Punish

Grabbing Puff

When puff is crouching she goes up and down a bit during that idle animation. Marth's standing grab will (almost?) always miss puff then. To get the grab you will need to do dash grab. Marth's dash grab has two main hitboxes. The one behind is a bit lower but harder to hit due to how you have to space it. So when puff is crouching it takes a while for her to start going down in the animation. The starting part will always get hit by dash grab's hitbox infront. Some stuff to note is that puff goes even lower during jump squat and iirc you can not grab that at all. This is what dash grab looks like for reference:

Killing Puff with a grab as Marth: A realistic guide.

(ALL PERCENTS ARE PRE-GRAB, NOT POST-THROW OR POST-TIPPER CONNECTING. YES I KNOW MELEE CALCULATES KNOCKBACK AFTER THE MOVE LANDS. PERCENTS MAY BE IMPERFECT, I AM NEW TO THIS. ALL PERCENTS HERE ARE GUARANTEED TO TRUE COMBO WITH PORT 1. CONVERSIONS MAY TRUE COMBO SLIGHTLY LONGER THAN LISTED HERE WITH PORT 1, AND ALMOST CERTAINLY DO WITH PORT 4)

Super ultra fast cliff-notes that will not give you a full understanding:

50-77 percent: Mixup=fthrow pivot tip vs dthrow raw tip

78-100 percent: Mixup=fthrow pivot tip vs dthrow pivot tip

100-110 percent: Mixup= fthrow dash+WD tip vs dthrow pivot tip

110-120: Cannot tip DI up+in, must Uair. Other DIs still subject to fthrow dash+WD tip vs dthrow pivot tip

120-130: Dthrow bad, choose to cover down+away and up/up+in, or other DIs. RC dsmash, uair, or dash+WD fsmash respectively.

130-150+Fthrow RC fsmash or uair on reaction.

Firstly, we begin with some ideas and percentages to keep in mind. While fthrow and dthrow create a mixup for tipper fsmash opportunities extremely early (earlier than 35 percent, which is as low as I tested), there are generally better, easier, more consistent and more damaging conversions to go for at those percents, and so our guide will begin at 50 percent, the earliest tipper setups will generally kill on Yoshi’s Story. Beginning at 50 percent, all non-down+away DIs are covered by pivot tipper forward smash. Down+away DI is covered by down throw forward smash, no pivot required. This introduces us to a core theme: While it is not possible until 130 percent to kill all DIs on reaction off of one throw, it is possible to create a 50/50 kill scenario at most percents before then by creating a mixup with fthrow/dthrow. This basic 50/50 (fthrow pivot tipper vs dthrow raw tipper) lasts until 78 percent, when down+away DI is no longer hit by dthrow->raw tipper fsmash. At this percent, Marth must pivot fsmash to cover down+away DI with down throw. Conveniently, 78 is also the percent up+in DI from Puff stops being hit with fthrow pivot tipper. Instead, Marth must dash JC usmash. This is possible on reaction while still covering other non-down+away DIs with pivot tipper - 5/18/2020 Edit: I no longer believe JC upsmash is worth going for unless you recognize an extreme propensity to DI up+in.

The next major milestone is at 82 percent. At 82 percent, straight away DI is no longer hit by fthrow pivot tipper. Instead, Marth must fthrow WD tipper (or dash+WD) tipper, which requires a read/commitment to wavedashing. However, both away and down+away DI are still covered by dthrow pivot tipper, leaving the 50/50 intact This is important mostly because this is the percent Puff no longer has to hit one specific DI to escape fthrow pivot tipper. Still, the basic mixup of fthrow vs dthrow pivot tippers exists for a while longer, lasting until 100 percent.

At 100 Percent, the mixup remains intact but changes its nature. While fthrow pivot tipper covers no DI until 106 percent, away DI and up+away DI require dash+WD fsmash to cover. Because no DI and DI down are also hit by dash+wavedash tipper at these percents, I recommend switching to dash+WD as the default option after fthrow at these percents, as dash+WD can cover DIs that are not down+away or up+in, which are (thankfully) still covered by down throw pivot tipper at these percents.

Things change again at 110. Starting at 110, up and in DI is not smash-attackable, and can only be meaningfully hit by uair. That means that until uair kills, this will always be the DI Puff wishes to hit past 110 percent. All other DIs are still subject to the mixup of fthrow Dash+WD fsmash vs dthrow pivot fsmash until 120 percent. For this reason, I recommend an immediate throw between 110-120 to minimize the Puff’s chances of hitting up+in DI.

Things change again at 120 percent. Dthrow Pivot tipper stops working on DI down+away, and Marth still lacks a meaningful way to cover DI up+in beyond uair. Addtionally, DI straight up also is now only covered by uair. However, on some stages a Puff DIing a throw up+in or up and then getting uair’d can kill past 120 percent. Notably, this always kills on Yoshi’s and Pokemon, and depends on DI and exact percents on other stages. Because dthrow only ever nets up air and dash attack at these percents, and the uair is often too low to kill except on Yoshi’s, at 120 I generally recommend engaging in a mixup not in what throw Marth uses, but in what followup he chooses. Run cancel dsmash to cover DI down+away (true and tippers), uair to cover DI up and DI up+in, and dash+WD fsmash to cover all other DIs. It is important to note here than Marth can dash immediately to cover both down+away and the up/up+in DIs with either RC dsmash or uair on reaction, but most commit to covering other DIs with dash+WD f smash. This allows these percentages to remain a 50/50 in terms of coverage if not throw choice. This is, however, quite difficult, and if pummels are available it is recommended to pummel to 130 to reach the next section.

Finally, we reach the highest percents: 130 and beyond. While it is never ideal to let Puff live until these percents, in real life we must acknowledge that it DOES happen. Luckily, we have a guaranteed kill option at these percents: Fthrow into uair or run cancel fsmash. From 129 to 150 AT LEAST, Marth can fthrow, immediately dash, and then choose to either up air vs up+in or straight up DIs, or run cancel fsmash all other DIs. These true combo, and the cue on whether to end the dash early to go for the uair is visually obvious. Early on in this percent range, the timing window in which run cancel fsmash true combos is relatively narrow, but it DOES true combo even on down and away DI, so long as one dashes immediately after fthrowing Puff and then run cancel fsmashes at the earliest opportunity. Keep in mind this forward smash will not tipper on all possible DIs, but at these percents the only stage that matters on is Dream Land. Furthermore, at the earlier points in this percent range, up air will not kill on Dream Land, further driving home how problematic the stage can be for finding kills in the MU.

Beyond those percents, there are still DIs/throws that can confirm into a kill, but past 150 percent grabbing Puff becomes an unnecessary risk in my opinion. This is in large large part because side b 1 breaks ASDI down at 154, tipper fair, uair, and nair all begin to kill at these percents, and even dtilt sends Puff far off stage. In my humble opinion, grabbing Puff at these percent ranges should only be done as a response to very blatant shield camping. 5/18/2020 edit: This section was wrong. Keep grabbing Puff at these percents or she will shield/crouch for all time.

On tipper Down smash/JC usmash: Technically, it is possible to kill JigglyPuff with forward throw on almost any DI from whenever tipper down smash begins killing on the stage you are on to 150+. This is because any time Puff DIs down+away enough to escape pivot/WD/dash+WD forward smash, dash+WD downsmash or run cancel downsmash true combo. Run cancel downsmash begins true comboing into a tipper at 90 percent, and a fast-enough dash into a precise and quick enough WD true combos from 50 percent or even a little earlier, which is before tipper down smash kills on any stage/stage positioning combination besides near the edge of Yoshi’s. However, what is not realistically possible is reacting to the DI to choose between pivot tipper/dash+WD downsmash/JC up smash. While it is possible to reactively JC usmash up+in DI instead of attempting to pivot tipper, the window for dash+WD downsmash is small enough that Marth must commit immediately upon throwing, making it a hard read on down+away DI. This makes it generally inferior to engaging in forward vs down throw mixups at those percents, as the pivot options cover a much broader range of DIs. Furthermore, the timing window to true combo the downsmash is extremely narrow, and unlike the fsmash it is almost always beaten with a buffered jump out if the Marth is imperfect. This often then leads to a rest. Interestingly, because run cancel down smash begins true comboing into tipper at 90 percent, it may be possible to reactively cover this DI while also covering most/all other DIs with pivot tipper/JC usmash. This is because it does not require the commitment to a WD on a read. Regardless, it would be extremely difficult and would require much more testing. The exception to this rule is vs up+in DI from 100 until whenever fthrow->uair begins killing on the stage that you are on, as JC usmash no longer combos depending on damageflyroll vs damageflyn (it combos longer on damageflyroll) past 100 percent. At this (narrow) percent range, killing Puff is not guaranteed from fthrow even with theoretical frame perfect reactions and DI recognition.

Some closing thoughts:

I recommend instant fthrowing Puff until at least 82. Make them prove they have the ability to hit the down+away DI with consistency. Pivot fsmash is hard enough to be consistent with as it is, no need to add a 50/50 if they’re incapable of hitting the DI. Puff IS capable of option selecting down+away DI while crouching though, so be on the lookout for that to be incorporated more broadly into the metagame. After 82 when more DIs start to escape fthrow pivot tipper, it may be more worthwhile to engage in the mixup intentionally by slowing down the throw on even adding in the pummel. Instant throws become more appealing at 110 when up+in DI becomes truly problematic. However, in the 120s pummeling to 130 becomes very appealing as it generates an opportunity for a guaranteed kill from fthrow

…And that ‘s it. I’ve only listed things here that don’t depend on getting damageflyroll, or else JC usmash and dash+WD fsmash would last longer/work on more DIs. I’m always an easy DM on discord away if you have any questions about this. Just contact @JitaKyoei#4510. I’ll probably never lab throwing Puff again/at least until I lose to one and get mad. Thank you all!