Introduction:

Sabine Gruffat is a French-American artist who was born in Bangkok, Thailand. After living many years in Saudi Arabia and Hong Kong, She immigrated to the United States. She is an artist who works with experimental video and animation, media-enhanced performance, participatory public art, and immersive installation. Her works contain her own considerations toward the world such as globalization, urbanism, and capitalism. Her films seek a way to encourage people to join in social participation and inspire political engagement. Her digital media which design for public spaces as well as interactive installations have been shown at the Zolla Lieberman Gallery in Chicago, Art In General, Devotion Gallery, PS1 Contemporary Art Museum, and Hudson Franklin in New York. Currently, she is an Associate Professor of Art at the University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill. Sabine's films and videos were shown in many film festivals such as the Image Forum Festival in Japan, The Ann Arbor Film Festival, and Migrating Forms in New York. Her feature film I Have Always Been A Dreamer has screened internationally including at the Viennale, MoMA Documentary Fortnight, Cinema du Reel at the Centre Pompidou, and The Copenhagen International Documentary Film Festival.

After the interview, I feel like she is a filmmaker that usually can be calm in the environment surrounding her. In my opinion, that is the reason why she can make a lot of works that stand on an objective perspective to let the audience see through the problem which happens in the world. Moreover, she is a nice lady who can have strong empathy toward the female who was mentally traumatized by society. It is nice to talk to her about the issue related to eating disorders and her suggestions toward future female filmmakers.

Click here to see Sabine Gruffat's website

All the pictures and the videos come from Sabine Gruffat's personal website.

Huiyu Zhou: An international student who studies at UC Davis. Double majored in Cinema and Digital Media and Design.

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Huiyu Zhou

So once again, I really appreciate you coming to this interview. I'm kind of nervous. I actually have 11 questions that I want to ask you about. So I wanna have some questions about your latest work which is Antibodies. One I think is really good.

Sabine Gruffat

Are you talking about the game or the game preview video?

Huiyu Zhou

I mean, I watched these two versions. And yeah, it's totally interesting. You get involved in that world. And those issues that all those ladies talk about are kind of the social issues that we all talk about in this world, especially body size, and the other things that females usually face in this reality. So my first question is what's your attitude toward those social problems?

Sabine Gruffat

Yeah, so that's a very good question. So I am making this work because I had an eating disorder when I was young. And I would say that I think that it's different now than when I was young because we didn't have social media. We just had magazines, but my situation was much more psychological and less about looking.

Body image issues are becoming a much bigger problem now. I think they've always been an issue, but I think that now, more and more people are affected in terms of age and gender. It's actually widened. And I think part of it is social media. There are just so many more images of bodies. Some of it is just that we now know more about it. For example, for a long time, people just thought that young women had body image issues and nobody else. And now it turns out that people of different age groups, different genders, different races have the same issues. And so I think it's an interesting problem.

So for the project, I interviewed people. And I was surprised by how many different types of people were having these issues, at different levels. So there are some people who are very sick and have eating disorders, but there are other people who just have body image and self-esteem issues that are not necessarily visible. They're happening below the surface. So, I think that's under-researched in the health world. In general, eating disorders and body image issues are under-researched. Because people think of it as“mostly females get it.” I think there's not much funding for the research, but it's very prevalent. And I'm a teacher, also, I'm a professor and I notice the prevalence in the student body, and with time, it's not getting better.

Huiyu Zhou

You talk about watching magazines when you are young. And you see those pale skinny bodies without a lot of diversity. So I wanna ask, do you think beauty is related to the male gaze? Beauty is defined by the patriarchal society that we'll live in?

Sabine Gruffat

You know, that's a funny question. Because I think that you can see it that way, for sure. But some of the people who I talked to who have body image issues, their problem is more that they are in the wrong gender, so they don't want breasts because they don't want to be seen as a woman. So a trans person isn't thinking about it, necessarily in terms of beauty. So it's more complicated than that.

And, yes, there is the male gaze. But there are different body types. So that's always been confusing to me, too. I mean, Skinny women are ideal for modeling clothes, because they're a hanger in a closet. You don't have to worry that the clothes are gonna be affected by the body. But I think society could create an ideal. And so, now there are other body types that female rappers have; they might have large breasts and large butt. So, I mean, hopefully, there's more of a diversity of body types, but at the same time If there are different styles at the end of the day, they're still ideals, right? , what you should look at. And so and so that's the issue, is that you don't look at one of the ideals - you haven't reached it, that's the problem.

Huiyu Zhou

So it is not related to the male gaze but actually, a problem related to the world itself. The world should be more open-minded to accept those kinds of shapes and diversities. Is that right?

Sabine Gruffat

That's a good point. When you say “no male gaze,” that feels extreme, because I think our relationship to the media is so complicated. Our relationship to body image is not just about the male gaze. I think that's part of it. But it's not the only thing. Especially when you might have people who are male and have eating disorders. So I don't know exactly how that fits in. I t's what the ideals are. , what is the ideal, - Where are you from?

Huiyu Zhou

I'm from China.

Sabine Gruffat

In China, there's a different ideal, probably, and then in the West, Western or America is a different ideal. I think that male gaze plays a part, but it’s not the only aspect.

Huiyu Zhou

I also have an eating disorder too. So this is why I really want to talk about this issue with you, Cuz I have the same feeling about it. Also, I wanna relate to some kind of film series here, because I think our beauty is defined by other things in the world. Sometimes I feel this is a kind of question that really needs to be talked about. There might be a sister who might doesn't have a specific answer. It is important to talk about it.

Sabine Gruffat

I agree, you're talking about something that's an eating disorder, right? And the relationship between, how you feel when you eat something, and when you eat something you get energy. And if you eat sugar, you get sugar and that affects your mood, So you might be hyper or have other biological effects, too. Right? And, mental health effects. But in terms of your mood, the fact that you eat a lot can also affect your mood. So to think about if you're upset and you're eating: that's a way of dealing with your emotions that's not actually related directly to your emotions. If you're upset, eating is not the most obvious way to handle that, right? So make a connection between what you eat and body image, that's another complicated connection. Some people eat a lot, and they don't gain weight, and some people eat nothing, and they gain weight?

SoI think it gets complicated on many levels. But I do think this idea of control is part of it: feeling in control of your body or feeling out of control of your body -- feeling in control of your life. It's one way of owning your body, of saying, “This is mine, I can do what I want to it,” That's one thing that I think sometimes the only thing we have is our bodies. Everything else is external, your apartment. It's not you, But yeah, this [my body] is.

Huiyu Zhou

This is really interesting to talk about body size issues. I also have another question. Did you think about shooting Antibodies as a film? Do you think making animation is different from making films? You are involved in these two areas, and they're all really amazing. Can you talk about your feelings toward these two modes?

Sabine Gruffat

Yeah, so with Antibodies, in particular, some of the people that I interviewed said that they would prefer to not have a body. They don't look like they have to have a body. They would rather just be a spirit. So the first rendition of Antibodies was a VR version. And when you're in VR, you're moving around. But you don't have a body, you just are, nothing. . In VR you're in fantasy and you can determine how the world is made up. There's no physical anything; everything is just fantasy. And so it seems an interesting way to deal with issues that have to do with the body because it's the ultimate disembodied state.

Disembodied means you don't have a body, you're in this other world that's in your head. You can fly; you can teleport; you're not limited by your body. It's interesting for me as a maker -- I learned all this new technology. , And for me, one of the pleasures of making things is learning. And if I'm working differently with different tools, then I can think about what is the relationship between the tool that I'm using and the content?

And there's also a part in Antibodies where you can pick up food and eat it. Yeah. And the food talks. That's an interesting thing because I had an eating disorder, and I know that when I eat, my heartbeat starts to go up. It's very stressful for me. It’s subconscious, but I just can't help it. Even if I think I'm okay, my heartbeat goes up, anytime I'm eating. Just the thought of eating stresses me out and I think having this action in the VR world, where you can fake eat something. It's kind of an echo of that experience. But then instead of, the calories being food, you're fed this story, this interview, these people's, personal experiences with eating disorders. And so it's supposed to kind of make you think about that Mind/Body relationship. And how, an action eating can trigger certain things, you know?

Huiyu Zhou

So we actually want to use the animation to give our audience a direct feeling of those people who have eating disorders have, right,

Sabine Gruffat

Exactly. Well, did you have another question? Did you ask me about the film?

Huiyu Zhou

Yes. The different ways that you make work?

Sabine Gruffat

Very different. But I mean, honestly, I'm not sure I have a really good answer for this. When I make films, I'm more interested in going to an actual place, and documenting it and not having much control over what happens, and just kind of letting things happen in front of the camera. And the thing about animation is you have complete control over every aspect, and so that's very different.

And so sometimes, when I'm filming, what I'm interested in are the things that I could never have foreseen, the things that I can't control, things happening in front of the camera, especially when you work in a more documentary mode. You can go somewhere, and then you kind of just wait and see, right? You set up your camera in a location where you think something might happen. And so oftentimes, there might be events that are scheduled or you see ahead of time. Like if I'm filming at a protest or something and there are people walking down the street, if I go a few blocks down and set up the camera, I can wait and know that those people will at some point, go in front of the camera. Or if I know that there's an event scheduled somewhere, I can put my camera there and see what happens in front of the camera, but there's much less control. To me, it's more sort of interesting. It's actually kind of difficult because you have no idea what's gonna happen. And it's all trial and error. If you're doing something in a film, it's different than if you're doing it in the video, it's different than if you're doing it in animation. , I feel there's a connection between the medium or the tool, and the content. So I think “does it make sense to make a virtual reality project about this?” Yes, because virtuality reality is really about embodiment, then the idea, anything to do with, body seems interesting to pursue because it questions the location of the body and the world. And it changes your perspective completely, of your body because you're no longer in your body, and you're floating above, so it just seems, with documentary, you're limited to by the fact… r Like, for me, I'm a woman, right? I mean, a youngish-looking woman, and there are spaces that I'm comfortable in, and then there are other spaces that I'm very uncomfortable, And there are spaces that I'm welcomed, and then there are spaces that are not welcomed. Does that make sense? The fact that I speak English... so my presence affects this scenario, too.

Huiyu Zhou

So both of them actually are really challenging.

Sabine Gruffat

I think so.

And it's the idea of diversity. It's more interesting to have different kinds of food, and not eat the same thing every day. So I really enjoy going back and forth between different modes. And I think that the interviews and the VR, the way that I shot the sound, the interviews are very similar to the documentary interviews that I shoot, where I talk to people. so there are skills that can work within both media.

Huiyu Zhou

What do you think is the most important thing when you shoot films? And what are the most important scenes when you make the animations? Because you said they're different.

Sabine Gruffat

I always think about, “ what is the audience’s takeaway? ? How will they respond to this work?” And my personal experiences that I enjoy things that leave me with questions. When I watch something, it makes me think of a lot of things, but it doesn't really resolve anything. That's what I want my audience to get. I want them to experience something and then have questions. I don't want them to experience it and feel they know the answer.

Huiyu Zhou

The audience feeling is the first thing that you put in your heart, right?

Sabine Gruffat

Well, I think it's just the way I feel about things. I don't respond well to people telling me how to think, or what I should think. And so if something is too clear, I just always think that it's not true, there's something wrong with it; nothing is that simple. So I work that complicates issues rather than gives an easy answer to something. When I make work, my interest is always in all the different ways that you can think about something, and, and giving all those voices the chance to ask questions. Essentially, you're just showing people different answers to one question. I think it's a more accurate picture of the world. One person's perception is just one person's perception.

Huiyu Zhou

I really like this kind of artistic style. Forgive me - my English is not really good, but there are different colors shining light, and just so those sculptures and they suddenly disappear, and those shiny things, and it's just fantastic.

Sabine Gruffat

So in Take It Down, there are two different viewpoints on what's happening. You have the negative and the positive. So the way the film looks is , sometimes positive, sometimes inverted, and it's the negative. And the idea is there are two sides, right? And you're seeing the two sides kind of , flicker. So that you see the positive image and then you see the negative image. And that's related to filmmaking because it is a piece of film that goes through the camera. But, it's also this idea of ” I'm presenting these voices,” and there is a point of view, and at the end, I erase all of the statues. And what's interesting about it is that, after I made the film some of the statues were taken down. So it was kind of a fantasy, and then it came true.

And that's one of the things that you can do with a film or even an animation: you can present a possible future. So you can, have people imagine what this world would look like. And I don't know anything else that allows you to do that than art making. Where can you visualize what something that doesn't already exist would look like? And so once it's imagined, then it can come true.

Huiyu Zhou

You show people the possibility of the future.

Sabine Gruffat

Yeah, cause I think sometimes people lack imagination. And they just need to imagine, what would it look, if you repainted this house...and, and once you show it, they're like, “wow, that's actually not bad. I kind of like it.” So when I was taking out the statue, I was like that actually looks better. I would prefer a park without the statue.

Huiyu Zhou

Why do you want to use this method? Do you feel angry? I feel like you are expressing your emotions to the audience, but I don't quite get it. What is your feeling when you take the sculptures down?

Sabine Gruffat

It's a very political statement. And there's a lot of anger, , that people have, because they're very passionate about these issues. And so there are two things happening. One is what you're seeing is just the process: the film itself was solarized. If I take a piece of film, and then I solarize it, it'll have different colors. But the other thing is that sort of, flickers is exactly what you're saying. It's an expression. You're supposed to have an emotional response to that imagery, that is playing on your perception. And the sound too is this: , bah, bah, bah. It's an electronic drum beat. And that also is supposed to kind of , enter your body. Sound can go into your bones, the way that images cannot. The idea is, as you're watching this, you have a response to it on a phenomenological level. Just like when you go to a rave or something, you become immersed in the feeling. So, I was trying to have that effect on people. But the other thing is that because it's so colorized I think it abstracts it from reality.

Huiyu Zhou

I actually think it is fine. Because Yeah, it's kind of distracting actually makes me pay more attention to the disappearing statues. . And the color tells me your emotions, I think this combination is really amazing. And that is really why I really want to talk about this kind of effect And it's really, thank you.

Huiyu Zhou

In your film I Have Always Been a Dreamer, why you compare Detroit and Dubai together. I mean they are two cities from two countries. But when you connect these two cities together, I'm confused.

Sabine Gruffat 41:30

Detroit became a very prominent city, because of the auto industry and steel manufacturing. Now they make steel in China, but we used to get our steel from that Midwestern part of the country where the lakes are. And so the auto industry, because they need steel parts, was also in that area. And a lot of jobs were created in that area because of the auto industry. So Detroit is one of those cities that became very wealthy. It was what's called a Boomtown. And so the connection there is this idea of a Boomtown, and, a Boomtown is usually up and down. So sometimes they do really well.

And then there's the bust, which is when the economy falls, and suddenly the, the city that was very profitable and doing really well, , collapses, and that's Detroit. Detroit lost a lot of jobs, and, but it used to be a Boomtown, it used to be Dubai. And when I was living in Detroit, Dubai was the Boomtown. Dubai was building, making fake islands. It was extremely profitable. It seemed , it was growing exponentially, and was very successful. And so it reminded me of when Detroit was a Boomtown.

So the connection is that, we live in a world where cities grow and then disappear, they become very successful and then.... they might not be, depending on lots of different aspects politics, economics, , trade. All these things create wealth and can remove it. And so I guess the film is more about... the repetition of history, how in history things can, can happen again and again, and it might be a different town next time. But that doesn't mean that it won't have the same result, A city that is prosperous, may not be prosperous forever.

But there are also similarities between Dubai and Detroit in that there are inequities between the very wealthy and the very poor. Even in a very wealthy city, you can have very, very poor people who are exploited. And so regardless of whether it's a prosperous economy, you can still have similar issues happening. So I think the comparison is interesting, because it's a comparison between two cities that you can describe as boomtowns, but also, because in both of the cities, the car is the main way that people travel. So it's centered around the idea of the car, and, and something that's basically unsustainable, because of pollution and all those things.

We make a lot of decisions when we're prosperous, and they're not necessarily good decisions in the long run. And you would think that when you're prosperous, you would have the wealth to make the correct decisions, but that's not how it works. So when all the money goes away, then , then there's nothing, so there's no money to make any changes. So it's just, it's really just more , looking at these two cities, one that is very successful, and the one that is economically depressed, and seeing how, even though they're very different parts of the boom and bust cycle, they have a lot of similar problems.

Huiyu Zhou

So you are showing the kind of possibilities that Dubai will have in the future.It is revealing a kind of possibility to the audience about the future of Dubai.The way that Detroit was dependent on to make money is not very sustainable. So what you want to do with these documentary films-- are you trying to stop people from using this way to make money or something else?

Sabine Gruffat

it's not that I don't want people to make money. It's just that when we have money, when there is profit, there should be ways to think more long term about what it is that cities could be or should be, to its citizens. and one of the things that's interesting about Dubai too, is that it's, it's mostly populated by immigrants. So actually, there are very few citizens in Dubai. So where is it? If there is no citizenship, then where's all this prosperity going? I just think sometimes , if you compare two very different things, and you see that there are similarities, it gives you a good sense of what are good solutions and what are not. And, again, this is a film that doesn't really give anyone a clear answer. It just asks a lot of questions, and says, look at this city, now. These are places that couldn't be more different in a lot of ways, , but because of global capitalism and trade, and geopolitics, there are things that connect them, even though they're on the other side of the Atlantic.

Huiyu Zhou

So you actually talk about what cities mean to people, and what people move to the city is a kind of the relationship that these two groups have.

Sabine Gruffat

Yeah, exactly.

Huiyu Zhou

I mean are documentary filmmakers trying to give people specific answers toward one social problem? Or you just make them think about what the world looks like ?

Huiyu Zhou

People usually don’t have a specific idea about how to solve social problems. Is it true that documentary filmmakers use film as a kind of logic to help the audience find solutions to social problems, or is there any other reason?

Sabine Gruffat

So I think you raise a good question here. One question is “ is a documentary film necessarily a way to fix a social problem? I mean, there are a lot of social problems. And I'm not sure film can fix them. The only thing that film can do is either ask questions or provide a possibility of how things might change, but I don't think a film itself can change people. I think it can just provide ways of thinking about things or imagining things.

So I think, it's a discussion, it's just a part of a conversation. you say something and some of it reverberates with people and they ultimately make their own decisions about what you said. I mean, even if I say something very clear to you, you might take it very differently. So I don't know that there's ever a very direct way of saying anything.And I think people see different things in a movie; there are so many things happening on the screen. I mean, I know it's my job to direct your attention. But the way I film, I don't really do that, I purposefully step away from the subject matter, and try not to manipulate the scene too much. So that it's sort of , direct and, I'm not controlling every aspect. I'm really kind of letting things just be , just exist. So, that you can kind of see how the environment and the people and the arbitrary things that happen in the scene that you don't have control of, are affecting our understanding of what is happening.

Huiyu Zhou

I feel films show people possibilities.

Sabine Gruffat

I think so. I don't think that I actually have a problem with documentaries that are too socially directed, because then it becomes propaganda. And you can convey any message. I can find any number of ways to convey the message that I want to convey. I can try to change your mind, but I'm not interested in manipulating people with my films; I'm not interested in controlling you. I'm interested in letting you be the person you want to be. I want you to question the world. I want you to ask questions. I don't want you to believe what I believe, you know?

Huiyu Zhou

So that actually relates to my other question. You say you don't give specific answers, or manipulate people's minds. But how you do feel, towards narrative films. I mean, they usually have a story. And no matter if the story is good or bad, it just goes like that. So what is your feeling about narratives?

Sabine Gruffat

I don't make narrative films. So I don't really know. For me, I think making narrative films is a little bit the same as making animation, where you have more control over every aspect. And so, what would be interesting to me about making a narrative film is not necessarily presenting reality but presenting a possibility. I like watching films, but I think the thing is you have to be honest about the fact that a film is just made up. .

Huiyu Zhou

So the narrative is something like animation because it is spiritual.

Sabine Gruffat

And it can be very creative. Maybe one day, I will make a narrative film. But it just hasn't happened yet. I had to make narrative films when I was a film student. And I would write a script, and I would have an actor...

Huiyu Zhou

And that is the reason why I feel narrative films and documentary films are something different, but have the similarities. Because sometimes we feel documentary films are just the prelude of the game. Like here's the stage you stand on. And how you play this game is your own choice. But when people watch narrative films it's , okay, you use this and you use that, and you lead to this ending.

Sabine Gruffat

You're using games as the way to describe these things. When I was young, there were video games, but it was very basic. I actually grew up in Hong Kong, I had a fake Apple Computer and a lot of bootleg games. We would go to get bootleg game copies, everything was copies of real games. But what's interesting is.. in those days, with a game, you couldn't tell a very complex story. Nowadays, with video games, you can get really complex, many characters, , , much more immersive and realistic. And in those days, games were just so much less sophisticated. And so it's interesting to hear you talk about film in terms of games, , because for me, it's the opposite. Like when I think of games, I think of them in terms of films. Because when I was young games were not a big thing; film was a big thing? And as games became more sophisticated, they learned from film, the way that they tell a story is coming from film. But maybe in the way that you experienced it. Film is a type of game with fewer options.

Huiyu Zhou

I mean, , Final Fantasies and all those fantastic games -- they just sometimes have really complex stories. Sometimes I feel I am watching movies, not playing the game. Sometimes I am confused about which came first? I think with the improvement of technology that will be more confusing for future kids. What is your feeling toward the improvement of the film technologies? Do you think it is a good thing or bad thing? There are so many different elements such as background music and different costumes that distract the audience's attention.

Sabine Gruffat

I watch James Bond movies. I can't remember which one it was. But for me, I could barely watch it, because there was so much camera technology. The camera was moving; when the car would flip over, the camera would move under the car. And I just felt like, “I don't understand why the camera is under the car right now.” And also, I can't see because it's moving so fast. The camera is seeing faster than the human eye can see.

I actually really like technology. I mean, obviously, I know new technologies. And I like seeing what they do and how they function. But I don't think that the arrival of a new technology means necessarily giving up on the older technology either. You can embrace both old and new technologies that you don't have to make a choice. You can appreciate the qualities of each generation of cameras, for example. I really like that with newer cameras, I don't need expensive lighting. I don't have to have big lights in the room because the camera sensitivity means that I can shoot in, in all kinds of environments. I appreciate that cameras can be smaller, and still have really good image quality. I appreciate that. And the portability of newer cameras is also really helpful. I guess I have a pretty open mind as to the different types of technologies that people will use -- , old, new, the newest, I mean, there's an economic issue there. Things can be really expensive, and that's not helpful for independent filmmakers. But I think that the main thing is not to feel constrained by the tool.

Huiyu Zhou

So you think the improvements are good but people still need time to play around with them right?

Sabine Gruffat

Yeah, I definitely think With the James Bond one sometimes it feels dangerous. But not really necessary.

Huiyu Zhou

Okay. And I also have a question about yourself. I saw your profiles on your website, and you were born in Bangkok. And you grew up in Hong Kong. So actually, you have , double cultural background. So does it affect you?

Sabine Gruffat

Yeah, my parents are French. I speak French at home. Kind of you speak Chinese at home. I speak French at home. And then here, we're speaking English. And I'm-- I have more experience speaking English than you. But it's my second language. My parents sent me to international school so everything was in English, but I had a British accent because everyone was from England. So I used to have a British accent. And now I have more of an American accent because I live here. And people were making fun of me when I had the British accent.

Huiyu Zhou

Do you think this kind of double cultural background affects your growing up experience? What is something that the double cultural background brings to you? I mean, you talked about, being laughed at. What else does it change?

Sabine Gruffat

I think what you said about the different perspectives of experience. I think that the reason I think that way is because I've traveled a lot and I've talked to different types of people who see things in very different ways. And so I've never felt --and I also always feel like - a foreigner, in some way, in every environment. Because I feel what people see is not necessarily who I am. And so I think that it helps me to understand different points of view, and meet and be more tolerant to different ways of being. I think that's one of the reasons why I don't like to just present the answer- right? Because I think I don't feel comfortable with it in myself-- I don't feel ONE answer. I mean, if you grow up a certain way, and then you go somewhere and people see and act differently, it just changes the way that you think about everything after that.

Huiyu Zhou

So that is the reason why you have multiple perspectives in the documentary films and the animations that you made.

Sabine Gruffat

Yeah. And I also don't like the idea of judging... like just making a judgment about what is correct and what is incorrect. I'm really uninterested in what should be more tolerated. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding.

Huiyu Zhou

Yeah. Totally agree. Well, time went so fast. I really want to hear you talk about yourself and your works. It is really rare for me to talk with professional filmmakers. So thank you so much

My next question is there are so many things that have happened during the pandemic. Do you have a kind of feeling that you need to shoot a documentary film related to this topic?

Sabine Gruffat

Not really. I mean, I, uh, I did make a video that I can send you if you want. But It just finished it. So it has not popped for public viewing. It's more about my life in my house. I'm wearing a motion capture suit. But basically, it's kind of about cleaning the house. Because I had to do a lot of cleaning the house because I'm in the house all the time. I don't leave the house much during the pandemic. it's very difficult for people right now. I think that psychologically and emotionally it's very hard for me to be productive. I think it's really hard. And I hope that it will be over soon.

Huiyu Zhou

I hope so. So I hope the school can open as soon as possible.

Sabine Gruffat

Yeah, yeah.

Sabine Gruffat

What's the deal in China, are they vaccinated?

Me

Right. They are vaccinating but it depends on what kind of body situation you are in. Some people feel the vaccination is quite useful but some people don’t feel it is useful.

Sabine Gruffat

I'm just kind of surviving right now. I just tried to do one day at a time.

Huiyu Zhou

I hope it passes as soon as possible. So do you have any other project that you want to work on after? I mean, after the quarantine, and let's, let's just suppose that will be and as soon as possible...

Sabine Gruffat

I am interested in hands. I'm interested in gestures. I've started doing machine learning with my hands. So I built a system that can recognize when I say okay, and not okay. And I'm thinking about Hands and interfaces, the interface with technology and, but also communication. So that's what I've been thinking about is hands. And I have special gloves. I wish I could show you. (Sabine shows me the gloves) They are these gloves that you can wear. And I can use them for animation. I think it's not going to be VR. I think it's going to be an animation. I am working on a video that talks about how we communicate with hands but this is still in process. Just thinking about it right now.

Huiyu Zhou

Oh, okay, I mean, it seems you're the kind of person that always gets a lot of inspiration from your environment. How do you get those inspirations? How do you just mark them down? Your works Returned to The Return and Frame Lines are amazing.

Sabine Gruffat

It's a kind of sketch but a little bit abstract. You used photos and your camera to shoot them down and you made your ideas come true by using those images. It is different from the sketch we use pencils to draw on the sketchbook. It’s more like an idea.

Me

So how do you get those inspirations from your work from your environment?

Sabine Gruffat

I think I was lucky that when I grew up my parents showed me a lot of art, when I was young, like in museums. I was also shown paintings and abstract painting, and, so I've always had an interest in that also. That vocabulary, I think, is interesting to me. And I have a very strong response to visual things. Sometimes more than stories...I think on some level, I respond more to sound and image than I do to story. So, narrative is interesting to me, but it's not the only thing. Does that make sense? , Music doesn't necessarily have a story necessarily, it can just be a feeling. And I really like that about it. It feels like fun.

Huiyu Zhou

Yeah, so your work comes from your feelings.

Sabine Gruffat

Yes, a lot of times, it's that. And process... process is the making of something, like, you can make mistakes. And then you can like the mistakes that you made. That happens a lot in painting. I started out as a painter. Actually, when I was young, I did a lot of painting. And, only in college, I started making films. But when I was younger, I just did painting. So I think painting is an interesting process because you can be abstract, you can be narrative, you can make mistakes, and your mistakes. And so that process I think I use in my filmmaking. You're asking me very good questions. They're hard questions.

Huiyu Zhou

I'm sorry. The reason why I delayed the interview for a few days is that I'm trying to think about the questions. I really like to see abstract artworks because they just can't raise so many questions for me.

So what is the purpose of this storytelling? And what is the meaning inside? And why do you use this kind of artistic style to tell the stories? After seeing your work, there were so many things that I wanted to ask. We have limited time and I just have only one last question to ask. Can you give some advice to future filmmakers, especially female filmmakers? You said that sometimes as a female filmmaker, things become a little bit more challenging.

Sabine Gruffat

I wish I had more advice. But um, I think the thing that I always would say to anyone, especially women is trusting your instinct. Don't second guess yourself, do what you want to d, and let other people warm up to it, rather than the other way around, because if you're trying to do something that seems different from what's out there... I wish that when I was younger, I had more self-esteem. I think that self-esteem can be a limiting factor. And I think it's common for women to question themselves and have lower self-esteem. Naturally, and I'm hoping that younger women don't have this. But for me, I did. I was very shy for a very long time. And that did not help me; it made things more difficult.

Huiyu Zhou

So be more confident?

Sabine Gruffat

Yes. I think if you don't have this self-confidence, then just pretend you do. Because it doesn't matter if you do or you don't; if it looks you do, then that will help. So that's what I mean. So self-confidence is always the tough one. For me, I don't know about other people, but that would be, I think, to be confident in your ideas and your abilities. And projecting that confidence to the world is an important aspect.

Huiyu Zhou

Self Confidence is really important. When people do the artwork and then they rewatch what they did, people usually don’t think that is good work.

Sabine Gruffat

Yeah. Especially for women. Because in general, women tend to project less self-confidence than men. Generally, women will apologize for themselves, I'm the one that usually doesn't have self-confidence.

Huiyu Zhou

My God. I mean, it is really nice to have a conversation with you. I mean, before I met you, I didn't know what kind of person you are. I saw your works and I thought you were probably the kind of artist who likes to do 20 or 30 sketches on your cameras and watches them all day. But after I’ve interviewed you, you are really interesting. You always have this kind of inspiration. You have a deep consideration for the world and you don't judge people. It is my honor to interview you.

Sabine Gruffat

Thank you.

Huiyu Zhou

it's nice to meet you.

Sabine Gruffat

Yes. Nice to meet you too.