Embedded Files
Thirza Cuthand is a Cree, 2 spirit, Canadian artist based in Toronto. For the last twenty-five years, she has worked in experimental video, both dramatic and documentary, starting with her well-regarded short Lessons in Baby Dyke Theory. Her work, in its very distinct voice, is intensely personal but also often laugh out loud. Across over two dozen films, including one feature length documentary, she considers lesbianism, queerness, gender identity, Indigenous issues, madness, and family. Thirza’s work has screened at festivals around the world, including Oberhausen International Short Film Festival, ImagineNATIVE, Tribeca Film Festival, and Berlinale NATIVe.
ML: I have some questions, and I want to start with this one because it's one we ask everyone. Would you describe your work as feminist? Is that a label that you would use for yourself?
TC: Yeah, I think so. I mean, my mom was a feminist, so I was raised feminist. I believe in feminist principles—not white feminism, but, like, I'm not white anyway. But yeah, I would agree with feminism and that my work's feminist.
ML: Would you describe your work as experimental?
TC: I think so. I mean, when I first had to put my work in a category, it was a really long time ago, like 25 years. And I was just like, sure, experimental. Because it was, you know, it was not like a typical film that had actors sitting down talking. And then it's just kind of stuck that way. Like, it's not super formally experimental, but I think the way I use narrative is like an experimental way.
ML: Your work is very personal and you put a lot of yourself in it, not just in concept but also in your performance. So how do you decide when you're going to put yourself out there, and when you're going to cast another actor to perform?
TC: A lot of the reason I used my own body and my own self in my videos, my performances, is because basically kind of intersectionality. There's things about me like being disabled, and being two-spirit and being Cree and, you know, being like sorta [a] gender nonconforming, non-binary person-- like, well, it's just hard to find someone who can embody all of those things in one character. So it was just kind of easier to start out with, to put myself in there. And then when I've gotten into my more recent work, that's about two spirit communities, I still put myself in there, but I've been casting people from the community in it a bit more.
ML: Another thing I noticed in your work is that you use a lot of humor, even when you're doing the serious stuff. So how do you work on incorporating humor? How do you find the right balance?
TC: I mean, I think it’s just because I grew up around Plains Cree people, because that's who I am, and we use a lot of humor in our day to day lives. Like especially even dealing with traumatic things, we kind of make jokes out of it, as a way of processing trauma and things like that. So even serious work or serious things that I'm discussing, I still use humor. But also it's a way to break through people's barriers, like to make them laugh. It kind of gives you an in, and so I use it as a tool for that. Also I just think, you know, sometimes when you want to think about serious things you don't want to always be depressed about it. It's kind of nice to play a bit.
ML: Yeah, your stuff is really funny. Do you ever show your film to audiences before and like, tweak the balance?
TC: You know, usually when I make it, it's done and I show it and then that's how it lives forever. I've never really done target audiences. I mean, I guess I used to show friends and kind of get their feedback on it, but I haven't done that in a while. But probably I'm working on a feature film now that needs it; it's sort of involving serious issues in the indigenous youth and settler Canada. I've been getting a lot of feedback on the writing of that. So I think things that involve the larger community, I have more desire to get feedback from other people just to know that I'm kind of on the right track.
ML: Your more serious work has been about mental illness and that's also some of your more experimental work, like Sight and Madness in Four Actions. Is that a conscious choice to make it more experimental?
TC: I mean, the thing about Madness in Four Actions is, I was talking about psychiatric abuse and it was kind of, like, I wasn't ready to talk about my personal story around that. So it was all using footage from one movie… and then all these different quotes from different people. And then all the audio was taken off of different places online and-- I mean the other constraint around that is I didn't have access to a camera because my camera is broken. So I was trying to make a video without access to actual video recording equipment. In some ways I like constraints like that, though, because it makes me sort of challenge myself.
And then Sight was commissioned by the 8 Fest here in Toronto and they gave me Super 8 reels to film on. I was super experimental, I think, because, well, also I was thinking about sight as a metaphor. And the reality of sight being obscured and stuff. So yeah, I guess that one is formally experimental. Yeah. I think too, it's easier to talk about madness when it's an experimental form, because more literal translations of conversations and stuff are not as expressive when talking about madness.
ML: Do you feel like those films are more for people who have mental illness or for people who don't, [to try] to expand their knowledge?
TC: I mean, both to some degree. I think Sight was more made for people who don't have-- I mean, so many people have mental illness issues, but I think Sight was made more for people who are not as aware of disability rights and how precarious stability is in your lifetime. And Madness in Four Actions was probably made for people who don't understand how destructive abusive psychiatry can be. Madness in Four Actions is interesting, because I was really anti-psychiatry when I made it and then afterwards I actually had to go back to the hospital and it was a positive experience. So now I have more of a, I'm not pro-psychiatry, but I'm more like, I guess I've made peace with the fact that I need it to live [a] healthy, normal life, normal whatever. Yeah, at the same time, I think there are just things in both of those films that people who are struggling with mental health can relate to.
ML: And then another film that you did, Boi oh Boi, is more experimental and you used sequences from your life, or that are presumably from your life and also trying to reconstruct your thoughts. So how did you think about fitting those together?
TC: With Boi oh Boi, I remember when-- I got a grant to do that one. And then I also did it partly in Canada and then partly in Germany. I put this thing on Facebook, like what are some masculine butchie activities you can think of? And so people kind of listed all these things. And then I tried to do them and they were like, you know, not really things I do all the time. Like, I don't really check oil all the time, but I was just trying [to] play it up. And then, I'm like, digging a hole. I don't really dig holes, I actually hate manual labor.
Yeah, [it] is just kind of trying to talk about exploring gender, and the stuff that was shot in Germany was all the voice over. And I think I wrote the voice over in Germany, too, but I mean, there's something too about shooting it partly in one country and then in another. It was kind of like the same thing with my gender, like being in two places at once. So I was exploring that, I guess.
ML: So one film you did recently was Woman Dress, about the traditional Cree myth. What was the experience of trying to visualize that story, especially because you said in the film that your grandpa didn't really like to talk about it?
TC: Yeah, I mean, basically it was hard because I wanted to do a documentary about this character. But obviously the person who the documentary's about lived so long ago that we don't know who they were, like even what tribe they belong to. And so all we have is a story that my Auntie had. So it was kind of similar to my other experimental work, because my Auntie basically told her story, which was like her own monologue. And then I sort of thought of visuals of this person and how they would go about their life on the prairies. And I sort of did it like gestures this person would be doing on the prairies like eating, and there is one of her drinking, but that didn't make it into the film. The dancing was in the original story that my Auntie had sent that this person kind of danced across the prairie, so there was a lot of dancing in it. And then we also had access to the NFB [National Film Board of Canada] archive. Not all of the background footage was archival footage, some of it was stuff I shot, but a lot of it was archival footage. So we had to go through the archives and pull things that sort of spoke to the film.
ML: Do you think you'll do more visual indigenous story movies like that?
TC: I’m thinking about it. There is one story I'm doing that's kind of based on stories that were passed down through my family about members of my family and this medicine bundle we had. I am really interested in oral storytelling traditions and how that relates to me as a filmmaker, cause that's what my grandpa and his grandpa, they all used to do that. So, yeah, I'm kind of interested in marrying the two and seeing how that goes and I would be interested in exploring it more. Yeah.
ML: So why did you choose film? Why did you decide to use film as your medium?
TC: I mean, my parents were both artists, like they're both visual artists. My mom, when I was growing up, she was doing a lot of painting and now she does sort of fine art bead work that talks about disease and and disease transmission and colonization. And then my dad was a sculptor who worked with phones and things. And so I kind of knew I was gonna end up being an artist, but I didn't really know what medium. And then, I don't know... I mean, I think it was probably just the fact that, you know, I used to watch the Oscars all the time, so Hollywood was kind of seductive. But then also, I think when I was a teenager, I realized there wasn't media representation of lesbian teenagers at the time, which was the mid nineties. And then it was not very good representation of indigenous people in the media. So it was kind of like wanting to push back against that. That led me to film and video, just creating more authentic representations of my communities.
ML: And [then] you went and you got your bachelors degree and your masters degree in film. So was that a valuable experience for you?
TC: Yeah, I think so. The undergraduate degree I did was at a film school [Emily Carr University of Art and Design] that was part of an art college that was way more experimental. So I think it sort of challenged me more than if I went to more of an industry-based undergraduate program. But then the program I did my master’s in [Ryerson University] was more industry-based. So it was kind of interesting, having both of those experiences and understanding both sides. Especially because now I'm working not totally in the industry, but I'm doing a little bit more industry projects sometimes. So, yeah, I think they were valuable for different reasons. And I think also it helped me just grow in the way I made my films and the way I thought about films faster than if I'd kept being self-taught.
ML: So how does the creative process go for you? How do you go from idea to movie?
TC: Well, basically, I think about something that's bothering me. I don't know. It kind of just comes from, like... I read the news and I talk to friends all the time. And then something will spark an idea in me. And then I'll just sort of be thinking about it like in the back of my mind for sometimes months or years, and sometimes it won't take very long. And then I usually do a lot of writing around the idea. And then sometimes either the monologue becomes a script or the monologue becomes a story. So yeah, probably most of it happens during the writing part of it, and the shooting and editing happens really quickly. But the writing seems to take a long time and I'm trying to figure out what I want to say about [the topic]. And sometimes, I'll have an idea, but I'll talk with friends sort of around the topic before I put anything on paper.
ML: Do you work on more than one thing at once or do you just stick with something until it's done?
TC: I used to stick with something till it's done, but now I'm working on multiple projects at once. So it's kind of overwhelming me right now. I have some projects that are way overdue and I have to finish them up. But it's been interesting changing from just focusing on one project to working on multiple ones, because they sort of inform each other as I'm working on things. Something that I problem solve for one project sort of helps me problem solve for another project.
ML: So what kinds of things are you working on right now?
TC: Well, I'm working on a feature film script that we're trying to get into production next year. It's about this woman who can set fire to people and things with her mind. She's like, she's very reluctant to do that, obviously, but she's indigenous and a lesbian and and her family and her loved ones are being targeted by this sort of like conspiracy of men. So she kind of has to go seek vengeance.
And then I'm finishing a short film about this medicine bundle that I had mentioned before, that was in my family and protected us from smallpox and wounds from a war and Spanish flu, and then depression later on. And then [I’m] also doing two short films actually kind of based on the feature film, and one of them's more about this mysterious power [of pyrokinesis], but in the past. And then one of the things [is] about this mysterious power, but like in a very small story about being in a taxi cab that goes out of town and tries to abduct this woman.
There's also a performance slash video that I'm doing for the fall for imagineNATIVE. That's kind of about my family's history of having medicine people in it. I was doing some research into witches in Scotland, and I found out there's some people who were charged with witchcraft that I might be related to. So I'm trying to figure out how to marry those two together, like talk about medicine people in Europe and America.
ML: That all sounds really cool. How long have you been working on your feature?
TC: I guess I started it when I was doing my masters, because it was my thesis project. So that was like 2015, yeah, so it's been five years. Which apparently is pretty typical for a feature project to take that long to write.
ML: Are you trying to direct it yourself?
TC: Yeah, I think so. There is some talking about me stepping aside so that they could get more money to pay for it, but then we recently got a grant where we could do this other short version of it and that's supposed to be able to help me get more cred when I go to Telefilm to get the money to make them.
ML: All right. Anything else that you want to talk about?
TC: Oh, I'm part of the Toronto Queer Film Festival, so I'm on the programing committee there and we've been doing these sort of workshops almost every year where we're teaching indigiqueer youth and adults how to make videos. So that's been really rewarding. This year we're doing a sexy video making workshop, which is exciting. So I guess I've been having fun giving back to my community in more ways than just making art.
Maura Lynch is a third year Film and Digital Media major at UC Santa Cruz. Maura found Thirza’s work funny, intense, and heart wrenching in turns, and enjoyed talking to her about it. She wishes Thirza good luck on all her future endeavors.
This interview was conducted via Skype from Santa Cruz to Toronto in February 2020.
Report abuse