Yahshua's Glory Before the Foundation of the World

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Did Yahshua Create?

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The Preexistence of Christ Literal or Figurative? Literal and Notional Preexistence: Crossroads for the Incarnation Debate

The Glory I Had Before the World Was

Jesus the Messiah: Incarnated or Created?

Yahshua's Glory Before the Foundation of the World Does This Mean He Pre-existed? By Voy Wilks 2/4/89

"And now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made" (Jn. 17:5 RSV).

"Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the the foundation of the world" (Jn. 17:24).

It is clear that Yahweh the Supreme Being planned to send a Savior, so in this sense Yahshua pre-existed before the world was made - in Yahweh's plan. Did Yahshua pre-exist bodily, as a Deity, before the world was made?

First we must never forget that Yahweh was alone in creating the earth - the universe. No other Mighty One, no other Deity, was with him. He alone created everything. This was still true in the days of Isaiah the Prophet. Yahweh alone (the Supreme Being) was the only El, the only Eloah, the only true Elohim and the only Yahweh who existed at that time (Isa. 37:16; 40:12-31; 42:5-8; 43:1-15; 44:6; 44:24; 45:5-18; 46:5-9; 48:9-13; 51:12-16). There was no others (Mk. 12:29-33). All through the O.T. this is the song of the prophets and the saints. The N.T. message must agree with this, for the N.T. relies on the O.T. for its life, its very being. In view of this, and the Scripture references by Isaiah the Prophet (noted above), let us examine other N.T. Scriptures which are very similar to Jn. 17:5,24.

"He [the Messiah] was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of times for your sake" (1 Peter. 1:20 RSV).

The KJV states this more impressively, if possible, than does the RSV. The message is, before the foundation of the world, Yahweh destined (planned) that a Savior would come, but it was only in Peter's day that he was made manifest to men. In what way was he manifested? In flesh and blood (verse 19). The fact that he "was made manifest" only in Peter's day is an indication that he did not exist (except in plan) before the earth was made, and certainly not as Deity; not the El or the Yahweh who spoke to the Prophets of old (Heb. 1:1). Notice another Scripture, please.

"... and they that dwell on earth shall wonder, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, ..." (Rev. 17:8).

"... and all who dwell on earth shall worship [the beast], every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain" (Rev. 13:8 RSV).

Here we see that the saints were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Does this mean the saints had a pre-existence? Did the saints live as deity before the earth was made? No. What happened is, before the earth was made, Yahweh created the book of life and planned that some would (eventually) be recorded there, by individual names. In the same way, he planned for a Savior, even before the world was made. But the KJV reads a little differently in Rev. 13:8.

"And all who dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8 KJV).

This indicates Yahshua the Lamb was "slain before" the earth was made. Did this happen? No, but it was in Yahweh's plan before the world was made to send a Redeemer who would be slain for the sins of men, as Scripture reveals:

"But when the fullness of time was come, Yahweh sent forth his Son, MADE of a woman made under the law, to redeem them that are under the law, ..." (Gal. 4:4,5).

"The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Soon after creation, Adam and Eve transgressed, so Yahweh slew an animal and made clothing for them. From what? Probably a lamb, a sheep. Allegorically then, Yahshua (the Lamb) was slain from the foundation of the world, a sacrifice; "... without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (Heb. 9:22). Let us compare other (and similar) Scriptures.

"Then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mt. 25:34).

"That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation" (Lk. 11:50). Abel must have been the first.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Yahshua Messiah unto good works, which Yahweh hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10).

"For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although his works were finished from the foundation of the world" (Heb. 4:3).

"Blessed be the Elohim and Father of our Savior Yahshua Messiah, who has blessed us in heavenly places, even as he CHOSE US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. He destined US in love to be his sons through Yahshua Messiah, according the the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according the the riches of his grace which is lavished upon us. For he was made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in the Messiah as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him according to his purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the council of his will, we who first hoped in Messiah have been DESTINED and appointed to live for the praise of his glory" (Eph. 1:3-12 RSV).

Obviously, you and I did not have a pre-existence before the world was made except in Yahweh's plan. This was true also of Yahshua Messiah. Just as Yahweh planned (destined) some (us, you and I) to eventually become sons, even before the world was made, so he planned for a Savior (a Redeemer) to appear "in the fullness of time," to save those who "live for the praise of his glory."

Note: This is not to say we do not have a choice. Certainly we do have a choice, just as Israel had a choice. "... I set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, loving Yahweh your Elohim, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him, for that means life to you ..." (Deut. 30:19,20).

Conclusion

The Apostle Paul wrote that Yahweh "... calleth those witch thing be not as though they were" (Rom. 4:17B). He uses Abraham as an example: "I have made thee a father of many nations" This was even before Abraham (Rom. 4:17A from Gen. 17:5). This was even before Abraham fathered his son Isaac. Once Yahweh plans something, it is certain to happen, so he sometimes speaks of it as if it has already come to pass. This is true of the glory which Yahweh planned of his Son Yahshua, andfor you and me, if we choose life. He chose us before the foundation of the world. This being true, Jn. 17:5, 24 does not promote the pre-existence.The Redeemer received Yahweh's glory by being in his glorious plan to be accomplished in future centuries. Therefore, Yahshua as Redeemer looked forward to enjoying this glorious face to face with the Father ("in thy own presence" Jn. 17:5) which he had in Yahweh's plans before the world existed. We too, were chosen and destined "before the foundation of the world."

Does Hebrews 1:1-2; Colossians 1:16-17 & John 1:10 Say That Yahshua Was Involved in the Creation of the World?

Please note how these passages are translated in the Emphatic Diaglott Greek Interlinear.

Diaglott, Hebrews 1:1-2

Hebrews 1:1 In many parts and in many ways long ago the God having spoken to the fathers by the prophets, in last of the days of these spoke to us by a son,

Hebrews 1:2 whom he appointed an heir of all things, (on account of whom also the ages he made,)

Diaglott, Colossians 1:16-17

Colossians 1:16 because in him were created the things all, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, the things seen and the things unseen, whether thrones, or lordships, or governments, or authorities; the things all on account of him and for him have been created;

Colossians 1:17 and he is in advance of all, and the things all in him has been placed together;

Diaglott, John 1:10

John 1:10 In the world he was, and the world through him was, and the world him not knew.

The Greek word di' or dia which is translated 'by' in the A.K.J.V. and 'through' in the R.S.V. in Hebrews 1:2 is translated 'on account of' in the Emphatic Diaglott.

This changes the meaning of this passage of Hebrews 1:1-2 considerably from how the K.J.V. and the A.S.V. translates. It does not say that Yahshua was involved in the creation of the world, but that the world was created "on account of" of him. This translation brings Hebrews 1:2 in harmony with the entire context of Scripture, in that it was Father Yahweh Who created the heavens and the earth ALONE (cf. Psalm 121:1, 33:6-9; Isayah 44:24) . Following is how the K.J.V. and the R.S.V. translates Hebrews 1:2.

K.J.V., Hebrews 1:2

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

R.S.V., Hebrews 1:2

but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Now, I ask you, are you going to ignore the entire context of Scripture where it is said that Father Yahweh ALONE created the heavens and the earth for how a translator may have translated a word in a few passages?

Even Yahshua himself credited Father Yahweh for the creation of Adam and Eve, not even so much as mentioning that he had any hand in creating them.

Have you not read, that He Who made [them] at the beginning made them male and female, (Matthew 19:4; Genesis 1:27).

Yahshua surely had an involvement in the creation of the heavens and the earth in that Father Yahweh had him in mind, but he had no hand in the actual creation in the beginning. He was not a "co-creator" with Father Yahweh in the beginning as many deceptively teach. He did not even "pre-exist" with Father Yahweh, nor was he Father Yahweh. Yahshua was Father Yahweh's son as Scripture teaches.

RELATED ARTICLES

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

Yahchanan [John] 17:5

By Voy Wilks

The following is an excerpt from Did Our Savior Pre-exist? By John Cordaro and was revised as of 1/16/06.

OLD GLORY

Following on the heels of the above, John 17:5 states, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." Was this glory as the second person of the "Trinity" or is there something here that many people miss?

Yahshua is said to be the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet we have the Bible also saying, "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:25-26) Clearly, the Hebrews passage states that Yahshua was not literally slain from the foundation of the world, but rather was slain in the mind or plan of Almighty Yahweh. This is akin to John 1:1 which speaks of the very word of Elohim being with Elohim in the beginning. This spoken word or plan of Yahweh existed throughout the ions of time. From the beginning of time, Yahweh had Yahshua's sacrifice in His plan for all humankind. For it was through Yahshua that we would receive our justification (Romans 4:25). 1 Peter 1:18-20 continues to explain this by saying:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."

Notice the use of the word foreordained. Yahshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was made manifest or revealed in these last times. He did not exist as a person or being in former times, but in these last times Yahweh allowed him to be born of a woman (Galatians 4:4) and speaks through him (Hebrews 1:1-2).

It is especially intriguing to find Yahshua praying to the Father, that He would let the disciples share in this glory (John 17:24) and then he in turn mentions the foundation of the world. The disciples would indeed share in the glory of the crucifixion by having their sins washed away, but they definitely did not share Yahshua's glory by themselves being involved in a trinitarian being.

The glory that Yahshua had was as the slain lamb of Yahweh, in the mind of Yahweh, and Yahshua was praying for that glory to be brought about literally, so as to give unto all those who would accept, eternal life. This is why Yahshua began in John 17:1-2 by saying, "These words spake Yahshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.' " Yahshua wanted to bring about the fruition of eternal life by Yahweh glorifying him as the ultimate sacrifice, and Yahshua in turn glorifying the Father.

GLORY

No fewer than 25 Hebrew words are rendered by doxa in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Of these 25 words, 7 are more common, the most important being kabad. This Greek word doxa of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, and the doxa of the New Testament, are usually rendered “glory” in the English versions, a translation of the Latin gloria. If we first look at the Hebrew Old Testament, we find that kabad has usually been rendered “honour” when applied to man, but rendered “glory” when applied to our Heavenly Father. Why were they so keen to apply the word “glory” to our Mighty One? What is the meaning of the word “glory”? Funk & Wagnalls, New Standard Dictionary of the English Language, under “glory”, gives the religious symbolic meaning, “In religious symbolism, the complete representation of an emanation of light from the person of a sanctified being consisting of the aureole and the nimbus;” and further on, “The quality of being radiant or shining; brilliancy brightness; luster; as the glory of the sun;” and further on, “A sunburst; any ring of light; a halo.” John Ogilvie The Comprehensive English Dictionary, under “glory”, explains it as, “splendour, as of the sun.” Similar statements are made by The Oxford English Dictionary and Webster's New International Dictionary. The latter states, “glory is the general term for the aureola and the nimbus”—aureola being the halo or ring round the sun, and nimbus being the sun-disc.

This meaning, as well as the word itself, would be acceptable if the commonly used Hebrew words of the Old Testament, and the Greek word doxa, have had the same meaning of sun-radiance or circles of light. However, we do not find any trace of sun-radiance or emanation of light in any of these Hebrew words, nor in the Greek doxa. Once more we are rudely awakened to the fact of the adoption of Sun-worship into the Church, the fusion of Sun-worship and the Messianic Faith. In the dictionaries, encyclopaedias and ecclesiastical books, we find many illustrations of our Saviour, the Virgin, and the saints, encircled with radiant circles or emanations of light around them.

What are the meanings then of the Scriptural Hebrew words? Kabad means honour, dignity or esteem in its figurative sense, as well as weight, in its literal sense. Pa'ar means repute. Halal means praiseworthiness or praise. Adar and hadar means to make great. Tipharah means repute. Shavak means to esteem. The Greek word doxa simply means opinion, estimation, esteem, repute or dignity, coming from the verb dokeo, which means “to seem.”

   Thus, the ecclesiastical symbolic meaning of the word “glory”, being that of radiance or emanation of light as from the sun, is totally un-Scriptural. It is strong evidence of the Church's solarisation of our Messiah and of His Father. The Church identified Elohim with the Sun deity, which was the prevailing deity of the Roman emperors, the Roman capital and its empire. However, not only does the concept of “glory” stem from Sun-worship, but we also find proof of “glory” (gloria) as having been a Roman goddess, discovered in the form of an icon personified by a woman, the upper part of her body almost naked, holding a circle on which are the zodiac signs. Pauly-Wissowa also defines Gloria as a personification of fame, the word being found very frequently on the coins of Constantine and his successors. Besides the frequent occurrence of the word Gloria on the coins, the image of this goddess is found on two coins, one of Constantius II and one of Constantine II.

We should therefore eliminate the word “glory” from our religious vocabulary for three reasons:

1) We have been commanded in Exod. 23:13 to “make no mention of the names of other mighty ones, nor let it be heard from your mouth”—especially in our worship, applying these names to the One we love, and His Son.

2) The concept of the word “glory” in religious symbolism, as we read in Funk & Wagnall's Dictionary, is that of the emanation or radiance of light, as of the sun. This is proof of the solarisation of our beloved Saviour, identifying Him, as well as His Father, with the Sun-deity.

3) The Hebrew words, as well as Greek word doxa, do not carry the meaning of sun-radiance or sunlight at all. Therefore the word “glory” is an incorrect rendering of those words.

What then should we use instead of the word “glory”? Simply what the Hebrew words and the Greek word mean: “esteem”, or “high esteem” or “repute”. These words carry the meaning of the Scriptural words and do not stem from the names of deities as far as we know, and should be used wherever our versions have “glory”.

Who Is Wisdom in Proverbs 8?

DI504

Leland Ryken

This article first appeared in the Practical Hermeneutics column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 27, number 2 (2004). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

I’m an enthusiast for “the Bible as literature.” There are, of course, liabilities to this popularized label since in some circles it runs the risk of implying that the Bible is only literature and therefore devoid of the special authority that Christians ascribe to it as a religious book.

No less a literary giant than C. S. Lewis expressed that same reservation when he accused those who read the Bible “as literature” of reading the Bible “without attending to the main thing it is about.”1 Two sentences later, however, Lewis asserted unequivocally, “There is a saner sense in which the Bible, since it is after all literature, cannot properly be read except as literature; and the different parts of it as the different sorts of literature they are.”

What Lewis meant is that the Bible is composed of different kinds (genres) of literature — narrative, poetry, prophecy, epistle (authoritative teaching in the form of a letter), and so on — and each part of the Bible must be read according to the kind of literature it is. It is this principle I propose to explain: literary genre should influence our interpretations, and an awareness of literary genre can spare us from misreadings of the Bible (though that is not its only usefulness).

How to Misread Proverbs 8. One biblical text that illustrates this principle is a famous poem that praises wisdom (Prov. 8:22–31). Here are the first five verses of the poem:

The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.

Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

When there were no depths I was brought forth,

when there were no springs abounding with water.

Before the mountains had been shaped,

before the hills, I was brought forth,

before he had made the earth with its fields,

or the first of the dust of the world. (esv)

Who is speaking here? The lead-in to the speech answers the question: “Does not wisdom call?” (v. 1); and in verse 12, we read, “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence.” The repeated first-person references (my lips, my mouth, etc.), therefore, are to wisdom.

With this context as your guide, you would probably not find the passage difficult, but what would you say if someone rattled off proof texts to support the belief that the speaker of the poem is really Christ and that the passage, moreover, shows that Jesus is a created being? This is exactly what Jehovah’s Witnesses claim regarding the passage.

In a Watch Tower tract entitled Should You Believe in the Trinity?2 the following verses from the Bible are strung together:

• Colossians 1:15, which calls Christ “the first-born of all creation.”

• Revelation 3:14, which speaks of Christ as “the beginning of God’s creation.”

• Several verses from Proverbs 8, one of which speaks of how “Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works” (njb).

• 1 Corinthians 8:6, where the italicizing in the tract shows the Jehovah’s Witnesses interpreta-tion that God the Father created Christ, who then created the world: “There is one God, the Father, from whom are all things,…and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things.”

They argue that because the speaker in Proverbs 8 is described in the same terms as are used for Christ elsewhere, that speaker, therefore, must be Christ. Since the speaker in the Proverbs 8 passage speaks of being “brought forth” (vv. 24–25 esv), moreover, this same Christ must be a created being and not an eternal member of the Trinity. Lest we think that the Jehovah’s Witnesses thought this up on their own, they correctly adduce “Christian writers of the early centuries of the Common Era” as having also believed that the speaker in Proverbs 8 is really Christ.3 Indeed, the view that the speaker of Proverbs 8 is Christ continues to make the rounds in some evangelical circles.

How to Recognize Personification. As I said earlier, I will make the case for literary genre as an effective way to spare us from misreading the Bible. We noted that wisdom is the speaker in Proverbs 8. Wisdom, someone might protest, cannot speak. Well, yes she can if she is a personification of an abstract concept.

Poets have always used personification, and biblical writers did as well. Just recall some famous examples: “Sin is crouching at the door” (Gen. 4:7 esv). “Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other” (Ps. 85:10 kjv). “Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death” (James 1:15 esv). My personal favorite is Zechariah’s vision of a woman named Wickedness sitting inside a cereal container (Zech. 5:6–8).

How can you know when a poet has used personification? It is not complicated: whenever a poet attributes human qualities to some- thing inanimate, often an abstraction, he or she has used personification.

This takes us back to Proverbs 8. The main subject of Proverbs chapters 1–9 is wisdom, which is an abstract quality or character trait rather than a person, but wisdom is treated as a woman from the first chapter right through chapter 9. Wisdom is portrayed as a woman of dazzling attractiveness and virtue, who teaches in the marketplace of the town (1:20), who is romantically embraced (4:8–9), who can be addressed as “my sister” (7:4), who utters a long speech commending herself to the public (chap. 8), and who builds a house and invites people to an alluring banquet (9:1–6).

Is Proverbs 8 Literal Fact or Literary Fiction? We would make so much more sense of biblical poetry if we would simply acknowledge that poetry is a form of fiction and quite often of fantasy. In its usual pose, it asserts something that we know to be literally untrue and often openly fantastic. Surely personification illustrates this in its pure form. We all know that blood does not literally cry from the ground (Gen. 4:10) and that light and truth are not literally travel guides to Jerusalem (Ps. 43:3).

Similarly, in Proverbs 1–9, wisdom is not literally a woman who speaks eloquently about herself and prepares a banquet. Wisdom is a quality of the soul. The purpose of the entire eighth chapter is to praise and exalt wisdom. In conducting this praise, the writer invents a fictional creation story in which wisdom, as an attribute of God, was actually present at creation. Proverbs 3:19 tells us propositionally that “the Lord by wisdom founded the earth.” Proverbs 8 turns that statement into a fictional narrative in which a personified wisdom was present at the creation of the world. It is as simple as that.

Proverbs 8 as an Encomium. A proper understanding of Proverbs 8 does not absolutely depend on viewing the poem as an encomium, but the dynamics of the passage will fall even more into place

if we do so. The encomium, one of the most beautiful and exalted types of literature used in the Bible, is a composition in praise of either an abstract quality or a general character type. First Corinthians 13 is an encomium in praise of love, Hebrews 11 in praise of faith, and Proverbs 31:10–31 in praise of the virtuous wife.

The writer of an encomium conducts the praise by using a standard set of literary motifs (elements): (1) introduction to the subject, (2) the distinguished and ancient ancestry of the subject, (3) a list of the praiseworthy acts and qualities of the subject, (4) the indispensable and/or superior nature of the subject, and (5) a conclusion urging the reader to emulate the subject.

Proverbs 8 has all of these familiar motifs. In verses 22–31, we find the motif of the ancient and distinguished ancestry of wisdom, which was present from the beginning and even participated in the creation of the world.

Is Christ the First Created Being? The specific hermeneutical principle that I have applied in this article is the need to read figurative speech in a nonliteral sense. This is part of a broader principle of interpreting a text in keeping with what we know about its genre (what type of literature it is). Interpreters have done a lot of mischief by taking figurative language literally. If an interpreter begins with the premise that Proverbs 8 is talking about Christ, then certain references can be (incorrectly) interpreted as implying that Christ is a created being. The fallacy is in thinking that the speaker in Proverbs 8 is Christ in the first place. The speaker is wisdom personified. Those who press for a literal interpretation of Proverbs 8 face the daunting task of explaining why the pronoun and language used for wisdom are feminine — is Christ feminine in His true essence or does He have a female counterpart in heaven to whom this passage refers?

We also need to apply this principle when we come to passages that speak of Christ as the “firstborn” or “beginning” of God’s creation. These titles do not refer literally to generation but figuratively to exaltation — not to a literal origin but to an exalted position.

All Literature Requires Interpretation. I can imagine some readers questioning whether what I have said in this article introduces an element of subjectivity into the interpretation of the Bible. After all, whether the speaker in Proverbs 8 is a personified wisdom and whether the passage is an encomium are decisions that the interpreter makes. Yes, they are, but two things need to be asserted in regard to this. First, all texts require interpretive decisions, and the more literary and more ancient the text, the more interpretive decisions are potentially required. Second, all interpretive decisions involve an element of subjectivity. To decide that a statement in the Bible is figurative is no more subjective than to decide that it is literal. This element of subjectivity, moreover, does not mean that all interpretive decisions are entirely subjective. With practice we can learn to recognize what kind of literature we are reading and let that influence our interpretation.

— Leland Ryken

NOTES

1. C. S. Lewis, Reflections on the Psalms (New York: Harcourt, Brace and World, 1958), 3.

2. Should You Believe in the Trinity? (Brooklyn: Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, 1989), 14.

3. Aid to Bible Understanding (Brooklyn: Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, 1989), 918.

SOURCE