Jera Wolfe ~ A Study in Scruples
Mark Larkento has evidently personally unblocked me. I can now see his TimeLine and his posts and comments in Conversation.
But he has not unblocked me in ToMBK.
Comments
Like
Jera Wolfe This is still bothering you?
Move on, life is short. ToM is irrelevant in our work or our lives beyond as a distraction. Don't let it get to you, Barry.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:22am
Love
Haha
Wow
Sad
Angry
Barry Kort I am outraged over the practice of taking another person's academic work and purloining or sequestering it. And not just in your instance, because this happens every few years in these social networks.
And it's a gross violation of Facebook's own published policies on the matter.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:24am
Jera Wolfe Hmm...
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:24am
Jera Wolfe Okay, I guess I can understand that. But you have to be realistic. Don't let your emotional response get in the way of you being productive, awesome, and sharing your brilliance with others.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:24am
Barry Kort Have you reviewed the policy?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:24am
Jera Wolfe Also, it wasn't really of value to you until you lost access to it.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:25am
Jera Wolfe I specifically checked before hand remember?
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:25am
Barry Kort I cannot functionally share my work if someone grabs my work, keeps it to themselves, and denies me access to it to share it anew with others.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:25am
Jera Wolfe No, but is there any work there that is exclusive to ToM that you couldn't reproduce elsewhere?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:26am
Barry Kort My time is valuable. I spent months crafting that work.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:27am
Jera Wolfe Yes, but you also disregarded that work, perhaps in a moment of emotional frustration, explictely with me when I asked.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:27am
Jera Wolfe If you had said it was of value, scientific and academic value, when I asked, my recommendation to my friend would have been different. This is partially a problem of your own making. I'm willing to help you fix it, but just remember that aspect as we discuss solutions.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:28am
Jera Wolfe Would you like Screenies of the work?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:28am
Jera Wolfe I could take screenshots.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:30am
Barry Kort No. I would like you to go to Mark Larkento and request that he take my name off the Block List, so that I can have unfettered access to the corpus of my work in situ, so that I can share it from time to time with other correspondents who are similarly struggling with the issue of Theories of Mind.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:31am
Jera Wolfe So you don't want the information, the screenshots?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:32am
Jera Wolfe You know, I understand if this is about the banishment more than the information. I can try to help you with that. But if its just about the information, I can fix that for you.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:33am
Barry Kort No, screenshots are not editable text. I am requesting that you to go to Mark Larkento and ask him to take my name off the Block List, so that I can have unfettered access to the corpus of my work in situ, so that I can share it from time to time with other correspondents who are similarly struggling with the issue of Theories of Mind.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:34am
Jera Wolfe But if you have the information, the screenies, you can always repost them, with edits.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:35am
Jera Wolfe I was under the assumption you didn't remember the content.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:35am
Jera Wolfe You realize I AM a systemic thinker.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:36am
Jera Wolfe Maybe not to the skill and experience and practice you are, but I'm looking at this from a variety of angles.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:36am
Jera Wolfe I can provide you with the info you don't have access to if you wish it. I'm going to think about the other, before I answer, if that's alright?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:36am
Barry Kort I need the corpus of my work, in situ, as editable text, so that I can sort out what questions prompted me to craft what parts of the material.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:36am
Jera Wolfe The other being your solution.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:37am
Barry Kort Also see this thread from yesterday.
https://www.facebook.com/bkort/posts/10154485468656967...
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:37am
Jera Wolfe You can retype it. I'm a writer, I've done data entry from printed work I've lost the files too. It's better as a result usually.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:37am
Jera Wolfe Oh wow, that's a long response from Mark. I'm not interested in reading all of that.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:37am
Jera Wolfe Summarize.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:37am
Jera Wolfe I trust you.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:37am
Barry Kort I am 71 years old and I have far too many people who want to spend some time with me before my time expires on this planet. I cannot afford to be wasting time rewriting pages and pages of work that I already finished more than a year ago.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:38am
Jera Wolfe I respect my elders, and I understand your position, but Trudy is still in the group.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:39am
Barry Kort Don't read the long post from Mark. It's just a long copy/paste from someone's blog. Read the comments after it.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:39am
Jera Wolfe Okay. Roger, reading those then.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:39am
Jera Wolfe Okay, read up on those. Those were a lot shorter. Look, Trudy and Mark are both gunshy around you, and they're doing 'work' in that group.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:40am
Barry Kort I don't need write access. I only need read access. Besides, Trudy is in other conversations with me elsewhere on FB.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:40am
Jera Wolfe What guarantee do I have that you will not disabuse them with your superior capabilities of systemic analysis and your overall more developed and higher intelligence?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:40am
Jera Wolfe Okay, but isn't a screenshot basically the same as read access, no write?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:41am
Barry Kort Read this carefully: I don't need write access. I need read access.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:41am
Jera Wolfe I read that. Immediately. See my response. I'm a coder, I know what those mean.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:41am
Barry Kort I cannot edit a screenshot. I need editable text, in situ.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:41am
Jera Wolfe Okay.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:41am
Jera Wolfe Copy and pasteable text, got it.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:41am
Jera Wolfe With context.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:42am
Barry Kort In situ, because I need the context what my correspondents were confused about when I crafted responses to them.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:42am
Jera Wolfe *nods* Makes sense.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:42am
Jera Wolfe I can ask on your behalf.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:43am
Jera Wolfe Mark.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:43am
Barry Kort It's in your best interest to ensure that both of you are in compliance with Facebook's policy on this issue.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:43am
Jera Wolfe In my interests?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:44am
Jera Wolfe Explain.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:44am
Jera Wolfe I'm not sure I understand why this is in my best interests.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:46am
Jera Wolfe Would you clarify that please?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:47am
Barry Kort Because systematically and persistently departing from FB policies is a recipe for being called to account.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:51am
Jera Wolfe So you're going to report me if I don't?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:51am
Barry Kort Don't jump to conclusions. But if you have a practice that departs from FB policies, you cannot anticipate what happens when you repeat that practice going forward.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:52am
Jera Wolfe Okay, let me level with you, old man.
Let me be REAL fucking clear here, elder o' mine.
If this is just about the information, I'm totally willing to help you get access to your data to continue the work you assured me didn't exist when I bold-faced directly asked.
If this is a power play, to get your way, to overcome banishment, I will do everything I can to make sure you lose.
If you apologize to me for calling me unethical, and clarify specifically that you are not threatening me in any way, I'll help you.
If you don't, I won't.
Those are my terms. Whether its calling your bluff or doing my best to help a person who I still genuinely have a level of appreciation for, that's really up to you now isn't it...
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:53am
Barry Kort The FB policies are governed by ethical calculus from FB's partner's a the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. One would be wise to attend to them.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:54am
Jera Wolfe I didn't do anything to deny you your work. I'm not the one who blocked you remember?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:54am
Jera Wolfe At least, as far as FB policy is concerned.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:54am
Barry Kort Most people are not adept at ethical calculus, which is why FB publishes these guidelines. One departs from them at their peril.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:55am
Jera Wolfe Also, membership in groups is at the sufferance of the admins and ownership of that group.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:55am
Barry Kort You are the one who urged Mark to block me.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:55am
Jera Wolfe Yes, but I didn't decide to block you.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:55am
Barry Kort You were his advisor.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:55am
Jera Wolfe Irrelevant as far as policy is concerned.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:55am
Barry Kort He followed your advice.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:55am
Jera Wolfe Again, irrelevant as far as policy is concerned.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:55am
Barry Kort Nope. It's relevant because he relied on your calculus, which departs from the recommended calculus.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:56am
Jera Wolfe FB doesn't care, though.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:56am
Jera Wolfe *shrugs*
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:56am
Jera Wolfe You know what would be relevant, an apology.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:56am
Jera Wolfe That would help your position.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:56am
Barry Kort If FB doesn't care, why did they bring in the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence to set up their new guidelines?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:57am
Barry Kort Apology for what infraction?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:57am
Jera Wolfe Insulting me.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:57am
Barry Kort What was the remark you found insulting?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:57am
Jera Wolfe Calling me unethical.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:57am
Jera Wolfe Hurt my feelings because I respected you when you said it.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:58am
Barry Kort That's not an insult. That's an objective observation, which I provide to protect you from making a blunder.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:58am
Jera Wolfe Retract it then.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:58am
Barry Kort I do not wish for you to blunder in that manner, because sooner or later it will hurt you in the future.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 6:59am
Jera Wolfe That isn't a retraction. Retract it please.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 6:59am
Barry Kort I do not wish for you to earn a reputation for being stubborn, obtuse, and indefensibly unethical.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:00am
Jera Wolfe Alright, then I do not wish to cooperate with you.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:00am
Jera Wolfe Defection, tit for tat is the STRONGEST strategy in Game Theory. Consider me utilitarian and wise.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:00am
Barry Kort And I note that you have consciously chosen to earn and retain that reputation.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:00am
Jera Wolfe I don't consider you ethical, I do consider you stubborn and obtuse.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:01am
Jera Wolfe And childish.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:01am
Jera Wolfe For 71.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:01am
Jera Wolfe I would lose the battle to win the war, a lesson you never learned.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:01am
Barry Kort You are mistaken about the Prisoner's Dilemma. There are only two outcomes: Win-Win and Lose-Lose.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:01am
Barry Kort You have the power to choose whether it will be Win-Win or Lose-Lose.
Choose wisely, Jera.
Choose wisely.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:02am · Edited
Jera Wolfe Eh, this isn't a merely one dimensional problem. Once you move beyond one dimensional, even into two dimensional, other factors are at play. And Tit for Tat is the strongest strategy since we repeat this game.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:02am
Jera Wolfe You threatened me.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:02am
Jera Wolfe There is no choice, I must resist.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:02am
Barry Kort It's not a threat. It's a natural law that you are toying with.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:02am
Jera Wolfe I come to you, each time, willing to help, you want to define the terms, and force my submission to you like an unconditional surrendur. But this is compromise at best.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:02am
Barry Kort Then you are fated to experience Natural Law.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:03am
Jera Wolfe No, FB's decisions on policy are not natural law.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:03am
Jera Wolfe I'm going to recommend Mark block you again at this rate.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:03am
Jera Wolfe And whatever he does, I'm going to advise him to not give you access.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:04am
Barry Kort Do you really want to temp fate? I didn't invent ethics. Socrates and Plato laid the groundwork for ethics a long long time ago.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:04am
Jera Wolfe Do you really think you're relevant in my life?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:04am
Barry Kort I think that a systematic departure from ethical best practices will have a profoundly negative effect on your life
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:05am
Jera Wolfe Take care, Barry, I'm sorry you couldn't stop being an arrogant ass for two seconds to get your way. Cheers. This was your decision, your making. I tried, man, I really did. We're still friends, but when it comes to ToM, I will do EVERYTHING I CAN to stop you from getting that info.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:05am
Jera Wolfe Cheers.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:05am
Barry Kort It's not about me, Jera. It's about how you choose to live your life.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:05am
Jera Wolfe I'm succeeding at life.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:06am
Barry Kort And that will affect your children, too.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:06am
Jera Wolfe I think I'll be fine.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:06am
Jera Wolfe Seriously, you're being silly now.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:06am
Jera Wolfe U mad?
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:06am
Jera Wolfe I strongly urge you to leave my children out of this conversation.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:06am
Jera Wolfe I don't want to have to block you.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:07am
Barry Kort My father used to say to me, "Don't believe everything you read."
Today, as a science educator, I say to the students, "Don't believe everything you think."
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:07am
Jera Wolfe That's good advice, do you follow it ever?
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:07am
Barry Kort You have the power to blunder in your thinking and in your derivative practices. And I have no power to stop you from making mistakes. The only power I have is to alert you to the discoverable fact that you are repeating a well-studied blunder.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:09am · Edited
Jera Wolfe Actually, this is between you and Mark. You seem to be under the mistaken illusion that threatening me helps you somehow.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:09am
Jera Wolfe You have no power over my life, and if I ever find you do, I will remove it or end you. That simple.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:09am
Barry Kort The problem is that Mark is now in a Double Bind. Do you know of the Double Bind?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:09am
Jera Wolfe I don't trust you. As tyrants go, you would be a petty one from all evidence.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:09am
Barry Kort He has conflicting messages and he is unclear on which one to attend to.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:09am
Jera Wolfe Barry, you can keep wasting both our time, or you can apologize, tell me that wasn't a threat, you have no intention of hurting me or Mark, and I will assist you.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:10am
Jera Wolfe Those are the options I offer you, anything else, outside of agreeable compromise, is an attack, and will be treated as such.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:10am
Jera Wolfe End of line.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:10am
Jera Wolfe Your move.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:10am
Barry Kort Suppose he determines that ethical best practices are in his best interest. And he has you on record as advising him to depart egregiously from ethical best practices. Then what happens?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:11am
Jera Wolfe Nothing. Nothing at all. Mark isn't petty like you.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:11am
Jera Wolfe Still wasting both our time.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:11am
Jera Wolfe You're 71, I have more time to waste than you, better get to it.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:11am
Barry Kort Think it over, Jera. Think it over carefully, with consideration for the effect it has on those you aren't including in your calculus.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:11am
Barry Kort And you have more years to continuing to blunder in the way you did last summer.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:12am
Barry Kort How much grief do you propose to wreak before it catches up with you?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:12am
Jera Wolfe I have. I think you're under the illusion you have some sway in my life. Instead of cooperating and convincing, you want to order and demand, and expect me to submit. You aren't getting that, and its pissing you off. But I'm a free human. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO incentive in helping you.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:12am
Jera Wolfe I'm not griefing. You play that victim card hard.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:13am
Jera Wolfe You were a dick to everyone in that group, especially Mark and Trudy.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:13am
Jera Wolfe Now you're being a dick to me.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:13am
Barry Kort I expect you to learn how to think with precision. Because your career depends on it.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:13am
Jera Wolfe Why don't you try honey instead of vinegar?
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:13am
Barry Kort Because I am not Pooh Bear.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:13am
Jera Wolfe Then you aren't gonna get your way being a dick. This is a lesson you should have learned long ago. I'm helping you, and you are welcome.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:14am
Barry Kort Do you know the term from Psychology called "Projection"?
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:14am
Jera Wolfe Yep.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:15am
Barry Kort 'Nuff said, then.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:16am
Barry Kort Peace Out.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:16am
Jera Wolfe You mean you realize you've lost. Good. I'm glad we've finally realized this. Cheers!
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:19am
Jera Wolfe Note Philippe, Anne-Marie, Sandip, Trish, Mani, I gave him every ample opportunity to stop being a control-freak, and was willing to meet him halfway.
*sigh*
If you all want to vote, and decide that I should help him, I will submit to the wisdom of my friends and peers. You can post here, or just tell me in IM. I will help if more than half of us think I should.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:22am · Edited
Jera Wolfe Barry, I know your vote, so you don't have to vote.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:22am
Barry Kort cc: Anne-Marie LaMonde
Like · Reply · 1 · August 27 at 7:40am
Jera Wolfe Already tagged her.
Like · Reply · August 27 at 7:40am
Philippe van Nedervelde Barry needs to apologize to you for insulting you,Jera. And he needs to do it in a way that convinces you (and preferably others here too) of his sincere contrition.
Beyond the apology, he also needs to fully retract his insulting allegation.
After he apologizes to your satisfaction, you can proceed to assist him, but I would make his access spring-loaded, conditional. Like a probation.
Better to not give him access back and give him a full copy of all threads and sub-threads. That will provide enough context. His argument for needing in situ access is not persuasive.
I think you are right re this really being a power play first and foremost. The rest are pretexts.
Barry Kort Baloney. I called Jera out on an egregiously unethical practice that also goes against Facebook's express policy on bullying.
Here is how Facebook, in cooperation with the Yale Center on Emotional Intelligence, defines bullying:
What Is Bullying?
Bullying is any kind of repeated aggressive behavior that involves an imbalance of power such as social status or physical size. Along with physical or verbal attacks, bullying also includes making threats, spreading rumors or deliberately excluding someone from a group.
Tools, tips and programs that help people stand up for each other.
FACEBOOK.COM
Like · Reply · Remove Preview · 2 hrs
Philippe van Nedervelde Baloney. You can keep citing chapter and verse of FB policy all day long if you like. Jera and Mark did nothing wrong, and certainly nothing unethical in blocking you. You had it coming, big time. I was privy to most of what transpired in that group, and if anyone there did any bullying, it was *you*.
If Mark and/or Jera resolve to report you to FB for bullying, I may have to support them.
If FB then asks me whether I have witnessed you bullying other people at other times in other FB places, I will have to answer them truthfully that I have, and show them where and when if asked. The optics of your having been banned from a steadily growing number of FB groups will not help when you protest your innocence.
What goes around, comes around.
As you recommended to Jera upthread: choose wisely.
Barry Kort Jera induced Mark to violate FB Policy on Bullying and I called him on it. I handled it. End of story.
Philippe van Nedervelde That's your version. Nobody agrees with your version. I agree with Mark and Jera on the propriety of what transpired. Mark blocked you fair and square. Your bullying and other behavior in there was way out of line and unacceptable. You had it coming. You suffered the natural consequences of your actions.
Barry Kort "Nobody agrees with your version." ~PvN
What is your evidence that no one agrees with my version?
Philippe van Nedervelde You did not 'handle' anything. You bungled it and blew it. Many times over.
Philippe van Nedervelde What is your evidence that someone else (of the people involved) agrees with your version?
Philippe van Nedervelde Barry, just finally stop already with trying to be slippery like an eel to wriggle out of this. Show us you're a real *mensch* after all, pretty please with glucose on top?
Barry Kort " What is your evidence that someone else (of the people involved) agrees with your version?" ~PvN
Try this: