On this page you can read some interesting quotes from sexabuseyidl forum ,
from beyondorange forum, and other cult and abuse related quotes from other sources.
Click the title (link) to read the full quote if quote is partial ( has ... at the begining or anywhere in the text )
BEYOND ORANGE
The OM ashram blog is offering a special treat, a lecture on Sraddha from April.
Towards the bottom of the transcript, swAmi once again delivers what I consider one of the sickest, most revolting stories of his entire repertoire: Upmanyu.
I am sure you have heard it many times, if not, by all means do read it. It must be read.
The concept of the story is beyond disgusting. Any normal person from any civilized country watching this "Master" would either immediately call the police or at least child social services. The sole purpose of this sick obscenity is justification of child abuse, of slavery, of abject sadism.
It closes with this invocation :
"May every disciple be like him. And every Master is searching for such a disciple. The Master takes care of every disciple each moment and, at the same time, He is searching his border of unbearable pain."
...One question was who is "Roman's army". First I wasn't sure what she meant but then I got an idea. This whole "anti-swAmi effort" must be based on some calculated strategy how to destroy the guru and his organization. Many people in the organization are nice, good, hard working selfless individuals who are doing everything possible to live positive and spiritual lives. So here was an idea: "Roman's army", the joke of naming those who are trying to expose swAmi's misbehavior by the same people has turned in the organization members minds into validation of the need for the villain. SwAmi's sex, money and hitting escapades have been acknowledged by staying members and are not enough to convince them that there is something wrong with their master. The only thing which can be wrong are "the others", especially people like me, the leader of the swAmi hating army. I tried to explain that there is no calculated effort or some kind of guided organization. The army of misfits (like jokingly Tony once called it - now I am interested what this joke will create in devoted minds ) is comprised of people who care for those who had been hurt. I don't know if she accepted my answer. At least she listened to it.
Another issue was that we are causing hardship in devotees' lives by describing the organization as a cult (especially in newspapers and magazines). What if somebody is looking for a job and the potential employer googles YIDL? Being part of the cult can make them unqualified for the job. My response was that how about the other people who left and are trying to put their lives together and have hard time explaining big gaps in their resume because they were doing lots of selfless low paid or not paid at all work for some cult. So should everybody just shut up and pretend that nothing happened? According to my opinion, those who are independent, strong and well qualified would eventually disperse any generalizing misconceptions about them. Of course, if somebody is looking for a job in women's shelter or as income tax enforcer and is associated with a group whose leader conducts himself like our swAmi, it may be a problem. Justifiably so. Again, I don't know what she made out of my answer to her, I would love her to join this forum and give us her perspective.
And one more issue. Why are the descriptions of the incidents written so "pornographically"? This is the common perception of the other side that the testimonies are not "nice, positive, spiritual, full of light", that they are written in "ugly, porno-like, rude and non-spiritual" way. It just amazes me how far are YIDL people from "normal" world reality. Things which were done were "ugly, porno-like, rude and non-spiritual" and each of the affected women described them in a way they felt it was appropriate. Beside that, some people should probably watch or read "real porno" to see what that means. According my opinion the testimonies were written appropriately to underline the seriousness of the situations without becoming XXX industry material.
There is a huge divide in minds of in and out people. When I answered someone's else question if I still practice yoga with "No", I had received a condemning and worrying look. I got over it with a joke, but it really pissed me off. That was the same person who's opinion about all this was that "it takes two to a tango" and that basically all the affected women had a choice and if things happened, it was their fault too (i.e. mainly their fault and I am still with the guru somehow). Again pattern of trying to justify misbehaving of a god-like guru in non god-like situations. The fact that many of the women were groomed into these situations, manipulated or cheated into them doesn't matter. It take two to a tango.
All this convinces me even more that YIDL is a cult because smart, intelligent, good and nice people will do everything it takes to justify actions which they deplore deeply in their heart. By now everybody had a chance to take some stand in this situation. My attitude towards it is to view it as a learning opportunity for myself. How about for others? I am old enough to give everybody freedom of making up their minds. I do just my little part to be able to live with myself and give others the same chance.
SEXABUSEYIDL
SELECTED QUOTES FROM THE http://www.sexabuseyidl.net/
Roman:
Millennium World Peace Summit #3
...The whole peace conference started for us in the American ashram almost a year before the actual event. SwAmi wrote us that he was going to be at this summit and that we should contact the main organizer, some guy with name of an ant sweeper and inform him about all great peaceful and religious deeds of our master and all his titles of course, include my business card, he mentioned. So we did. SwAmi’s main concern was that he wanted to be one of the speakers, the main guys, it would be just great for his all over the world promotion. Imagine those pictures – him and Ted Turner (the guy bankrolling this whole thing before he got almost bankrupt), Kofi Annan and all the other very important people. This was the time when he hadn’t had any UN presence yet and he wanted it really badly. He also wanted to get the best accommodations which were granted to those special guests. You know his thing about hotels, complete madness. Then we had waited and waited. No answer. SwAmi was bombing us with need for updates. “Find him, call him, tell him that S…ji needs to make arrangements in his schedule because he is very busy man, etc. I’ve already had a feeling that maybe Mr. Antsweeper doesn’t give a hoop about our swAmi, but who am I. I ain’t got no freaking sidhis to know things before they happen, he does. I am just a slave always ready to serve. We wrote another letter which was not screwed up by his input as the first one was. The lady who helped me with it did really terrific job. Very professional, not full of I AM THE MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE stuff and we were ready to send it. Before it came out, I still had to get it approved by my master. I emailed it to him, and he called me back. “No, this is not the right way to do it. You don’t know anything about how the real important business is done, boy. I will tell you exactly what you should write…” And another bombastic megalomaniacal announcement was born. We gave up and sent his version to the organizer. Guess what! No answer again. This time I wasn’t surprise. I wouldn’t answer to such a letter either. And again bugging from swAmi: “Have you heard anything yet?” No gurudev. “So why don’t you call him? You Americans cannot do anything right. Austrian post office delivers letters right on time. That’s unbelievable!” Yes, gurudev. (Yes, you are unbelievable.)
So I called the Antsweeper’s office. Some woman picked up and said that he was busy… I called again. Many and many times. Eventually he got on the phone and told me very strictly: “Yes, I got all your letters and no, he won’t be among special guests. He is welcome to come as others, procedure is explained on the invitation for non-special guests.” Of course, there was a hefty registration fee attached to it and of course, swAmi wanted to stay in Waldorf Astoria hotel, where part of the conference was taking place. That ain’t cheap either. I was getting shivers. I called my master and told him what I was told. I don’t exactly remember what he said but it was something like: “You are impossible, cannot arrange a simple thing for S…ji. Forget it, we will do it from here. I will call him.” Certainly, master. (Phew, at least break for a moment).
Obviously it didn’t work because we eventually got a directive:
Send the registration for non-special guests, pay all the fees needed and reserve a suite in Waldorf Astoria hotel, quite, nice view, not too far from … Well that drill I knew already from A to Z.
So we emptied our coffers, broke every piggy bank in reach and were waiting for gurudev to come to America to save the world peace. I was going nuts. I felt completely like a piece of s…t. Not just symbolically. I felt dirty, stupid, coward-like and my life made no sense to me at all. Every morning I was waking up convincing myself: “Ok, go and pretend being a loving swami who takes care of his flock.” Shining smile on the face and dry cry inside.
When we got to New York and settled in a hotel, of course exchanging rooms few times, nothing new. “I told you exactly what I wanted, why do I have to always arrange everything myself.” Because you know the best, gurudev. (Stupid, Roman, you are f…ing stupid!)
In the auditorium hall at the UN he tried to sneak into forbidden rows. Just told me: “Let's sit here.” But S…ji, these are the rows for special guests. “Well, I am special. You didn’t know that? I am your master. Hahaha!” HiHiHiHeHeHeHoHoHo from the slave group. (I can’t believe I am voluntarily part of this. What is this? I need to wake up. Not just from here. I need to wake up from my whole life!)
Well trained ushers gave us warning few times and eventually kicked us out of the forbidden zone. Very politely but with full determination that even our master didn’t argue at that time.
I have mentioned before that the conference was organized by Ted Turned. The conference happened before Time Warner was purchased by AOL and things went down the hill for Ted for a while. The only speaker I liked at that conference was him. Of course, typical American success guy but also very funny and smart. He wasn’t religious at all, he said, but he decided to put together this conference because it seamed that throughout the history, the religious leaders were more involve in wars than in peace. (I am just paraphrasing what he said, I don’t remember the exact words). Among other things he mentioned who once he had discussion with priest about heaven. The priest was telling him that he should become more religious etc otherwise he will end up in hell, not in heaven. And who gets into heaven? Ted Turner asked the priest. Well those, who live pious lives, don’t sin, are always nice and pray all the time and all that. Ted’s answer to the priest was: “Well father, if it is this way, heaven’s gotta be really lonely and boring place and I don’t wanna go there. I like company and fun.” I guess that shut the priest up.
Towards the end of the conference there was a reception sponsored by Ted Turner in the UN building and swAmi so wanted to go there. But of course, it was just for invited guests and he wasn’t among them. He was like a little kid trying to sneak into a porn movie theater. “Let’s go now upstairs…” But S…ji that goes to the reception. Those two big guys there are checking the invitation. “It’s OK, just you two follow me,” and he was going with as much stature and look of somebody really important as possible up the stairs. He sort of got pass the first security guard but the second stopped us. “Invitation, of course, Rameshwaranand, give it to the gentleman here.” I didn’t know what to do so I gave the gentleman the Chinese menu business card. He looked at it and wasn’t satisfied. SwAmi tried the stunt like he going up there while me going for misplaced invitation. The UN security guards know their stuff though and we all three orange people were going down the stairs rejoining with our slave group. Nice try.
This unending effort how to get acquainted with the important people was not just some play. It was a pathological pattern.
Of course, eventually at the hotel we ran into Mr. Antsweeper. He was surrounded by a hoard of Indian swamis who were not among the special guest group and wanted his attention. Our swAmi joined them. Antsweeper was entering elevator and swAmi was pushing into his hand his business card. Antsweeper eventually took it but simply dissed him with his look. Elevator door closed and if there were any ants in that hallway, they suffered terrible death by stampede by second class swamis.
Well, I can take remembering of all this just in little pieces even today. It still makes my stomach crawl.
I’ll try to remember more next time...
Roman April 2011 Permalink
Posts: 347
It was during 1998 Kumbha Mela in Haridwar which was also first Kumbha Mela visited by YIDL disciples from all around the world. swAmi needed to be more recognized in India. They did not give much damn about some Mahaprabhuji from Rajasthan and stories like that. They have plenty of those there. I have no idea how, but somehow he found Mahanirwani Akhara and decided to join them. I am sure he wanted to show that if he is part of leadership of this ancient organization it will give him validity in India. These are my conclusions and can be counterattacked be swAmi and others that it was not like that, I don’t really care. That is not important. What I witnessed with my own eyes is. My lawyer advised me rather not to use names at this point just in case all these things end up somewhere in court. Then I will go full force. I’ve mentioned before, that Govinda (everybody knows he was the treasury man in the Ashram) was there. The others present on swAmi’s side were three non-Indian swamis including me, a man of Indian origin who lives abroad and another ashram member. I do not recall how many people were there from akhara side but the room wasn’t too big. Definitely three or more. The reason we were there was that the akhara did not want swAmi as mahamandaleshwar. He did not have much history with them and he is not of Brahmin cast. We swamis there, as I understand now, were there to show them that swAmi has many disciples all over the world (America, Europe and Australia) and he will be helpful for them. I do not speak Hindi but we got translations and explanations during and after the event from those present who speak Hindi. The Indian man, whom I knew very well was the one who was negotiating the bribe (“dakshina” they will say) and convincing them to accept swAmi as mahamandaleshwar. Then the treasurer handed over a big bag of money, they counted it without any shame and that was it. Afterwards they invited us to eat with them great Indian food. Somebody may say: “It’s a culture, that’s how things are done there.” I’ve heard swAmi saying it lot of times. I am just asking you: “How many titles does he have now?” Even when I was still there, his business card was in a form of a booklet. Ridiculous. Buying the titles and having others paying for it? Lots of people lost all their savings to bearded and/or bold men with crooked legs from culture they idolize but really don’t understand.
Another interesting thing I’ve found out in course of last few weeks. When Jasraj was to become mahamandaleshwar, all Australian ashrams were ordered to give money for the bribe/dakshina. I’ve always liked Jasraj (it was many years ago) but this is just pitiful. I do understand that it was swAmiwaranada’s idea and he has no shame. Just another Australian mate’s gone. Well…
I've just gotten an email from a woman who does not want to make her name public and would like to stay out of any further discussion. She just felt that she needed to say something what has been eating her up for some time. Can anybody listen?
I would like to thank to all who are writing on this forum and to thank "devotees" 1,2,3,4,5,6 for their courage and honesty . I don't feel like explaining in many details but I came to the point that it is important to me to open up and tell here that I was once with swAmi in his bedroom. He made me to do "the b…w job" (oral sex). Maybe because it happened only once and I didn't know about such other cases I didn't talk about it to anybody. Of course I was very confused and in a way I am still now, but now I know - that was not "guru's leela" but abuse. While reading testimonies on web site http://sites.google.com/site/paramliar/ I’ve recognized very same details that I saw or went through. Once swaAmi grabbed my breast and squeezed it so strongly that I felt an awful pain (the same thing wrote devotee 3). On another occasion I saw one young disciple licking swAmi's fingers. That was so inappropriate; actually I see all this as very sick and so difficult to "digest" mentally and emotionally. I would like to invite all ex or those who are still swAmi's disciples to write about their experiences. You can explain it with as less or as many details that you feel. You can stay anonymous as I wish to stay but I think that it will help if we speak out.
whoami
Posts: 80
Reply to @storymaker:
So here now is one small example of conduct in yidl which reminds me of what was happening in that prison experiment and also illustrates what I believe is an inappropriate response from the yidl community. This is not an exaggeration but a simple statement of fact and one that will sounds familiar to many people in yidl. The story is from one Australian woman.
Just prior to a program in Vienna this woman opened the kitchen door as the Guru walked past. A breeze went on the Guru so the Guru's response was to slap that woman and the person next to her sharply across the face. Once the Guru moved away the person next to her said: "Oh don't worry about that - that happened all the time in Enenkelstrasse." That was supposed to make this woman feel better. Instead of course it made it worse - why - because that clearly indicated that this was seen as normal behaviour that should be tolerated and in fact was commonly tolerated in yidl.
Then when this woman spoke this same story to a group of centre managers in Australia recently two of the people listening to the story responded publically with "that is spiritual training", or "that is a blessing". When challenged on this point privately the response from one of these people was - "Well actually something similar happened to me too and I also did not feel good about it." But, this person was not willing to speak this publically.
Many people in our society would see this incident as an act of violence, intimidation and public humiliation that was not deserved. Opening a door is not a crime, not even a sin in the spiritual world. Opening a door is not an act worthy of punishment.
This was clearly not an isolated incident but rather a behaviour that was known to many others present and had been witnessed on numerous occassions.
Why does this happen?
Why does the community respond in this way?
Why are such acts not seen as morally wrong?
Why have such things been allowed to be repeated again and again and again?
All these same questions have been asked by the many woman who have been sexually abused or misused by the Guru and other swami's in this organisation. The same questions have been asked by many men who have been publically belittled and humiliated in 'yoga' programs.
The Guru's treatment of members of the yidl community is sometimes that of calculated cruelty. What is so highly disturbing to may people is that this is seen as normal behaviour that should be tolerated and in fact is commonly tolerated in yidl.
People have been saying for months - "Hey - this needs to stop, this is not okay."
This is not an issue of revenge or hate or any such thing.
The people who write here would simply like that behaviour to stop - that is all.
Mercury August 29 2011. Permalink Reply
Posts: 3
Hi everyone! I really don't know where and how to start...I was allways fond of eastern philosophy expecially from India. I starterd sudying them since I was thirteen and I allways thought with my own head, red a lot of books and talked with a lot of people from different religions and spiritual paths. My sister joined yindl cca 4 years ago (I have to mention that we had such a strong bond), after she met XXXXX she fell in love with him, she was mesmerized by him she was talking only about him; "he is the only God on earth, you can not save your soul and get enlightment without him".Of course she went to India without her money ; my parents borrowed cca 5.000 €uros for her to go there and I was going crazy...I saw where this was leading..To make a long story short, after this "magic" trip to India she get lost even more...she saw the light, she feels God and we are all poor people living in illusion..She started making pressure over me and my parents to join Yoga classes, seminars and so on...she is following XXXXX everywhere from India, Edinburgh, Vienna, Strilky....with my parents money and when I say something they say I am jelaous and evil. She took sown my parents too, my mother took mantra and all three together made a crucade against me like I was their worst enemy because I was telling them the organisation is taking so much money from them...money they didn't even have. Then I found Cici's leaving the organisation and then I had finally found the prooves of all what I was thinking...I gave all those statements of all the people leaving the yidl to my parents to see and they were laughing at me, my sister was attacking me that this are lies against the great master, that I am evil and so on, you can imagine...Fire was coming out of her eyes, she is so afraid that I don't talk with my parents but I see it allready too late...their minds are so poisoned now. I called Cici to give me some advice how I can help my sinking family what I can do (because I am sure there are very strong evil forces involved too) but he said he can't help me and he whishes me luck.
I also spoke to people who left the organisation and they seem to be afraid to talk too much about this, they ask me if I dream something Black(?)..that I have to be very cautious cause he is very strong.
Now I am wondering if there is any hope anymore, I will be gratefull if someone could help me or give me some advice.Sorry for my English I am Croatian..best regards to you all fighting for truth...This guy-"God" has to go to jail!!!
CONSIDERING THE ACCUSATIONS ON ALL THE VICTIMS TO BE CRAZY, MENTALLY ILL AND INVENTING STORIES PLEASE READ THESE LINES FROM FREE FORUM:
"But lets see it from inside as a believer. So let's come to a point that we have a Guru and we don't need transparency at all. Guru knows how to do it best. However in longer distance and in such a big organization it has no future because we are not on isolated island. There will always come someone who will try to undermine it and without transparency organization is defenseless. Of course transparency can be against itself if there is something to hide.
Anyhow lets assume we believe in embodied God. Then I should get at least a word of wisdom, from The Knower of past, present and future - a sentence which in its purity and truthfulness would lighten up all the darkness which dwells in hearts of bhaktas because of the doubts and imperfectness. I am longing for such an arrow which would strike my heart and destroy all evil. Like in bhajans.
In return however in first long awaited sentence I got only a quote of Gandhiji which addresses all people who where serving selflessly author of the system many many years - that only joy that they get from life is humiliating others. Seeing in past years their dedication, hard work, open hearts I can't believe what I read. That is not an arrow I was wating.
So no matter when I sit, view is similar. And I don't think any bad karma can fall on people who are searching for dialogue and speak up own mind in a kind way.
And if anyone can help me change my view I would really appreciate."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 22
Reply to @Peter:
Hallo Peter,
I have already sent this privatly to someone on this forum, but I hope that this will help you to understand the law situation in my case... meaning for Czech republic.
§ 186
Sexual coercion (pressure)
(1) Who forces someoneelse by force, threat of violence or the threat of another severe injury to sexual self-abuse, for indecent exposure or who forces to such a behavior someone else abusing his vulnerability will be punished with imprisonment for six months to four years or prohibition .
(2) In the same way will be punished perpetrator, who induces someoneelse to sexual intercourse, to sexual self-abuse (masturbation), for indecent exposure or other comparable conduct abusing victim´s dependency status or his post (position) and the resulting credibility or influence.
(3) imprisonment of one to five years will be imposed on a perpetrator commits the act specified in paragraph 1 or 2
a) a child, or
b) at least two persons.
So point 2 of §186 is suitable for my case. But than there is another law:
Limitation of prosecution
§ 67
(1)
a) dvacet let, jde-li o trestný čin, za který tento zákon ve zvláštní části dovoluje uložení výjimečného trestu a trestný čin spáchaný při vypracování nebo při schvalování privatizačního projektu podle zákona č. 92/1991 Sb., o podmínkách převodu majetku státu na jiné osoby, ve znění pozdějších předpisů, (not able to translate it exactly, but it is about crimes when you can stay in jail for the rest of your life and about crimes about privatization of state property, then the limitation or persecusion is 20 years)
b) twelve years, if the maximum penalty of imprisonment is at least ten years,
c) five years, if the maximum penalty of imprisonment is at least three years,
d) three years for other crimes.
And in this case point c) is suitable... it means 5 years is a period I have in Czech republic for going to authorities. It is too late. Similar situation is in Austria. But there is one more point in their loyal system, if there is one case not longer than 5 years, than you can add another case which is not older than 5 years from the youngest case... and you can make like this a chain... it means that in some circumstances I can be a third in the chain. First case must happened on Austria teritory. Another but is, that I am not an austrian citizen. In case the laws in both countries are similar, than there is a possibility, that austrian court will accept my case also. I think law is quite similar, so it can function.
So now I should wait for 2 other women who will fullfill the time gap between their and my cases.
I hope that now you understand, that forcing us to go to court is irrelevant, because even if we want to do it, in this law system it is impossible now.
Other think is I don't want to get XXXXX to court. It is not aim. My aim is to provide information what can happen to women as well as men in this organization.
It is a part of my healing process.
Just to warn and let on everybody's decision, what she/he will do.
And one more note... you can call me a liar... it is ok... but remember, this permision I give you only for my case, not the others. I am trying to learn not to be dependent on others judgements about me... so you provide me a good training field. And you don´t have to forget, that I know what can happen to you, if you imagine just for a while , that I am not a liar. Whole your structure of your life and believe can colapse in that moment. I went through this for the last 15 years. So if it helps you, call me a liar. But don't expect me to do the same. You are not a liar for me. You believe strongly. So I will not play your game. I still consider you as my friend. This is my freedom. You can consider me to be a liar... it is your freedom. You can stay with XXXXX till the end of your life. I respect it. Take care.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -
Posts: 1
Hello people,
These stories or "testimonies" of the "Devotees" on that website remind me of some dear friends I've had in my life. My best friend when I was about 8 and 9 was treated very badly by her father and her little sister was totally the favourite in the family, so somehow she developed the habit of compulsive lying, making up stories to help herself feel better about herself - to give her some sense of self-power.
Another dear friend who sadly passed away just a few years ago, was a very devoted children's therapist for most of her long working life, but had a very traumatic early life as her father committed suicide, and as a young Jewish woman she had to escape her home country of Germany when the Nazis started to come to power. At some time in her life she developed severe episodes of depression, suicidal tendencies and when I knew her in her later years she had distinct episodes of delusion, hearing voices, paranoia and inappropriate attraction and attachment to a much younger man (60 years younger) eventually to the point of almost complete catatonic stupor when she was then admitted to hospital. Thankfully she came out of that episode and regained some sanity, most of the time seemed completely normal and highly intelligent but occasionally would come out with very odd perceptions that simply were not at all true/real for anyone else.
I also know several people personally who have had mental breakdowns of differing degrees and I have been to at least two residential seminars where people have completely flipped and the police have had to be called for their own safety and for the safety of others. One person took a knife from the kitchen and ran down towards the seminar leader's accommodation in the middle of the night, thankfully stopped by the volunteer on 'guard duty'. And one I witnessed personally when a woman who had shaved her head, was barefoot and clearly unwashed for some time, literally screamed like a banshee and ran around the building completely without any self-control.
It is sad but true that mental illness, mental delusion and mental confusion and especially depression adn bi-polar disorder, are sadly really very common in our modern socieites. And it is not necessarily a degrading thing to say that someone is suffering from mental illness - it is actually the first step to being able to help that person in helping themselves get better and find the treatment that can end their suffering and the suffering their behavour inevitably causes others.
So I have been reading these stories with an open mind and open heart, but with the experiences that I have had or witnessed myself as mentioned above and also my own experiences personally with Gurudev in his private accommodation, there is a large element of doubt in me that these stories actually took place at all.
Here is a really interesting article about a very similar situation and it ends with the words:
"It’s time that we admitted what is right in front of us. Not every woman tells the truth and not every man is a potential rapist."
I pray for everyone in this scenario: pro/anti/accused/accusers and pray that all who need love and support at this time are finding it within themselves and finding it in their friends so that they can come through this with higher learning and greater understanding and love for all.
May we all seek and find the truth.
Posts: 64
Reply to @Roman: I think that there is no need to be rude-when someone disobey xxx clear instruction, then he deserve patience-i am not out of yidl and therefore i know, that the scenario is very similar. First-chidanand is guilty...then some doubts comes-searching in net with some doubts-maybe girls have mental illness, maybe xxx was to rude to them and they want to give him back his treatment. And then our dream -oh my god-we are the lucky one-we have living god guru..slowly dissapearing....what will come then-i dont know:) I stop in this station for awhile...
truthseeker 6:16AM Permalink
Posts: 164
On the freedom of mind-website there is a comment on the book 'The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power' by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad
http://freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/guru-papers/
I particularly see similarities with the current situation in YiDL from the following quote from the book:
“When abuses are publicly exposed, the leader either denies or justifies the behaviors by saying that ‘enemies of the truth’ or ‘the forces of evil’ are trying to subvert his true message. Core members of the group have a huge vested interest in believing him, as their identity is wrapped up in believing in his righteousness. Those who begin to doubt him at first become confused and depressed, and later feel betrayed and angry. The ways people deny and justify are similar: Since supposedly no one who is not enlightened can truly understand the motives of one who is, any criticism can be discounted as a limited perspective. Also, any behavior on the part of the guru, no matter how base, can be imputed to be some secret teaching or message that needs deciphering.”
By holding gurus as perfect and thus beyond ordinary explanations, their presumed specialness can be used to justify anything. Some deeper, occult reason can always be ascribed to anything a guru does: The guru is said to take on the karma of others, and that is why his body has whatever problems it has. The guru is obese or unhealthy because he is too kind to turn down offerings: besides, he gives so much that a little excess is understandable. He punishes those who disobey him not out of anger but out of necessity, as a good father would. He uses sex to teach about energy and detachment. He lives an opulent life to break people’s simplistic preconceptions of what ego-loss should look like; it also shows how detached and unconcerned he is about what others think. For after all, ‘Once enlightened, one can do anything.’ Believing this dictum makes any action justifiable.
People justify and rationalize in gurus what in others would be considered unacceptable because they have a huge emotional investment in believing their guru is both pure and right.”
Posts: 41
Reply to @member:
Actually rather then trying to put those poor girls on your imaginatory lie detector, questioning the credibility of their memories and speculating about what facts can or cannot the others know, much more intelligent approach from your side would be to say yourself something like:
"Well, it's quite strange. There are plenty of people who were happily living their satisfied life in YiDL. They respected and valued the swAmi exactly as me. For many years they would worshipped him, went to satsangs, listetened to his lectures, joyfully sang the bhajans, did the sadhana, repeated the guru mantra... They adored the swAmi and considered him the real Guru like I do. But now they are gone. And some of them are pretty upset and even angry. Why? Why they so drastically changed their opinion? I know that yoga works. It definitely worked for them too. So why they've left? Maybe they really found out something what I don't know yet... Otherwise their abandoning the YiDL and the swAmi doesn't make any sense. Let me think about it a little... Maybe they really know something? They must have some substantional reason that they left such a nice selfrealized swAmi and such all-beneficial organization as YiDL is."
Please, try to change your mindset this way for a while and look at things from different perspective. We understand you. We we're like you. Let's now you try to understand us ;)
Posts: 4
I am mother of one of the girls wich testimonies appeared on the abuse web page.
Baremuenze, if you want to go deeper into the search for the truth, we can speak private, I can email you and you can get the first hand info from my doughter too, if you only want.
I was the one that brought my 14 old doughter to the yoga exercise class in the culture home in our village. When my doughter became extremely involved in other YIDL activities, visiting seminars etc, I became quite worried about all this and started to follow some of the seminars where swAmi convinced me he was an honest teacher. I even took mantra and became his student myself. That's why I was as so many others totaly shocked about this situation.
After I got shocking confession from my doughter, I got contacts with other women with the same experience. The testimonies on the web page are from 6 different women from 5 different countries (2x Slovenia, Germany, New Zealand, Czech R, Croatia), I had long talks by skype with 5 of them. Believe me, mother would rather not believe such a thing, but the evidence was too strong to let any doubts.
It is not true that this came out all in a sudden. They were trying to tell what happened to them to their collegues in the past, but now we see in the public and in front of our eyes what does it mean to touch this subject... the preassure by YIDL and their own „friends“ is tremendous. swAmi himself asked my doughter's best, friends, a couple from which the woman was even her marriage witness, to sent to wide slovenian yoga society a letter with very intimate personal secrets, trusted only to them, to describe her as not credible, and they did it.
---------------
Posts: 74
To @peter "What are you afraid? It will be a legal discussion in the presence of a lawyer."
Well, whilst addressing women who have previously participated in a spiritual discussion in the presence of a self-realized master, this is not exactly confidence inspiring...
Dude, seriously, stop bothering the ladies with this. You are neither funny, interesting, or entertaining. I actually know, understand, and appreciate what is at stake for you here. Remember, I had once been exactly where you are. I used to be equally intransigent, spewing the same regurgitated nonsense just like you. I remember this.
Let me just tell you this. If you were really close to swAmi, or at least moving with the people who are close, you would know, without any doubt, that he had slept with women. Everybody form the inner circle had always known. In the eighties, my mum was as close as they get, she would follow him everywhere translating, at those times, other women very high in the organization would come to our apartment and gossip about this. This was not shocking, this was accepted in those circles, and was considered his private thing, nobody's business. One mystery was why swAmi wasn't just completely open about it, because hiding it caused lots of complications.
I am also convinced that the majority of women were into it. I explained in my first post here, back then he was in great shape, young, very handsome, exotic looking man. It may be embarassing in the retrospect, but it's normal, a celebrity crush. Those days, he could probably have almost anyone for the price of asking, like a rock superstar.
But the operative word here is "almost". With his megalomania, he could not conceive how someone would not want to have sex with him. Every normal man was at least once in a situation where he would start unbuttoning something, or touching something and the girl suddenly says no. Okay, sorry. I guess I misread some signals. Nothing happened, we're cool.
A normal man can comprehend that some women just don't want to have sex with him. Additionally, with normal men, most women are perfectly capable of saying no. With a living God, this may be a different story...
May 6 Permalink
Posts: 0
Hi everybody
I am a deciple of Swami swAmi nearly 20 years, a big part of my grown up years. All what I am writing are my own experience, and I had to inform you as a kind of mental cleaning. What was going on the last months is so painfull for me and moved my life till to bases.
I definatly know many of you here, if not personal, but from the faces, because we surly was together in many seminars, for many years.
But as it seems, it must has happened. The illusion is over, the show is over.
You are mostly man, and I see, that all the stuff is very painfull for you too. Imagine the shock we ( the crowd of sheep- or ordinary deciples ) are facing when reading what was going on behind the walls of our beloved Guru. He was more than father for us, so that is why those abuses are much more painfull then it would be with any other person and can not be compered, even with those abuses in the catholic church. In this case, the wound goes much much deeper.
And I am sure, that those abuses were taking places.
But when I collect all the impressions of YDl– and also my experience over the last 20 years, it is not such surprise afterall. All the things suddenly has gained the meanings- such as:
- Why so many closest deciples of Swami got severe mental problems and are on drugs ( antidepresive etc..), even Swamis, man and women, in Eu and also those who live in India ashrams
- Why all the women, who are around him for years, are so sad, and not practicing yoga at all, and are not so entusiastik of Swami- as we, the crowd of sheep, were, that is why I never wonted to be one of them
- why were always two stories- one for the crowd and the other were inside informations which were curculating
- why was the impression of organization of YDL from seminars so different of reality which was really taking place in the centers.
- Why we- the crowd of sheep- were used only for images or so called canonfutter for ambitions of our leader, and our spiritual goals was pushed in the second plan.
It couldn t be different after knowing all the details now.
Personally I was in a situation with Swami in the past, which is very similar to the stories of young abused girls. As it seems he useses similar patern. But in that time I was already in middle age, and was able to stop the situation on the right time, because I knew that from that point further, everything will be so so wrong. I was trying to talk with Swami about that situation couple of times, but he allways stoped me.
Did I left YDL after that? No, I didn t. I just mentally and also fisicaly depart and closed my self.
My mother told me 20 years ago, that alder women in YDL knew, that Swami lives with one women “ as man and wife”. 20 years ago I didnt belive her.
And I am sure, that many of the closest deciples- so called organizers and others knew for years that part of Swami night life after satsangs.
Whish you all the best, be positive anyway, we shared one important experience in our lives, lets slowly move on.
another post from the forum july 18.2011.
Thank_You July 18 Permalink Reply
Posts: 16
This is my story
I made a choice on what I knew at the time, at that time I was happy to do so.
Actually I travelled with him for six months every day as a "an assessment period"
I knew from the start back then, that if I found something that was not O.K. I would have moved on, despite the deep level of Bhakti that I felt.
When I review my memory from that time 20 years ago, I find no fault in my logic in choosing to follow him.
The fault does not belong to me the fault lies in the hidden information that would have otherwise changed my decision.
I gave 20 years in full love, devotion and with sincere trust and respect.
I gave my best in trying to fulfil his wishes
I quite simply loved and adored him even at the expense of my health, my family, not having children, not creating an older age plan, and living on an amount that can only be described as meagre.
Still he demanded more!
I cherish and value my capacity to love and to give.
I am sorry that he lacks the capacity to receive and present in an honest way.
I am too old and too wise to give away the rest of my life in feeling bitter or unhappy about his dishonesty.
It really is like a wife waking up one morning and finding that the relationship she thought she had doesn’t exist at all and is one sided. Finding out something shocking about the person you loved.
Quite simply I am so relieved to do normal things like bask in the sun, go for a walk, make proper meals.
I find myself suddenly having lots of time for myself and my relationship, we have a cups of tea together!
I am so overjoyed with these simple things.
Only someone who has done Seva 24/7 can appreciate what this all truly means.
Right now after finding out about these hidden situations from trusted sources
Right now given the information I have, I have the choice to stay or to leave.
I choose with the full capacity of my viveka …. to leave.
To leave AND to enjoy my freedom and happiness. I am free.
That is thanks to those people who made this possible.
With love and respect always
Thank_You
Anyway ,, time to go for a walk and feel the ocean breeze on my face and let it catch my silver hair.
Ivan October 16 Permalink Reply
Posts: 157
I am definitely not important for the history of YIDL. But something other is. My story is just an example how people fabricate leaving-stories in order to hide real reasons why somebody left. I heard a lot of such stories during my stay on YIDL. I was always extremely curious about that and claims that they were jealous, angry, too close to fire, suffering too great pressure from guru didn't feel plausible; these didn't sound like good enough reasons. I felt that there is much more into this. These stories were fabricated regularly and the same pattern is followed in fabricating new stories we heard from lun.
The first testimony when one girl told me about her sexual experiences with swampy was mind blowing for me. I was told that in strict confidence and the girl didn't knew that I will not be able to digest it. She found these sex-experiences divine, she still does. She also told me about other women. But I couldn't cope with that. I started to "investigate" and managed to talk first hand to some others. I didn't give much fuss. I understood it is time to go, swampy isn't enlighten guru saint but only a man who couldn't resist and slipped. I even though he initially had good intentions. Five years after leaving, in 2008, I heard new things which were much more abusive and violent and after everything had surfaced I consider him a monster. That's my Story...