00:00 - Introduction and celebration of the podcast's first birthday
02:00 - The podcast as community-driven curriculum
05:00 - The importance of session etiquette and community building
09:00 - Surprising insights about listener behaviours and expectations
13:00 - The influence of Irish session culture worldwide
18:00 - Challenges leader face: venue restrictions and diversity of players
23:00 - The 'read the room' principle across social contexts
27:00 - The significance of contribution and vibe in music sessions
33:00 - The impact of musical background (classical trauma) on session participation
42:00 - Overcoming nervousness and building confidence in new players
50:00 - Session dynamics, respecting tradition, and including everyone
66:00 - What makes a session magical and how to preserve that magic
75:00 - The value of community connection and shared musical experience
85:00 - The importance of listening and embracing mistakes within community music
90:00 - Practical resources: learning tools, session directories, and online communities
100:00 - Future directions: global session exchange and digital connectivity
110:00 - Final reflections: advice for newcomers and how to find your tribe
Conversational Transcript
*[This is an edited conversational transcript, lightly shaped for readability while keeping the spirit of the original conversation]
Welcome to the 1st birthday celebration
Tara:
Welcome to In Tune with Tradition, perspectives on session etiquette in Irish traditional music.
This episode is a little bit different.
What you are about to hear is the recording of our first birthday celebration, streamed live on YouTube with listeners joining us from around the world.
It was a chance to look back on the first year of the podcast, reflect on some of the conversations we have had, and most importantly, celebrate the community that has grown around the shared love of Irish music sessions.
I was joined by four wonderful guests: Michael Walsh, Michael Eskin, Lori Madden and Mimi Vidaver-Davis.
Before we begin, I would like to ask a small favour.
This podcast has always been free, and it always will be.
If these conversations have helped you enjoy sessions a little bit more, or feel a little more confident or comfortable, or simply made you think differently about the tradition, and you are in a position to support this work, I would love to welcome you to the Patreon community.
Your support does not unlock extra content. It simply helps keep these conversations going. It helps me record more interviews and gives me the time to continue mapping this remarkable tradition that we all love so much.
You will find the link on the support page at SessionEtiquette.com.
Now, let’s celebrate one year of In Tune with Tradition.
Happy birthday to the podcast.
Introducing the live panel
Tara:
We are live.
Hello, everybody.
Welcome to the first birthday celebrations of the In Tune with Tradition podcast.
This is also the first live podcast I have done, so hopefully the tech gremlins will not ruin everything.
We do have some thunder in the house tonight, not in Ireland, but in Virginia in the States, where some of our guests are based.
If anyone has questions, you can leave them in the YouTube chat.
I will introduce my guests.
First, we have Dr Michael Walsh, who has just got his doctorate from Manchester in the UK and is based in Sheffield.
You host the Whistles Club, and you have been using the podcast almost like a curriculum for the club. You are an educationalist, an ethnomusicologist, and a flute and whistle player.
Michael Walsh:
Well said. That is a hard word to say.
Tara:
Then we have Michael Eskin from San Diego in California.
Michael has been running a weekly session for the last twenty-six years. He builds music software, and he came up with the amazing idea of doing a podcast club for his music group as part of the San Diego Comhaltas group.
They have been listening to different episodes of the podcast and then meeting once a month to discuss them.
Then we have Lori Madden, director of the Blue Ridge Irish Music School in Charlottesville, Virginia.
I gave a talk at the school when they were on tour here in Ireland a couple of weeks ago. I hope I did not scare anybody.
Lori:
It was a great opening for everybody.
If they had fears, they were able to air them and get some reassurance.
I think everybody got something out of it. It was a great first day of our two-week tour in Ireland.
Tara:
And then we have Mimi Vidaver-Davis, who teaches at the Blue Ridge Irish Music School as well.
I met Lori and Mimi very recently, and we had great fun. The group was beautiful.
Why Tara started the podcast
Tara:
I want to start with why I began the podcast.
I have a muse for this podcast. He is one of my fiddle students.
I have always tended to teach adults more than children. Over the last thirty years, teaching at summer schools and independently, I seemed to be helping adults a lot with anxiety.
At first, I thought it was performance anxiety.
This fiddle student is a retired doctor, and I asked him if he would be my medical advisor if I were to write a book on music performance.
He said, “Yes, I would love that. But what we would actually do better with is a book about session etiquette.”
I said, “Absolutely no way. I am not going near that subject. It is horrible. People can get so offended.”
But he said the reason people have performance anxiety is because of the lack of clarity around session etiquette and how they are supposed to act.
He said if he had something like that over the last twenty years, he would have avoided so many mistakes.
Eventually, he talked me around to the possibility of doing a book on session etiquette.
I said I would need to talk to people first before writing a book, because it could not just be my opinion. It would need to pull together a wider community view.
I said I might record those conversations, and as a throwaway comment I said I might release them as a podcast.
That happened first.
The book has not really happened yet, because the podcast has taken over my life.
What surprised Tara in the first year
Tara:
What surprised me over the last year is how many people, especially those worried about joining sessions or still learning, thought that once they got to a certain level they would not have to think about etiquette anymore.
Actually, no.
We all have to think about etiquette.
We might not think about it as much when we are more experienced, but it still crosses our mind in a lot of sessions.
Another thing that surprised me was the parallel with life.
It is not just Irish music sessions that have etiquette. We have etiquette everywhere: starting a new job, driving on the road, joining a motorway, friend circles, family circles.
I have also been surprised by how the podcast has been shared by people in WhatsApp groups around the world.
It has brought me on a journey of discovery. I have learned a lot about people, anxieties and coping mechanisms.
One other thing that surprised me is that when the microphone is turned on, people become quite vague.
Before we record, they might say, “Oh yes, and this, and this, and this.”
Then as soon as the microphone comes on, they think, “I do not want to say that.”
They hide behind things and do not always give their full opinion.
Then when the microphone is off, they say, “Oh yes, and this, and this.”
And I am thinking, why did you not say any of that when we recorded?
What did people think when they first heard about the podcast?
Tara:
The first time you heard there was a podcast about etiquette in Irish music sessions, what did you think?
Michael Eskin, I will start with you.
Michael Eskin:
I was a big fan of Barry Foy’s book.
Being involved with the Comhaltas chapter, we have a weekly tune teaching class at the House of Ireland in Balboa Park.
I also run the session.
I thought anything I could provide to people would help. I keep a copy of Barry’s book in the back of my car, so if people are riding with me to a session, I can give them something to look at.
The first time I listened to the podcast, I thought, this is exactly the message I need to give these people.
It was great to say, “Go listen to this, because this will save you an enormous amount of time and energy.”
It is a huge jump to move from the House of Ireland, which is a safe walled-garden thing with its own tune book, into a pub session.
People are moving away from sheet music and learning by ear, and we have monthly tune teaching events.
But taking the next step and coming to the session is a huge jump.
Anything I can do to prepare them and answer their questions is great.
I immediately started telling everyone in the Comhaltas chapter, “You need to listen to this.”
Not everybody’s end goal is to play in a pub session. But for those who are interested or curious, this can grease the skids in a real way.
It is one thing to say, “Go buy this book.”
It is much easier to say, “Go to this link and listen to this podcast.”
A valuable resource for learners
Tara:
Did you think it was necessary, or did it sound like a crazy idea?
Michael Eskin:
My view has not changed.
I still think it is probably one of the most valuable resources out there for people who want to get into sessions.
There is absolutely a need for it.
It is not just that I have one copy of a book in the back of my car. If I am trying to deliver this message to twenty or thirty people in a Comhaltas chapter, I can use a QR code and say, “Go here.”
The availability of it is really valuable.
A digestible way to talk about difficult things
Tara:
Mimi, what did you think when you first heard about the podcast?
Mimi:
I thought, I need to listen to this and see what it is about.
You might have had three episodes out at the time.
As a teacher, similar to what Michael said, I thought this was a digestible, pleasant and informative way for people to have conversations that we had been trying to have in our community for many years, with varying degrees of success.
I started telling people about it right away.
What struck me was that it was not just a list of things.
It was these wonderful conversations that meandered around different topics: music, learning music, teaching music, early memories, and musicians that those of us living in the States may not have access to in person.
As someone really invested in this music, it was special to hear those conversations, whether they were about sessions or not.
It is a good teaching tool and fun to listen to.
Academic work, fear and session culture
Tara:
Michael Walsh, what about you?
Michael Walsh:
I found it a great resource.
I have spent quite a bit of time in my academic work looking at sessions, both in Asturias and at what people have written about sessions.
There has been some great work done, but it can be dense.
Trying to explain the complexities and mores of sessions in a simple way is quite tricky.
I have found that both teaching undergraduates at the university in Sheffield, and in the Whistles Club, people are filled with fear for different reasons.
For some undergraduates, going somewhere without printed music is frightening.
Then there are people coming from folk music into an Irish traditional session, wondering what the differences are and what the rules are.
At my Whistles Club, we have a certain amount of time to sit, play, learn tunes and chat about Irish culture, language and session culture.
But you cannot fit everything in.
What is great about the podcast is that I can say, “Go and listen to Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh’s episode,” or “Listen to Deirdre’s episode.”
Deirdre used the word “knob” today, which made me laugh.
There are so many contexts, ideas and perspectives.
I tell people to dip into the episodes. Maybe it will take away some of the fear about going into a session.
It is absolutely a valuable resource.
The insider-outsider perspective
Tara:
Lori, what did you think when you first heard about it?
Lori:
Like Mimi, I thought I had to check it out and listen to it.
I am in a unique insider-outsider position because I do not play an instrument in the session.
But I have been around a thriving Irish music scene in Charlottesville, Virginia, for twenty-five or twenty-seven years.
I came into it with my kids, who are now grown up.
At the time, they were starting Irish dance classes with Mimi.
I have had an interesting relationship with it because I have been in and around the music for a long time, with close friends and family members involved.
The Blue Ridge Irish Music School started in 2000 with a trip to Ireland.
After the first four years, I was sort of left holding the bag and had to decide whether to keep putting energy into it.
I did, with a lot of help from people who knew far more than I did.
When you have a school that has sessions, you see where the problems arise from all sides: learners, advanced players, and everyone trying to bridge that gap.
What is brilliant about the podcast is that we can now say, “This is a BRIMS-sponsored session, and this is our format.”
Our session starts with a beginner slow session for an hour, and then the paid session leader keeps things on task. By 10 or 10.30, people are doing whatever.
The podcast means the word is coming from respected people, not just from us.
It is not one person’s personal opinion about what they like or do not like.
It ranges from basic manners to recognising that everybody is human and trying to find their place.
Seeing broadly rather than deeply
Tara:
You have a unique overview of things.
You do not have skin in the game in quite the same way.
Lori:
I do not see more deeply, but I see more broadly.
I am very careful not to preach to people who know more about the music than I do.
I would never try to tell people how to play their instrument or what makes a good musician.
I try to help create an environment where these things can happen, where people have access to them and can talk about them.
Tara:
What themes have stood out from the podcast so far?
Michael Eskin:
The recurring theme is “read the room.”
You hear that in almost every episode.
It is not just Irish traditional music. It is any social gathering.
Sometimes I use things like bowling leagues to explain why you cannot bring your tuba.
If you came into a bowling league and started randomly throwing balls down lanes, that would not be okay.
Read the room means taking time.
Do not just jump in.
Observe.
The people who have been most successful joining our session are often people who came for months before I even realised they were musicians.
They listened and understood.
That is useful even for experienced players.
If you travel and walk into a session, take a moment.
Is this a session?
Is it actually a gig?
Are these beginners taking turns?
Figure out the rules and norms.
Wait to be asked, or ask.
Do not just sit down.
Figure out who is in charge, or if anyone is in charge.
Sometimes there is nobody in charge.
Turn off your inner conversation and be aware of what you are walking into.
Do not be in a hurry.
You have all night.
Michael Eskin:
Another theme I hear a lot is the question: is there something I can contribute here?
If I walked into a session with the Chieftains, would I sit down and play?
Probably not.
That might be an opportunity to sit and watch.
Where can you contribute?
And where can the session contribute to you more than you can contribute to it?
That is important.
Tara:
I used to say, “How can I contribute to this session?”
Now I am starting to tease that out more as, “How can I contribute to the vibe of this session?”
Maybe I could contribute musically, but my vibe might not contribute.
Michael Eskin:
Exactly.
I play a lot of B/C box now, and in my sessions we play a lot of polkas and slides.
But there are places where that is the last thing they want.
If you walk into a session where all they play is reels and jigs, and you throw seven polkas in a row at them, you are not contributing.
You are imposing your norms on them.
You need to notice.
Maybe there has not been a single hornpipe all night.
Maybe these are people who do not play hornpipes.
Michael Walsh:
I agree with Michael.
“What can I contribute?” is a really useful question because it reassures people that they can sit in and think about it.
Kevin Crawford talked about the people who know the music but are not necessarily playing.
People like Lori, who add to the vibe, are absolutely vital.
Sometimes you can just not play and still be part of the vibe.
The venue problem in the United States
Lori:
A lot of this, especially in the States, has to do with venues.
In Ireland, sessions are part of the culture in pubs.
Here, if you want a place for a session, you often have to convince the manager or owner.
They ask, “What is it? It is not a performance, but people are coming in?”
They may not eat, drink or tip.
Sometimes we find a place, and then people come in, move chairs around, do not move them back, do not order food, do not tip, even if they only had water.
That can create problems.
We have also seen the divide between learners and advanced players.
One thing I have learned is that there is a place for everybody.
I told my kids, when they were young, “If I ever hear that you dissed somebody because they played The Kesh Jig in a session, you will be in so much trouble with me.”
I still feel that way.
But I also understand the plight of the advanced player.
It is hard to navigate.
Michael Walsh:
Never diss The Kesh Jig.
A friend of mine in Manchester calls it the money spinner.
If you play it on stage to a not very knowledgeable audience, they will go mad for it.
I teach it to everyone.
Everyone knows it.
If you are a beginner and you suss out the session, it can be a key to getting in there.
There is snobbery around it, but it is useful.
Lori:
There is a reason everyone knows some of these tunes.
They are played, and they are good.
Session access and urgency outside Ireland
Mimi:
The themes that jump out at me have to do with access.
There is a difference between Irish guests and American guests because access to sessions is different.
Sometimes in Ireland, someone might say, “You can just sit and wait until the next one.”
But in the United States, there might be one session in your town, or no sessions.
Maybe you have to drive an hour and a half to a session that happens once a month.
That creates a different feeling.
There can be a sense of urgency around sessions.
It makes going to a session less casual.
Michael Eskin:
That is absolutely true.
In San Diego, when we first started the session, there were only one or two sessions in town.
One was a big wild session with seven bodhráns and five guitars, a crazy party.
Another was very serious.
It was frustrating because there was not always a place for everyone.
I have come to think of it like people finding their tribe.
There is a danger, when talking about session etiquette, of assuming everyone has to come at it the same way.
I used to wonder why people from the House of Ireland did not want to come to the pub sessions.
Then I realised they just want to play with their friends, the twenty tunes they know.
If they do that for the rest of their lives and are happy, that is fine.
Peace happens when there are enough venues for people to find their place.
Tension happens when there are not enough venues, and people with completely different approaches are forced into one space.
No one is necessarily wrong.
They are just coming from different places.
Why do people feel nervous joining sessions?
Tara:
Why do people feel nervous or anxious joining sessions?
Michael Walsh:
A lot of it is adult learners.
I grew up in Manchester in the Irish community, playing in sessions through Comhaltas and in pubs.
We were used to it.
But for someone coming in as an adult, it is nerve-racking.
Then there is the issue of sheet music and repertoire.
People think, “There are millions of tunes. How am I ever going to know what to do?”
Deirdre gave a good strategy: have two tunes ready.
If someone asks you to play, you can play them.
That gives confidence.
It is fear.
It is a big thing going into a place where people look as if they know what they are doing.
Classical trauma and sheet music
Tara:
What about those who do not feel nervous and may lack self-awareness?
Michael Eskin:
Those people, if you can harness their energy and direct it, often become really good contributors to the scene, if their ego is not tied up in it.
You get people who have been playing for a couple of years, know fifty tunes and think they have got it.
They may confidently say, “We are going to play Kesh and Morrisons.”
I appreciate the enthusiasm, if they are not wrecking everything.
With adult learners, especially those using sheet music, I think there is often classical trauma.
If people can read sheet music, they may have had classical training.
Many of us who played classical music have had experiences of being scolded: “That is a B flat.”
Classical players are trained to play what is on the page, and if you do not, you are in trouble.
There can be a residual trauma from that.
We are not trained to learn by ear, so we go back to the sheet music as a security blanket.
The challenge is to help people understand that there is something beyond that.
Learning by ear can change everything
Tara:
I remember teaching a fiddle class with a classical violinist who insisted she needed the notes.
I said I would be teaching by ear.
She said, “No, no, no, I need the notes.”
I said, “I am not going to give you the notes.”
By the end of the day, she could not believe how well she could hear.
Michael Eskin:
I see that a lot with players who say, “I cannot learn by ear.”
Then you get them to experience it.
We have a tune class before our monthly Comhaltas sessions. I teach for an hour by ear.
As soon as people have a few successful experiences learning tunes by ear, they realise how much more they own it than something they have been reading for years.
All they need is one experience of being successful.
Then it opens the door.
Jumping in at the deep end
Mimi:
I had that experience.
I played classical flute from the age of ten through high school and into college.
Around eleven or twelve, I heard Irish music for the first time and thought, that is what I really want to do.
When I was fifteen, I got a wooden flute and went to a summer school in Elkins, West Virginia, at the Augusta Heritage Center.
Mike Rafferty was the flute teacher that year.
He did not read music. He did not even really tell you what note he was playing.
It was a jump in the deep end.
I either got something out of it, or I did not.
The only way out was through.
It was learn by ear or not learn at all.
I had never been taught something chunk by chunk before.
I realised I could do it.
After that, whenever we went to New York, I would look him up and he would teach me a few tunes.
It was a special experience.
But I was motivated because I loved the music so much.
That intrinsic motivation matters.
If someone loves the music, that is the driver.
Lori:
Another reason people can feel nervous is that they know there is critique going on in the group.
We are not New York, Baltimore or Chicago.
We have a fairly tight scene.
If somebody hears a story, it gets blown up, especially if they are new or bringing a guitar.
I have heard people say, “I will never bring a guitar to this session.”
Maybe that person is better off, or maybe not.
But that fear can become a reputation effect in a small community.
Michael Eskin:
Backup players often do not understand how high the bar is.
When a random guitar player walks into our session, you can feel everyone go, “Please no.”
Sometimes people surprise us.
But the responsibility of a backing player or bodhrán player is very high.
A single bad bodhrán player or guitar player can wreck a session.
A whistle player probably cannot, in the sea of things.
Someone coming from a folk or old-time world may not know what they do not know.
They may not understand the modal changes, the tunes, or the depth of responsibility.
If someone wants to do backing, they need to understand they have chosen something really challenging.
How do you handle a difficult conversation?
Tara:
That kind of conversation has to happen quietly and subtly, maybe at the end of the night.
Michael Eskin:
You cannot do it in front of people.
It is kind, but it is also brutal.
Michael Walsh:
A lot of what is okay and not okay is subjective.
It is harder in smaller towns with less choice.
In Sheffield, you can find your tribe.
There are sessions with highly skilled musicians and tasty guitar backing.
There are also sessions with a punky attitude, full of young people improving all the time.
Who is to say what is right?
You need enough space for different session cultures.
What makes a session magical?
Tara:
What makes a session magical for you?
Can we teach it?
And what kills that magic?
Mimi, I will start with you.
Mimi:
For me, it is finding the right combination of playing and not playing.
What is magical is having tunes come up that I would not have thought of myself.
I want to hear what is in other people’s brains.
When there is sharing back and forth, and people are dredging things up from the depths, saying, “What about this one?” or “What about this one?”, that is the most fun for me.
It is people finding a connection through tunes they feel are special.
Mimi:
We can encourage people to really listen to the music as they are learning.
If you come to it as a child, it is different.
If you are an adult learner, there is some retroactive steeping you have to do.
It is like learning a language.
You have to immerse yourself in the music to become fluent.
That fluency leads to the ability to share back and forth.
I tell my students to put the music on in the car, while doing the dishes, while gardening, as the soundtrack to their life.
If you did not grow up with it, you have to take that extra step.
Without that, it is hard to get to the point where the music becomes deeply rooted.
Mimi:
For me, ambient noise can kill it.
I have trouble picking out what I want to hear if there is a lot of oral chaos.
My favourite thing is to have a fiddle player to my left, so I can really click in.
A flute and fiddle thing is my all-time favourite.
If I am far removed, or there is a big buffer of bodhráns and guitars before I can hear another melody instrument, it is hard to lock in.
A lot of jangling sounds can make it almost impossible to play.
Tara:
Lori, what makes a session magical for you?
Lori:
I am usually sitting at the bar, with the musicians a few feet away.
A lot of the time, I am not actively listening. I am soaking it in.
People come by on their way to get a beer or go to the restroom, and we talk.
Then a tune starts, and suddenly I have lost them.
They have to go.
I love when somebody takes a brave, bold step.
At our school, Fiona Balistreri teaches the singing class, and sometimes the singers all show up.
It is usually a small number, and they sing.
Everybody is attentive and respectful, and you can see the singers owning it and feeling good about it.
I love seeing the school and the session connect.
The Tuesday night session follows classes, so people are coming from one to the other.
For some, it is their first chance to start a tune in that first slow hour.
When the director brain has to switch on
Tara:
What kills the magic for you?
Lori:
When the director part of my brain has to kick in.
I am not sitting there scrutinising what everybody does.
But sometimes something happens that you cannot miss.
Then I have to think, what are we going to do about this?
There is a rotating group of session leaders, all wonderful musicians and people, who bring different perspectives.
I like when the session is in the background and people are having the experience.
I do not like when I have to think, “What are we going to do about this now?”
Familiarity, eclecticism and friendship
Tara:
Michael Walsh, what makes a session magical for you?
Michael Walsh:
Probably the eclecticism, which appeals to my ADHD head.
In Sheffield, we had a pub called Fagan’s, and the landlord used to curate things.
He would come out and sing if the vibe was not right.
You could have anything from Duane Eddy to a traditional session, and somehow it would meld.
I also love familiarity.
Playing with people you grew up with, people you have shared laughs with, people you lived with in mad houses after university, who now have grown-up kids and have become respectable.
Every so often, you get to sit and play with them again, and there is comfort to it.
It is community, Irishness and friendship.
Michael Walsh:
People not being nice.
You will meet difficult people, and people have off nights.
If someone is being a bit of a knob or a dick, give them another chance.
But ego stuff is tiresome.
You can often harness people’s energy by chatting to them.
But just not being nice kills it.
It is folk music for simple folk like us.
Get your head out of your backside.
Tara:
Michael Eskin, what makes a session magical for you?
Michael Eskin:
For me, it is when we are in the heat of it, everyone has the same lilt and swing, and we are together.
It is about where our attention is focused.
Everyone is focused outward, actively listening and actively locking in with everybody else.
We are collectively creating something bigger than the individual.
I often have an out-of-body experience in those moments, where I am almost watching myself play and wondering how I am physically doing it.
You start playing tunes better than you thought you could.
It takes you to another level.
It becomes bigger than the individual.
You feel part of a collective consciousness with a single purpose.
There is giddiness and joy in that.
There is almost an embarrassing intimacy in it because it feels as close as a group can get.
Those are peak experiences.
They do not happen often, so you have to recognise them and savour them.
When attention turns inward
Tara:
What kills that magic?
Michael Eskin:
When the attention reverses.
When someone is not listening.
When they are focused on their own playing, their own way, their rhythm or intonation, and there is no possibility of that focus turning outward.
Then the set becomes an exercise in frustration.
We are not going to come together because one or two people are not listening.
Ego also kills it.
If someone comes in trying to show off or entertain the patrons, that does not work in our session.
If you want to do that, start a band.
That is not what we are doing.
The issue is whether their energy is on what they are getting rather than what they are giving.
I also find it hard when people play tunes they clearly do not know and keep playing them.
It is fine not to play.
But if someone continues doing that, especially beside me, it drives me mad.
Becoming the kind of musician others want to share a session with
Tara:
I have been thinking about how to be a better person in a session.
I am trying to help people become the kind of musician others want to share a session with, and who enriches every session they enter.
It is all about sharing the music.
It is a team sport.
It is not a solo thing.
This project is really about becoming a musician who others want to share a session with.
It is generosity too.
Be generous to other people.
Tara:
We have a question in the chat.
Are there any sessions in the Starry Plough in Oakland, California?
Michael Eskin:
The Starry Plough is in Berkeley, and it has an amazing set of sessions every Sunday.
They start around five in the afternoon, I think.
They have three levels.
There is a kids’ session, then an open all-level session that tends to be more for newer and intermediate players, and then later it becomes an advanced hosted session.
That later one can go to two in the morning.
There is also the Plough and Stars on Clement Street in San Francisco, and another session at Sláinte in Oakland.
It is possible to do three sessions on a Sunday in the Bay Area.
You can go to the Plough and Stars, then Sláinte, then the Starry Plough and play until all hours.
Guitar players and winging it
Tara:
Someone says they appreciate the comments about guitar players thinking they can wing it and figure out the chords on the spot, but that does not always work.
Michael Eskin:
I have met Berkeley-educated jazz players who did not play Irish music, came in, heard it, and could play it.
I was blown away.
But they could hear it.
That is the difference.
Tara:
If they can hear it, they can play it.
But some people do not listen.
Michael Walsh:
They might be highly skilled in another genre.
Someone once used the phrase “a triumph of technical barbarity” about a flute player who could do everything, but it sounded awful.
Starting a teaching session
Tara:
Another question asks for recommendations on starting a teaching session.
The host says they often find themselves playing the melody alone because there is not much initiative to learn the tunes outside the session.
They have tried assigning tunes as homework, but very few people do it.
Michael Eskin:
We do something like that.
At the House of Ireland, the first part is a slow teaching session. They have a collection of more than a hundred tunes and play slowly from that.
We also do separate tune teaching.
One thing I have found is that if you want to bring more repertoire into an existing session, set your expectations very low about how fast a new tune will be adopted.
It can take months or a year for a tune to become part of the scene.
Give people recordings, ABCs, PDFs, YouTube links, slowed-down versions, anything that helps them practise at home.
Do not expect people to learn more than about one tune a month.
Make the tools available.
Tara:
Michael Walsh, your Whistles Club is a bit like a teaching session.
Michael Walsh:
It is probably a lower-tech version of what Michael described.
I teach by ear, the way my teacher taught me.
If people want the dots afterwards, they can go and find them.
One person writes things down as numbers, and that works for him.
I turn the lesson into a session.
We sit there with Tayto and a Club Orange. I record the tune for everyone: a fancy version, a slow version, and phrase by phrase.
Then we learn it phrase by phrase.
The problem with taking things away is that people often forget, even with the recording, because they get anxious about learning on their own.
If you are doing it with them, you can reassure them.
You make mistakes, and it is fine.
Before we broke up for summer, we just played. We did not do any learning.
Some people knew half the tunes, and we had a lovely communal music-making experience.
It does not have to be high-tech.
It can be very simple.
Repertoire workshops and slow sessions
Mimi:
At the school, one of our most popular classes is the repertoire workshop.
People sign up for a semester.
Alex teaches that class, and he might do one tune a week.
It is taught phrase by phrase. People record it on their phones, and if they want to find the dots, they can.
It makes a difference.
People learn a lot of tunes from that.
Then they bring those tunes to lessons or to the session.
We also have someone in the community who runs a well-organised slow session in a public library.
He keeps a list of tunes and says, “This week we are going to play these tunes.”
It becomes a teaching resource because students come back to me saying, “At Dave’s session we are working on this tune, but I do not know it.”
Then we work on it, and they can go back.
You need someone organised and interested in coordinating.
People do respond.
Connecting lessons and sessions
Lori:
Because we are a smaller but vibrant community, when students come to the session, their teacher may be there on fiddle, flute, singing or whistle.
Even if their instructor is not the session leader that week, they may still be there.
There is reinforcement because the teacher knows what they have been working on and what they would probably like to play.
Michael Eskin:
That is a good point.
With newer players in my session, I have to keep track of who knows what.
I want to make sure everyone gets included.
I will deliberately start something someone knows, especially if they are nervous to start.
If you run a session and want to bring in new players, you have to know what they know and use that to encourage them.
Mimi:
In our BRIMS session, the first hour is considered the slow session.
We deliberately keep the pace slow and go round-robin.
A couple of years ago, many people would pack up after that hour, or maybe go to the bar and listen.
Now some of those people stay because they know the tunes.
A few stay the whole time because they can keep up and feel comfortable.
They are making progress.
Tara:
The person asking about the teaching session says there is not much initiative to learn tunes outside the session.
Maybe the motivation is not there yet.
Maybe something needs to spark the magic, like a concert, visiting musicians, or recordings that get them excited.
Mimi:
Yes, or recommending recordings that they might find exciting.
Michael Walsh:
And understand that everyone has different ways of learning.
The thought of going away and learning something on your own is a big thing.
We take for granted our knowledge of how to pull a tune together phrase by phrase.
Someone coming in fresh does not know that.
One thing people should understand about sessions
Tara:
One final question.
What is one piece of advice you would give people, or one thing you wish people understood more about Irish music sessions?
And what is your number one tune to learn?
Michael Walsh:
The first tune I teach is Paddy’s Return, which is Kitty Lie Over for a single.
It is a simple, generic jig without twists and turns, so people can pick it up.
My advice is: go and give it a go.
You will meet difficult people sometimes, but do not let that put you off.
You will find your tribe, and there are a lot of nice people around.
The extended family of Irish music
Michael Eskin:
This little tube with six holes has defined my life for the past thirty-plus years.
It has taken me all over the world.
I have played in places I never would have imagined: the mountains of Japan, all over the United States and Europe.
I do not have a big extended family, but I feel I have a family of people all over the world.
I can go anywhere, walk in, and feel like I am with family.
People do not always understand that if you do the work and are basically a nice person, a few tunes on this thing give you an entryway into an enormous extended family.
It is about far more than the tunes.
As for one tune, that is hard.
My favourite tune is Mayor Harrison’s Fedora.
I have told people that when I die, I want my ashes poured into the King’s River in the Sierras while that tune is played.
But for a first tune, something simple like Lucy Farr’s Barn Dance is delightful and stands alone.
Lori:
My advice is to listen.
Understand that listening is an active part of it.
I teach little children’s dance classes, and parents sometimes ask if their two or three-year-old can start Irish dance.
I tell them, “I will ruin this experience for your child.”
If they are putting on music and dancing around, that is exactly what they should be doing.
The same applies to music.
Immersing yourself and listening gets overlooked, especially when people are on fire and want to do the thing.
I know very few tune names, but The Torn Jacket by Connie O’Connell will always stop me.
Foster the love of the music
Mimi:
My advice is a combination of what Lori and Michael said: listening and community.
Try to foster love of the music through listening.
When you are on that path, you have a community around you that shares the same love.
There is a particular alchemy in having that connection with people who love the same thing.
You never feel lonely.
On the surface, when you look at a session, you may not see that.
But that deep connection is where it comes from.
For first tunes, I teach things like Hot Cross Buns or Pop Goes the Weasel, something already in people’s heads.
A favourite tune right now is The Flax in Bloom.
The future of the podcast
Tara:
I checked the stats today.
There are listeners in 92 countries, which is crazy.
There have been more than 260 questionnaire responses, each with five to ten questions, so I will never run out of questions.
There is the podcast club Michael set up, and the podcast is being used almost like curriculum by music schools.
I think of people learning their instrument and learning tunes like learning to drive.
What the podcast and Session Etiquette project are trying to do is show the key on the map, so people can decide for themselves what they want to do.
It is not about me, or us, telling people they should or should not do this or that.
It is about giving people clarity around the ambiguity, so they can make decisions for themselves.
I am turning SessionEtiquette.com into an educational hub for Irish traditional music sessions.
I know the term “session etiquette” can have negative connotations, so I have also got IrishMusicSessions.ie and IrishMusicSessions.com, which will forward to the Learn section.
I am also changing the podcast transcript pages so they are easier to read, because we sometimes talk a little fast in Ireland.
I want them to become more conversational transcripts.
Hopefully there will be more resources, maybe even live question-and-answer sessions.
How sessions evolve in different places
Tara:
What should the podcast or wider project do next?
Michael Walsh:
From my ethnomusicologist head, I would be interested in how sessions are evolving in different places.
I know my area here, and I also look at Asturias in northern Spain.
Irish music sessions had a big impact on the folk revival there after Franco, in the 1980s and 1990s.
Now the session culture is evolving.
People are starting to dance in sessions.
They are shifting away from Irish repertoire towards Asturian repertoire.
The sound is changing.
I would be interested to see how the Irish session is evolving in places like Korea, Japan or America.
Michael Eskin:
The podcast stands alone.
You are making something available that has not really been available.
One thing that might be useful is a directory of sessions.
The Session.org has this functionality, but session pages can become hard to read because comments and updates pile up.
You may find pages of updates before discovering that the venue is closed.
Something concise and searchable by city would be useful.
If I am going to Cleveland, where is the session in Cleveland?
Where is the session in Bogotá?
It seems like a natural thing.
Mimi:
A wild thought came to me.
Lori and I recently brought a group of students to Ireland.
It is interesting for people to experience differences between sessions in the United States and sessions in Ireland.
I wonder if there could be session pen pals.
One session communicates with another session somewhere else.
They share what they are playing and what they are doing.
Michael Eskin:
Like sister cities.
Mimi:
Exactly.
Michael Walsh:
That is not off-tangent.
The Irish government has a new diaspora strategy, and they are interested in diasporas connecting.
There might be something there.
Lori:
At BRIMS, everything is together: dance, music and singing.
When we have recitals or showcases, dancers dance to live music.
We do not compete. That is a conscious choice.
I wonder whether looking at dance within the wider session world might be useful, without watering down what you are doing.
Some people do dance at sessions.
Singing is well covered already.
Closing the live celebration
Tara:
Dancing is great.
I was a dancer before I was a musician. Not a very good one, but I loved it.
I cannot believe we have gone on so long.
Thank you so much: Michael Eskin, Michael Walsh, Lori Madden and Mimi Vidaver-Davis.
And thank you to the listeners and everyone who put in questions and tuned in from around the world.
It has been a pleasure.
I loved every minute.
Happy birthday to the podcast.
This first birthday episode shows that In Tune with Tradition has become more than a podcast about session etiquette.
It has become a shared language.
Teachers are using it with students. Session leaders are using it with newcomers. Music schools are using it to explain things that used to be left unsaid. Adult learners are using it to understand why sessions feel confusing, intimidating or magical.
That matters because session etiquette is not really about rules.
It is about orientation.
It is about knowing where you are, what kind of room you have walked into, what is already happening, and whether your presence will help the music, the people and the atmosphere.
The clearest theme running through this live conversation is listening.
Listen before joining.
Listen before backing.
Listen before deciding the session is unfriendly.
Listen before assuming you have been rejected.
Listen before deciding that your tune, your song, your rhythm or your need to participate is what the room needs next.
Another strong theme is belonging.
Belonging is real, but it is not instant. It is built through time, contribution, restraint, kindness, shared tunes, shared jokes, shared mistakes and showing up again.
That is why “find your tribe” matters.
Not every session will be your session.
Not every group will be your group.
Not every room will need what you bring that night.
That is not failure. It is part of the map.
This episode also shows how different session culture can be outside Ireland. In some places, there may be only one session within driving distance. The urgency is different. The venue challenges are different. The relationship between school, session, pub, teacher and learner is different. That does not make those sessions less real. It means the ecology around them is different.
The future of the project starts to come into focus here.
It is not just about correcting bad behaviour.
It is about helping people read the map.
It is about giving language to ambiguity.
It is about helping musicians become the kind of people others want to share a session with.
That may be the clearest birthday gift the podcast has given itself.
*Produced & recorded by Tara Connaghan and edited by Anita Alvarez Santos
*Intro music: Track 1: John Phadaí Chonchubhair’s jig - Derek McGinley & Tara Connaghan ‘Far Side of the Glen’ album (2011)
Celtic Back-Up for All Instruments by Chris Smith (book)
John Doyle Guitar on YouTube
Sheffield Folk Sessions Festival, UK
Dr. Michael Walsh
Michael Eskin
San Diego Comhaltas
Mimi Vidaver-Davis
Blue Ridge Irish Music School Virginia-based Irish music education
Plough and Stars pub
The Starry Plough pub
Slainte pub
TheSession.org - source of tunes, discussions, directory of sessions
TradRadar.ie - directory or sessions in Ireland
Shift.Irish - app to connect Irish people at home and abroad plus list of sessions / pubs
Session Etiquette Questionnaire
Support the In Tune with Tradition podcast
In tune with Tradition: The Private Session Experience
