This is a long discussion taken from our earlier site. There is a lot of good advice here from Ken Miller - a sailor with a lot of blue water experience - pardon the many uncorrected errors.
Hi there all, i would like to put a auto pilot / tiller on my 28
compass, i have been looking for some time now at the different types
and brands, saddly i don't trust the sales people alone to make a
purchase, so any input at all will be apreciated
*what size and brand of auto pilot do you have on your tiller - not
wheel, sorry no affence
* how does it go under sail, in a good breeze, not light air's, you
no 15kts plus, does it over heat and pack it in, if the going gets
tough, i no they can only do so much
* do you recomand the brand & size, would you go bigger
* and how much power is required to run it, one battery two
battery's, i don't no only had auto pilots on stink boats
* any problems or hick ups with them
Kind Regards Shane
Hi Shane
I use a Simrad. It's the cheapest - I think it's a TP10 or something? It's had quite a lot of use, water over it etc and still OK but the beeper has stopped working. Handles most conditions well but wanders around more than a good helmsperson. Really makes a huge difference when single handed! Probably be a good idea to protect it with a plastic cover of some sort to keep most of the water off it. Doesn't seem to use a great deal of power. I have a Compass Westerly 26 so you may want the next size up.
Cheers
Mark
I have a Simrad TP2000 for no good reason. My first Navico lasted 15
years and gave good service but I soon found these are suseptible to
rain. In rain or spray I put its plastic raincoat on. Remember these
are only following a magnetic course, they are not a wind vane. On
the wind and under motor they are good. Downwind (pretty square) I
find they don't cope under sail and not good under motor. They are
slow to react and then over react and lose the plot soon after. In the
Simrad range I think the TP1000 should be quite okay due to the
lighter helm forces, that's why I went to the bigger unit for the C29.
Battery, I have always just used a single Deep Cycle battery which is
way past its "Use By" It has been a good system for me and starting
the little diesel doesn't seem to upset the battery. Never had any
issues caused by the pilot.
I prefer not to have the pilot's spigot on top of the tiller where I
can fall on it. I use a sub tiller bracket underneath which is really
good to rest your foot on and steer by (who said C29s are heavy on the
helm!)
In choosing you might consider whether you want to plug a GPS or
remote devices into it.
There is quite a bit more in my book on mounting the pilot. Do it, you
will really enjoy having one on board
Geoff Raebel
Cool Thanks alot Mark & Geoff
Thats the sort of stuff i'm after, i would
like to here more, so any body else thats got any info please jot it
down, even if it's excactly the same or totally different, don't be
shy, just start crunch'n the key board. This will save me doing all
the marina's over, which i will do anyway (thats fun on it's own),
but at least i will be armed with some knowledge on the subject.
very greatful
Shane
Shane,
I too use Navico (now Simrad) and would really just mirror what Geoff says. I put mine beneath the tiller too. Be VERY careful when fitting - but then ask away when you do!
Get an oversize one.
:-)
Colin
*what size and brand of auto pilot do you have on your tiller - not
> wheel, sorry no affence
Raymarine SPX-5. it is for 2 to 6T boats. I do have wheel but the
tiller version is much the same
> * how does it go under sail, in a good breeze, not light air's, you
> no 15kts plus, does it over heat and pack it in, if the going gets
> tough, i no they can only do so much
Quite good so far. better under a stiff breaze than light.
> * do you recomand the brand & size, would you go bigger
If you are out in the big briny i'd go at least one above minimum
recommended
> * and how much power is required to run it, one battery two
> battery's, i don't no only had auto pilots on stink boats.
I run it under one deep cycle but only ever run it for around 18-20nm.
I imagine some sort of power generation is needed for longer trips.
> * any problems or hick ups with them
pain in the butt to set up. quite complicated. if you follow the
instructions it would need to be set up in a trailing dinghy to get
the required distances from potential interference. There's a fluxgate
compass, control head, course computer and wheel drive to wire up and
mess around with (and optional rudder reference unit!). you also have
to 'swing' the fluxgate and 'train' the course computer before using
for nav.
the next model down (ST2000 tiller pilot for 0.5 to 4T) seems a lot
simpler. I think I would avoid the current S1 tiller pilot (need to
buy more gear to make it run properly).
I had a Raymarine ST4000 before and it was brilliant, simple to set up
and kept a great course on all points. Was reliable for may years
(then just decided not to follow a course). The SPX-5 has been great
on limited trials so far.
If you don't go for another brand the Raymarine ST2000 looks pretty
good. nice and simple & raymarine pilots have a pretty good
reputation.
Ian
A tiller pilot is not a great option for serious distance. I like mine for the freedom it gives in low winds and/or on the motor - and it's dead easy to connect in moments. But it's not something I'd leave for a long time.
Although Ken has a very clever setup and will doubtless share at some point.
When we're doing a distance in reasonable winds (ie not too light - hull speed above 2 knots) I always use the vane.
Vane steering is ultra powerful, incredibly clever in the way it works and uses no power at all. It works very well on all points of sail. But if there is a wind shift direction changes too!
I only mention is at all given that Shane is a maverick, hairychested international seafarer.
Colin
Thanks guys you have been really helpful, i'm along the lines of
Colin, i want it for sailing along on those nice relaxing days or
when under motor, and the odd momment when there's a bit of a breeze
on, and i have to grab another can of rum, pull in a fish on the
troll line or nock up a vegimite sanger, the pilot i use at the moment
is a quick lashing around the tiller and on to a clet,
Three to simrad, one to Raymarine, although i don't mind the sound
of Ian's Raymarine SPX- 5, I take it thats the new ST4000, i like the
6T, i dont think i woul;d go any lighter
Thanks Shane
Shane - from what I have seen on earlier converstaions around this subject I too would probably go for the Raymarine now. It sounds pretty good to me.
The Navico (Simrad) that I have tends to weave around until it loses the plot. I think Geoff made the same comment. But then I don't have it connected to the GPS or anything.
I really see it as a step up from the "line & cleat". I have THAT too for the "quick and dirty" fixes in a hurry!
For serious stuff I set the vane up.
Colin
Shane
There was an Autohelm (which is now Raymarine) on my C28 when I bought
her some 8 years ago.
ST1000 I think. Good but I have never gotten around to interfacing
with the wind instruments. I know I can and keep meaning to wire it
up, but never quite get there. In Pittwater it is not that important
and for some 3 + years I have not ventured further
Roger
Shane there was quite a bit of discussion I had with Bill and others
around December on the old site regarding the Raymarine SP1 and the
SPX-5. Don't know if the info is still accessible (Geoff?). Bill was
really happy with his S1 after he bought the optional fluxgate (comes
with a rudder reference unit) otherwise it was not good. The SpX-5 (an
upgrade on the S1) has a fluxgate but you must buy the rudder
reference as an extra!. So far so good but I have not given her a
really good go on all points. Might need to buy the rudder reference
yet!? The unit was around $1900 from memory (whitworths). But I tell
you, talk about not being simple to wire in and set up (though I think
I did a beautiful job!...and I am comparing it to the old ST4000).
Anyway if you do get one I can offer my experience!
Ian
Thats excellent, Thanks feller's and thank you Ian for your offer,
i'l take you up on that when the time comes, i'm good at doing stuff
but not good at reading stuff, especially things like instructions
manuals that's one of my biggest down falls,
p.s if anyone would like to fire up a new post on wind vanes i no
absaluotley nothing about them, and would love to learn from you guy's
& gal's
pps i got my flight details today, flying home 1130 Wensday, but
will be back at sea in three weeks, you no the saying make hay while
the sun shines
CHEERS Shane
Hi Shane
I have an ST 2000+
It is not connected to anything.
I use it extensivly and it gives good service EXCEPT when going down
wind with big waves following.
Actually, even I have problems helming in those conditions.
They are cheap at around $800 and can be virtually rebuilt by
Raymarine for around $350 if they get damaged.
Jim.
Hi Shane,
As Colin alluded too, I have quite a sophisticated setup.
On our previous yacht I had Cetrek auto pilot, this was the brand
recommended to me by all the professional fishermen, it was fantastic,
able to operate in ANY conditions, we cruised continually for five
years and hardly ever touched the helm, even with a spinaker set shy.
Given that, this is what I now use as a bench mark for auto pilots.
Currently I have a Raymarine S1, has now been "upgraded" to SPX-5,
the upgrade involved software programming only. When first fitted in
its standard form I would have given it a score of 4 out of ten.
Light winds and following seas, hopeless. I then did a little more
research and found that a "yaw sensoring computer" was available as an
external extra, this was a Raymarine extra. Upon fitting this extra,
the at sea setup and programing is all automatic, it self learns all
points of sail and the characteristics of the boat, would now give it
a score of 9 out of 10. We very rarely steer our yacht, basically
only to get into the marina and out or when anchoring. It is
interfaced with the chartplotter/gps and wind instruments. The only
complaint I now have is that it is power hungry when set at a high
response level for very accurate course keeping in rough conditions, I
usually run it thru our house battery and have a wind generator
supplying power to this circuit. I figure that the worse conditions
get, the more wind speed I will encounter, the more wind the more
power I generate, so basically who cares how much power the autopilot
uses, as long as the yacht is under control, the wife and I are not
being exhausted with helm work therefore we can concentrate on sail
management and keeping the boat safe.
The price difference between the cheaper units, ST1000 and ST2000 and
the S1 TillerPilot (SPX-5) is well worth it. My opinion on this is
buy the best autopilot you can is you are going offshore, for coastal
and sheltered waters where you may have to sail for one overnight
stint you may JUST get away with the cheaper units, but one day it
could all just catch up with you.
The majority of long distance yachts I talk to here in Hobart, (they
arrive at the rate of about 2 a week into Constitution Dock) all use a
wind vane as well as good quality auto pilots.
Interestingly enough, the serious cruising yachts have also use their
engines far more than one would expect, a fact that we also
experienced when we were cruising. But that's another subject.
Cheers
KenM
Thanks Ken, thats great, i no your neck of the woods pretty well, been
flogged countless times down there in and around the fourties, your
pilot sounds awsome, when you say rough conditions, can you give a
quick run down on your standard rough conditions,that your pilot
handles with no worries, just curious, we had a bit of an inserdent
last year with cyclone Nicholas, i feel a wrong descission was made,
which resaulted in an exciting three days, at the time Nic was a cat
3 trying for a cat 4, , any how it turned (recurved) and mowed us
down, we were full ahead at 16kts for two days, with the swell comming
over our stern port quarter, yes we were in serival mode, regularly
copping 10m plus waves over our stern, and the acassional wave
straight over the hole Port side, there was a standard pattern, but
every now & then a wave would come on a differrent angle and hit us
in the side, sometimes there were gaps in the white out & you could
see them comming accross the other waves, and every now an then they
would piramid sometimes just befor you, sometimes on you, mind you,
you could not always see them, you just felt them, i have some great
fottage of Nic, any how it was a great credit to the vessal and the
auto pilot, there's no way i could of hand steered her that well, she
did not lose her head once, i have no respect for the bloke that took
us into that storm & i no longer sail with him, i was comfortable with
the vessel in the cat 3 but was concerned about the threat of a cat 4,
it was the second dumest thing of seen, we went inbetween Nic and the
land, we were left with no were to run except were Nic sent us, any
how as the eye caught up to us we went around and shot out the top,
the goose sail (sorry steamed) in to the most dangerous quarter,
ps sorry i got abit off track there, I'm now wondering if i should
even post this,
cheers shane
Shane,
You wonder if you should even POST that? Mate - I was enthralled! That is REAL sailing "on the edge"!
Feel very free to say a LOT more! I'm sure that everyone would totally agree! May be in a new post like "Survival Sailing" so it can be indexed and found later.
Makes some of my "rough times" look like a polite tea party!
GREAT stuff!
Can you tell us more about the auto pilot you guys were using? It must have been excellent.
Ken and I have swapped communication about this stuff. For myself I am extremely wary of electonic equipment especially autopilots. Ken is the opposite and I think that the difference is probably that I have only ever seen "tiller pilots" but there are more serious setups - such as what Ken talks of and what I am sure you used too.
I DO like vane streering for its simplicity, raw power and total lack of anything elsectronic, electric or hydraulic.
Keep it coming. I am TOTALLY enjoying your contributions to this forum. Excellent stuff!
Colin
Hi Shane, and anyone else interested.
First, let me make it quite clear that I do NOT consider myself an
expert, I do admit to being "old" and I have been sailing for 40+
years, but I am still learning.
"Rough conditions" this term would depend on your sailing
experience. If you are just starting out, then you would probable
call a 8kts a good sailing breeze and if you were suddenly hit by a
12-15kt gust, you would tell everyone how you were lucky to survive
being knocked down by this monsoon that come out of nowhere. Later on
in your career the wind speed comes up and the definition of rough
goes down.
A few years ago I was caught running for cover in Bass Strait to
Refuge Cove at Wilsons Prom, we had wind speeds of 50+ with a genoa
out on a jammed furler, with only about 15 miles of searoom left
before hitting the hard stuff, and absolutley no hope of carrying the
sail on anything but down wind, certainly not on a reach, things were
getting a bit sticky. I had decided to give it another 30 minutes of
trying to fix and then it would have been resort to a knife to cut the
sail at the foot near the furler and hope it would tear itself off and
leave the mast standing. Fortunately I was able to unjam the furling
line and take the sail in.
When we went away for our five year cruising stint, we became known
(affectionately, I hope) as the "mad Tasmanians" who only seemed to
sail when wind speed exceeded 20kts and did their long hauls in 30kt
conditions. My comments to this was I wanted to get somewhere .
"Rough conditions" are dictated by the weather and the depth of the
water, etc. Conditions become worse quicker in sheltered or enclosed
waters, with a shallow depth than in ocean conditions.
The old saying of "when in doubt, stay out" is not stupid. How many
times have we all read about someone losing their life or boat by
sailing towards a dangerous bar, thinking that they can get in out of
trouble?
How many times have they found a boat abandoned by a panicked crew,
still floating without any damage?
On two different occasions we had the bow sprit on our South Coast 36
touching the trough of the wave in front of us while surfing down big
seas in the Southern Ocean, not sure if I was scared or just
petrified.
On our Challenger 39, which is the boat we went away on, we were
knocked down by a rogue wave with the spreaders in the water while
under auto pilot at about 2am in the morning, as soon as I saw the
wave coming and knew we were in trouble I switched the auto pilot off
and hung on, up we popped, auto back on, clean up a bit, tell the
yacht we were sailing with, which was astern by about a few hundred
metres that we were OK, and it was off again. He told us on the radio
he could see all our keel out of the water, luckily we try and sail at
night with harnesses on and washboards in, if there is any risk of bad
weather. On this occasion there was severe thunderstorms all about.
I carry a "Seabrake" and swear by them for running in big seas. They
make the autopilots work much easier.
Our present autopilot has been given a work out a couple of times when
we have been hit by gusts of 40-45kts when hard on the wind, it
manages to hang on without the boat rounding up only if we ease the
sheets and maintrack quick enough. This is when it is set at a
response rate of 5, there are 9 response rates, I tend to set it at 3
for light winds, 5 for average to rough conditions, we have never had
to use the higher setting yet.
The scariest bit of water I have ever encountered, and I will openly
admit it, I still do not like it, is Banks Strait. With both oceans
being forced thru it from either side, relatively shallow water and
if its wind against tide, lookout.
The large racing yachts use tiller autopilots, with the same computer
set up I am using.
Cheers KenM
Back to the subject.
To get the level of response and course holding required for heavy
weather sailing, you need an auto pilot with a rudder reference unit
so that the computers can sense the amount of counter rudder to apply,
you also need a yaw sensing unit and a computer programme that learns
the motion of the boat. Both the Cetrek and the Raymarine units I
have had have both had the ability to change the programme responses
for sea conditions and rudder reaction time. Both have had programmes
that learn the yawing motion then predict when to apply counter
rudder.
You pay your money, you get the results.
KenM