以下采访笔记由马颖慧和欧托斯整理
The following content was transcribed by Clare and Thomas
采访者：谢谢沈蓓老师您来这里跟我们一起采访。所以我们的题目就是历史。所以我们特别想要知道，在您生活中，中国发生了很多很重大的历史事件。所以我们想知道您的生活和你的艺术是怎么被影响的。所以我们首先要问的问题就是您的女儿说参加上海歌剧院时您才十四岁，对我们来说这特别年轻，所以我们要问，在这个特殊的环境长大，您自己有什么感觉？您觉得比普通的童年有什么不一样？
Interviewer: Thank you, Mrs. Shen Pei, for joining us today for the interview. Our topic is history, and we are eager to learn about the impact of major events in China on your life and your art. We would like to begin by discussing your early experiences. According to your daughter, you joined the Shanghai Opera at the age of 14, which we consider quite young. Could you please share your thoughts on growing up in such an unconventional environment and how it differed from the experiences of other children?
沈蓓：我的一生跟整个中国的大环境是非常密切，分不开的。人是在一个社会的大环境里面，所以你们从历史切入非常正确。大家知道我是一个舞蹈编导, 搞了一辈子。我已经87岁，做了七十多年了。但是记者问我的时候，说 “你是不是从小就喜欢舞蹈啊？从小就立志做一个舞蹈家！“ 完全不是。因为在我小的时候，你们要知道历史的话，要从我小时候研究。
我是1936年生的。日本人发动卢沟桥事变是1937年。卢沟桥事变，你们知不知道这个历史。所以你们需要知道中国历史，很重要就是日本打进来了，而且我生在南京。在我离开两个月以后，就发生了震惊世界的南京大屠杀， 两个月以后就发生了。我是一个survivor，一个幸存者逃出来的。因为这个大背景下面，中国人根本谈不到什么舞蹈，什么都没有了，我们的生活就是日本人要把我们的中国吃掉。我们要么反抗，要么做奴隶，就是这样的生活。
所以，你刚才问我的，十四岁我会跳舞，是因为中国发生了天翻地覆的大变化。那个时候中国，就是现在的新中国成立了。新中国成立的时候，因为我们中国人前面经历了那么多的战争苦难。如果有兴趣，我可以详细跟你们说，大概现在有这种经历的人不多了。我亲身经历逃难，日本人的飞机就在我头上扫射，很多很多的事情。所以呢，当终于新中国成立的时候，我们都非常非常，包括我的母亲，都非常非常的开心。想要庆祝，迎接新的中国的诞生。
在这个之前根本没有什么舞蹈这种享受。新中国诞生时，大家为了要表达心里的这种愉快，就开始有一个叫做秧歌运动。秧歌是民间老百姓中世代流传的舞蹈。你们现在有的时候可以看到，身上绑了红的绸带，大步的跳跃扭动，能够非常酣畅地表达欢快的心情。如果说你们跳过中国舞的话，会知道这个秧歌。我本人也是在这个之前根本不知道什么是中国舞，但是，到那个时候因为我的心情也非常开心，所以我就参加到这个秧歌中去，这个可以说是一个潮流。全中国的人，大家都开心，跳舞啊。我参加这个活动以后被专业的团体，上海歌剧院发现并招收进去。所以呢，可以说是舞蹈选择了我。我在这个之前，并没有说要成为一个舞蹈家。用汉语说，就是“历史所然”。我不知道有没有回答你的问题，或者你们其他人对这个问题有还什么问题。
Shen Pei: Because my life and the events affecting China are closely intertwined, they are inseparable. People exist within their social environments, and throughout my entire life, I have been known as a dancer and choreographer. This has been my lifelong passion, even at the age of 87. However, when journalists ask me if I loved dancing since I was little and if that's why I became a dancer, it is completely untrue. To truly understand my journey, one must explore my childhood within the historical context.
I was born in 1936, and in 1937, the Japanese initiated the Lugou Bridge Incident. I'm not sure if you are familiar with this historical event. The crucial point is that the Japanese were invading China, and I happened to be born in Nanjing. I left Nanjing just two months before the shocking Nanjing Massacre occurred. I am a survivor who managed to escape. In that context, Chinese people were obviously not talking about dancing or anything else. Everything was all gone. Our lives revolved around the Japanese trying to devour our China. We had to either resist or become slaves. That was our life.
So when you ask me about my involvement in dance at the age of 14, it was a response to the immense changes China was undergoing. It was a time of transformation and the establishment of a new China. The Chinese people had endured tremendous war and suffering. I am one of the few remaining individuals who can share firsthand experiences of this history. I personally lived through the hardships, including fleeing from danger. With the founding of the new China, my mother and I, like countless others, were filled with overwhelming joy. We desired to celebrate and welcome the birth of the new China.
Before that, there was simply no such thing as dance or any form of enjoyment. When New China was established, in order to express the joy in our hearts, a movement called the Yangko dance emerged. Yangko is a traditional folk dance passed down through generations among ordinary people. Sometimes you can see people wearing red ribbons, leaping and twisting with big strides, expressing their happiness in an exuberant manner. If you have ever learned Chinese dance, you would be familiar with Yangko. Before that time, I myself had no idea what Chinese dance was. However, because I was feeling immensely happy at that time, I participated in the Yangko dance. It can be considered a trend. Everyone in China was happy and dancing. After my involvement in these activities, the professional group of the Shanghai Opera discovered me and recruited me. So, you could say that dance chose me. Before that, I never had the intention of becoming a dancer. I don't know if this answers your question, or if any of you have further questions on this topic
采访者：谢谢。所以我们的第二个问题是，你的女儿说你在上海歌剧院时去欧洲代表中国。这个经验对你有什么影响？你对那时候的国际事务有什么印象？
Interviewer: Thank you. Our second question is: Your daughter mentioned that when you were in the Shanghai Opera, you had the opportunity to go to Europe as a representative of China. How did this experience impact you? And during that time, what were your perceptions of global affairs?
沈蓓：很好的问题。这是1956年的事情。因为当时虽然中国的国际地位有提高，跟国际上的文化交流越来越多。到国外去演出的机会很多。但是呢，我这次出去很特别。以前这种文化交流大部分都是因为和这个国家已经建立了很友好的关系，互相就有这种文化交流。所以一般都是由对方国家很友好的来邀请你去。我说我们这个团的特别在什么地方呢，就是因为当时新中国还是受到西方国家的围剿，包围制裁。中国和西方国家，特别是欧洲国家和美国当时都是没有建立正式的国家外交关系。这个对中国的发展当然是很不好。所以从中国的外交上，就很想要突破。这个突破呢当时第一个就是德意志联邦共和国，就是我们叫西德。他们很多的人已经表示了有这种意向。他们是第一个。但是呢，政府还在犹豫，想：“我这样子做会不会美国不同意啊。” 所以呢，我们就不是说国家已经建立了邦交的关系来邀请我们。
国家给我们的任务呢，就是文化和艺术是中国的强项。用这个去影响他们，使他们对中国更加友好。所以要求我们出去以西德为中心，围着西德一直演演演......你知道在欧洲是这样的。你在别的国家演，欧洲的一般的人也会跑过来看，因为他们国家比较小，跑过来看后，大家觉得啊呀这个中国文化那么好，我们为什么要拒绝呢? 最终来邀请我们进去。讲懂了吗？这个和已经结交了很友好的国家来请你去是完全不一样的。没有正式的邦交关系，要靠我们自己演演演。所以呢，以前一般出去表演，我到你一个国家，或两个国家，顶多一个月，两个月。我们这次呢，第一个特点就是时间没有定的。你要一直演演演，演到最后德国请你去为止，所以我们时间特别长。我们去了五个多月, 演了十个国家，最后他们就请我们去，因为反应好的不得了。然后，我们在德国又演了两个月，所以我们在国外连续演了七个多月。是从保加利亚开始。从东欧这么演演演，最后演到瑞士，到奥地利。先从对中国友好的国家演过去。保加利亚，罗马尼亚，捷克，匈牙利，波兰……然后再到欧洲的国家像瑞士，像奥地利呀，都请我们去。
这是第一，第二个呢，我不知道你们懂不懂，如果说是政治上邀请我们去，是政治的关系已经很好了。现在要靠你自己，人家觉得一定要请你去。那你的艺术上，你的art，一定要好。对不对？所以我们那个团不光是上海，是全国找了最好的演员，组成一个能代表中国音乐舞蹈艺术最高水平的中国国家艺术团。所以这个团非常的strong，艺术上非常的强。我们在一起待的时间又长，它对我的影响第一个就是使我对中国文化艺术在世界上的地位和作用在认识上有很大提高。最后中国和德国建交了。也就是说，文化艺术打先锋先进去，然后政治跟进。所以对我来讲，艺术它的重要性，它的影响，在我思想上收获有很多很多。
我说我是舞蹈选了我，所以从开始来讲的话，我对舞蹈的作用并不是那么样的强烈。但是这次出国对我这个思想上有了大的提高，因为你搞艺术，你一定要自己完全是爱它。觉得它有意义，有价值才行。对不对？这是第一个。第二个呢，又因为那么长时间跟全国最好的一些艺术家在一起，和他们都成了很好的朋友。那么对我自己，我那个时候还很年轻, 才二十岁，正好二十岁。但是通过半年多的时间跟他们在一起，让我艺术上打开眼界，向他们学习。以后，可以说很多人都成为我一生的艺术上的榜样。因为他们都是一些当时已经是全国最有名的第一流的艺术家，所以对我的影响非常大。
Shen Pei: That's a great question. This happened in 1956. At that time, although China's international status had improved and there were increasing cultural exchanges with the international community, opportunities to perform abroad were still relatively rare. However, my experience was quite unique. Previously, most cultural exchanges happened between countries that had already established friendly relations and engaged in reciprocal cultural exchanges. Usually, those countries extended the invitation.
What made our situation different was that at that time, New China was still facing hostility and sanctions from Western countries. China had not yet established formal diplomatic relations with Western countries, particularly European countries and the United States. This posed challenges to China's development. The Chinese government desired a breakthrough in its foreign relations. The first breakthrough came with the Federal Republic of Germany, which we commonly refer to as West Germany. Many people there had expressed interest in cultural exchanges with China. They were the first ones. However, their government was hesitant, wondering if pursuing such exchanges would meet opposition from the United States. Therefore, our invitation was not extended by a country with which China had established formal diplomatic relations.
The task given to us by the government was to use culture and art, which were China's strengths, to influence them and foster greater friendship towards China. Therefore, we were asked to focus on West Germany and keep performing there... you know how it works in Europe. When you perform in one country, people from other European countries also come to watch because their countries are relatively small. After seeing the performances, they would think, "Wow, Chinese culture is so good. Why should we reject it?" Eventually, they would extend invitations to us. Do you understand? This is completely different from being invited by countries with established friendly relations. Since there were no formal diplomatic ties, we had to rely on our own performances. So, previously when we went abroad to perform, we would go to one or two countries for a maximum of one or two months. But this time, the duration was open-ended. We had to keep performing until we received an invitation from Germany. That's why our time spent abroad was particularly long. We traveled for over five months, performing in ten countries. Eventually, Germany extended an invitation to us because the response was overwhelmingly positive. We performed there for another two months. So, in total, we performed continuously for over seven months abroad, starting from Bulgaria. We performed in Eastern Europe and eventually reached Switzerland and Austria. We initially performed in countries that were already friendly towards China, such as Bulgaria, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Poland, and then we moved on to European countries like Switzerland and Austria, where they invited us.
That’s the first point. The second point, I’m not sure if you understand this or not, but if a country invited us, then the government relations were already pretty good. And in terms of our artistry, our art had to be exceptional. Isn't that right? That's why our group was not just from Shanghai; we gathered the best performers from all over the country to form the Chinese National Art Troupe, representing the highest level of Chinese music and dance. So, our group was very strong and artistically outstanding. We spent a long time together, and the first impact it had on me was a significant improvement in my understanding of the status and role of Chinese culture and art in the world. Eventually, China established diplomatic relations with Germany. In other words, culture and art took the lead, and politics followed. For me, the importance and impact of art were tremendous, and I gained a lot in terms of my thinking.
I mentioned earlier that dance chose me, so initially, my passion for dance was not very strong. However, this trip abroad greatly deepened my understanding, because in art, you must wholeheartedly love it and believe in its meaning and value. Isn't that right? That's the first point. The second point is that spending such a long time with the best artists from all over the country and becoming good friends with them was a significant experience for me. At that time, I was still young, only twenty years old. But through more than six months of being with them, it broadened my artistic horizons and allowed me to learn from them. Many of them became lifelong role models for me because they were already renowned top-tier artists in the country at that time, so their influence on me was immense.
采访者：所以我们问最后一个问题。所以我们听说中国文化大革命对你的职业有很大的影响，所以我们想要知道在文化大革命结束以后，你和你的同伴是怎么重新回到歌剧院的？是怎么重新建立中国的歌剧院的？
Interviewer: So we just have one more question. We’ve heard about the large impact the Cultural Revolution had on your profession, but we want to know about it after it was over. How did you and your colleagues go back to the opera houses? How did you rebuild them?
沈蓓：这是一个很大的问题，几天都讲不完。其实我现在讲的跟你们其他的题目也都是有关系的啊，也不是说分开的。当然文化大革命是大家都知道，对文化艺术有很大的摧残。这时候我已经不在上海歌剧院了，我在浙江。文化大革命结束以后呢，有很多人都说你的life，你的人生怎么样的起起伏伏的，应该很好的来控诉。但是我自己来讲我对这个不太感兴趣。因为我觉得我已经失去了那么长时间，我没有时间再回头去complain什么去控诉。我现在要紧的是要赶快赶快的加倍的把我失去的时间追回来。这个是我的想法，大家不要以为好像文化大革命已结束1976年结束了就事情就完了。其实人们在脑子里的很多的固定的想法，错误的看法。 就我个人家庭来讲起来，很多的不公平待遇什么，也不是说，明天这些事儿就没有了，这让我花去更多的时间。所以我更不愿意失去机会。
She Pei: This is a very complex question, a topic that could be discussed for days. What I'm about to share is interconnected with all the topics you've mentioned; they are not separate. They are not separate. Of course, everyone knows about the Cultural Revolution and the tremendous damage it inflicted on culture and the arts. By that time, I had already left the Shanghai Opera House and moved to Zhejiang. After the end of the Cultural Revolution, many people suggested that I should speak out about the ups and downs of my life and denounce the injustices I experienced. However, personally, I'm not very interested in that. I feel that I have already lost so much time, and I don't have the luxury to look back and complain or accuse. What matters most to me now is to quickly and doubly reclaim the time I have lost. That is my mindset. We should not assume that just because the Cultural Revolution officially ended in 1976, everything was resolved. In reality, many people still held fixed ideas and incorrect perspectives in their minds. This is also true for my own family, as we faced a lot of unfair treatment. These issues did not simply disappear the next day,。 （Complaining about this) will waste even more of my time. Therefore, I am even more unwilling to let opportunities slip away.
在文化大革命期间，不准我创作，编导 。而且我原来编的有名的舞蹈如《采茶舞》等等，我名字都拿掉了。我们叫署名权。都不准，因为我是一个坏人，所以我的作品的名字，都换了别人的名字。那不等于你回来以后就换你的名字了，没有人承认你。所以你要重新获得这个创作权，你都要经过很长的时间。如果你们想深入研究的话，可以看看我写的关于我编一个新的舞蹈，文化大革命以后的一个新的舞蹈，叫“春江行”的一篇文章。我想用这个来表现我希望不要回到过去。那是一个讲 "放竹排”的舞蹈。竹子编起来，通过这个河流水，把这个竹子运过去。人在上面撑这个竹排，用竹子撑，他就是很好表现我自己的希望和心情。往前看，往前走的这种思想。这个节目呢，比赛当中得了一等奖，也因为有这个节目，所以我又能够被大家承认。我又拿回了我的创作的权利，否则我这个前面创作权也没有的。这需要靠你自己去奋斗，去把它抓回来，我是这么想。
Shen Pei: During the Cultural Revolution, I was not allowed to create or choreograph. Moreover, the famous dances I had previously choreographed, such as "Tea Picking Dance," had my name removed. We call this authorship. It wasn’t allowed because I was a bad person, so all of my works had the authorship changed to a different name. It's like when you return, your name has been changed, and no one recognizes you. So if you want to regain the right to create, you have to go through a long process. If you are interested in delving deeper, you can read an article I wrote about a new dance I choreographed after the Cultural Revolution called "Spring Journey." I wanted to use it to express my hope not to return to the past. It's a dance about "floating bamboo rafts." The bamboo is woven together across the river. People stand on top, supporting the raft with bamboo, which represents my hopes and feelings. Looking forward, moving forward with this mindset. This program won first prize in a competition, and it was because of this program that I gained recognition again. I was given back my creation rights, or else my creation rights from before would be all gone. This relies on yourself striving to take it back, that’s my thought.