A Hellenistic Error in Lundahl (2022o): I Never Said That Mr. Lundahl!
Kevin R. Henke
September 15, 2022
In Henke (2022b), I said the following about the Hellenistic Era and Alexander the Great:
“I didn’t bother in Henke (2022a) to discuss the origin of the Hellenistic Era and Alexander the Great’s contribution to it. Nevertheless, McDaniel (2019) deals with the topic and begins her discussions with the following statement:
“Finally, we have what is perhaps our greatest piece of evidence in favor of the existence of Alexander the Great: the Hellenistic Era (c. 323 – c. 31 BC).”
In response, Lundahl (2022f) gives the following rambling reply on the Hellenistic Era, which is incredibly bizarre and includes an absolutely baseless claim about nuclear wars before Noah’s Flood:
“McDaniel, 14.VI.2019 [McDaniel (2019)]
The Hellenistic era shows it started with Alexander
Kevin R. Henke, 1.III.2022 [Henke (2022a)]
no mention.
My reply
The Hellenistic era is a kind of cultural community (to which among others Apollonius of Rhodes belonged) and a community usually knows how it started.
Like New York knows - independently of old archives, which actually also are accessible as confirmation - that it began with Nieuw Amsterdam.
Exactly as "the Jewish Church" knows it started with God making a covenant with Moses, and that it later split into Jewish proper and Samaritan after the rule of King Solomon.
Exactly as the Catholic Church knows it started with Christ showing Himself to be God by the Resurrection and making a covenant with His chief disciples, Matthew 28, followed by the sending of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2.” [my emphasis]
Lundahl (2022o), as usual, breaks up this bolded section from my quotation of Lundahl (2022f) and makes additional comments that are largely irrelevant or inaccurate:
“Lundahl (2022f): ‘The Hellenistic era is a kind of cultural community (to which among others Apollonius of Rhodes belonged) and a community usually knows how it started.’
Note : "a commnity usually knows how it started" is the best proof of Alexander the Great - the historians, the texts from back then, just express that knowledge. But this is exactly the same argument that Henke would disagree with when it came to Catholics knowing they came from Jesus, or Jews and Samaritans that they came from Moses, or Moses he came from Abraham and ultimately Abraham he came from Adam via Noah.
Henke wants to have it both ways - the Hellenistic community knows it started with Alexander the Great, but the claims involving theologically relevant miracles suddenly cease to fit that pattern. That is why I continue the statement with:
Lundahl (2022f): ‘Like New York knows - independently of old archives, which actually also are accessible as confirmation - that it began with Nieuw Amsterdam.
Exactly as "the Jewish Church" knows it started with God making a covenant with Moses, and that it later split into Jewish proper and Samaritan after the rule of King Solomon.
Exactly as the Catholic Church knows it started with Christ showing Himself to be God by the Resurrection and making a covenant with His chief disciples, Matthew 28, followed by the sending of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2.’
After this I give three theoretic objections (not taken from McDaniel) which one could use to impugn the principle.
Notice that in the above italicized comments that even Lundahl (2022f) admits that I made no mention in Henke (2022a) on the claim in McDaniel (2019) that “The Hellenistic era shows it started with Alexander.” In Henke (2022b), at most, I was willing to admit that Alexander the Great contributed to the Hellenistic Era, but I never endorsed the claim in McDaniel (2019) that Alexander the Great started it. I simply quoted and reported on what she said.
Now, it turns out that the concept of a “Hellenistic Era” is a relatively recent development. Martin (1990, p. 124) states that no historian from ancient times through the Enlightenment recognized such a period in history. It was first coined by J.G. Droysen in the 19th century (Martin 1990, p. 124). By definition, the “Hellenistic Era” began with Alexander the Great and ended with Caesar Augustus in 31 BC (Martin 1990, p. 124). Nevertheless, archeology certainly confirms that Alexander the Great was a very powerful and influential leader as I showed in Henke (2022a) and Henke (2022b). If historians and archeologists want to section off part of European/Middle Eastern history and credit Alexander the Great for starting it, they might be able to justify that attribution. Nevertheless, before I would accept the claim in McDaniel (2019) that “The Hellenistic era shows it started with Alexander”, I would like to see more evidence that Alexander the Great was solely responsible for starting what historians now call the Hellenistic Era and that other individuals and events were relatively inconsequential.
Notice, that Lundahl (2022o) confuses and tries to equate an artificial time period in history, the Hellenistic Era, with a population of ancient humans, the “Hellenistic Community.” McDaniel (2019) never uses the term “Hellenistic community.” Lundahl (2022o) then complains that because I supposedly endorsed McDaniel’s claim that Alexander the Great started the Hellenistic Era (which I did not) that I should just believe whatever the Hellenistic, Jewish and Roman Catholic communities say about their supposed origins and founding fathers. How can Lundahl (2022o) claim that I want to “have it both ways” when I never endorsed the claim in McDaniel (2019) that Alexander the Great started the Hellenistic Era and when, contrary to Lundahl (2022o), communities do not necessarily have an accurate knowledge of their founding fathers? Why should we blindly trust anything that ancient historians said about Alexander the Great if it has not been confirmed by archeology or other external evidence? That’s the whole point that I stressed in both Henke (2022a) and Henke (2022b). Also, the origins of various communities are often likely based on myths rather than history. Moses and Abraham are probably myths according to the archeological research done by Finkelstein and Silberman (2001) and others, but so is the idea that the Japanese Emperor descended from a Sun goddess (Henke 2022dn). Unlike Alexander the Great, there’s absolutely no evidence that Moses, Abraham or a Japanese Sun goddess ever existed. It’s also possible that the Marcionites had a better understanding of Paul’s teachings than the proto-Orthodox church, and that very few or none of Jesus’ actual words and actions are in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (see Henke 2022ei). If Lundahl (2022o) really wants me to accept what McDaniel (2019) says about the start of the Hellenistic Era, she or others need to demonstrate that Alexander the Great and, only him, was responsible for the start of a time period created by much later historians. Furthermore, Mr. Lundahl needs to find some good evidence that the Jews, Roman Catholics and Japanese traditionalists are right about how their communities actually started.
As I stated in Henke (2022a), the following are the only statements that I attempted to demonstrate about Alexander the Great using archeological evidence directly related to him and when he lived:
“My proposal or hypothesis for testing the existence of Alexander the Great is very conservative. I simply propose that Alexander the Great was:
1. a human being that lived in the 4th century BC and not a mythical or fictional being.
2. he was a military leader that had an extraordinary political effect over a wide region of at least the Middle East.”
That’s it! Notice that I never said anything about the Hellenistic Era or that “…the Hellenistic community knows it started with Alexander the Great.”
Furthermore, as I have repeatedly stated numerous times in Henke (2022a), Henke (2022b), and Henke (2022ad), history deals with evidence and not “proof.” Proof is for mathematics and logic. So, Lundahl (2022o) is also absolutely wrong to claim that:
“’a commnity [sic] usually knows how it started’ is the best proof of Alexander the Great” [my emphasis]
I concluded the following in Henke (2022b) on the best way to demonstrate that Alexander the Great and other past individuals existed, and again it has NOTHING to do with any “communities” that Mr. Lundahl and others might believe in:
“In my earlier emails, Henke (2022a) and this essay, I argue that the history of Alexander the Great is far more reliable than Genesis 3, that contemporary archeology is needed to confirm the validity of ancient written histories, and that ancient historical accounts and contemporary archeology must work together to cautiously provide reliable history.”
References:
Finkelstein, I. and N.A. Silberman. 2001. The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of its Sacred Texts: The Free Press: New York, USA, 385pp.
Martin, L.H. 1990. “The Encyclopedia Hellenistica and Christian Origins” Biblical Theology Bulletin, v. 20, pp. 123-127.
McDaniel, S. 2019. “What Evidence is There for the Existence of Alexander the Great? Quite a Lot.” https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/06/14/what-evidence-is-there-for-the-existence-of-alexander-the-great-quite-a-lot/ (last accessed February 27, 2022).