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Moreover, I saw in my Dream, that as they went on, Faithful, as they went on, Faithful, as he chanced to look on one side, saw a man whose name is Talkative, walking at a distance besides them; (for in this place there was room enough for them all to walk). He was a tall man, and something more comely at a distance than at hand. To this man Faithful addressed himself in this manner.
Faithful: Friend, Whither away? Are you going to the Heavenly Country?
Talkative: I am going to the same place.
Faithful: That is well; then I hope we may have your good company.
Talkative: With a very good will will I be your companion.
Faithful: Come on then, and let us go together, and let us spend our time in discoursing of things that are profitable.
Talkative: To talk of things that are good, to me is very acceptable, with you or with any other; and I am glad that I have met with those that incline to so good a work; for to speak the truth, there are but few that care thus to spend their time (as they are in their travels), but chose much rather to be speaking of things to no profit; and this hath been a trouble to me.
Faithful: That is indeed a thing to be lamented; for what things so worthy of the use of the tongue and mouth of men on earth as are the things of the God of Heaven?
Talkative: I like you wonderful well, for your saying is full of conviction; and I will add, What thing so pleasant, and what so profitable, as to talk of the things of God? What things so pleasant? (that is, if a man hath any delight in things that are wonderful) for instance, if a man doth delight to talk of the history or the mystery of things; or if a man doth love to talk of Miracles, Wonders, or Signs, where shall he find things recorded so delightful, and so sweetly penned, as in the Holy Scripture?
Faithful: That's true; but to be profited by such things in our talk should be that which we design.
Talkative: That's it that I said; for to talk of such things is most profitable; for by so doing, a man may get knowledge of many things; as of the vanity of earthly things; and the benefit of things above: (Thus in general) but more particularly. By this a man may learn the necessity of the new - birth, the insufficiency of our works, the need of Christ's righteousness, etc. Besides, by this a man may learn by talk, what it is to repent, to believe, to pray, to suffer, or the like; by this also a man may learn what are the great promises and consolations of the Gospel, to this own comfort. Further, by this a man may learn to refute false opinions, to vindicate the truth, and also to instruct the ignorant.
Faithful: All this is true, and am I glad to hear these things from you.
Talkative: Alas! the want of this is the cause that so few understand the need of faith, and the necessity of a work of Grace in their soul, in order to eternal life; but ignorantly live in the works of the Law, by which a man can by no means obtain the Kingdom of Heaven.
Faithful: But by your leave, Heavenly knowledge of these is the gift of God; no man attaineth to them by human industry, or only by the talk of them.
Talkative: All this I know very well; for a man can receive nothing, except it be given him from Heaven: all is of Grace, not of Works: I could give you a hundred Scriptures for the confirmation of this.
Faithful: Well then, said Faithful, what is that one thing that we shall at this time found our discourse upon?
Talkative: What you will. I will talk of things Heavenly, or things Earthly; things Moral, or things Evangelical; things sacred or things profane; things past or things to come; things foreign or things at home; things more essential or things circumstantial; provided that all be done to our profit.
Faithful: Now did Faithful begin to wonder; and stepping to Christian (for he walked all this while by himself) he said to him, (but softly) what a brave Companion have we got! Surely this man will make a very excellent Pilgrim.
Christian: At this Christian modestly smiled, and said, This man with whom you are so taken, will beguile with this tongue of his, twenty of them that know him not.
Faithful: Do you know him then?
Christian: Know him! Yes, better than he knows himself.
Faithful: Pray what is he?
Christian: His name is Talkative; he dwelleth in our Town: I wonder that you should be a stranger to him, only I consider that our Town is large.
Faithful: Whose son is he? And whereabout doth he dwell?
Christian: He is the son of one Say-well; he dwelt in Prating Row; and is known of all that are acquainted with him, by the name of Talkative in Prating Row; and notwithstanding his fine tongue, he is but a sorry fellow.
Faithful: Well, he seems to be a very pretty man.
Christian: That is, to them who have thorough acquaintance with him, for he is best abroad, near home he is ugly enough: Your saying that he is a pretty man, brings to my mind what I have observed in the work of the painter, whose pictures shew best at a distance, but very near, more unpleasing.
Faithful: But I am ready to think you do but jest, because you smiled.
Christian: God forbid that I should jest (though I smiled) in this matter, or that I should accuse any falsely: I will give you a further discovery of him: This man is for any company, and for any talk; as he talketh now with you, so he will talk when he is on the ale-bench; and the more drink he hath in his crown, the more of these things he hath in his mouth; Religion hath no place in his heart, or house, or conversation; all he hath lieth in his tongue, and his Religion is to make a noise therewith.
Faithful: Say you so! Then am I in this man greatly deceived.
Christian: Deceived! you may be sure of it; remember the Proverb, They say and do not: but the Kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. He talketh of Prayer, of Repentance, of Faith, and of the New-birth; but he knows but only to talk of them. I have been in his family, and have observed him both at home and abroad; and I know what I say of him is the truth. His house is as empty of Religion as the white of an egg is of savour. There is there neither Prayer, nor sign of Repentance for sin; yea, the brute in his kind serves God better than he. He is the very stain, reproach, and shame of Religion, to all that know him; it can hardly have a good word in all that end of the Town where he dwells through him. Thus say the common people that know him, A saint abroad, and a Devil at home. His poor family finds it so; he is such a churl, such a railer at, and so unreasonable with his servants, that they neither know how to do for, or speak to him. Men that have any dealings with him, say 'tis better to deal with a turk than with him; for fairer dealing they shall have at their hands. This Talkative (if it be possible) will go beyond them, defraud, beguile, and over-reach them. Besides he brings up his sons to follow his steps; and if he findeth in any of them a foolish timorousness, (for so he calls the first appearance of a tender conscience) he calls them fools and blockheads and by no means will employ them in much, or speak to their commendations before others. For my part I am of opinion that he has by his wicked life caused many to stumble and fall; and will be, if God prevent not, the ruin of many more.
Faithful: Well, my brother, I am bound to believe you; not only because you say you know him, but also because like a Christian, you make your reports of men. For I cannot think that you speak these things of ill will, but because it is even so as you say.
Christian: Had I known him no more than you, I might perhaps have thought of him as at the first you did; yea, had he received this report at their hands only that are enemies to Religion, I should have thought it had been a slander: (a lot that often falls from bad men's mouths upon good men's names and professions;) but all these things, yea and a great many more as bad, of my own knowledge I can prove him guilty of. Besides, good men are ashamed of him; they can neither call him brother, nor friend; the very naming of him among them, makes them blush, if they know him.
Faithful: Well, I see that saying and doing are two things, and hereafter I shall better observe this distinction.
Christian: They are two things indeed, and are as diverse as are the soul and the body; for as the body without the soul is but a dead carcass, so saying, if it be alone, is but a dead carcass also. The soul of Religion is the practic part:
"Pure religion and undefiled, before God and the Father, is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world".
This Talkative is not aware of; he thinks that hearing and saying will make a good Christian, and thus he deceiveth his own soul. Hearing is but as the sowing of the seed; talking is not sufficient to prove that fruit is indeed in the heart and life; and let us assure ourselves, that at the day of doom men shall be judged according to their fruits. It will not be said then, Did you believe? but were you doers, or talkers only? and accordingly shall they be judged. The end of the world is compared to our harvest, and you know men at harvest regard nothing but fruit. Not that anything can be accepted that is not of faith; but I speak this to shew you how insignificant the profession of Talkative will be at that day.
Faithful: This brings to my mind that of Moses, by which he describeth the beast that is clean. He is such an one that parteth the hoof and cheweth the cud: not that parteth the hoof only, or that cheweth the cud only. The hare cheweth the cud, but yet is unclean, because he parteth not the hoof. And this truly resembleth Talkative; he cheweth the cud, he seeketh knowledge, he cheweth upon the Word; but he divideth not the hoof, he parteth not with the way of sinners; but as the hare, he retaineth the foot of a dog or bear, and therefore is unclean.
Christian: You have spoken, for ought I know, the true Gospel sense of those Texts:
And I will add another thing; Paul calleth some men, yea and those great Talkers too, sounding brass and tinkling cymbals; that is, as he expounds them in another place, Things without life, giving sound. Things without life, that is, without the true Faith and Grace of the Gospel; and consequently things that shall never be placed in the Kingdom of Heaven among those that are the children of life; though their sound, by their talk, be as if it were the tongue or voice of an angel.
Faithful: Well, I was not so fond of his company at first, but I am as sick of it now. What shall we do to be rid of him?
Christian: Take my advice, and do as I bid you, and you shall find that he will soon be sick of your company too, except God shall touch his heart, and turn it.
Faithful: What would you have me to do?
Christian: Why, go to him, and enter into some serious discourse about the power of Religion; and ask him plainly (when he has approved of it, for that he will) whether this thing be set up in his heart, house, or conversation.
Faithful: Then Faithful stepped forward again, and said to Talkative, Come what chere? How is it now?
Talkative: Thank you, well. I thought we should have had a great deal of talk by this time.
Faithful: Well, if you will, we will fall to it now; and since you left it with me to state the question, let it be this; How doth the saving Grace of God discover itself, when it is in the heart of man?
Talkative: I perceive then that our talk must be about the power of things: Well, 'tis a very good question, and I shall be willing to answer you. And take my answer in brief thus: First, Where the Grace of God is in the heart, it causeth there a great out-cry against sin.
Faithful: Nay hold, let us consider of one at once: I think you should rather say, It shews itself by inclining the soul to abhor its sin.
Talkative: Why, what difference is there between crying out against, and abhorring of sin?
Faithful: Oh! a great deal; a man may cry out against sin, or policy; but he cannot abhor it, but by virtue of a godly antipathy against it: I have heard many cry out against sin in the pulpit, who yet can abide it well enough in the heart, house, and conversation. Joseph's mistress cried out with a loud voice, as if she had been very holy; but she would willingly, notwithstanding that, have committed uncleanness with him. Some cry out against sin, even as the mother cries out against her child in her lap, when she calleth it slut and naughty girl, and then falls to hugging and kissing it.
Talkative: You lie at the catch, I perceive.
Faithful: No, not I; I am only for setting things right. But what is the second thing whereby you would prove a discovery of a work of Grace in the heart?
Talkative: Great knowledge of Gospel mysteries.
Faithful: This sign should have been first; bur first or last, it is also false; for knowledge, great knowledge may be obtained in the mysteries of the Gospel, and yet no work of Grace in the soul. Yea, if a man have all knowledge, he may yet be nothing; and so consequently be no child of God. When Christ said, "Do you know all these things?" and the disciples had answered, "Yes"; He added "Blessed are ye if ye do them". He doth not lay the blessing in the knowing of them, but in the doing of them. For there is a knowledge that is not attended with doing; He that knoweth his Master's will, and doth it not. A man may know like an angel, and yet be no Christian, therefore your sign of it is not true. Indeed to know is a thing that pleaseth talkers and boasters; but to do is that which pleaseth God. Not that the heart can be good without knowledge; for without that the heart is naught. There is therefore knowledge and knowledge. Knowledge that resteth in the bare speculation of things, and knowledge that is accompanied with the Grace of faith and love, which puts a man upon doing even the will of God from the heart; the first of these will serve the talker; but without the other the true Christian is not content. Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy Law; yea I shall observe it with my whole heart.
Talkative: You lie at the catch again, this is not for edification.
Faithful: Well, if you please propound another sign how this work of Grace discovereth itself where it is.
Talkative: Not I, for I see we shall not agree.
Faithful: Well, if you will not, will you give me leave to do it?
Talkative: You may use your liberty.
Faithful: A work of Grace in the soul discovereth itself, either to him that hath it, or to standers-by. To him that hath it thus: It gives him conviction of sin, especially of the defilement of his nature and the sin of unbelief (for the sake of which he is sure to be damned, if he findeth not mercy at God's hand by faith in Jesus Christ). This sight and sense of things worketh in him sorrow and shame for sin; he findeth moreover revealed in him the Saviour of the world, and the absolute necessity of closing with him for life, at the which he findeth hungering and thirsting after him, to which hungering, the promise is made. Now according to the strength or weakness of his faith in his Saviour, so is his joy and peace, so is his love to holiness, so are his desires to know him more, and also to serve Him in this world. But though I say it discovereth itself thus unto him, yet it is but seldom that he is able to conclude that this is a work of Grace; because his corruptions now, and his abused reason, make his mind to misjudge in this matter; therefore in him that hath this work, there is required a very sound Judgment before he can with steadiness conclude that this is a work of Grace. To others it is thus discovered:
1. By an experimental confession of his faith in Christ.
2. By a life answerable to that confession, to wit, a life of holiness, heart-holiness, family-holiness, (if he hath a family) and by conversation-holiness, in the world; which in the general teacheth him, inwardly to abhor his sin, and himself for that in secret, to suppress it in his Family, and to promote holiness in the World; not by talk only, as an Hypocrite or Talkative person may do, but by a practical subjection, in faith and love, to the power of the Word: And now Sir, as to this brief description of the work of Grace, and also the discovery of it, if you have ought to object, object; if not, then give me leave to propound to you a second question.
Talkative: Nay my part is not now to object, but to hear, let me therefore have your second question.
Faithful: It is this. Do you experience the first part of this description of it? and doth your life and conversation testify the same? or standeth your Religion in word or in tongue, and not in deed and truth? Pray, if you incline to answer me in this, say no more than you know the God above will say Amen to; and also nothing but what your conscience can justify you in; for, not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth. Besides, to say I am thus and thus, when my Conversation and all my Neighbors tell me I lie, is great wickedness.
Talkative: Then Talkative at first began to blush, but recovering himself, thus he replied, You come now to experience, to conscience, and God; and to appeal to him for justification of what is spoken: This kind of discourse I did not expect; nor am I disposed to give an answer to such questions, because I count not myself bound thereto, unless you take upon you to be a catechiser, and, though you should so do, yet I may refuse to make you my judge. But I pray will you tell me why you ask me such questions?
Faithful: Because I saw you forward to talk, and because I knew not that you had ought else but notion. Besides, to tell you all the truth, I have heard of you that you are a man whose Religion lies in talk, and that your conversation gives this your mouth-profession the lye. They say you are a spot among Christians, and that religion fareth the worse for your ungodly conversation, that some have already stumbled at your wicked ways, and that more are in danger of being destroyed thereby; your Religion, and an ale-house, and covetousness, and uncleanness, and swearing and lying, and vain company-keeping, etc... will stand together. The Proverb is true of you which is said of a whore, to wit, That she is a shame to all women; so you are a shame to all professors. Talk. Since you are ready to take up reports, and to judge so rashly as you do, I cannot but conclude you are some peevish or melancholy man, not fit to be discoursed with; and so adieu.
Christian: Then came up Christian, and said to his brother, I told you how it would happen; your words and his lusts could not agree; he had rather leave your company than reform his life. But he is gone, as I said; let him go, the loss is no man's but his own, he has saved us the trouble of going from him; for he continuing (as I suppose he will do) as he is, he would have been but a blot in our company: besides, the Apostle says, From such withdraw thyself.
Faithful: But I am glad we had this little discourse with him, it may happen that he will think of it again; however, I have dealt plainly with him, and so am clear of his blood, if he perisheth.
Christian: You did well to talk so plainly to him as you did. There is but little of this faithful dealing with men now a days, and that makes Religion to stink so in the nostrils of many, as it doth; for they are these Talkative Fools whose Religion is only in word, and are debauched and vain in their conversation, that (being so much admitted into the fellowship of the godly) do puzzle the world, blemish Christianity, and grieve the sincere. I wish that all men would deal with such as you have done: then should they either be made more conformable to Religion, or the company of saints would be too hot for them.
Interpretation:
If you go through the entire conversation with the Talkative, you will find that this character is the most dangerous one in Christendom. There are multitudes in our churches who know the essential doctrines of the Bible concerning new birth and salvation and talk and preach much on them but have.not experienced in their lives what they talk and preach.
People or preachers likened to the Talkative are the sons of "Say-well" who dwell in Prating Row.
Faithful describes them, "This brings to my mind that of Moses, by which he describeth the beast that is clean. He is such an one that parteth the hoof and cheweth the cud: not that parteth the hoof only, or that cheweth the cud only. The hare cheweth the cud, but yet is unclean, because he parteth not the hoof. And this truly resembleth Talkative; he cheweth the cud, he seeketh knowledge, he cheweth upon the Word; but he divideth not the hoof, he parteth not with the way of sinners; but as the hare, he retaineth the foot of a dog or bear, and therefore is unclean.
These people like the hare chew the cud by seeking knowledge and chewing it but divide not the hoof. They are unclean as they do not part their ways with the way of sinners.
A man may cry out against sin, or policy; but he cannot abhor it, but by virtue of a godly antipathy against it.
Great knowledge may be obtained in the mysteries of the Gospel, and yet there is no work of grace in the soul
Salvation is in word or in tongue, and not in deed and truth. They are mere praters who talk about Jesus Christ and the need for salvation. They point their fingers towards the Cross but there is no work of the Cross in their lives.
"For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth" (2 Cor.10:18).
Talk or message of such preachers gives their mouth profession the lie. They are spots among Christians and their professed faith fares the worse for their ungodly conduct, that some have already stumbled at their wicked ways, and that more are in danger of being destroyed by them.
Flee from such people or preachers who have no testimony of Jesus or who lead a life devoid of holiness, heart-holiness, family-holiness.
A saint abroad, and a Devil at home is the apt description of such people in the Pilgrim's Progress.
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