Roy

My name is Roy. I'm from the Netherlands. I was born here. I'm also a second year student of IDE, and in my free time. I like to do sports.

Kieu

And I'm Kieu. Let's say I'm on my third year after the PhD and I'm doing research. In the past I've worked in the Medical Center of Groningen and I just moved to Enschede last year with my partner and then currently I'm working at home finishing my papers and publication from Groningen and looking for a new job.

Sebastiaan

And we also have another girl in the group who couldn't be with us today.

Michal

Yes, Ainara, from Spain, she's the one who sent most of the emails as well,  

Lets talk a bit more about the structure since we each have a separate role. So we have two people who are going to be taking notes, those will be mostly visual. That's Eliza and Sebastian. Then, I'm going to be doing most of the talking in some sense, where most of the asking questions. Obviously everyone else is welcome to chip in. But that's just the structure that we were a little bit told to do/ set. And Roys main job is being an observer. Also be able to look because since all of us have this  role, we might be missing something. So that's his main role is to catch that.

Roy

I see stuff.

Michal

While this is called an interview, but think about it more of a conversation. Where it's not gonna be me asking questions and you just replying and nothing else. We obviously have some questions. I will have some questions up on my laptop if you don't mind. That's more so just to look back every once in a while to make sure that we cover all of our bases for the later parts. But. Ideally, halfway through I can close the laptop and not.eed it one bit.

Kieu

OK.

Michal

So you mentioned that you before worked in Groningen again and in medical research, what did you do for your? Bachelor and masters wise.

Kieu

I did my bachelor in Vietnam for biotechnology and then I came here for the Master for Medical Science research and then after that. We have a chance to write a PhD proper. So for three years and then we defended that and whoever wanted and stayed for the PhD. So that's what I did. And so Fast forward, I finished it in 2019 with my PhD and in 2020 I started my postdoc there. So during the pandemics and then. It finished in November. OK, last year.

Michal

Yeah. Then should we call you a doctor or?

Kieu

No, no. I'm just a medical. Researcher so in my. PhD and postdoc. I did Human Genetics study and also immunology. 

Michal

That sounds very impressive.

Kieu

It's something totally different with engineering, so I have no clue what you guys is about to.

Michal

So we draw.

Kieu

It's really complicated though.

Michal

It’s a ittle bit of everything like we also had classes regarding biology a little bit, but it was more about bone structure and stuff like that.

Kieu

But do you focus more on mathematics or the physics or?

Michal

It's about everything equally. I'd say it's more physics, but more like production, not like pure pure physics. More production and equally also drawing design. I mean, just in general how to visualize stuff.

Kieu

And also art because right designing like related to art or architectures by design.

Michal

Yes we have.

Roy

Yeah, more product focused. So really use usable drawings that you can present to a customer to show what it's going to look like when it's a finished product. So it's really functional, folks, yeah.

Michal

During the code design session you will see a bit more of what that implies because that will literally be the goal of. It is to show you examples of potential products, very early ideas, and then you being able to have some sort of feedback on it. Yes. So then because we don't actually know for sure, but you kind of said it, you're from Vietnam. Yes. OK, where from? From Vietnam from?

Kieu

Ho Chi Minh? City in the South.

So it's quite also the big city. 10 million people. Over there or super crowded, crazy.

Michal

And then why did you move to Groningen for your master?

Kieu

Yeah, for study. So there we so Vietnam was is still a developing country. So that we have our investment and resources for tourism. For service kind of industry but not for kind of exam science and for pharmacy, for research, for kind of things, we're still doing like generic drugs. Example for things that people already have the pattern and expire and then all the procedure is clear. Then most of the factory they take that and then they produce drugs. So those are kind of to replace imported products. So it's helped people. But then we don't have fun for new research. So that was the situation. Ten years ago. And that's why I went to the Netherlands. I actually applied for scholarship to Europe. Yeah. And then I went here.

Michal

And then you also decided to stay after. Turning him here.

Kieu

Yeah. The thing is now it's still developing. So we still also don't have resources and yeah, sometime I'm also after the PhD and we're considering to come back. To that area. But then yeah, still we don't have the same kind of research that we do in collagen. And after being trained for so long. Now it's become kind of like a small niche and where you can actually work in the. By your knowledge, unless you want to, yeah, totally renew yourself and then apply. What you do to? A totally different subject to economic or something, yeah.

Michal

Yeah. So then because you moved? Ten years ago, yes, exactly 10 years. Or. Yeah, same as me. Then, yeah. To the Netherlands. Yeah. So 2013. And so obviously it was a while ago now, but how did you experience the? The change right because you moved to a different continents, different country, different language, different people, way taller people.

Kieu

The taller I do have opinion actually. So then ten years, there's a lot of gradual changes and then now if I look back then, I do see some major changes in myself. So let's say culturally, I become from a person who observes most of the time I become more talkative as well and exchange ideas with people. So I'm more open now than the past. And so then in Vietnam, we still have kind of Asian culture. So it's more confusion. So in the society there are strong hierarchy and then for that like at Kiss, we were told to be obey, obey to people so that we don't really challenge the people above. And after 10 years here I become. A little bit more. So I think. That I try to get the. The balance between two sides. And so on one side. I think I can apply the Asian culture of being more. Understanding and being able to listen to people. But from the western side I started to have more opinions and I can express this more.

Michal

Like there is a really well balance right like to some extent.

Kieu

But there's no things that indicate you this. Is a balance, right? Yeah.

Michal

Exactly, exactly like you. You have to figure it out yourself, which is sometimes easier, sometimes harder. Yeah. But then do you speak Dutch if you live here for 10 years or.

Kieu

For 10 years. But then University Medical Center, they only speak English like we work in English. And. Yeah, so then after I moved to Enschede, then I started to learn Dutch because then I started in the new city and then I need to. I have the need to really plan into with people. Then I started to learn. That like.

Michal

How's it going?

Kieu

It's going.

Michal

I mean, like, I also don't speak Dutch, despite living for 10 years, so it's not really a useful. I'm sorry, it's not really a useful language as in the Netherlands, to be honest. So.

Kieu

No, but it's good. No, but at some point after living here then. So then we have. I work in university, so we have a lot of colleagues and students who are all international. So in my department. Again, we have like 40-5 people that we always hang out and we have like 5 to 6 like those people and we all speak English because we that's our common language. But after we break that bubbles, then yeah, you drop into the new, you drop your pin into the neighborhood and then all the neighbors. And yeah, so you need to try to get into the.

Michal

Yeah, like adapt to a new environment, basically, yeah. Yeah. So then now we're gonna shift a little bit because you started like we heard off about moving here and everything. Can you tell us a little bit of how was your yesterday like?

Kieu

OK.

Michal

Specifically, yesterday, just yesterday, just like the main points, so to say.

Kieu

Yeah, working at home. Had the meeting with people and tried to catch up the project and figured out that all the resources you had in the past. Is no longer there. After you return your laptop and all of your account from university, then you have very limited access. So the dramatic change from what you used to to what you have now to come. Give you the same amount. Of job. So it's a little bit of frustrated.

Michal

Yeah, I love. I love the stuff that you had for free. It's gone now, unfortunately.

Kieu

Yeah. And so the feeling was a little bit of frustration because when you're working for free. And so then now it's from you need to put a lot of commitment and yeah, your own right to to have some discipline to finish that.

Michal

Yeah, especially if you work from home, right? If you're in an office then you have like a peer pressure of sort because everyone else is working, so you have to work as well. Or if you're in classes in our case like everyone else is working, I can't just be watching YouTube right now. I actually have to do this exercise, but at home it's completely different.

Kieu

It's really comfortable. And what else? Yeah. So then that's the change because then I need to finish project. So then that's the big change. And then the second part was looking for new job. So I still have a little bit of priority problem. Of how much effort I need to put to finish. What I just need to finish. If I want to, because now I don't have any. Kind of obligation to finish that. So it's not for my degree. So now it's just free time and will free will, let's say. And it has been lasting for so long. So yeah. Really testing your motivation with words and your interest there. And the second part a priority of finding a new job because then yeah, you need to find a new job and get out of that. Exactly. So then that's.

Michal

Let's keep going, yeah.

Kieu

Those cycle thing is falling back now every now and. Then yeah.

Michal

But you are fighting like some sort of like, are you using the same word again like balance to an extent, right?

Kieu

Strive for that and I think like this week I really focus on that. So then at the beginning of the week, I shift the intention of, OK, this week, let's just like invest five days on that. So then this week, I actually did three out of five, so it's OK.

Michal

It's more than half, yeah.

Kieu

This one and half, but it's not that five days.

Michal

Baby steps. You know that's going to be 4 then, then five, and then maybe 6. And then what do you do in your free time then? Or do you considering you do the project? And do you even have a lot? Of free time.

Kieu

Now the the free time. Becomes difficult because you don't have the kind of job that be fine for you. So then most of the time I'm at home then. I can be free then. But then for free for now I try. To do the. So then say 5:50 is my working from those two projects my. Job and fight finishing project. And then the rest then. I do sport. And then I do bouldering bouldering? Yeah, it's indoor climbing.

Michal

Bouldering. That's yeah, that really brings your forearms.

Kieu

But then you don't.

Michal

And you said cooking and.

Kieu

Yeah, cooking. And then that's basically the whole thing, right?

Michal

Yeah, yeah, that one.

Kieu

You spend. Like 3 hours for sport and then cooking for around like 2 hours because I cook every day. Then yeah, basically PM today.

Sebastian

What do you like to cook? Like? What kind of cuisine?

Kieu

My partner is Italian and Vietnamese, so then we interchange it. So in the week then I cook Vietnamese or kind of like Asian dish that I learn if you see Instagram, people have a lot of new recipe and fasting. Right. So I try to do that and in the weekend then he cooked. Then it's Italian cuisine.

Michal

Have you ever considered combining them like make an Italian Vietnamese fusion or something like that?

Kieu

We we did try sometimes, but then we have and then since we like to host people as well, so. And we like to cook and then invite people to eat. But then friends have a lot of restriction on the diet. So yeah. So then we try to plan what recipe we have from Vietnam, what recipe we have from Italy, how can we combine them on one table and meet all the diet thing that people have.

Sebastian

So like.

Michal

Sounds like so much planning just to cook.

Kieu

So then normally that's needed for the. Weekend because then you.

Michal

Have time. Yeah. Then you have a lot more free. Time as well, yeah. Like you moved out after university, but what do you like still, miss from Vietnam? That's not here. Or a lot less so here.

Kieu

I think. The convenience that you have. In the society. So. So then let's say here even without resort, you can order food you still need. To wait a lot. Of time and if you need to send a package, you still need to go out and then send it. So then there is super convenient in the terms that you can just at home you order something and then 15 minutes later. Justin Bieber to you, so very fast supply chain and even with delivering package, people can just pass by, take the package and deliver immediately to the second place. So there's a lot of apps now for those kind of like small little service there. So that's convenience. Second one is the weather. It's nice and warm so that people go outside more often.

Michal

Yeah, the weather.

Kieu

And life doesn't stop after, let's say, after six people start to leave work and then live starting. So then people start to go out. So the stream is super busy, so crowded, all the food, everything is on the, on the on the street until midnight. So after six.

Michal

That sounds fun.

Kieu

Yeah. So then? A lot of. People, they work really hard. But then after that, do they just go out and then you kind of like regain your social life kind of. So then you don't really get ripped into the world things in yourself anymore.

Michal

Yeah, like you're a lot less alone, I assume. Yeah. Which which here. It's like, I feel like, especially next to the the social, like nightlife especially is. Lacking, for lack of better words or. Like comparing to exactly like when you go it was kind of similar in Poland especially or when I was even Mastiff it was just a lot more people were going outside doing stuff till like 8:00 or 9:00 PM. Obviously we weren't children back then, so we couldn't really. Save the midnight, but it was still very different than here. It's just. You know, go to uni, go back to uni, go to uni, probably again, go back.

Kieu

Do you agree?

Roy

Yeah. No, it's. Well, I'm from a really small town. So for me, and today feels pretty busy already. But that's my perspective because I think for you, it's all the way around, right? But yeah, I can find what he's saying. It's it's true, it's. And today it's not really a very blooming. City in that way. But I don't think the Dutch culture is that much of A every night, everyone goes outside. Everyone is just when they're. Finish from work. They go home and they stay at home and they just chill on their own or with their partner, which might be a very big contrast to what you are used to or what? You are used to.

Kieu

Yeah, but then on the other side, then you have more kind of you have more time with your family and then people inside and not too much with the surroundings.

Michal

Yeah, it's like it's like quality over quantity to an extent where it's like on one side it's just a lot of everything. And on the other side, it's a lot less, but you're with people who at least hopefully matter to you.

Roy

I think that's that's that's the.

Kieu

How is it in Cyprus?

Sebastian

We basically go out for coffee every day, so kind of like this situation every, every morning.

Kieu

Every evening? Yeah.

Sebastian

Or evening or. Just like the. Other countries say let's go out for a drink. We. Say, let's go out for a coffee.

Kieu

Yeah, we do the same like so for coffee or bubble tea. But and then like people from companies, when they go for. Beers and stuff. And in Russia, I think it's cold.

Eliza

It's OK, it's. Cold only like in winter. It's not cold in in summer. It's a nice thing about like nightlife and well, I grew up in Moscow, so it's like very big city and I don't know after like a time.

Speaker

OK.

Eliza

Like not used to, but there's like no. Stop. No. Why don't you stop? You just, like, go with everywhere just to go out after school to some classes and then to like you want to have a time like with the friends and it's. It never stops here. You can just can settle. You can just breathe. I think so. For me, it's more like I feel like you're more than it was. Yeah.

Kieu

So I used to be from the small town and then my city itself is like a lot for me. So every now and then I would appreciate kind of like a day just being there and no one called you to get. Out and then you have no society kind. Of like things that you need to offend. But every now and then. Missed that because.

Michal

Do you often go visit back?

Kieu

Yeah. So then before the pandemic, then I think I went there like almost every summer once a. Year and then COVID, I didn't come back for three years and then last year came back.

Michal

To go back after after COVID for everything, it's it's. It's funny how that's still, like, almost daily conversation topic, even though it happened exactly.

Kieu

But it feels like so long ago, right? But it's just like.

Michal

Like, that's exactly why.

Roy

Yeah, two years I've been fully free now.

Michal

It like properly ended at the end of 2021, so it's already been two full or yeah, two full years and we're going on a third one, yeah. And yet it's still effects so much.

Kieu

Yeah, but it's also changed. A lot like the way you work. As well. And then companies are also more open for kind of flexible. And hybrid working models. So then it's actually changed the way people work.

Michal

Yeah, I mean for the better too. Like I feel like a lot the life balance is a lot more as well because companies know exactly, they realize that people can't just work 20 or 40 hours a week. And now people realize they can actually have a normal life alongside their work.

Kieu

But then yeah, it really depends. Your kind of job that you're doing right and then how much you can actually gain balance on that because for research you so you have a contract of? 36 for 40. Hours, but you cannot say that. OK, in three hours, I will. I will investigate this problem because you need to read a lot. And then sometimes depends on what is there. How interesting is that? You just keep digging and then you end up in? I don't know, rabbit.

Michal

Hole for a day. It's like it's it's hard to say what. What the time actually means?

Kieu

Exactly. And then when you generate that ideas, then it's cool, but then it's like. A lot of. Effort at the beginning.

Michal

Yeah, it's like it's like same the same for us, but because every module we have also every quarter we have a project. And usually the projects are a third of the total workload of that quarter or even half, I think next quarter like this one is approximately half next quarter is gonna be 2/3. But and like the points because it's the ECT it's it's it's our base right? Like one point is I think 26 hours per quarter or. Something like that. But it's hard to really like, say, whether you're actually working on on something for 25 hours or 50 or 100. So sometimes you might do a lot more, sometimes you might do a lot less.

Kieu

From your effort.

Michal

And it's it's just kind of a weird way to look at it time based versus actually. What you're supposed to achieve?

Kieu

Yeah. And then is that problem is not only study, but also like for work management and company management, there's a lot of problem related to that, right? How do you assess people performance? How do you assess the quality of the project project based on time or based on ideas and products?

Sebastian

Yeah, exactly.

Michal

No, but like that also kind of goes back to the project that you said you were working on, right? Like did you have a set amount of hours that you were supposed or expected to work on? Or did you like go back, did you? Go over it under it.

Kieu

So in the so then we work in research. So when once you started doing the PhD and the postdoc, it's difficult to reach the life balance because so you have 36 hour contract but the. You also want to have like race fightings, right? So it's your own increase in motivation as well. So then most people they also go to the lot in the weekend because you have experiment going on. So then at the end it just becomes kind of like riding. The the the wheels are keep rolling and it's difficult for academic people to study to stop the wheel and say OK, so at 6:00 on Friday at 4:00 PM, I stop. Like it doesn't work like that. So then it's order management and other people say, OK, you can try to design things. On that but. It's impossible to do that experiment for that. Or experiment, not experiment for your. Yeah, exactly. And it always take longer than what you do. You plan, although you although most of the time I plan for like. Time, right?

Michal

You can't expect you can't print if you can predict what happens, then what's the point of? The experiment right?

Kieu

Five hours. OK, OK. Five hours. I plan, then for sure. It's gonna take seven hours, and then the longer you at the time estimation in is to keep longer than that. You're like, wow.

Eliza

So every time like you have like 5 hours, you like dedication to the work and then you just like, OK this time. Never this time. Haven't worked 5. Hours. Your next time. You OK? Seven hours. And then like 9 hours.

Kieu

It just keeps like just keeps going somehow like that. So I thought that I would have like kind of adaptive learning in designing like experiment right and then the more you do, the more you get used to with the procedure. And then of course you can save.

Eliza

Good, good, good. OK, OK, OK.

Kieu

That but things just happen. In the long process and.

Michal

Because, like, that's probably true. But you'll also get more and more complex experiments to do so.

Kieu

Self hours yeah, but also the the because like in academia then most of the time everyone have their own projects. So then you don't have a second hand to ask in case things happen and you cannot control that because you share equipment. You share lock bands. So if you say OK, I put this one for 30 minutes and 30 minutes, I come back. 30 minute you come back and someone is always there so that. OK, then I wait another 15 minutes or 30. Yeah. So then? Is not strictly managed in the kind of. Like in in. An organizational wise kind of perspective. So you cannot really control for the equipment and stuff and sometimes you can just book everything in advance and then things just happen like machine broke, those kind of things. And in a good day. When things happen quickly, then you're happy.

Michal

So how do you? Because now that you've been for another day for a year, right? Then how do you compare that to Groningen? Because they're roughly the same size wise or population wise, which I've only been there once, which really surprised me.

Kieu

Are you going for party?

Michal

No, I just, I I I have a friend there. So I just want to see him, but it really like, it feels a lot smaller.

Kieu

So I see calling in because I spent 10 years there, so I know the in and out. Activities and everything so I can easily spread my own my whole day with activities and here in ends today I'm new so it looks really rough for me and it doesn't have the same. I don't know, cheerful, energetic student like in cooling center. If you walk by you can see that just. People are just like so cry. So happy. I don't know why what they do, but they they look happy. And now in the city center here yesterday it feels.

Michal

We do engineering here. That's why we're sad.

Kieu

Rough and yeah, at the end, poor high. If you get to know them. But then the the access is not. That easy. And then in and there most of the people are. It's also a little city and they focus a lot on psychology on it's not engineer school. I think people is also more easy going outside.

Michal

Yeah, like the the type of people who go. To those courses. Because like, we also have psychology here, they're very different than, for example, computer science students who are mechanical engineering students. I feel like ID like we as industrial design, we're a bit in between 10:00 because like between like a psychology student and a.

Kieu

Right in between of what?

Michal

For example, mechanical engineering student because. I've I feel like a lot of them are very they're closed off, but they open fast and once they're open, they're very like extrovert and stuff. Yeah. So it's like kind of in between cause ecology, see. And so probably they'll tell you what their mental problems are. 15 minutes. Into knowing them. And Mechanical Engineers, you can know them for half a year and. Not even know their name so.

Kieu

That's like sad.

Michal

Like, I mean those are the extremes. That's like the. So I feel like we as of course are a bit more in between and. Also as the. Apparently people.

Kieu

How you feels about you. Yeah, it's a close.

Roy

Yeah, I just. I moved here two months ago. So I'm still trying to figure out how everything works. Yeah, but I think, yeah. It's it's 20. It's the region of the Netherlands and they're known for being very conventional, conventional. The right words were very on their own. And why it's quite sober in a sense. So I can feel that in actually fairly well that people are quite on their own, have very their own group. But I feel like if they get to know them and you try to just fit in, it is very easy to do that here. Way easier than in the region that might actually come from.

Kieu

Where did you come from?

Roy

I come from a little bit more to West, but not in the not. Not like Amsterdam or something like 50 kilometers to West and it's only farms there. It's really big open fields and people are. Just. Well, maybe it's because of the distance between the houses, which is it's not like here. Like you can't see your neighbors sometimes, so you're really isolated.

Kieu

So you live in a mansion.

Roy

Kinda. Yeah. You're you're. You're really close off from each other. And and next day, I feel like it's a bit more. Open so for. Me. So for me it feels more social than what art come from, but I can. Yeah, that's just said. Maybe for other perspectives, it's actually the other way around. But I so I think you I will leave here for a. Longer time than me. And did you experience it the same?

Sebastian

I mean, for me it was kind of a big change because I'm used to 40° and sunlight outside, so the weather for her was an unpleasant surprise and my hometown is like a similar size and population trends, but somehow feels a bit more. I'm gonna say a bad word, but it feels a bit dull because it's so organized in a way and people don't go out of their homes and there's this organization kind of makes it a bit dull and a bit uneventful somehow.

Kieu

But even as a student, don't you have like student association or something then? There should be more activity.

Sebastian

Even that kind. Of feels a bit more calm and structured.

Kieu

Sure. Go with the flow.

Sebastian

Yeah, while I'm more used to kind of. Chaos. Yeah. Chaos.

Michal

The association is they're really targets, certain types. Of people I feel like. Just in general.

Eliza

I was really get used to this weather because like and humidity because so I don't know. It feels like here is a. Different climate and what we could use to that. I had, like, really bad sick. But then after time I can see like here like sometimes it really when I'm going to holiday school because there's like I can be on my own. Yeah. And I don't know about, like, I didn't really the. Other part of the. Powder is like the culture and everything but.

Speaker 6

OK.

Eliza

Apart from that. Really nice. Like, have friends I have. Connections places some coffee where I like it like.

Kieu

I hope that one day we get to that point next day because I do feel at home and every time I came back to Vietnam to feel overwhelmed. Then I came back. And then OK, now I have my space to breathe and this is my place. And you have network. Means everything to to do.

Michal

Yeah, like there is definitely. It's what you also mentioned like there is. Both space to like be yourself and to be with the people who you like, care about. And those are the time to certain extent because. You can get on. A bike here almost everywhere. Which? You said that the town you're from has is the population of 10 million. So I'm going to assume that you need at least a motorbike of, not. A car to really get around.

Kieu

A motorbike and then you spend like 45. At least outside in the traffic.

Sebastian

Yeah, like, like cars are really expensive in Vietnam.

Kieu

It's a. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100% import tax. Geez, because so I don't know why, but then I think they tried to protect the internal economy and make.

Roy

Why is this?

Kieu

Phase for internal development as well. So then in the past. Actually not in the past, but from forever. Then everything that you imported from foreign country, then you pay a really high tax. And I think from 2000 then we start to enjoy the not World Health Organization, the other one, the one for economy, World Economy Group or something.

Michal

The the economic bloc, yeah.

Kieu

And economic block like in the world. And then you have we have like open up packs and then there's some kind of trading that is allowed because it's, well, kind of regulated. So then for those things we have reduced parts but then for accessory.

Sebastian

OK.

Kieu

It's still 100%. So all the stuff, all the cards, everything. Yeah.

Michal

But also. People comparatively to the Netherlands also earn less in. I I'm pretty sure so it must be really expensive, also proportionately to the income. So no wonder everybody has motorbikes there.

Kieu

Have so scooters started to be like. I think from. Before 1975, so we got like 100 years of French colonization until. Until 194554 and after that we have American war. And then during that time then we have a lot of like things from America arrived to the South until 75. So then at that time before 75 then we have cars. It's just like a typical colonial. City, where you reached the right car and then the old, the poor people and then after 75, then we have the new government, the social government community. Government. And then after that, then they started to kind of like rebuild the economy and then things that become really convenient for people to go to work and everything is. Good. And we have a lot of Japanese food, Chinese food. That's funny to get into the market and then from 75 to 2000, it's like boom, everyone have like. At least a scooter, everyone. Have a scooter for themselves, let's say. So the city is packed.

Michal

Must be crazy, like on the roads.

Kieu

And then only the rich people like at that time. So after the transition of the government from 75 to 2000. So if you are lucky that you still have all the economy status, that kind of preserved during the change in the form of the government, then they become extremely rich, they have lands and stuff and then you can exchange that for. Three stuff and then get it. Can't afford that? But then, after 2000, then Vietnam Vietnam opened for the world economy. And then we have. More of medium class people as well. So the now all the medium people also started to have cards.

Michal

100% tax is just crazy though Its still in the back of my head, that's. Still just 100.

Kieu

Percent 100%.

Michal

That's double.

Kieu

Exactly. And we don't do a lot of like credit payment. Everyone just go there with a with cash.

Michal

So there's like really no bank.

Kieu

So we have bank, but so then kind of like for kind of interpersonal trading, normally we don't go to the bank even for housing, we can just go there buy. Directly with with.

Sebastian

With cash.

Kieu

Only when and then the mortgage just become kind of recently. Popular for million people, for young generation who want to buy houses as well. Then they started to go to the bank, but before that for kind of. They're not company wise. Transaction is on cash.

Roy

I couldn't imagine buying a house in cash, right?

Michal

It's like a dream for most people.

Kieu

Basically up there opened it. We do that about housing.

Michal

Just just like a bucket of pennies or something.

Roy

Yeah, you can count if you want. Well, there, trust me.

Eliza

And then one when you left.

Michal

No house for you. Swearing. But to get back a little bit to yes.

Sebastian

One second, I want to ask something. And like when you go to the summer, you still use your scooter, right? Do you feel like for example? A couple of weeks I tried to ride my first scooter for my first time and like I was afraid at first. Do you feel? And this was in the Netherlands, where there's kind of like an organizational structure to the? Good policy in terms of writing as good during poaching in city, do you feel any? Fear or danger? When?

Kieu

No, it feels more. Freedom, because you can do whatever. You put in the street. So then if you just check on you to apply how the roundabout or traffic in Ho Chi Minh looks like. Like most people said, you don't have land on the street like what is like who go first, who go second. We do have rules, but it's just that scooter sneak in all kind of like empty space that we can find. So as a car, you just imagine that yourself is a I don't know, a big shark in the ocean and then you just go slowly and all the. More fish just following you. And if you go out of the pattern, you're gonna crash because, yeah, they cannot expect that. They don't expect that.

Michal

We're always don't die.

Sebastian

Do you feel any limitations while using a scooter?

Kieu

No, I like it. I. Like it because the weather is. Right. So then you have fresh air, you ride, you feel the wind, you feel the sun and. It's only for long distance that you feel a little bit discomfort comparing with car, but then in short distance, I mean it's like up to two hours of traveling. It feels totally cool. Yeah, you need to get used to it. Like, don't be over polite when you get back. Because like, sometimes I just stop there and my. Mom was like, why you? Stop. I wouldn't go first. Like no. It's actually fun. I just freak out when I sit on the back when someone carries. Because I was like, whoa, everyone just keep arriving and you don't have control. Like when you write, you look ahead and when you sit on the bike then you have to look around and that's it. No, no.

Roy

In the Netherlands, have you learned to bike to to ride a bike here? Or do you still go by scooter everywhere?

Kieu

No, I. Right, right. So when I came to the Netherlands, then I I got a bike and since I know how to ride them. When it when it was needle so. I just keep biking.

Roy

And how did you? How did you experience the traffic here on the bike, especially in yesterday?

Kieu

It's I don't like the four direction kind of traffic light for the bike because they do have like single direction or at least two right. And then here it's green, everyone goes. And it feels. Like in Ho Chi Minh City, because like all the bike and all the scooter, you get hurt and then you look at each other and you go. Yeah. So I do like it in a nice day, but when it's too windy and.

Sebastian

I kind of like that.

Kieu

It's rainy and. I need to start it again.

Roy

That is very fair, yeah.

Kieu

But biking is very nice.

Eliza

To buy like. Maybe later the scooter or you just. Sorry, are you considering to buy a scooter later? Here or you just to.

Kieu

No, just like electric bike at some point because I just tried one and it was cool.

Michal

Yeah, it feels so nice.

Kieu

Like you when? You skiing down here, you just like. Go. Yeah, the same thing with the. Scooter, like so much speed and freedom.

Michal

And then you just like bike past the other people and you're just like ham, faster than you and mostly putting in less effort than you see somebody like biking or really trying and you just go. Next to them.

Kieu

Just remember that you will. Be there at one point.

Michal

Oh, no, that's fine. That's fine. Yeah, as long as it's. The more that you overtake than the get overtake it, but then it's fine, right? You don't need balance in that. But then would would you wish to go back to Vietnam more often or like just once a year is enough? For you.

Eliza

And for patience.

Kieu

So I think there's one thing I want to do is to. You know, contribute back to education or through the research, the science that we have over there with what I have. I have learned here and then during the last one year of like real orientation or really invent myself then I. Was thinking of. Taking job in kind of like big pragmas, and then you can just transfer what you have here to the other side and being like between different, I don't know, science. Domain or teaching? So then those things. So for shopping. But in terms of likewise, no. I would like to contribute back.

Michal

So it's like it's not your plan to stay in the Netherlands. Whole life or? Like you're not planning to. For lack of better word by here.

Kieu

I so then. So my partner is Italian and. So we started to see if because we both kind of like walk people walking inside and in research, so we wanted and then we found the Netherlands as a really great environment. For us to work. To contribute and then where we find the kind of like the meanings of what you was educated for, right? And you can contribute back making things. So then here you applied the best opportunities and. And then so then now for the next like 10 years or something, we wanted to see if we can actually blend it into the Dutch culture and become not an expert anymore, but kind of like you can understand things in the TV. You can talk nice normally to your neighbor. Yeah. And you can just live like a normal person.

Michal

What do you think will be the. Hardest part of that. Of getting. I think the word is assimilated. Into the culture.

Kieu

I think it's the commitment to one place because we have been traveling surrounding and every time we did the road trip from here to Italy, you pass by so many like beautiful mountains, beautiful places and you was like, why do we stay in the Netherlands with that kind of depressing weather? And so that. Those kind of things. Yeah, you've seen a lot and at some point it gives different. It makes it difficult to give priority and to decide and really push you through that. So then now let's say in our integration journey, if we have like some obstacle of not finding a job for one or two years, most of the people if you. About to that place. You're gonna just stay there and try to find something, and then in one or two years you find something else. But for us, being moving, able, able to move around and moving is the first ideas. Jump into your head. Then of course, you're gonna move and you're not gonna stay. So I think that's gonna become. Something that will bucking us.

Eliza

So yeah, I had this like question for a while and just. Maybe it's out of the blue. Find difficult to get. Out of the comfort zone or you find it easy or how you feel about it.

Kieu

So so it needs some. So I'm kind of like it, let's say, depends on like. How big is the compressor? Like how how much contract it is to your to your comfort kind of zone? If it's like totally go against the the core values like values like being I don't know being synthetic and not authentic and then just laugh and smile to people. I think I can pretend for a few hours, but after that I'm done. So then to break into that comfort, to do that things. Would be difficult. But if it's something related to, let's try something new. Let's jealous, like why we think it this way and not that way that could actually also be cool. Then I would like to try.

Eliza

So just to clarify, for the research and the job, you just really easy to open for new things where like socially you are more like if you if you're against like conversation or you don't like if you want to sleep like you can just pull for one hour.

Kieu

But then for for social also, if it's just like something. I just like to why not going out to dance the kind of dance that you need? Do like I don't know pole dancer, those kind of stuff. But like OK, it's funny. Something if you knew then I would try.

Eliza

So any activity that's new, you just go with them?

Kieu

Yeah, but then for things that also like for networking as well, a lot of people need to, I don't know, just to be there and then talk along with people and they feel super weird. Doing that because if you don't have anything to tell to people, why do you just like standing there and type there and saying nothing? I don't have the initiative for myself. Right. And dapping for me is difficult and I want to break that. But yeah, not not there yet.

Michal

I feel like. We have a lot of information. I don't know if you guys have any, huh? Yeah.

Sebastian

One piece is missing one small thing. I know it's a trap to ask a woman this, but I'm gonna go. Anyway for this?

Kieu

OK.

Sebastian

Would you mind telling us you're right because.

Kieu

I don't think my what?

Sebastian

Your age.

Kieu

My age? Yeah, 33. Wait, 34 final answer.

Roy

Goes fast, right? Yeah.

Michal

Was your birthday recently or 

Kieu

yeah.

Michal

 OK. Because it's always like. That when you're like, wait, man, I'm not. I'm that old now. This is a little bit cheating for on our side. But they never told us. Not that we cannot do it. I want to ask. You if you. Our goal is to design something for you. Do you have anything in mind that you might want potentially or? A certain problem to fix or something along those lines now to like just the the only restriction that we have is like it cannot be purely software, it can be a combination of. Or something physical, but cannot be just an app on. Your phone.

Kieu

But like something easy for what you mean. With physical like you can't touch it.

Michal

Yeah, it it needs to be an object that you can. Yeah, well, touch.

Roy

Maybe, maybe. Yeah. Maybe ask it a bit different. Like, why did you sign up to participate in the project?

Kieu

And of course, Francessca contacted me and I was like, OK, and.

Roy

So there was nothing specific that you thought you could get out of it.

Kieu

No, I didn't really think of that that much, yeah.

Sebastian

So no expectations basically.

Kieu

But I would think about that maybe next time.

Michal

It's good for us. Good for us.

Kieu

Yeah. Then maybe next time we can talk. About that. That's great. Thank you.

Michal

Yeah, I mean you can also send us a message like we have your phone number now we we made a group chat so. Most of us will be at on our phone at some. Point in the day so.

Sebastian

So yeah, if anything comes to mind, of course, don't hesitate to like bring. Yeah.

Kieu

Like you don't have caravan categories of what could be asked. I don't know because everything feels like. Big and broad.

Michal

Our our only requirement is physical. It has to be something that is physical. It cannot be. Actually, that's not even it. Our only requirement is that it cannot be an app on your phone.

Sebastian

We probably we're gonna be able to. Get an idea from what we saw in this interview, but the path that we can do anything we.

Michal

It's more just like to see what you might if you have anything specific in mind or anything than. Our job is to figure it out, but if you tell us, then we figure it out, right? Because it's a result of the interview.

Roy

I think we've got to. Level up using usable information.

Michal

Yeah, I I think we definitely have enough to work with later, so.

Kieu

So now you know my life story. You can see. OK. So I see that you have the big hole here. Let's work on this.

Speaker

Yeah, yeah.

Kieu

Yes, really excited to see what's come out actually.

Michal

Yeah, I think the the stage for, if I just look up the schedule, the stage for the code design which I mentioned previously. I think we can also get other feedback later on as well. That's that's not problem, but I think the code design is then meant to be the next date when we're supposed to meet you. That is somewhere around the end of March, no mid March where so in just a few weeks basically where we will then have some designs or ideas and then you will be able to give us feedback and. From my understanding, the kick off or like the introduction to everything was early in the morning and I was really sleepy so I. Didn't fully understand that but. From my understanding, it's meant to be that. We kind of do that design together like as a group with you. So you are like we are the ones obviously doing it, but you are. The kind of telling us. What to do to an extent? Because again, the the final product is meant to be for you. I don't think we actually will build the final product. But we will have like a final idea and.

Kieu

3D models.

Michal

Basic. Yeah. And like a physical a a physical model as well. Like, that's that's one of the things.

Sebastian

Like the whole philosophy, as Francesca explained it is that. Yeah, you're going to end up using sort of the product that we are going to. Design is supposed to be used by you, but you are not the user. You are the participant of the whole process in a way.

Roy

You're part of our design team as necessary to get the session.

Kieu

Thank you. Thank you. I don't have.

Roy

No, you don't have to draw anything because you don't. Session is purely we will work the coming weeks, we're going to work on generating ideas for you and then we show them to you. You can give us feedback and then at that meeting we already.