00:00 Introduction and Personal Reflections
01:58 The Importance of Irish Music Sessions
05:23 Learning Through Listening
07:58 Session Etiquette for Beginners
11:18 The Role of Accompaniment Instruments
14:25 Creating the Right Atmosphere in Sessions
16:48 Respect and Inclusivity in Music
20:04 Navigating Different Skill Levels
22:45 Recording in Sessions
25:00 The Magic of Shared Musical Experiences
27:25 Encouraging New Musicians
29:52 Memorable Sessions and Learning from Heroes
32:46 The Dynamics of Group Sessions
35:26 Awareness and Respect in Sessions
38:11 Final Thoughts on Session Etiquette
Conversational Transcript
*[This is an edited conversational transcript, lightly shaped for readability while keeping the spirit of the original conversation]
What does an Irish music session mean?
Tara:
I am here with Leonard Barry, a fantastic piper I have known and played with for years. I am in his house in Sligo, and I am going to chat to him about his opinion on session etiquette.
Leonard, what does an Irish music session mean to you?
Leonard:
We were talking about this the other night, and I have been thinking about it since.
To be honest, I do not think I would be the musician I am today, nor the person I am today, without the session.
I would not have the circle of friends I have today without the session.
When you are playing sessions from fifteen years of age with your friends, and you are playing right through your twenties, you are around your friends sharing music, learning music and playing music in your formative years, both as a person and as a musician.
That is one side of it.
The other side is the amount of music you actually learn.
We are very lucky in traditional music. I have always said this: your heroes become your friends.
Your heroes are accessible. They are in your community. They are part of your community and part of the wider community.
For me, the majority of that has happened through sessions over the years.
Sessions are hugely important in how you form your friends, the music you learn and your inspiration.
I could not quantify how important it is personally.
Learning session behaviour
Tara:
How did you learn the behaviour of sessions?
Leonard:
Where I am from in Kerry, we had lads down there, and if you were acting the maggot in the session, you would be told fairly quickly.
“Behave yourself or you are not coming back.”
That was kind of it.
Tara:
Could you pinpoint any of those behaviours? What would have been frowned upon?
Leonard:
We would always have been taught, and I still feel this way, that you wait to be asked to join for a few tunes.
We were very lucky. We were always asked.
Then you were given your chance to play a few tunes.
You waited to be asked.
Tara:
So there were always those elders.
Leonard:
There were. They were different times to now.
If you were fifteen, sixteen or seventeen years of age and sitting down with someone in their sixties or seventies, you were going to wait your turn. You were going to wait to be asked.
Tara:
There was that level of respect for elders. We grew up with that. Respect your elders, in a nice way.
Leonard:
Yes. Even in a family setting, it was an unspoken thing you were taught from a young age.
I was very close to my grandparents. My grandfather only died last year, aged one hundred.
The music I learned locally, I learned a lot of it from musicians who were elderly. So there was always that respect there.
Tunes learned from people
Tara:
Do you find you play those tunes differently to tunes you learned from a book, recording or friends in a session?
Leonard:
Oh yes.
The little nuances. The little ornamentations. The little twists.
You can almost hear the person playing it.
One person might do something different to the next person, and that is the beauty of traditional music.
Listening before learning
Tara:
Listening for those nuances is a big part of Irish music. Maybe newcomers do not always understand how much listening should be done.
Leonard:
I do a good bit of teaching, and I have done for many years. I always emphasise how important it is to listen to the music you want to learn.
I still do most of my learning in the car.
You record a tune you want to learn, and you listen to it over and over until it gets into you.
I would definitely not start picking up a tune in the session.
That is the wrong place.
If you do not know it, do not play it.
Can I add to this session?
Tara:
When I go into a session, especially if there are loads of great musicians there, I ask myself: can I add to this session?
If my answer is no, I will sit at the bar and listen. I will get as much out of listening as playing.
Leonard:
There are two sides to that.
If there is a group of friends and the session is hopping, you are mad to get in.
It is session dependent.
But if I walk in and hear great, great players sitting in the corner and there is no room, I will happily sit and listen, because you will always pick up something.
Learning to listen is very important, especially in traditional music.
Tara:
Because the music is not played as written.
Leonard:
No. When you are playing from a book, those are the basic notes.
As Matt Molloy said, the pushing and the pulling is not in it.
Technical ability and knowing when to sit out
Tara:
What about technical ability? If a learner musician is worried they do not have enough technical ability, should they join a session?
Leonard:
There is a place in a session for everyone.
I would wait to be asked.
Or if somebody came down and asked, “Can I join in?” ninety-nine times out of a hundred, I would say yes.
But if someone is not technically or musically at the level of the session, and they do not know the tunes, and they sit there listening, brilliant. You hope they learn from that.
But you do get the odd individual who will play over everything whether they know it or not.
That is a red card offence for me.
If you do not know it, do not play it
Tara:
So you would advise people not to play when they do not know the tune?
Leonard:
Yes.
It could be melody or accompaniment.
I play the pipes, so they are either on or off.
If somebody has a fair idea of a tune and they are of a fair technical ability, and they are tipping away in the background trying to pick it up, I have no problem with that whatsoever.
But I have had instances where somebody comes in on a certain instrument, plays all over the tune, and it has nothing to do with what we are playing.
Then they turn around and say, “I did not know that tune.”
And you think, “Why did you play it then?”
I am more chilled out now, but there was a time when you would be ready to explode.
You would come home in a bad mood.
Why one session can matter so much
Tara:
If you are not out playing as much as you used to, and you only get out the odd time, everything can hang on that one session.
Leonard:
Yes.
We are very lucky in Sligo. There are many great musicians here at all levels.
We have a session in McGlynn’s every Wednesday night. A fair few top-level players come in, better than me, and it is such a joy to go in there and horse it out.
You are in at half nine and out the door at twelve or half twelve. Everybody is there with one focus: tunes.
To play the best tunes. To bounce off each other.
Every week somebody will try to bring something different.
That Wednesday night is crucial to me musically, and even for mental health. Getting out, meeting friends and playing tunes.
Tara:
It is food for the soul.
Leonard:
It is.
One small thing can upset the magic
Tara:
Sometimes people who are not used to sessions, or not used to higher quality sessions, may not realise that people getting out for tunes need it to be amazing.
A small thing can upset that magic.
Leonard:
It happened to me a couple of weeks ago. Somebody came in and played over everything.
I was extremely annoyed that night. The following day, I was annoyed at myself for getting annoyed.
I thought, why are you getting so annoyed at over fifty years of age?
But it shows how important those couple of hours are.
Accompaniment and not dictating the music
Tara:
Beginners on accompaniment instruments might not realise how important their instrument is.
Bodhráns and guitars are fundamentally important. They can make a session fantastic and add magic, but they can also be very disruptive.
Leonard:
The ones that really add to it are the ones that do not dictate the swing, flow or speed of the tune.
I do not like the word backer.
They are the same as me and you. They are musicians there to play tunes, and everybody works together.
A really good session is when everybody is sitting down, nobody is dictating rhythm, nobody is dictating anything, and everyone is listening to each other and playing together.
Some of the most magical moments I have ever had in music have been in sessions like that, where everyone is on the same wavelength.
You are not going to get that every week.
Fresh energy and not becoming the storm
Tara:
Do you think that sometimes happens at festivals when people are a little bit giddy?
Leonard:
It can happen at festivals, and it can happen on a Wednesday night when a good friend who is a great player comes in and brings fresh energy.
Tara:
Like a breath of fresh air.
But you do not want to be the breeze.
Leonard:
Or the storm.
Stepping into somebody else’s space
Tara:
If something already exists in a session, and someone wants to go into that session, they have to be mindful of what is already there.
Leonard:
Yes.
Come up and ask, “Do you mind if I join you for a few tunes?”
I would never say no.
But once you join, just follow.
Listen and follow.
You are stepping into somebody else’s space.
It is like a conversation.
Or like fishing. If lads have been fishing the same spot for years, and then someone comes in who does not know how to fish, with lines everywhere, upsetting the whole place, he will be told where to go by the experienced fishermen.
In traditional music, it is rare that you actually have to tell somebody where to go. Everybody is quite patient and helpful.
The more people who play our music, the better.
When someone is told not to come back
Tara:
I have met people who were told not to return to a session, and my heart went out to them. But I can imagine how frustrated the person was who said it.
Leonard:
You can come across as awful. I have done it. I have told people where to go, and I felt terrible over it.
I am more chilled out now, but I have done it.
It comes back to respect. Be respectful of the situation you are walking into. Be respectful of the musicians who are there every week.
I am always encouraging to young musicians.
But if somebody comes in, sits down and starts beating something, playing out of tune or playing over everything, it makes the night hard work.
It is not enjoyment anymore.
Tara:
Irish music is very inclusive in a broad sense.
Leonard:
It is very inclusive.
In Sligo, we are lucky. There are a lot of musicians around at all levels.
I know there is a learner session on one night, an intermediate session on another night, and a big semi-beginner session another night.
Everybody has their place, and that is right.
People can move up a level, of course. They get more comfortable, build repertoire and rhythm.
It is key to find the people you are comfortable with.
Find your people.
We were lucky because a whole load of us grew up together playing for thirty-five years.
Not everybody has that. Some people took it up late in life, and that is brilliant.
Adult learners and clear guidelines
Tara:
I teach a lot of adult learners. I love the relationship with adults because we can have good banter.
This is one of the reasons I am putting this podcast together. It might become a book eventually.
Adult learners have asked for help. They want clear guidelines.
For example, are people allowed to record in sessions?
Leonard:
I have absolutely no problem with recording. None.
Personally, you do not even have to ask if there is something you do not know and want to record.
Most people do ask, and I have no problem with it.
As long as nobody is going to put it out somewhere or try to make money from it.
The biggest thing is people with cameras and lights flashing into the session. That is an intrusion.
But somebody recording on their phone, work away. I do it myself.
I have loads of recordings of P. J. Hernon lately and a stack of stuff to learn from.
That is how I learned too. I would go to sessions and record a tune because I did not know it.
We had cassette tapes when we were young. Other musicians gave us tapes of tunes from sessions, and we learned so much from them.
If you cannot sit in at the session, you are not going to learn the tune in the session. So record away.
Again, just be respectful of the situation you are in.
Tara:
I think learners do not always realise that experienced musicians also wait to be asked.
Leonard:
I would wait to be asked.
If it is one of the lads we know, they might just give a nod or come over and say, “Come on, sit in here.”
Tara:
I was talking to a very well-known musician today who said the same thing. He would not join a session without being asked. He even found it hard when he moved from one part of the country to another and could not break into the sessions.
That might be a consolation to learners: experienced musicians experience the same thing.
Leonard:
It matters.
If two people I know are sitting at a bar in deep conversation, I am not going to pull up a stool, plant myself in the middle and say, “How are ye lads? Talk to me.”
Music goes to places beyond words.
Sometimes when you have a really good connection with someone you have not seen in a long time, you do not even want to talk. You just want to play.
The music starts the conversation. Then the chat flows after.
Tara:
For newcomers to sessions, what is your advice on joining a session or starting a tune?
Leonard:
Wait to be asked.
It is simple. Wait to be asked.
I would never start a tune in a session that is not one I regularly play in. Ever.
It is not my session. It is not my place.
There are occasions where someone is in the session and you know they are learning, keen and listening. They might start a tune, and I would encourage them.
Tara:
Normally, if it is your session, you might say, “Tara, would you like to start a tune?” Maybe that is something more experienced musicians could do a bit more often.
Leonard:
Everybody has to have their space to play the music. Otherwise, what is the point?
It is not mine. It was given to me. I am lucky to have it, and I will pass on whatever I can to whoever I can.
What does a successful session look like?
Tara:
What does success in a session look like? For an advanced player, beginner or intermediate player?
Leonard:
It is the same success.
It is when the tune is swinging, the people in the pub are into it, the place is hopping and there is atmosphere.
Everybody is listening to each other. Everybody is hopping off each other.
You have forty or fifty people in the pub who are into the music, and they are with you on every note.
That is the same no matter what level you are at.
Tara:
There is an analogy about tractors and trailers. The tractors help pull the trailers.
Leonard:
Yes. In some big sessions, people come in who are not at the same level as the other musicians, but because it is a big session they can play along.
The joy you see in their faces is brilliant.
Those are probably the kinds of sessions that kept me at it when I was a teenager. You start to see, “Hang on, this is craic. This is a buzz. This is fun.”
I was around sixteen when that happened.
Tara:
I remember being brought to sessions when I was about sixteen, in Gweedore, with Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh, Frankie Kennedy and Paul O’Shaughnessy.
I thought, “Oh yes. This is fun. I could definitely do this.”
I also had one of the best festivals of my life at the Patrick O’Keeffe Festival in Castleisland. I did not play a note, but I loved it because there were so many tunes I did not know.
It was like getting the first hit again.
Leonard:
It would be the same for me going to Donegal.
I would sit back, listen and record a few tunes.
The core musicians and where people sit
Tara:
Do you think it is important to have a core set of musicians who can gel and hear each other clearly so they can drive the session?
Leonard:
Yes.
Distance definitely affects it, and I do think it is important to have a core of musicians to drive the session.
But when those core musicians drive it, they should also bring everybody else in, provided everyone is reasonably on the same level.
Tara:
Sometimes somebody can be in the wrong place. Not necessarily wrong in ability, but physically blocking two musicians who would gel together.
If someone is sitting beside you, they block the sound from the person beyond them.
Leonard:
Yes, but you are at the mercy of the situation at festivals.
You cannot really walk into a session and say, “Can you move?”
You are relying on people’s discretion.
I have gone to festivals where I did not play a note because it just did not happen. I could not get a comfortable place.
The pipes are big things too. You need space.
Most organised sessions have two or three people who are the core of the session, and they drive it.
Making room for the music
Tara:
Maybe this is an opportunity to help people understand that if they are not contributing as much, they might offer their seat to someone who can help the session gel.
Leonard:
I have seen that happen, and I have also seen it not happen.
It comes down to self-awareness.
If you can see someone who is a brilliant player looking to connect with someone, and you are physically in the way, then maybe you could consider moving.
It is not meant out of badness. It is about making the music, the occasion, the session and the atmosphere better.
It is bigger than us.
We can only say what we would do. It is up to the person listening to take what they want from it.
Tara:
Maybe Irish people are brilliant at hidden rules. It is all about what is not said, and people from outside Ireland can struggle with that.
They might think, “Why didn’t you just tell me you wanted me to move?”
Leonard:
Maybe.
But you also have to understand that we grew up with it.
There was a certain unwritten set of rules from the time we were fifteen, when we started joining sessions. They are still the rules we go by, even though times have changed.
Tara:
Is there an ideal number of people in a session?
Leonard:
Some of my most memorable sessions were in the Crosses of Annagh in Miltown.
There would have been thirty of us hallions sitting there, and the place was absolutely rocking. I still remember those sessions clearly, more than thirty years later.
They were magical.
But as I have got older, I prefer smaller sessions.
I think it is an age thing.
I see young musicians at festivals now, brilliant musicians, sitting there with twenty of them hammering it out. It is brilliant to see because it is a rite of passage. Those are formative years.
As I have got older, I am as happy with two people as with ten, or even happier.
We had a session in Shoot the Crows in Sligo with about twelve or thirteen of us, and it was absolutely hopping.
It depends on the circumstance.
A gang of people who have not met up for a tune in ages can create a brilliant session.
It is the camaraderie. You are genuinely delighted to see people.
Those big sessions were some of the most memorable moments I ever had, but they are not something I go near now.
Summer schools and parents pushing children into sessions
Tara:
Have summer schools changed?
Leonard:
One thing I have noticed is parents coming in with little Johnny or little Mary and pushing them into the session.
It has happened a good few times over the last few years.
It is not the child’s fault. It is the parent’s fault.
They need awareness.
It might be five or six tutors sitting down in the afternoon after classes. You have done your ten to one class, gone for lunch, and then you meet at two or three for a tune.
That is your outlet for the day because the night-time sessions are big.
Then a parent comes in and pushes a child into the session, and it becomes like doing another class.
This raises the question of whether there should be session etiquette taught at summer schools.
Tara:
Is there a place for a book?
Leonard:
Definitely.
This is not a snobby or elitist thing. It is so everybody can enjoy our music.
It is not ours. We cannot be precious about it. We were given it. We are lucky to play it.
The child with the brand new bodhrán
Tara:
I was at a festival where I was teaching adults. They wanted a tune, so I said I would join them for an hour after class.
We went to a pub, and a parent at the bar was boasting that they had bought their child a bodhrán the day before and that the child had been sitting in with the musicians all day.
These were musicians who had been playing for thirty years.
In what planet is that acceptable?
Leonard:
That is an awareness and education thing.
We have dedicated most of our lives to learning this music, and we are still learning.
For someone to buy a bodhrán and come in and start practising in the session, that is not acceptable to me.
If it is a complete beginner session and everyone is at the same level, fair enough.
But not when you are dealing with people who have been playing a long, long time.
People need to realise, if you are listening to this and you are a beginner, nobody is out to upset you.
We will help.
But have respect for where everybody is coming from in that situation.
Read the room.
Tara:
What do you think about noodling?
Leonard:
If I cannot hear the noodling, it does not really bother me. If I can hear it, it is distracting.
Tara:
I am thinking about in between tunes, when you are chatting to someone and someone, often on guitar or accordion, is noodling.
It can feel like they are trying to nudge you to play the tune they want so they can join in.
Leonard:
It is not something I have come across a lot, but when I have, it has driven me mad.
If you come across it regularly, it can drive you nuts.
Part of a session is the conversation in between tunes: where did you get that tune, what is the name, where did it come from, what version is it?
There is education in that.
And sometimes you are talking about GAA matches or Christmas lights. But that space is part of the session.
If an adult is noodling deliberately, they pretty much know what they are doing.
With children, they may not know any better. They might just be practising.
But when adults do it with an attitude, it can be annoying.
There has to be space for a frank conversation if it is happening consistently, without anybody falling out.
You might need to say, “You are most welcome, but stop noodling in between every set of tunes.”
Difficult situations and being told off
Tara:
How would you advise people to deal with awkward situations, maybe on both sides of it?
Have you ever been on the receiving end?
Leonard:
Yes. When I was young, I acted the maggot, drinking pints when I was not supposed to be drinking pints.
I was told to shut up and behave myself, otherwise I was not coming back in.
I shut up and behaved myself, and that was the end of it.
It was not nice to receive, but they were right. I had huge respect for the lads who told me.
I have also had situations where I have said, “Look, maybe sit this one out if you do not know it.”
And one time in town here, I said, “If you do not know the tune, do not play it.”
I have told people where to go when they were arrogant, rude and had been given five or six chances.
It can be one of two things.
You can try to give someone advice, bring them on, and they take it. Then ten minutes later, you might ask, “Do you want to start a tune?”
But if you are trying to help someone and you get attitude back, then you think, “Hang on. I was trying to help you here.”
I have not had to do that in a long time, but I have had to do it, and it is horrible.
It is horrible for them, and I felt horrible after doing it.
But they were completely ruining the music for everybody.
The session belongs to the whole room
Leonard:
A session is not just about the individuals playing music in the corner.
It is the atmosphere in the whole pub. It is the people sitting there enjoying it. It is the publican who is paying in some way for people to sit in the corner and play.
A session is a collective thing between everybody in the room.
From the five-year-old girl in the corner to the ninety-year-old man at the bar, everybody has a role to play in a session.
I firmly believe that.
Tara:
What do you think about clapping along with tunes?
Leonard:
No.
Only a couple of weeks ago I had to say, “Will you just stop clapping with the tunes?”
Most people who do that are drunk.
But clapping drives me mad, whether it is in a concert or a session.
Tara:
The time delay distorts everything.
The music travels to the listener, they clap a second later, then the clap travels back to us a second later again. If you see musicians crouching down, they are trying to hear the music rather than the clapping.
Leonard:
For me, it is a firm no.
General advice for musicians
Tara:
What general advice would you give musicians?
Leonard:
Read the room.
Be respectful.
Have manners.
Recognise your own ability level.
Musicians are approachable.
At the very start, I said that sessions were about meeting our heroes. I am very conscious of that.
Suss out what is going on. Listen for fifteen or twenty minutes. You will get a fair gauge of the repertoire.
Do not sit in, plant yourself in the middle of a session and start blasting out tunes.
Nobody does that at any level.
Nobody I know does that in traditional music.
Positive and negative session experiences
Tara:
The mystery question is: can you describe a positive or negative experience you have had in a session in Irish music?
Leonard:
Thankfully, I have had far more positives than negatives.
I was a huge fan of The Bothy Band. The very first tune I heard on pipes was The Pipe on the Hob when I was working on my uncle’s farm.
They got me a Walkman, and the first cassette in that Walkman was The Bothy Band. That was the first time I heard the pipes, when I was about thirteen or fourteen.
To sit in a session in Matt Molloy’s pub with Kevin Burke, Matt Molloy and a few others was memorable.
The big sessions with the West Limerick gang, Derek Hickey, all the boys, and yourself down at the Crosses of Annagh in Miltown were so good.
The Wednesday nights in McGlynn’s, when P. J. Hernon comes in, playing with Mossie Martin, Michael Holmes and others, are just a joy.
There are far more positive experiences than negative.
The negatives are usually people who have no idea how to behave, come in, disrupt the session and play over every tune without knowing what is going on.
If you are out there listening, read the room.
Be respectful.
If you do not know the session, sit back and listen for fifteen or twenty minutes to gauge the repertoire.
Repertoire is key.
If I go to Donegal, the repertoire is very different from what I play in Sligo, even though I am only an hour and a half down the road.
Tara:
Since we have played together for so long, it would be remiss of us not to have a wee tune at the end.
Thank you so much, Leonard Barry.
Leonard:
Thank you, Tara.
This conversation with Leonard Barry goes to the heart of why sessions matter.
For Leonard, the session did not just shape his music. It shaped his friendships, his community and his life.
That is why respect matters so much.
His advice is simple, but not shallow: listen first, wait to be asked, read the room, know your level, know the repertoire, and do not play over tunes you do not know.
There is a place for everyone in the music, but that does not mean every person belongs in every seat, in every session, at every moment.
That is the harder truth.
Leonard’s strongest point is that the session is bigger than the musicians in the corner. It belongs to the whole room: the players, the listeners, the publican, the children, the older people at the bar, and the atmosphere they all help create.
A good session is not only about ability.
It is about awareness.
It is about knowing when to play, when to listen, when to record, when to move, when to make space, and when to hold your tongue.
And it is about remembering that the music was given to us.
We are lucky to have it.
The least we can do is treat it, and each other, with respect.
https://leonardbarrymusic.com
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