming what he says he right and the knowledge man of blind is As accurate as HE WAS TAUGHT by.

THIS SAME HADIS to EXPLAIN THE SAME AYAT which says ASK TO Prophet peace be upon him , ALL three Mufassirs

IMAM IBNE KHATIR , IMAM QURTUBI , UMAM JALALUDDIN SUYUTI gave THIS SAME kind of HADIS to explain that AYAT i.e going to Grave And Asking TO ....

When a Mufasir gives an Hadis to explain the ayat he believes in that , a Mufassir DONT Forge any FALSE incident to explain QURAN !!!!

The Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said, “I am the one who distributes and Almighty Allah is the One who gives.”

(Bukhari; Umdatul Qari)

What is pending from:

Explanation of your RULE that "..and everything is prohibited unless its proven from Quran,Sunnah.." and

if you dont explain this from quran and sunnah( you may do that on email ) then this rule becomes void since we dont take manmade rules

Answer regarding the Subject

YOUR Answer of Biddat with reference to this is totally irrelevant and that is explained ,if this is why you think one should not ask then seek ulemas advise and understand Biddat from BOTH Ulema who tags every thing they dont like as SHIRK AND BIDDAT and Sunni Ulema who whos what applies where

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January 26 2010

NOW on this you are Objecting that they never said it is permitted !!!!

And then i see that YOU are insisting on the "IN HIS PRESENCE " which you verified from your ARABIC speaking friend , did he not read the start of his explanation ? DID he start from HIS PRESENCE ?

Point 1: AYAT does not END after saying IN HIS PRESENCE it continues to say ask him to supplicate to Allah, ASK HIM is against your Objection , because ALLAH tells us TO ASK HIM

Point 2: There was no need to verify IN HIS PRESENCE ,since this was never Objected by us, INFACT you will find this same text was posted by me when i pasted from ibne Khatirs online version, so please read throughly it will save your time for verifying things which are already said in Jan 21st reply .

objection was from you to ASK TO prophet peace be upon him at his grave (or outside) , so i dont see any breaking news in your verification and what do you think we ignored Conveniently ??? THAT when we ask Prophet peace be upon him , it is actually Allah who is going to FORGIVE ?(I need your confirmation here )

SO you said we cannot ask at his GRAVE - now in HIS PRESENCE, Actually is for you to read that there is indeed A VALID PROOF FROM QURAN THAT going to his GRAVE is permitted

Point 3: we had given 2 more hadis which i see that you have nothing to say about , which says Clearly ASK ME , this was said by prophet peace be upon him himself and Companion did not object saying why cant i ask ALLAH .. since he was a SAHABI and not WAHABI

Chapter : The time when the prophet peacebeuponhim used to get up at night for prayer.

Narated By Rabi'ah b, Ka'b al-Aslami : I used to live with the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) at night; I would bring water for his ablution and his need. He said: Ask me. I said: Your company is in Paradise. He said: Is there anything other than that? I said: It is only that. He said: Help me for yourself by making prostration abundantly.

This hadis proves from prophet peace be upon him himself who says ASK ME

and Sahabi Rasoolsallahoalihiwasallam ASKS for Companionship in PARADISE

which means Jannat with Companionship !!! asked TO Prophet peace be upon him ....

4) Now coming back to the hadith, yes it is present in the arabic version of Ibn Kathir (may Allah have mercy on him) and yes I opted for the translated version (since that’s the language I understand), perhaps you should start providing all evidence in Arabic instead of just this one.

From the hadith you seem to conclude the ruling "now this Bedouin has done this so the ruling is we should start making the dua to the Messenger of Allah at his grave"

That’s not how it works, an usul (ruling) is derived from lot of sources e.g. in this case for argument sake lets say this hadith is correct then one needs to see what was the understanding of the Sahaba in this matter what was their Ijma, is there any evidence of any Companions themselves doing this act of going to the grave and asking To the Prophet (may peace be upon him. You have not provided any, so their understanding supports what I understand not yours.

Also what is the source of this hadith of Utbi? We agreed all hadith to be from 6 books so provide me this hadith from those sources, can you?

I see you have quoted some new hadith but its still doesn't provide the answer to the question, nor does it say that the companions used to (may Allah have mercy on them) made dua to the holy prophet [peace and mercy be upon him] at his grave.

First tell me when you said

1) Daleel only from Quran (Tafsir only of classical scholars i.e. Ibn Kathir, al-Qurtubi, Tafsir al-Tabari, Suyuti - may Allah have mercy on all of them)

next was

2) Daleel only from the Sunnah - 6 universally accepted authentic hadith books

So what did you mean by TAFSIR only by classical scholars ?

The way your are responding to their TAFSIR it seems like you DONT ACCPEPT their explanation or the Hadis they give ? then why you need their tafseer , translation you have it anyway. WHAT FOR YOU READ TAFSIR, when you don't accept its content ???

I did not get that hadis from my personal Diary - HAFID IBNE KHATIR presented that hadis

IMAM QURTUBI presented the Hadis

IMAM SUYUTI presented the Hadis

TO REMIND YOU WHAT IS IJMA : it DOES not mean the WORD IJMA should be existing in the content , what it means that . they all agree on same belief so you can see all three mentioned going TO GRAVE and ASKING TO. So consensus (IJMA ) of classical Scholars is proved

you Mentioned IJMA of SAHABA : i gave another Hadis in which Companion raziallhutalanhu ASKED for Companionship in JANNAT TO prophet peace be upon him .. and i told this in very beginning i will not list all existing hadis BUT a FEW . WHEN i gave few you seem so uncomfortable , again and again asking and taunting of COPY PASTING !!!! what would happen if i present a book full of these kind of hadis ? As a student of ISLAM your concern should be to focus on Content and if it had valid references not the technology behind content , thats my JOB how do i arrive at content .

[for your information as per your own rules you have listed Daleel only from Quran Sunnah(6books) and IJMA , day to day life activities of around 1 Lac and/or more companions raziallhutalajmaeen is not covered in these 6 books or in tafseer this information exists in the branch of Asmaurrijaal and its books , what we get from tafseer is the conclusion of IJMA of Sahabas ]

5) You have quoted "When a Mufasir gives an Hadis to explain the ayat he believes in that , a Mufassir DONT Forge any FALSE incident to explain QURAN !!!!"

Do you know Tabari (may Allah have mercy on him) has mentioned the event of satanic versus in his book and mentioned if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us.

So one doesn't start believing in satanic versus. Its for information purpose that this incident occurred.

IQBAL please read with your eyes open and apply some common sense . you have yourself answered your own objection !! he writes already that this is false he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein so when some thing WRONG is written, it is not written with praise it is documented its wrong ...

We are not going into detail of praying where or in fornt of what is Makrooh and what ruling says this is makhrooh .. WE are talking specifics here GOING TO GRAVE AND ASKING for which we have given ample proofs

Muslims are permitted to pray anywhere, excluding filthy or impure places such as toilets or in graveyards.Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, said, “The entire earth was made a masjid for me” Saheeh Al-Bukhari. Me is taken to mean - my nation.

So your objection that every Location has to permitted - is also answered by this Hadis

NOW i put this question back to you

WHAT if while praying you have a WALL of your own house ?

what if there is Dining table in front of you while praying ?

What if there are inifinite objects(to list) in front of you none of which are ALLAH

WORSHIP IS ONLY FOR ALLAH And kaba is also a STONE Building we dont face that and Pray because KABA is ALLAH or its Direction is ALLAH

are you going to find YES this OBJECT IS ALLOWED in QURAN or Sunnah or IJMA !!!!!

Speaking of IJMA when i see in this thread it self and every one can see , that untill now you did not even have access to original books of tasfir and DID NOT KNOW that the ENGLISH tafseer you are reading is incomplete you accused me for that saying So your tafsir doesn’t seem from Ibn Kathir, so it’s from what source?

reading entire hadis with its context and sharah is further ahead

and reading what were the acts of people of that time (IJMA) is still far -

HOW DID YOU ARRIVE that it is not IJMA when you did not even read through TAFSIR ?

Mufassir and hadis both state they used to ASK to Prophet peace be upon him

The issue here is what does he mean by du`a? If he means prayer, then no Muslim will disagree that it is kufr to make du`a to the dead. If, however, the meaning of du`a here is simply calling, without any sense of worship to the person called, then this is another matter.

Should someone claim that every du’a is worship then how would they understand the following verse in the Holy Qur’an:

لاَّ تَجْعَلُواْ دُعَآءَ الرَّسُولِ بَيْنَكُمْ كَدُعَآءِ بَعْضِكُمْ بَعْضاً

“Make not the addressing (du’a’) of the Prophet among you like your addressing one another…”

So basically we cannot interpret du`a to mean worship in every context. A call without worshiping the called upon is just a call, and it is not shirk. Moreover, calling a person who has died is done every day in every single one of the 5 daily prayers, where a Muslim says, “Ya Ayyuhan-Nabi,” i.e. “O Prophet!” Clearly then, calling a person who has died is not an import of late Sufism.