06 Ponds related to Phelps
James Pond/Pawns/Pounds of Mecklenburg Co, VA, b ca 1766,
Lineages displayed here were provided by individual ydna kit members, or their representatives, who are solely responsible for providing any ethical or copyright credits..
1/2018 While previous comment recorded below discussed the "mystery" of of the Pond/Phelps relationship, a logical analysis of SNPs and Strs pointed to a conclusion. Because this line has the A6108 SNP and common STRs of the Albemarle Phelps, a logical conclusion is it descended from a Phelps who first had the mutated SNP A6108. That would be William Phelps d. 1749. See the Thomas d. 1751 Albemarle section on the LEFT.
This page includes the report, "THE RELATIONSHIP OF ONE BRANCH OF PONDS WITH THE E1A1 M44 PHELPS OF COLONIAL AMERICA".
To view Pond project link to the Pond yDNA project at this site
Topics on this page
Lineage of two yDNA Ponds
11/2017 Analysis of Pond Unique SNPs tested by several A6108 Phelps
THE RELATIONSHIP OF ONE BRANCH OF PONDS WITH THE E1A1 M44 PHELPS OF COLONIAL AMERICA.
The Pond/Phelps Issue of Caswell Co, NC
The Ponds/Phelps with A6108
Further explanation on the Pond/Phelps Caswell Issue
Downloadable files of research
Lineages of three yDNA Ponds
As of 2016 ,yDNA SNPs became the determining factor for analysis. They are provided further down this page. For the typical STR research of FTDNA provided STRs of three Ponds and the related Phelps, refer to the summary ydna table here
Yellow below indicates uncertainty
Green indicates triangulation using ydna
0. Walter Pond 1728-1785 Caswell tax records 1782 No land, 2 white polls, valuation 200a; 1783 Only shows one poll; 1784 No land, 2 white polls, valuation 200 SEE the downloadable file below "Pond Research Lou Poole".
1. Was John Pond of Caswell a brother to James below? See Lou Poole's suggestion. Poole claims Benjamin below was his son. Apparent descendant is a kit 87578 of a different Haplogroup at the Pond yDNA Project.. .
1. James Pawns/Pond/Pounds(?) b: c1766 Mecklenberg CO, VA d: 1847 Robertson CO, TN. m. Elizabeth Stansbury 16 Jan 1786 Caswell co Marriage Bonds 1778-1868 1790 Caswell Census includes a John Ponds MOved to TB after 1800 See NOTE 1
2. Benjamin Pond b. 1780 NC Now considered not to be James son. See Note 2 below ) . Descendant 87578 See this 87578 lineage in Note 4 below Haplogroup R1b
2. Elijah
2. Richard
2. James Jr.
2. William Pond b: 1788 Caswell CO, NC d: c1851 McNairy CO, TN
3. John Marion Pond b: c1811 McNairy CO, TN , d: unknown. m Isabella Spencer See TN 1850 census. From here up kit 84685 agreed to rely on kit 32125's genealogy Triangulated to deduce BY22797 Pos
4. James Irvin Pond b cir 1835 TN., d 8-20-1902 Missouri m.. Rebecca Jane Meek 5-15-1859 original family Bible for James Irvin Pond is in the possession of the museum in Maynard Arkansas
| 5. Samuel Adam Pond, b 12-24-1866 Maynard, AR., d 12-22-1944 Granville, Putnam County, IL m. Essie Ricketts 6-15-1895) in, Champaign County, IL
| 6. Sylvester Irvin Pond b 4-3-1896, Pesotum, Champaign Co., IL d. 3-26-1980 Streator, LaSalle Co., IL , m. Florence Irene urtis
| 7. Son, living
| Kit 84685 DYS439=12 Positive SNP A6108 SNPs BY22797 Positive BY22794.5,6 Neg
4. Joseph Marion Pond b: 1837 McNairy CO, TN d: 1895 Ripley CO, MO m. Elizaabeth Meek (sister to Rebecca above)
5. Robert Marion Pond (ca 1871) Poynor, MO m California Ator Kit 164456 Haplogroup M44, NOT A MEMBER DYS439=13
5. George Washington Pond b: 1866 Ripley CO, MO d: 1951 Stephenville, TX
6. John Alvin Pond b: 1888 Ripley CO, MO d: 1934 Labette CO, KS
Kit 32125 DYS439=13 Positive SNP A6108 SNPs BY22794 ,5, 6, 7 Positive
NOTE 1 From JP Pond Rand 2005: The Pond family began in England, one of them coming to VA in late 1600’s. Then one of the sons, James Pond, ended up in Caswell. James married Elizabeth Stansbury on 16 Jan 1786 in Caswell. They had 9 children including 4 boys. Sometime between 1796 and 1802, the family moved to Sumner County, TN and some to Robertson County, TN
Note 2: 12/2017 JP Rand reports Benjamin has been found to be in error. Previous info: according to the Pond ydna site (Kit 87578 ) See this link for source information but now invalid. This kit cannot be of the same biological line as the Ponds shown below due to this kit being an entirely different Haplogroup. However if Benjamin was a son as shown above, then there was a NPE at some point, most likely in William Pond, or John Marion Pond
Note 3
The below lineage (reformatted) is from the Pond Ydna project He is NOT a member of our project 12/2017
1 Walter Pond (?) Lunenburg, VA
2 James Pond (ca 1766) Mecklenburg, VA, m Elizabeth Stansbury
3. William Pond (ca 1787) Richmond, NC, m Elizabeth Rice This may be Richmond Tax district of Caswell CO, NC and not Richland Co, NC
4. John Marion Pond (ca 1817) Gallatin, TN m. Isabella Spencer
5. Joseph Marion Pond (ca 1837) Purdy, TN m Elizabeth Meek
6. Robert Marion Pond (ca 1871) Poynor, MO m California Ator
7. John McNary Pond (ca 1901) Poynor, MO m Cecil Helms
Kit 164456 - pondscum08 AT yahoo.com DYS439=13
Note 4
Benjamin Pond b. 1780 NC m.Milley Swan 1807 Caswell Co, NC marriage records Last seen in Caswell in 1812 To RObertson CO, TN, to Sumner Co, TN, d. Robertson Co, TN bef 1850 (12/2017 MAY not be valid since descendant is of the wrong Haplogroup. See Note 2 below ) children:Richard, James, Edward, John, William, and Benjamin (Poole's internet source). See Lou Pooole's "Pond Family , CH. 11 in the downloadable file below.) Lou Poole strongly suggests Benjamin was a son of John Pond.
0. John Pond
1. Benjamin Pond b. 1780 NC, d bef 1850 Sumner Co or Robertson Co, TN
2. Richard Pond b. 8/4/1808 Caswell Co, NC d. 1879 Sumner Co, TN
3. James Richard Pond b. 11/16/1844 Sumner Co, TN d. 12/3/1925 Washington Co, AR
4. Hugh Jacob Pond b. 9/9/1881 Washington Co, Arkansas d. 4/1/1969 Washington Co, AR
5. James Woodrow Pond b. 1912 Washington CO, Arkansas d. 1986 Washington Co, AR Kit 87578 was in ourproject earlier Haplogroup R1b1
11/2017 Analysis of Pond Unique SNPs tested by several A6108 Phelps
For the following, please download and print the tree diagram (at the end of this page) Pond test results diagram .docx
Ydna Triangulation of two tested men to their common ancestor allows us to deduce the ydna of that common ancestor
SNPs for all practical purposes mutate once forever. And are always handed down father to son.. So by triangulating “up the tree” we can deduce the snps (and usually is STR markers although they are not as reliable) of the common ancestor. Once we deduce his snps we can triangulate to even another common ancestor using another tested descendant branch.
Then we can assume those snps are in those who are geologically downstream in that lineage, but haven’t even been tested.
In the Pond lineage we can only triangulatey back to John Marion Pond b 1811 MCNairy Co, TN.
Pond descendant 84865 is positive for only one snp of the 4 developed by the other Pond's Big Y test. That single positive snp for both descendants is SNPBY22797 and is thus the oldest SNP. It was triangulated to James Irvin Pond b cir 1811 TN. This indicates that snp mutated some time between A6108 (1500) and his father. And the other 3 snps not shared mutated in the descendants of Joseph Marion Pond b 1837 until the present man kit 32125. Thus over about 150 years, 3 snps mutated. This is considerably faster than the general average of 144 years per snp mutation..
The A6108 Phelps don’t have any of Pond’s 4 SNPs thus they could only have descended from a Pond if the Pond ancestor had NONE of those 4 snps which would put it back to soon after the common ancestor with Z31503> A6108, abt 500 years ago. I suggest this is unlikely, but certainly possible.
What does this say about a Pond descending from a Phelps? What makes this so difficult is that we have no genealogical common ancestor of the A6108 Phelps . But the odds might favor Phelps as the origin. Whoever it was has to be since a common ancestor with Z31503 > A6108 I see no solution with Pond and 227796 (Albemarle) or B6124 (GA?) because they don’t share their identifying SNPs even with each other or with Pond back to A6108. So we have to be talking about a common ancestor very early back to 1500 or so – One who had only Z31503 and A6108 – Or one or more of his descendants.
To add to the mystery, the descendants of those “Albemarle Phelps” who were in KY don’t even have A6108 ! Of those one, H1129, has a big y test, and the Pond doesn’t have his unique snps. So there is no need non-A6108 men to test for the snps of A6108 men. But I would suggest that 84867 (not respondingJohn Sr b ca 1730 Albemarle do a Big Y test. Perhaps the Pond and other A6108 men would test to see if they share his snps (if he is found with some).
1/2018: The above mystery has concluded that the A6108 mutation occurred in William Phelps d. 1749, son of Thomas d. 1751 , both of albemarle co, VA See the related section on the right index.
THE RELATIONSHIP OF ONE BRANCH OF PONDS WITH THE E1A1 M44 PHELPS OF COLONIAL AMERICA.
Submitted by Douglas Phelps 6/2016 Major Changes in red, 6/2017; 11/2017
Summary: One paternal branch of the Pond line has a common ancestor with a number of M44/E1a1 Phelps, mostly with ancestors in Albemarle Co, VA. In that area, their common ancestor may well have been in very early colonial America, or even earlier in the country of origin. Since surnames were taken somewhere around the 1500s or a bit earlier, it may well be their common ancestor was an man without a surname, whose descendants chose either Phelps or Pond not realizing they were related. Of course the possibility of a NPE remains, but it is difficult to say when or where. Advanced SNP testing via Big Y tests, analyzed by Yfull.com has provided much insight. . In summary the SNP evidence clearly suggests appears to suggest that Phelps was the original surname. See the 11/2017 SNP analysis for more information
The Pond/Phelps Issue of Caswell Co, NC
One branch of Ponds in early NC and VA have descendants whose yDNA STRs match very well with the E1a1 M44 haplogroup Phelps of colonial southern America. This Pond line originally was thought to be the same as another major colonial Virginia Pond line, but yDNA has proven otherwise. The Phelps-Pond relationship (NPE) was at first thought to originate in Caswell County, NC possibly through one of the sons of James Phelps d.1786 who lived very near a Pond family in Caswell Co, NC near the Dan River. Further research showing possible origins in from Maryland of both the James family and at least a Pond wife added to the speculation. With the completion of six FTDNA Big Y SNP tests, analyzed by the company Yfull.com, the Caswell County speculation is considered by most to be unfounded. SNPs, which are far more reliable that STRs, For further evidence see below: Further explanation on the Pond/Phelps Caswell Issue
The Ponds/Phelps with A6108
Six FTDNA Big Y SNP tests were completed, analyzed by the company Yfull.com, with resulting unique SNPs for the group and the individual lineages. They which are far more reliable that STRs, and uncovered two major subgroups of E1a1 M44. They are Z31503 and a subgroup of that, A6108. Since not all Phelps have A6108, it is evident that Z31503 is oldest. . All these Phelps have least Z31503. All the Ponds have both Z31503 and A6108, Some of the Albemarle Phelps do also. Thus it must be assumed that Phelps was the oldest surname for all. As stated by John Phelps "It is most probable that the M44 Phelps came before the M44 POnds since we have Phelps without A6108 and all Ponds have A6108."
The A6108 group also contains a number of Phelps who associate their origins to a common ancestor Thomas Phelps d. 1751 Albemarle Co, NC. Unfortunately their genealogy continues to remain unclear due to missing records combined with unexpected SNP results. For example of the 3 Albemarle Phelps lines with supposedly good genealogy back to Thomas , two do NOT have the A6108 SNP, yet one does! Thus it remains speculative how the A6108 Phelps/Pond lines were related to one another and to Thomas d. 1751. It is even possible there was another major Phelps/Pond line perhaps as far back as pre-colonial times.
The question then is of those A6108 men, which came first: Pond or Phelps? We know that Z31503 is older than A6108 . The Pond line has both. Some Phelps do also. But some Phelps lines only have Z31503. If Pond were first and had Z31503 and later had A6108 that would mean some Phelps came from that line. But then how do we explain that Phelps also came from strictly Z31503. It would mean a change to a Phelps surname in two different groups. On the other hand if Phelps were first, it would mean only one group changed to Pond. Thus it is more likely that Phelps was the earliest surname.
Notice the aging of the common ancestor (TMRCA), A6108, is a whopping 500 Years Before the Present or 1500 ypb . I had very much hoped to see a shared SNP between the Pond and one of the other Phelps, but it was not found. Yfull says: Unfortunately we didn't found any common SNPs for YF05467 and YF04226 or for YF05467 and YF04217. So we din't create new subclade and we will not do this. Of course further Big Y testing might show a new subgroup within A6108. YFULL, to be helpful for family tree creation, offers a suggestion of “SNP/STR signatures” to enable a theoretical family tree within a subgroup. Unfortunately we are thus back with STRs with their inherent problems. Regardless, I will offer what they suggest and some further details for your consideration.
CAUTION: BECAUSE ONLY THREE MEN WITH A6108 WERE BIG Y TESTED (ONE POND AND TWO PHELPS) ONLY THOSE THREE CAN BE COMPARED USING YFULL'S LARGE NUMBER OF SNPS. OMITTED ARE THOSE WHO SIMPLY TESTED POSITIVE FOR A6108 AND DID NOT DO A BIG Y TEST.
In summary, the closest genetically to the Pond is kit 227796, Alexander Phelps b c.1815 Amherst CO, VA . The other Big Y testee, B6124 , Frank (Francis) Phelps, b. bf 1797 in GA(?) is not as close. What about those other A6108 kits? The genealogy is simply not clear enough to theorize because the SNP testing is severely limited. I personally doubt further STR testing will clarify this. Unfortunately, to have a chance, it will take Big Y testing on the A6108 men.
Note 1. Further Yfull.com tree detail is available at https://www.yfull.com/tree/E/ and my explanatory tree at https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupe1a1/home/e1a1-project-testing-results
Further explanation on the Pond/Phelps Caswell Issue
It is often asked if we are sure about the mutation rates of snps as it regards the Pond/Phelps at Caswell Co.
· Perhaps the clearest proof that the Pond did not come from the James of Caswell Co. line does not use the theory of snp mutation rates. It uses only the two SNPs, Z31503 and A6108. If one person has snps Z31503 and A6018 and another person has only Z31503 then Z31503 is the oldest. The James of Caswell line has only one snp, Z31503, thus for sure our line is oldest compared to those with both snps. If we were to say that a Pond son came from one of James’s sons, then A6108 would have to have mutated at or after the 1780 William Pond b. Caswell .
· But that could not explain how all those Albemarle Phelps got A6108. Doesn’t make sense.
· Beyond those 2 snps, why doesn’t the Pond line have any of the 3 unique lineage snps found in a descendant of James. Two more of that known line had those 2 snps because James’s ancestor(s) had them earlier and they were handed down. Even an Albemarle Phelps, William d. 1811, had one of those snps. I cant prove how much earlier they mutated, but they were earlier. The answer has to be that the Pond of Caswell did not come from James’s sons.
· So none of the above has anything to do with mutation rates. Mutation rates comes into play when trying to figure when a branch took place. In the James of Caswell line we already know that.