Below we preserve the home page of GenWeb Discussion Archive, along with the surviving April 1994 messages. The archive, with many more messages is still (Nov 1 2009) online here
GenWeb Discussion Archive
The GenWeb electronic mailing list was established to facilitate the development of the GenWeb concept of globally distributed, linked genealogy databases. (GenWeb is a trademark of the non-profit Genweb Foundation first used to describe such a system of linked genealogy databases in April 1994.) The GenWeb mailing list was hosted by the electronic mailing list facility at the University of California at San Diego. The list was closed in August 1997. Subscribers have been removed from the list and messages to the GenWeb mailing list have ceased. You may still access three years of these discussions below. Conversations regarding technical aspects of building the GenWeb continue in various other fora (forums). Links to these areas will appear here soon.
Internet discussions about the GenWeb concept began with Gary Hoffman's proposal of 8 APR 1994 sent to the ROOTS-L and GEDCOM-L mailing lists as well as the National Genealogy Conference and GENTECH on Fidonet. Thereupon ensued an exchange of informal messages over several months until the GenWeb mailing list was established in September 1994. This archive includes most key messages in that series of exchanges.
April 1994
These messages during April 1994 were the precursor to the GenWeb discussion List and are archived here for historical purposes.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Fri, 8 Apr 1994 22:38:49 PDT
Message
From: Gary Hoffman
Subject: Proposed WWW Genealogy Project
To: GEDCOM-L, ROOTS-L
Introduction: With the advent of the World-Wide Web concept on the Internet, we finally have the tools to easily create a coordinated interlinked distributed worldwide genealogy database. This document describes how such a system might be put together very simply using a format such as HyperText Markup Language or HTML. This proposal is subject to change and, as it evolves, this document should become the kernel of a formal Internet RFC covering this subject. This proposal is also available on the WWW by accessing http://irpsbbs.ucsd.edu/gene/genedemo.html.
The Document: A document in HTML format is a plain text document that includes special codes to describe how it should be displayed and how it may be linked to other documents. An HTML document resides on a WWW server which publishes or transmits its HTML documents over the Internet to whomever requests them. The codes in the HTML documents allow a WWW reader or client application to display the documents with appropriate visual formatting. An HTML document may also contain embedded links that direct the reader to other documents on the same server or on different servers. These other documents may be text files or they may be picture, sound, or video files.
The Reader: A WWW client is a computer program which requests a document from a WWW server, and displays what it receives. Often auxiliary or helper programs assist the client in displaying parts of documents such as sound, picture, or video files. The most popular WWW client is NCSA mosaic which comes in versions for X-Windows, Microsoft Windows, and Maintosh. (Presently, no WWW client can run on plain MS-DOS, although DOS terminal programs may contact a WWW host through an intermediate terminal server.) These aspects of the WWW architecture contain all the basic elements required to build a worldwide-distributed database.
The Server: WWW servers appeared first on UNIX hosts, but versions for Macintosh and other operating systems have rapidly appeared. A WWW server is merely a relay system, receiving requests for documents and sending out the documents requested. In the future, WWW servers may need to conduct financial transactions relating to the services it provides (i.e. pay per view).
The Network: WWW is made possible by the Internet and transmissions between elements observe TCP/IP protocols. WWW services are generally available full-time because they reside on a network of leased lines rather than dial-up connections. Some of the links of the Internet carry traffic at hundreds of megabits per second. Requesting a WWW document may result in a transmission of as few as 300 bytes or as many as several megabytes. Most present-day Internet users (or their employers) do not pay by usage, but rather on a monthly basis. In the future, payment may become usage sensitive as Internet service becomes more generally available.
The Genealogy Document: Because the WWW architecture is document-based, each individual database record can be represented by a single document. For a genealogy database, this could mean that the record of an individual person can be contained within a single document that describes the individual's basic vital information and that individual's relationship to parents, spouse, and children. Using the HTML format, these references to other individuals become hypertext links to other documents which reside either on the same WWW server or any other WWW server in the world. A user seeking genealogy information through WWW would request the document representing an individual and then read it on the computer display. If desired, the user may activate the links to see pictures, hear sounds, or experience a video clip of the individual on the screen. The user may follow links to other individuals in order to climb the family tree or follow relationships where they might lead, individual by individual, document by document. Using this concept, the need to print out large pedigrees on paper will diminish and --we won't be cutting down trees to print family trees.
The New Concept: Up until now, genealogy researchers have tended to accumulate data from all sources into their own possession in order to create their own private database representing the family tree. Under WWW, private accumulation is not required because instant access to the entire family tree is possible at any time. The data resides "in the network" and the reader need not be concerned about where it physically exists or on whose hard drive or whose computer. Possession of genealogy data loses meaning when everybody can access everything at any time. There will naturally be a variety of large and small servers on the network, all contributing their part to the worldwide database. Each genealogy archive must be available ideally full time for the system to be effective and can be sponsored by institutions or individuals. The data may be stored in any format, such as text files or database formats, as long as it is served up in the HTML format. Likewise, the standard WWW reader application can display a genealogy file adequately, but specialized readers may be developed to create more particular displays. The actual data structure of a genealogy HTML document remains to be defined, but I have created several examples of how this can be done. Link to my WWW server noted above for these examples.
The Continuing Role of Research: Genealogy research will still be required to establish the existence and details of individuals, but the output of this research will be an HTML document or equivalent. By linking the genealogy HTML file to the source files or other references, a user can trace the displayed information back to its source and, in a sense, re-check the original researcher's path.
Converting Present-day Systems: The potential of such a system is to completely supersede personal genealogy database programs, central genealogy database programs (Ancestral File), genealogy data communication protocols (i.e. GEDCOM). Data stored in present-day systems could be exported into HTML file structure or could be retained in its present form and served up by a translator program on an as-needed basis. There will be a need for computer applications to perform both tasks. Also, until the Internet is universally available, the role played other computer networks will be valuable.
Comments Invited: I invite anyone with comments to email me (ghoffman@ucsd.edu) or (better) post a message to roots-L/ soc.roots, GEDCOM-L, or GENSOFT. Please put WWW in the subject of the message. I do not "own" these ideas or wish unilaterally to set any standards, but desire only to raise the issues for all to participate in their resolution. There are many issues to be addressed, including naming this concept (I nominate "HyperRoots" if that's not too corny), outlining responsibilities of data custodians, addressing privacy issues, insuring data reliability, and indexing of databases to facilitate linking. This will be an exciting development as it unfolds. Keep your eye on an information superhighway near you.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Sunday, April 10, 1994 4:50:08 PM
GenWeb Item
From: "Rafal T. Prinke" <RAFALP%PLPUAM11.BITNET@VM1.NoDak.EDU>
Subject: WWW
To: GEDCOM
Gary Hoffman <ghoffman@UCSD.EDU> writes:
> This leads directly to the idea that the genealogical data
> should be stored in perhaps GEDCOM, PAF, or other datafile
> format. A WWW request would trigger a separate search engine
> which would lookup the requested information in the datafile
> and create an output file in HTML format. The server would
> then send the HTML file to the requestor for display. (This
> all happens instantly, of course.)
>
> Another advantage of a datafile structure is that it can be
> pre-indexed to allow for quick searches. And then perhaps
> the various indexes could be themselves indexed into a
> master search database which would serve as the request
> director, sending WWW requests to the proper WWW server.
> Observe the Veronica and Archie functions in Internet space.
The WWW Genealogy Project looks really exciting. As you suggest GEDCOM (I would exclude the PAF format for many reasons), this is another reason for pressing on the Coordinator to finalize the GEDCOM standard so that this and similar projects can start rolling. I thought about another project - which could be connected - namely something like the Gutenberg Project but involving typing in genealogies from published books into GEDCOM format. I believe that, unlike in Gutenberg Project, this would not involve the copyright problem as it would not be quoting but extracting facts from the original publications.
Best regards
Rafal
---------------------------------------------------------------
Monday, April 11, 1994 9:34:39 AM
GenWeb Item
From: Genealogical Data Communications Specs,GEDCOM-L@VM1.NoDak.EDU,Internet
Subject: Re: Proposed WWW Genealogy Project
To: GEDCOM
> The New Concept: Up until now, genealogy researchers have
> tended to accumulate data from all sources into their own
> possession in order to create their own private database
> representing the family tree. Under WWW, private
> accumulation is not required because instant access to the
> entire family tree is possible at any time.
The problem is that genealogy is as much an art as a science. Who would oversee such a distributed database? How would conflicts be resolved between overlapping files? It seems to me that private accumulation may be the only way to go for anyone who is at all serious about this.
John
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message
From: Cliff Manis,cmanis@csf.com
Subject: Re: Proposed WWW Genealogy Project
To: Gary Hoffman
Gary:
Reference part this message:
> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 22:38:49 PDT
> Reply-To: Gary Hoffman <ghoffman@UCSD.EDU>
> Subject: Proposed WWW Genealogy Project
>
> Introduction: With the advent of the World-Wide Web concept
> on the Internet, we finally have the tools to easily create
> a coordinated interlinked distributed worldwide genealogy
> database.
I will surely take a look at this.
This sounds exciting.
As you must be aware, I have been running the GenServ, Genealogical GEDCOPM Server here. My csf.com site is not on internet as yet, but hope to have it up on Internet using SLIP in the future.
I am attaching the 'help' file associated with the GenServ system here, and maybe someday we can get it all working together.
Thanks for posting your information to the GEDCOM-L area, and you might even want to post it to the LINES-L area. We have lots of heavy GEDCOM users there, and it would be good info for the LifeLines Program users in general.
Thanks, and please post to either GEDCOM-L or LINES-L at anytime you have an update.
> Comments Invited: I invite anyone with comments to email me
> (ghoffman@ucsd.edu) or (better) post a message to roots-L/
> soc.roots, GEDCOM-L, or GENSOFT. Please put WWW in the
> subject of the message.
> .....custodians, addressing privacy issues, insuring data
> reliability, and indexing of databases to facilitate
> linking. This will be an exciting development as it unfolds.
> Keep your eye on an information superhighway near you.
> *Gary B. Hoffman, Computer/Language Lab Director
> e-mail: ghoffman@ucsd.edu*
Please add me to your private mailing list as cmanis@csf.com for any info on this.
As you will see below, use and access to the Genserv is free, and depandent only upon sending a GEDCOM file to be added to the system.
"This service is free, but is available ONLY to persons who have submitted a GEDCOM database themselves - the Genserv Project is thus an exercise in cooperative use of modern database and networking technology."
I know you are busy, but would appreciate a note at anytime.
Thanks..cliff
[GENSERV2 Manual Deleted]
--
GenServ, Genealogical Server, for info, send next line to: genserv@csf.com
send request.info to your-internet-address (in lowercase)
Please put your valid return Internet address in the line above line!
-
Cliff Manis Internet: cmanis@csf.com ROOTS-L Mailing List Administrator
My USMAIL Address: K4ZTF, P. O. Box 33937, San Antonio, Texas 78265-3937
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Monday, April 11, 1994 6:05:31 AM
Message
From: Gary Frederick,ggf@jsoft.com,Internet
Subject: Re: Proposed WWW Genealogy Project
To: Gary Hoffman
Susan forwarded your proposal for a WWW project to me. It looks very interesting.
I wrote a parser that reads GEDCOM and outputs database commands for SYBASE.
I am interested in the project. How can I help?
Has anyone set up genealogy info in html?
Gary
======
Gary Frederick
home schooling, languages and other stuff
e-mail: Gary Frederick <ggf@jsoft.com>
The Woodlands, Texas (just north of Houston)
Jefferson Software Inc.
Thomas Jefferson to Dupont de Nemours 4-24-16
'Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppression of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
======
---------------------------------------------------------------
Monday, April 11, 1994 8:24:01 AM
Message
From: Gary Hoffman
Subject: Re(2): Proposed WWW Genealogy Project
To: Gary Frederick,ggf@jsoft.com,Internet
Thanks for your reply.
I thought I'd sit down and write a HyperCard parser last night--got several hours into it before I realized it is a BIG job. Are you familiar with HTML format? If you'd like to adapt your scripts to this project, you are welcome. The final output would be (at this point) individual text files. I thought I'd start with the ROYALS.GED that is on the net. I haven't figured out how to automatically build the links between cards. Perhaps each file name would be a concatenation of the name of the original file (i.e. Royal) plus the RIN number, that is, it's GEDCOM version (@I34@) plus the extension ".html".
Let me know what you think.
Cheers,
Gary
Gene Foust <gfoust@ball.com>
---------------------------------------------------------------
Monday, April 11, 1994 7:43:45 AM
Message
From: Elizabeth Harris,chlamy@acpub.duke.edu,Internet
Subject: Re: Proposed WWW Genealogy Project
To: Gary Hoffman
I would love to see this come to fruition. Thanks for posting a good introduction. I'm using Mosaic for work-related projects, and am working on a biological database that will eventually be on the WWW server of the National Agricultural Library. It's a terrific tool, and one that we should begin to exploit for genealogy as soon as we can.
I'm not a computer expert, and can't offer you much help, but do keep me posted on your progress.
Elizabeth Harris
chlamy@acpub.duke.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------
Monday, April 11, 1994 8:35:06 AM
Message
From: Gene Foust,gfoust@ball.com,Internet
Subject: Re: Proposed WWW Genealogy Project
To: Gary Hoffman
Gary, this is a fantastic idea. I have data I am willing to share in this fashion, but currently my address is hidden behind a firewall. The only suggestion I would have for your sample page, is a place to cite sources for each item (Something you alluded to in your message).
---------------------------------------------------------------
Monday, April 11, 1994 9:34:39 AM
GenWeb Item
From: Genealogical Data Communications Specs,GEDCOM-L@VM1.NoDak.EDU,Internet
Subject: Re: Proposed WWW Genealogy Project
To: GEDCOM
> The New Concept: Up until now, genealogy researchers have
> tended to accumulate data from all sources into their own
> possession in order to create their own private database
> representing the family tree. Under WWW, private
> accumulation is not required because instant access to the
> entire family tree is possible at any time.
The problem is that genealogy is as much an art as a science. Who would oversee such a distributed database? How would conflicts be resolved between overlapping files? It seems to me that private accumulation may be the only way to go for anyone who is at all serious about this.
John
---------------------------------------------------------------
Monday, April 11, 1994 4:26:18 PM
Message
From: J.C.T. Pool,jpool@delilah.ccsf.caltech.edu
Subject: "HyperRoots"
To: Gary Hoffman
Gary,
Have you used Reunion of the Macintosh (or now Windows)? It is a commercially available package which was originally constructed using HyperCard and, therefore, uses the "hypermedia" approach of buttons, etc. I have used it on my Macintosh for several years. I mention Reunion only to demonstrate that a hypermedia approach to genealogy is feasible. But it requires lots of utilities to maintain connections, sort, etc., etc.
Jim Pool
---------------------------------------------------------------
Tuesday, April 12, 1994 11:25:33 PM
Message
From: Gary Hoffman
Subject: Re: "HyperRoots"
To: J.C.T. Pool,jpool@delilah.ccsf.caltech.edu,Internet
Thanks for your comments, Jim.
I got a long way down the road in writing a HyperCard program for genealogy back in 1987/88, but found the task daunting. I was the first in line in Salt Lake when PAF for the Mac shipped in November 88. I have also seen Reunion demonstrated and I think it's nice.
I think now that the "Hyper" prefix has lost its hype. I now prefer "CyberRoots" for the WWW Genealogy plan now that this prefix is in vogue and implies a network connection that hyper does not. Watch your traffic for more comments from me on this.
Cheers,
Gary
---------------------------------------------------------------
Tuesday, April 12, 1994 11:30:58 PM
Message
From: Gary Hoffman
Subject: Re: Proposed WWW Genealogy Project
To: Stephen A. Wood,saw@hallc1.cebaf.gov,Internet
Steve,
Thanks for your support for this idea (I now favor CyberRoots" for a one-word tag).
To more fully demonstrate its capability, I would like one of my demo genealogy pages to link to an ancestor on another WWW server. Would yours be available to host a few such genealogy pages? Can I send you a page or two which I can link to from my Wallace Jones demo?
Thanks again.
Gary
---------------------------------------------------------------
Wednesday, April 13, 1994 11:55:24 PM
Message
From: David Beakhust,daveb@blaize.win-uk.net,Internet
Subject: Re: Proposed WWW Genealogy Project
To: Gary Hoffman
>Gary Hoffman (ghoffman@UCSD.EDU) wrote:
>Introduction: With the advent of the World-Wide Web concept
>on the Internet, we finally have the tools to easily create a
>coordinated interlinked distributed worldwide genealogy
>database. This document describes how such a system might be
>put together very simply using a format such as HyperText
>Markup Language or HTML. This proposal is subject
>
>[lotsa stuff deleted for brevity]
>
>This is a very powerful concept, and from the point of the
>genealogist/family historian, and historians in general,
>would be a godsend. Looked at from another perspective,
>though, it poses significant sociopolitical problems which
>must be addressed before implementation in order to assure
>that such a data base would not be misused. There may have to
>be restrictions on the types of data that could be placed in
>the database (e.g., no information pertaining to political
>affiliations, genetic diseases, etc.) which could be used
>against living persons by governments, institutions,
>employers, or individuals. It might also be wise, as many
>governments have done with vital records, to limit access to
>records of living individuals (or perhaps restrict the
>database to persons deceased for some number of years).
>Issues of privacy and civil rights are bound to be raised in
>any case.
>
>Jeff Johnson redhead@photon.com
Sadly, I suspect the abuse of such info is probably already going on, through computerised 'lifestyle surveys' and the like, which when linked to medical and credit records permit business and insurance interest to go along way towards their goals of avoiding risk. Protections secure enough to prevent abuse by smart political and business interests (or by criminals) would almost certainly kill even the haphazard distribution of data on the net, and close all public records, even to what the genuine genealogist would reckon to be legitimate use. Practice is already ahead of the law in some countries, for example, our (UK) data protection registrar can in theory regulate the keeping of data on a computer, but is almost powerless to prevent on-line combination of multiply sourced data for (eg) credit and lifestyle reference. Our government, like most others, simply will not regulate the 'data market' for fear of losing business to less scrupulous territories, and seem to take the view that what needs to be regulated is the storage and disclosure of data itself, not the means available to search and select the data. The issue of hereditary disease is interesting because naive genealogists would willingly and openly discuss such things as a another piece of evidence to link families. If you have an unusual name like mine, even the exclusion of modern records would not be sufficient protection. DON'T DO IT.
My opinions are my own.
--
David J Beakhust
daveb@blaize.win-uk.net
+44 794 524322
==
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Thursday, April 14, 1994 12:48:10 PM
Message
From: Paul Lieberman,pml@hopper.itc.virginia.edu,Internet
Subject: GenSoft, JewishGen and HyperRoots
To: Gary Hoffman
I applaud your bold vision in proposing this superhighway database for genealogists. If we could ever get the Mormon's and Nat. Archives holdings in it, its value would be immense. Even without, it would be highly useful.
I'd like to see this discussed by the techies in GenSoft, but
unfortunately, we at U.Va. don't get it. Do you know how else I might access it? (Requests to my sysop have gone unanswered.)
You should post your ideas on JewishGen. It is a very active and intelligent group. We have already aired many issues of global access to gen. data with respect to the question of the Mormons' uses of gen. data of Jews. You might look into the archives at NYSERnet for past discussions.
There has also been much work done in JewishGen re: making raw data available to all. Check it out!
Paul M Lieberman pml@hopper.itc.virginia.edu
Researching: LIEBERMAN/Odessa, FINK/Odessa,
GELLER(T)/Rohatyn, Galicia, FRIEDFERTIG/near Lemberg, WASSERSTROM/Tiszafured, BRIEGER/Eger, GROSZ/Oros,Jako, STOLCZ/Bacs, SCHWARTZ/Tiszafured?, BRAVERMAN/Memphis, STOFF/Odessa?,VOLK/Odessa?,LIGERMAN/Odessa?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Friday, April 15, 1994 9:04:10 AM
Message
From: Gary Hoffman
Subject: Re(2): Proposed WWW Genealogy Project
To: sjh@math.purdue.edu,Internet
Sorry you had problems. Here try this URL:
http://irpsbbs.ucsd.edu/gene/genedemo.html
That should do it for you.
Cheers,
Gary
---------------------------------------------------------------
Tuesday, April 19, 1994 7:43:52 AM
Message
From: Gary Hoffman
Subject: Pt II, WWW Genealogy Proposal
To: GEDCOM-L@VM1.NoDak.EDU,Internet
ROOTS-L@VM1.NoDak.EDU,Internet
lines-l@vm1.nodak.edu,Internet
WWW Genealogy Proposal, Part II
Thanks to all who responded to the earlier proposal, now labeled Part I. NCSA reports that 50,000 Internet users per month are downloading its Mosaic applicaton and that 300,000 copies are in use world-wide. Those number will grow as World Wide Web connections circle the globe. This document responds to some concerns regarding the earlier proposal and adds to that proposal. Both are available on a WWW server using URL
"http://irpsbbs.ucsd.edu/gene/genedemo.html."
What Do You Call This Thing?
I now favor "CyberRoots" as the one-word name for the idea of storing genealogy information in distributed WWW servers to which interested people may link to download information about their ancestors. Other suggestions or alternate spellings are welcome. I'd especially like to hear if there has been a previous use of this term. Some suggested alternatives include NetRoots, FamiLinks, and AncestraLinks.
Privacy Issues
Some have suggested that using WWW to distributed genealogy information would allow anyone to snoop into individual's private files. This would not be the case for the following reasons:
1. Only WWW servers can send out information. Mosaic or other WWW browsers do not transmit files, but only receive them from WWW servers.
2. Files representing living persons would be retained locally. Generally, CyberRoots browsers would maintain files on their immediate family and a few generations back on their local computer. Actually, genealogical interest in living persons is limited to immediate family anyway. These files may contain HTTP links to other files (parent or siblings) that may reside locally or may reside on a remote WWW server. By following these links, the user can seamlessly build a pedigree chart on their screen.
3. Links from ancestors to descendants are too difficult to maintain. The custodians of CyberRoots archives will have their hands full certifying the parentage or upward links of the files in their WWW server. They will not be interested in maintaining the downward links to descendants maintained on other servers because their number will be too large.
4. CyberRoots resembles but differs from LDS Ancestral File. The CyberRoots concept differs from the LDS Ancestral File practice of tracing descendants down to living persons, whose identities must then be protected. But it does correspond to the LDS "Four Generation" concept whereby LDS members are responsible for establishing four generations of ancestry. Beyond those four generations, the genealogical community at large maintains the database. In CyberRoots practice, various "custodians" will maintain portions of the distributed database on a voluteer basis and will freely publish their information on their WWW servers to anyone on the network. The LDS Ancestral File is centrally maintained and its distribution is tightly controlled.
5. The demonstration is only a prototype. In my CyberRoots demonstration, I included information on living persons only for demonstration purposes. In actual implementation, you would view HTML files on my family only if I privately (or securely) distributed them to you. However, anyone sharing a more distant ancestor would be allowed to link to that ancestor's HTML file on my WWW server through the network.
6. Privacy will remain a concern. All CyberRootsers, both browsers and custodians, will need to remain alert to breaches of privacy and move to close any gaps in the system, should they occur. I believe that the genealogical community will be very vigilant in this matter.
State of the Demonstration
I have worked on my demo files all week and have added grey-scale and color photos, biographies, pedigree charts, and descendant charts. I have also linked some place names ito a geographical database to give background in locality information. I have recorded one audio file but hope to edit it to reduce its size from 350Kbytes to around 50 KBytes. I hope to add a video clip soon. All these files (except the locality information) come off of one server. The next step is to demonstrate how the hyperlinks on a series of files can just as easily reach related files on other servers. This should be implemented in the coming week. Stay tuned.
Files conversion issues
All my demo files are hand coded. We need to be able to convert data from current file type such as GEDCOM into HTML format using simple text processing applications. Several people have volunteered their time or their previously written code. I expect a GEDCOM to HTML converter to be available generally within 90 days.
The storage requirements of many little files are more burdensome than one large file containing the same amount of data. We need to find ways to store data in large databases and then extract it upon request to transmit it in HTML format. The challenge of on-the-fly conversion is to return the HTML file to the browser within a reasonable time following the request, something on the order of a few seconds. For intermittent networks, such as FidoNet, this may not be possible, or else the browser would have to tolerate lengthy delays.
Data Formats.
HTML is a markup language; it does not specify content. But since it is free-form, there should be some tolerance in the content specification of a CyberRoots document. For example, field labels need not be displayed if they are empty. Also, some fields (such as the name) can be arbitrarily large to allow for mega-names in certain cultures. a WWW browser such as Mosaic should ignore formatting tags it does not understand. This attribute will allow transmission of GEDCOM tags in an HTML file as long as they follow the markup protocol: <tag> text </tag>. This will allow for the development of an WWW GEDCOM browser that can display the HTML document in particular, rather than generalized, ways.
In that regard, Mosaic's developers at NCSA are promising that version 2.0 will include "forms." If so, it would be a simple matter to define a family form or individual form and allow requested data to fill in the blanks. This has the potential for reducing the amount of data that need be transmitted but might preclude a certain display creativity some compilers might prefer. I suspect we will find room for both the formal and informal CyberRoots file.
Further Discussions.
Contributions of any type pertinent to this topic are welcome. But to concerve bandwidth, I believe we should channel most message traffic regarding CyberRoots to the GEDCOM-L mailing list. (After all, we are talking about a form of
"genealogical data communication" albeit not _the_ GEDCOM we all know and love.)
If the traffic gets too intense, we can create a separate list. Meanwhile, we promise progress reports to the roots-L and other general genealogy discussion groups on the Internet and other networks.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Tuesday, April 19, 1994 1:09:34 PM
GenWeb Item
From: "John F. Chandler" <JCHBN%CUVMB.BITNET@VM1.NoDak.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pt II, WWW Genealogy Proposal
To: Multiple recipients of list GEDCOM-L <GEDCOM-L@VM1.NoDak.EDU>
In-Reply-To: ghoffman@UCSD.EDU message of Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:43:52 PDT
I note that none of the questions I raised in response to "Part I" were addressed in this second mailing, except very indirectly. It's all very well to worry about privacy issues, but I think it's far more important to worry about accuracy. If the proposed data base is to be more than an amusing toy, it must have mechanisms for control and reconciliation of information so that the individual contributions can be linked into a coherent and rational whole. An uncoordinated net of random volunteers, each maintaining a server by his or her own whims, will not provide a balanced database, no matter how good their intentions. Also, the more contributors there are, the more likely it is that disagreements will arise among them -- for each disagreement about the facts, at least one part of the database will be wrong, and perhaps all. What to do about the fanatic who insists on tracing lines on worthless evidence back to Charlemagne or Julius Caesar or Mohammed or Zeus? (or you name it...) On the other hand, the first three I mentioned undeniably *do* have descendants, so it would be foolish to exclude lines solely on the basis of the names in them -- what's needed is some rational discrimination based on the evidence, and I ask how that can be incorporated into this scheme. Any ideas?
John
---------------------------------------------------------------
Tuesday, April 19, 1994 2:26:04 PM
Message
From: eggertj@ll.mit.edu,Internet
Subject: Re: Pt II, WWW Genealogy Proposal
To: Gary Hoffman
About the proposed WWW Genealogical project:
> 3. Links from ancestors to descendants are too difficult
> to maintain. The custodians of CyberRoots archives will have
> their hands full certifying the parentage or upward links of
> the files in their WWW server. They will not be interested
> in maintaining the downward links to descendants maintained
> on other servers because their number will be too large.
Links from ancestors to descendants are no more difficult to maintain than links from descendants to ancestors. This is trivially true, because they are the same links viewed in two different ways.
Any genealogical researcher worth his/her salt will maintain not only ancestry, but also downward links to descendants. These people are called cousins, and knowledge of cousins is not only interesting, it is intrinsically useful.
And who worries about large numbers of descendants, anyway? Computers can handle the large numbers. Research and data entry time limitations are the operative factor, and if we share data widely, these become less important.
To handle the privacy issue, shouldn't this be an automatic feature of the GEDCOM->HTML translation software? Seems the easiest thing to me.
One thing the distributed genealogy concept should take into account is how the user will likely use the system. If I find that Joe Jones has an interesting Eggert ancestry that links with mine, I will expect to be able to download it and link it in my own database. This essentially destroys the distributed nature of the database, but I cannot allow the chance that Joe Jones will leave his position at arbitrary.com and that his data will no longer be available to me. To make this truly useful, one would need some automerge, autoupdate, and autounmerge capability in my database software. That this is not presently available is problematic.
A question that remains unanswered is how much ancestries available in computer-readable genealogies overlap? If not much, then the WWW distributed genealogy won't be worth much. If a lot, then it will be great.
And finally, will this help me do genealogical research more quickly, more comfortably, more enjoyably than, say, the Roots Surname List? I really wonder if and how.
=Jim eggertj@ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
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Tuesday, April 19, 1994 2:54:42 PM
Message
From: Jon Brinkmann,jvb7u@fermi.clas.virginia.edu,Internet
Subject: Re: Pt II, WWW Genealogy Proposal
To: Gary Hoffman
> What Do You Call This Thing?
> I now favor "CyberRoots" as the one-word name for the idea
> of storing genealogy information in distributed WWW servers
> to which interested people may link to download information
> about their ancestors. Other suggestions or alternate
> spellings are welcome. I'd especially like to hear if there
> has been a previous use of this term. Some suggested
> alternatives include NetRoots, FamiLinks, and AncestraLinks.
I guess everyone has their own favorites. Mine are "Gen-Web" (modeled after Cliff's "Gen-Serv" and "Genealogy WebServer".
Jon
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Tuesday, April 19, 1994 5:22:39 PM
Message
From: MR BILL A MINNICK,FGGS63A@prodigy.com,Internet
Subject: Cyber Roots (WWW Genealogy Demo Page)
To: Gary Hoffman
Gary, Great idea, CyberRoots! I have a few questions/comments:
1. In the CyberRoots design, please provide for a separate source data base with the option for links from the various HTML documents on individuals, marriages, biographies, etc. Please consider providing both a description of the source, including author, title, present location, call number, etc. and an option for storage of scans of original docs such as birth certificates, etc. You will also need to document the contributor, who could be contacted by other researchers in case of conflict. Lets go for broke on Cyber Roots!
2. Also please design CyberRoots to deal with the posting and resolution of conflicts, so that anyone can participate in the process by adding new info easily to the system. You may need to provide for multiple links if, for example, conflicting info gives a person two possible fathers. Or perhaps you might want to link to the most probable father, and have a conflict pool of info on the father link. Each link and each fact in the data base needs a link to its own conflict info pool. An analysis of all conflict pools would provide for dynamic assessment of overall data base reliability.
Who will have the authority to "correct" a name, place, date or link which has been established by a previous contributor?
3. Have you done any projections of the resources which might be consumed by this data base? Your proposal indicated you feel access charges may have to be added in the future to support all of this.
4. The main body of researchers available and willing to work on this data base are the 50 to 75 year old, primarily retired folks. The key to rapid success of CyberRoots is to get these folks to work on data conversion and data entry. When they see the progress and the quick access, they will be motivated to do the missing research, I believe.
80 percent of the potential contributors have or will have shortly an IBM Compatible 386/486 PC; It will be important to have Mosaic or its equivalent fully operational on this platform and easy to learn for these people.
5. Please give ample consideration to preventing some creep from creating a virus or other scheme to destroy all the work which will be put into CyberRoots.
* I am heading up the Austin Project which has gathered 50,000 names in about 75 separate Austin surname data bases to date. This has been supported by the Austin Families Association of America (AFAOA). We also have over 100 digital scanned photos dating back as far as 1848 of some individuals in these data bases. We are collecting good source information on many of these Austins, and have been writing biographical sketches for them, including digital scanned images of houses, family photos, etc. in the text. In other words, we are ready to make rapid progress toward building CyberRoots; just tell us when you want to start.
Sorry about coming at you via PRODIGY. As soon as I can get Mosaic or its equivalent, I'll get on Internet. I'd like to avoid having to learn UNIX. I and millions of other CyberRoots "workers" simply want an easy MS Windows interface to CyberRoots.
You are welcome to post this response on soc.roots; sorry I can't do it directly yet.
I must thank James P. Jones, jjones@nas.nasa.gov for passing along your CyberRoots proposals.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Wednesday, April 20, 1994 12:07:17 PM
Message
From: Chris Burgoyne,cjb@eng.cam.ac.uk,Internet
Subject: cyberroots
To: Gary Hoffman
I am interested in your proposal for mosaic applications for Gedcom files. I am professionally interested in getting a database of bridges set up, and privately interested in genealogy. So I guess trying to set up a suitable system would give me a bit of practice before I get a student going on the bridges database.
I don't think I am ready at the moment to commit myself to making my studies public, at least until I know what it can do, but could you please add my name to any circulation list for anything you send out about this project in the future.
I think it is an excellent idea. The most important thing will be to get the core specification of the data format specified so that we all work to a similar standard.
I wish you luck.
Chris Burgoyne
Structures Research Group
University of Cambridge
cjb@eng.cam.ac.uk
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Wednesday, April 20, 1994 10:38:17 PM
GenWeb Item
From: Rafal Prinke <RAFALP@PLPUAM11.BITNET>
Subject: WWW validation
To: Multiple recipients of list GEDCOM-L <GEDCOM-L@NDSUVM1.BITNET>
"John F. Chandler" <JCHBN@CUVMB.BITNET> writes:
>What to do about the fanatic who insists on tracing lines
>on worthless evidence back to Charlemagne or Julius Caesar or
>Mohammed or Zeus? (or you name it...)
That is the greatest problem I can see with the WWW project. In fact, it is a problem of ANY project that intends to merge joint research, even if done by very well meaning scholars. Besides, connecting myriads of people by hands seems impossible - there would have to be some kind of automated procedure.
>On the other hand, the first three I mentioned undeniably
>*do* have descendants, so it would be foolish to exclude
>lines solely on the basis of the names in them.
Well, as far as I can recall Julius Caesar had just one son with Cleopatra and that died young :-)
Best regards
Rafal
---------------------------------------------------------------
Thursday, April 21, 1994 12:39:15 PM
GenWeb Item
From: Gina Gestautas <NORTH@DRYCAS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WWW validation
To: Multiple recipients of list GEDCOM-L <GEDCOM-L@NDSUVM1.BITNET>
Hmm not to rain on anyone's parade.. but the actual automated search of at least research lines has been running for a while now as the Tiny Tafel system. You basically summarize your research interests by creating lines of SOUNDEXed names followed by timeline and geographical information. Of course.. this is very brief.. but hey.. the amount of information as we know.. is monumental. The point is to get people who are researching similar lines together to exchange hopefully MUCH more detailed (and hopefully correct) information.
As someone here described distributed servers, I thought of this system. The whole process was described at GENTECH 94 in detail by one of the biggest proponents of this system. Each site collects Tiny Tafel (or TT) files which it keeps on its local system. To use this system, you must first contribute a TT yourself. You then gain access to the information not only at your local site.. but at all TT server sites around the world. From the lecture, it appears that each request is processed distributedly throughout the TT network and nightly you receive a report of all sites that have reported results. The point is that you have access to ALL the information, and yet you do nothing but put in a request at your local site. I know that this does not deal with alot of the complex research issues that you are discussing here.. but I find it really hard to believe that with as many extensions as we keep finding as we examine the work of each vendor we will be able to process much more than very BASIC information on any kind of genealogical WWW server. Although it would be a beginning.. I would rather get to a SOURCE of information that could possibly be 1. a relation, and 2. more willing to share alot of PERSONAL type info that might never get to a formal computer file.
I have been interested to hear feedback for example on Cliff Manis' GEDCOM project and what kind of results he has obtained while collecting all kinds of GEDCOM files. How about it Cliff? ;)
YiS, (My new signoff since this is often used for scouting as Yours in Scouting for genealogy.. I propose.. Yours in Searching :)
Gina Gestautas, researcher in the rough
---------------------------------------------------------------
Saturday, April 23, 1994 10:18:56 AM
Message
From: Paul Coddington,paulc@npac.syr.edu,Internet
Subject: CyberRoots
To: Gary Hoffman
I think this is an excellent idea. Perhaps a good start would be to write a translation utility that would take data from some current database formats and convert it into HTML form, like your example document. That would get people using it and interested.
If we could get the Mormons to put up a WWW server we'd really have something!
Dr Paul Coddington
Northeast Parallel Architectures Center
Phone: (315) 443-4883
111 College Place, 3-110 CST
FAX: (315) 443-1973
Syracuse University
Email: paulc@npac.syr.edu
Syracuse, NY 13244-4100