RE: Jon Steingard and leaving Christianity….

Post date: May 31, 2020 3:31:45 PM

https://www.instagram.com/p/CAbHm10lt7w/

First of all, I am sorry for your experience and I appreciate your honesty. Many people are not honest with their beliefs and struggles and doubts. In my option, you (and many who have similar experiences), are victims of a church system and Christians who have failed them. As a Christian, I am sorry for that. I have been a student of Jesus since 2001 or so and I feel that the Church has failed many people and is in need of a reformation. I wrote a paper about that and you (or anyone else) can find it here:

https://sites.google.com/site/worldviewcafe/why-worldview-caf-the-need-for-apologetics/an-argument-for-a-new-reformation

If I may share some things to think about (I will try to be brief)….

(1) Myth: Real Christians Don’t Doubt.

I am convinced that everyone doubts to some extent (Christians and non-Christians) but few actually admit it. Christians; however, seem to be pressured by other Christians and churches to not have any questions or doubts. Many are being told that, “God is good and everything is awesome, so if you don't believe this all the time, then something is wrong with you. You really don't believe or you are not mature in your faith like you should be....” And if you do have doubts and questions, then you need to leave the church.

It seems to me that these Christians and churches that hinder Christians from asking questions and label doubt as sin are Foundationalist to an extent. They see all Christian belief as incorrigible (incapable of being correct) and indubitable (impossible to doubt; unquestionable) and therefore dogmatic. A basic book or course on Philosophy will explain the various kinds of certainty and the different types of knowledge we can have as humans. Apodictic or incontestable certainty (promoted by Rene Descartes 1596-1650) is considered the

* highest standard: requires the necessary (absolute) truth of its object

* indubitability (exclusion of all doubt) and incorrigibility (incapable of being corrected or amended)

* it's denial is a contradiction

* guarantees truth in every possible world

This type of certainty seems to be what these Christians and churches adhere to when it come to their beliefs.

However, most Christians (and even non-Christians) will admit that human knowledge is fallible or probable. In fact, apodictic truth or principles can only be used as the source of our beliefs about math, logic and universals and so they can never be the basis of empirical knowledge, not informative about the world, and cannot tell us anything about religious convictions or religious knowledge.

Most Christians believe that only God’s truth as recorded in Bible is infallible (certain, indubitable, wholly true).

Only God is omniscient, true, perfectly good, and omnipotent. Our knowledge, on the other hand, is partial or incomplete. At times we are wrong because we are ignorant of the facts but God knows everything, actual and possible (Psa 139:1-6). And his knowledge always corresponds to reality (is truth), Exod 3:6, Num 23:19; Deut 32:4). The Bible is infallible (certain, indubitable and true) but our understanding and knowledge of it is only fallible; our understanding of it changes.

Moreover, we usually do not question something (e.g., our beliefs) unless something happens such as our exposure to other beliefs or worldviews, personal tragedy, suffering, etc. However, these Christians and churches don’t ask the doubting Christian WHY they are doubting and questioning.

A video discussing this is: Can Christians Have Doubts about God?

https://www.str.org/video/can-christians-have-doubts-about-god#.XhH4Mdl7mm4

It's time that the Church recognize that asking good questions and doing some good critical thinking is not antithetical to faith. In fact, I would argue that it is the very basis for faith, properly understood… We must remember that "all truth is God's truth" and we should not shy away from it. If what we have is true, we should not be afraid to think about it, investigate it and question it. If it's true, what do we have to fear? —Daniel Carrington (from, Should Christians be Anti-Intellectual?)

For more about this see:

1. My post at https://sites.google.com/site/worldviewcafe/why-worldview-caf-the-need-for-apologetics

2. Re: Joshua Harris.

https://credohouse.org/blog/how-not-to-react-to-joshua-harris-announcement

3. Former Atheists. https://apologetics315.com/?s=former+atheist

4. Former Atheists, Critics and Skeptics on their conversion to Christianity at

https://jamesbishopblog.wordpress.com/category/testimonies

5. If Christianity is True, Why Do So Many Kids Have Doubts Today? By Natasha Crain | February 28, 2019 http://christianmomthoughts.com/if-christianity-is-true-why-do-so-many-kids-have-doubts-today/

6. DOES THE CHURCH NEED A NEW REFORMATION? AN OPEN LETTER TO ANYONE WHO TEACHES THE BIBLE (What I Never Learned in Church)

https://sites.google.com/site/worldviewcafe/why-worldview-caf-the-need-for-apologetics/an-argument-for-a-new-reformation

7. #4 Christian Doubt

Where Dr. William Lane Craig addresses: Christian doubt - Distinguishing between essential and nonessential doctrines, Christian doubt - Misunderstanding Christian doctrine can fuel doubt, Christian doubt - Does confusion about Christianity make it untrue?

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/christian-doubt

8. 12 Diagnostic Questions I Ask of Those Doubting Their Faith by C Michael Patton.

https://credohouse.org/blog/12-diagnostic-questions-i-ask-of-those-doubting-their-faith

9. Doubt Your Doubts

http://www.travisdickinson.com/doubt-your-doubts

http://www.travisdickinson.com/what-is-intellectual-doubt/

http://www.travisdickinson.com/permission-to-doubt-your-faith/

10. What I Needed to Hear When I Was An Atheist (and How I Needed to Heart It)

Posted on March 19, 2015 by llamapacker

https://llamapacker.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/what-i-needed-to-hear-when-i-was-an-atheist-and-how-i-needed-to-heart-it-2/

11. A Plea to Have Mercy on Those Who Doubt

https://credohouse.org/blog/a-plea-to-have-mercy-on-those-who-doubt

12. If You Were a REAL Christian, You Wouldn’t Doubt

http://www.wanderintruth.com/2017/10/14/if-you-were-a-real-christian-you-wouldnt-doubt

13. Re: Doubt

https://credohouse.org/blog/category/doubt

http://www.wanderintruth.com/2017/10/14/if-you-were-a-real-christian-you-wouldnt-doubt/

https://credohouse.org/blog/if-you-were-a-real-christian-you-wouldnt-doubt-part-2-is-there-a-reason-to-doubt-god-ever

https://www.wanderintruth.com/about-the-author

http://www.wanderintruth.com/2017/05/22/crisis-in-church/

https://wanderintruth.com/2019/08/25/if-i-were-to-leave-christianity-this-would-be-why/

https://wanderintruth.com/2019/02/27/the-traumatic-nature-of-deconversion/

14. Andy Mineo’s struggles

https://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/ITheArrow.asp

http://www.badchristian.com/bc_podcast/andy-mineo-vs-christianity-status-quo

15. John Mark McMillan’s struggles

https://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/MercuryandLightning.asp

BadChristian Podcast #304 and 410. found https://soundcloud.com/bcpod

16. Gungor

https://relevantmagazine.com/issues/issue-94/the-evolving-faith-of-lisa-gungor

https://relevantmagazine.com/current/why-are-people-so-upset-about-what-gungor-said; https://relevantmagazine.com/issues/issue-94/the-evolving-faith-of-lisa-gungor/;

BadChristian Podcast # 26, 110, 262, 301 at https://soundcloud.com/bcpod; https://world.wng.org/2014/08/gungor_drifts_from_biblical_orthodoxy;

17. https://www-christianpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.christianpost.com/amp/gungor-i-dont-believe-in-god-anymore-227508/?usqp=mq331AQECAFYAQ%3D%3D&amp_js_v=0.1#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

18. Dealing With Doubt by Gary R. Habermas

http://www.garyhabermas.com/books/dealing_with_doubt/dealing_with_doubt.htm

19. The Thomas Factor. Using Your Doubts to Draw Closer to God by Gary R. Habermas

http://www.garyhabermas.com/books/thomas_factor/thomas_factor.htm

(2) Not all Christians and churches are the same.

You bring up many good questions and doubts that many people share

( https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/are-young-people-really-leaving-christianity/

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/yet-another-student-survey-confirming-the-need-for-case-making )

and I want to point out that many mature Christians (many of whom were atheists or agnostics) have attempted to provide logical answers to them (with and without using the Bible).

An illustration: A 1st year, freshman Chemistry student will know something about chemistry but not more than a 2nd year sophomore Chemistry student. These 1st and 2nd year students will know something about chemistry but still not know more than a Bachelor of Chemistry. A Bachelor will know more but not more than a Master and so on to a Dr student of Chemistry. Every expert/professional Chemist began their career as an immature, ignorant, less informed, and less knowledgeable Chemistry student, but over time, hard work, and effort, they became more mature students of Chemistry. They didn’t get here overnight. They had to take more chemistry classes, conduct more chemistry lab tests, etc and so they know more (have more understanding, more learning, more tools, greater ability to articulate and explain) than either a Master and Bachelor. So, one begins college by obtaining general education in a field of study/interest. As time goes on, after putting in the hard work, taking more credit hours, studying, researching, they learn more and obtain greater understanding, wisdom, and specialization and eventually one becomes an expert or teacher of that field. (Note: there are also some people who claim to know Chemistry but have not taken a single class or the only class they did take was in high school.)

So, just like not all chemistry students are the same (some know more about Chemistry than others), not all students of Christ or Christians are the same.

Every expert/professional student of Christ began their Christian career as an immature, ignorant, less informed, and less knowledgeable student, but over time, hard work, and effort, they became more mature students. As time goes on, after putting in the hard work, taking more “credit hours”, studying, researching, some students of Christ learn more and obtain greater understanding, wisdom, and specialization and eventually one becomes an expert or teacher. In my experience, there are many immature, ignorant, less informed, and less knowledgeable Christians and many are still “1st year students” even after many years. (See the link above for more on this.) They are probably saved and know something about God, Christ, world, etc but not more than a more mature Christian who has spent the time, energy, and effort to study and to ask questions and seek answers to those questions. Immature and uninformed students of Christ can and do get many things wrong. Unfortunately, many people including the public and media (Christians and non), will take what they say as a true representation of Christianity, of what the Bible teaches, or of Christ himself. This can lead to a hasty generalization, as these immature Christians are unusual or atypical representations of a true Christian worldview. Instead, people should look for more mature students of Christ who know more (have more understanding, more learning, more tools, greater ability to articulate and explain). Later, I will provide a list of some of them.

(3) There are some churches that welcome doubters and seekers.

For example, Timothy Keller and Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City. Keller reflects on his journey:

“As a college student I attended a campus Christian fellowship that always, at every meeting, had a book table of literature for purchase. On the table there was a little booklet called Doubters Welcome. I remember my surprise at the title, because as a young believer I thought that Christians frowned on doubters and wanted them to just take that leap and have faith. But I came to realize that the Bible had a more balanced view. While we want doubts to give way to faith (John 20:28; James 1:6), we should be merciful and patient with those who are still in their doubt-troubled period (Jude 1:22). On that campus the Christian fellowship was very inviting to skeptics and doubters, and there were always a lot of them mixed in with the believers.

I always wanted to be part of a church that had that same spirit. When we began Redeemer Church in Manhattan in 1989, one of the first “core values” was that we wanted to be a place where those who were not believers (or who were not sure what they believed) would find their questions welcomed and addressed, their doubts and difficulties respected, and their struggles and concerns anticipated. We soon became aware of and glad for the presence of many, many doubters and spiritual inquirers in our midst. Over time, many of them discovered the Redeemer community to be an “incubator” where they were able to see the reasonable beauty of the Christian gospel and discover their own faith developing and growing.

However, the only way we were able to have a community filled with questioners was because believers at Redeemer were not afraid to identify themselves publicly as Christians to others that they worked with and lived near. When you do that, it is inevitable that you get some blank stares or pushback, or even some hostility. And yet you also will find expressions of interest. And that interest, cultivated through caring relationship and personal transparency, can lead to someone finding his or her way into a community where doubt is welcome….” (https://www.redeemer.com/skeptics_welcome/public_faith_skeptics_welcome)

(4) Reasons NOT to become a Christian.

I and many others try to encourage people to NOT become a Christian just because they were raised that way or because of culture or tradition or because of some subjective personal experience or because of feelings, but because they found that the Christian Worldview is evidentually true (because of the evidence supports it being the correct and true view of the world. Personal testimony does not really matter, because whether it is true or not is what matters, the evidence. Is it evidentially or factually true?

( https://coldcasechristianity.com/videos/why-i-rarely-share-my-personal-testimony-and-why-shouldnt-be-quick-to-share-yours-video )

Would you agree that one should not accept Christianity (or any other religion or worldview that has truth claims) as true for personal, subjective reasons alone but focus on the truth claims of the worldview? that we should have good reasons for thinking that Christianity is true before we dedicate ourselves completely to it? Did you know that many are Christians because there is no other logical option?

(5) Don't become a Christian unless it is true.

I am and continue to be a Christian and I accept its truth claims because of the evidential support; the strong evidence, logic, and reasoning supporting it and because when I had eliminated the impossible, whatever remained, however improbable, must be the truth by deductive reasoning and I have found that to be the Christian worldview...

Would you agree that we should make sure that we understand the right view; true or real representation, of a worldview, religion or philosophy before rejecting it? that we should not reject another person’s view if we have a limited understanding of it or if we have a weakened (straw man) representation of it?

Would you agree that our worldview must adequately answer questions of origin (where do we come from?), meaning (why are we here?), morality (what’s right and what’s wrong?) and destiny (where are we going?)? and therefore., drives how we think, act and feel, what we really believe? that our WV affects the way we look at everything: life, death, politics, parenting, education, etc.? and that since each WV holds to central beliefs that are opposed by the others, then logically only one worldview can be true; the others must be false?

Would you agree that each view or belief system is like a road that has obstacles that one has to address (objections) and points along the way that one must pass through, that cannot be avoided (logical conclusions)?

Would you agree that every worldview must adequately answer questions of origin, meaning, morality and destiny and must provide an explanation for the reality we experience including:

The beginning of the universe

The fine-tuning of the universe for the existence of life

The origin of life in the universe

The appearance of design in biological organisms

The existence of consciousness

Our experience of free agency

The existence of transcendent, objective moral truths

The persistent problem of evil

Did you know that Christians ultimately and fundamentally believe two things: (1) That God really exists, has a certain nature, and has a set of ideas about various things that He has disclosed to us. (2) That the things claimed in the first premise can be known to be true and need not be accepted by a blind, arbitrary act of privatized faith exercised?

Are you aware of the relationship between faith and reason in the Christian Worldview?

Did you know that the Christian reformers definition of faith included three elements?

* knowledge (Heb 11:6): requires content, information; awareness?

* assent (Heb 11:1; Isa 40-48; Ex 4:1-9): believing that info to be true; convinced from evidence, study; rational and intellectual (factual) belief?

* trust: faith in the above two; practical; relational. Requires an object; volitional (belief In the previous two elements); personal application, acting with trust (confidence, faith, belief) upon what you believe to be true; willful decision; active trust that results in change of mind and /lifestyle?

Would you agree that every Christian should know why they believe what they believe? And if true, then all three elements above are needed?

Would you agree that Christian faith should be grounded in reason? and that part of loving God with all of your mind is being able to defend your views about God?

Would you agree that many see Christian faith as believing in things that cannot be seen, believing in things that have no evidential basis, believing in something regardless of the evidence, believing in something when there is no evidence to support the belief ?

Would you agree then that there either is a God, or there is not? Jesus is that God, or He is not? Salvation comes through Christ alone (as Jesus Himself maintained), or it does not? And so, these are not a matter of opinion, personal preference or wishful thinking but objective truth?

Did you know that the Christian worldview is rational and reasonable, rooted and grounded in the evidence of the Resurrection and the truth of the Bible?

Would you agree that there are three common definitions of faith?

* Unreasonable Faith (Believing in something in spite of the evidence): when we refuse to accept or acknowledge evidence that clearly refutes what we think is true?

* Blind Faith (Believing in something without any evidence): when we accept a claim even though we are completely unaware of any evidence supporting the claim. This can result in believing something that is true or false, depending on the evidence?

* Forensic Faith (Believing in something because of the evidence): when we believe something because it is the most reasonable inference from evidence, even though we may still have some unanswered questions?

* Would you agree that the first two are subjective?

* Would you agree that objective claims can be examined, investigated and defended publicly?

* Did you know that Christianity makes objective claims about the existence of God, the history and person of Jesus of Nazareth, and the existence of transcendent, moral truths and obligations?

Did you know that Jesus... contrary to popular opinion, didn’t ask us to believe without evidence (or in spite of the evidence to the contrary). Instead, Jesus provided his followers with several lines of evidence and asked them to trust his claims because of this evidence?

Would you agree that if we want a life built on truth, then we want to be sure that our worldview consists of the highest percentage of true beliefs and the lowest percentage of false ones? that the only way available to us for making sure this is the case with our own belief system is through the careful use of our faculty of reason? that in the ordinary decisions of daily life, we try to base our beliefs and actions on the best relevant evidence we can obtain?

Would you respect someone who decided which house to buy with no regard to the evidence relevant? Would you agree that if someone used blind faith and bought the first house he or she saw with a For Sale sign in front of it, but made no effort to get information about the house and neighborhood, we would consider that person foolish?

Would you agree that when we use our reason and base decisions on the best assessment of the evidence we can make, we increase our chances that our decisions are based on true beliefs? that if this is the case for day-to-day issues, why should we suddenly abandon the importance of reason and evidence when it comes to religion? Would you agree that any religious belief should also be accepted because we take the belief to be true and do so by the best exercise of our mental faculties we can muster?

Would you agree that it’s not enough to turn to Christianity simply because it meets perceived needs? that one should turn to it only if it is true?

Would you agree (did you know) that Christianity is based on a historical event (1Cor 15:14) and on historical evidence that can be tested and found to be true or false? So, Christianity remains the one religious system (1) rooted in an historical event and (2) able to be verified by critical examination?

Did you know that Christianity is distinct in the nature of its claims and the value it places on reason, intelligence, and evidence?

Would you agree that most religious systems are based purely on the doctrinal, proverbial statements of their founders? Would you agree that the statements of these religious leaders exist independently of any event in history; that these systems rise or fall on the basis of ideas and concepts and not on claims about a particular historical event?

Would you agree that personal visions and pietistic wisdom statements (claims about ideas and concepts) are difficult to validate evidentially? That you have to either accept the story or reject it, but in either case, without the ability to investigate my claims evidentially? That private claims really cannot be examined for evidence and verified?

Would you agree that historical claims are different, can be investigated forensically and historically and verified to be true or false? that public claims are categorically different from private claims? that public claims are about historical events that occurred (or didn’t occur) and be investigated forensically and historically?

Would you agree that the authority of Jesus is grounded in more than the strength of an idea; it’s established by the verifiability of an event--the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, an important Christian distinctive? And like other historical events, the Resurrection can be examined for its reliability, and the verifiability of Christianity separates it from every other religious system?

Would you agree that the Christian’s claims are public claims and so Christianity is established on the basis of an event in history?

Would you agree that “The facts backing the Christian claim are not a special kind of religious fact. They are the cognitive, informational facts upon which all historical, legal and ordinary decisions are based” ?

Did you know that Jesus even claimed to be the source and definition of the truth about reality: Metaphysics (why there is something rather than nothing), Theology (God), Epistemology (knowledge), Ethics (morality), and Anthropology (nature of man). (John 18:37; 14:6; 8:31-32)?

Did you know that the Bible describes the existence of objective Biblical truth and prescribes the teaching and defense of this truth?

If you are going to call into question all of Christianity and leave it, then you need to ask and adequately answer the above questions.

AND

Would you agree that the claims of Christianity (or any other worldview) are either true or false? And they are true or false independent of how Christians behave? Do you agree that Christianity makes claims about reality? Do you agree or did you know that many people (including Christians) don’t think it really matters if the claims of Christianity are true or false? Do you agree that today, many don’t care if it or any other religion is true? Many just want to know if will work for them, if it does what they want, if it makes them feel good/happy? But what is the best way to address claims about ultimate reality?

1. Since the Christian Worldview stands or falls on one single event in history--resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor 15:12-20; Luke 1:4; evidence given to support this: John 20:30-31; Act 5:12-16; 2Cor 12:12; Heb 2:1-4; Luke 1:4)1-- then can you provide good arguments and evidence that: there is NO absolute and objective truth; truth about reality is NOT knowable; the opposite of true is NOT false; Jesus did not really live in history; New Testament is NOT historically reliable; NT does NOT record that Jesus claimed to be God? If you can, then would you agree that I should not be a Christian?

2. However, would you agree that “so long as the New Testament documents are sufficiently reliable to establish the historicity of Jesus’ radical personal claims and the historicity of his crucifixion, burial, empty tomb, post-mortem appearances, and the origin of the disciples’ belief in his resurrection, then [Christians] are warranted by the evidence in believing that Jesus rose from the dead and so was who he claimed to be”?

3. Therefore, the only logical reasons to “leave” Christianity would be because there is NO absolute and objective truth AND there is evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus either did not exist in history or He did not actually die and resurrect back to life.

4. Also, we must distinguish between (1) what one must believe/trust in order to be saved--the Gospel: God (that He exists and is one), Christ (that He exists, The God-man, His death and resurrection), Nature of Man (relationally separated from God; born sinners, condemned to hell; unable to save self) [Rom 10:9; 1Cor 15:1-6; Acts 16:31; Acts 2:21, 36; 3:14-16; 5:30-35; 10:39; 1Cor 12:3] and (2) what must be true to make salvation possible (truth of salvation essentials, e.g., justification, sanctification and glorification) and (3) source of knowing about the salvation essentials (e.g., inspiration and inerrancy of scripture), which are not necessary to believe to be saved. (For more on this see Conviction without Compromise by Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes; Essential Christian Doctrines. http://www.str.org/articles/essential-christian-doctrines; Essential Doctrine Made Easy. Rose Publishing by Geisler.)