Avital Meshi
Interviewed by Damaris Guzman
Avital Meshi is a Ph.D. student and professor in the Performance Studies Program at UC Davis, and she holds an MFA from The Digital Arts and New Media program at UC Santa Cruz and a BFA from the School of The Art Institute of Chicago. She also holds a BSc and an MSc in Behavioral Biology from The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel.
Known for her immersive installations and performances, Meshi used methods of emerging media such as artificial intelligence to invite viewers to explore aspects of their own identity through the lens of new technologies. In her most recent artworks, she navigated AI facial recognition systems, examining our ability to modify AI analysis results through performative behavior. By using our external appearance as input, she uncovered biased programming that has the potential to harm lives, making it crucial for us to understand how these systems see us.
The works discussed in this interview included only a few of her varied pieces: AI Seance (2024), GPT Me Project (2023), Calling Myself 'Self' (2023), The Classification Cube (2019), Don't Worry Be Happy (2020), This Person is Not Me (2022), Surveillance Bra for Living Sculpture (2021).
This interview was conducted via Zoom on May 20, 2024.
Damaris Guzman: First, I want to ask about your performance studies at UC Davis. Is there a group of people who produce new media works like you do?
Avital Meshi: There are a few of us. The performance studies are diverse, with people having long-lasting practices. It's only a PhD program, so people are doing all kinds of things. We have dancers, theater producers, and others. Our professors come from different departments because we are a graduate group. They come from cinema and digital media, science and technology studies, theater and dance, anthropology, and more. It's a really interesting group. I love being part of this community, but it's different from the digital arts and new media program at UC Santa Cruz. We have an interesting cinema and digital media department, but only for undergrad students.
DG: I saw you recently had your annual symposium at UC Davis. What was that like?
AM: We hold this symposium every year, and each member of our graduate group shows their work. It was a very intense two days with really interesting presentations. The group is very diverse, so you'd see people talking about animation, music, paper making, and more. My work is very focused on new media, and I'm exploring artificial intelligence. My presentation was experimental. I did an AI seance, trying to channel a spirit using AI, specifically GPT. I used the same device from the GPT Me project [A Human-AI cognitive Assemblage, where Meshi wore a GPT-based device that records conversations and provides AI-generated responses, which they then voice], but I tweaked it to allow for longer responses.. We sat in a circle, holding hands, and I invited spirits like Michel Foucault, Leonard Cohen, and Virginia Woolf. The AI ended up channeling Leonard Cohen, but we only realized that at the end. People asked various questions, and it was a very unusual and spiritual experience. Some people thought it was a real spiritual experience, not knowing it was AI.
AI seance at the UC Davis annual symposium May 4, 2024.
DG: How long was the session?
AM: I asked for more time, so it was about 30 minutes, followed by a Q&A. The whole experience was about 45 minutes. I'm looking forward to doing it again, maybe with a different group of people.
DG: How do you manage your time with all these projects going on?
AM: I'm also a mother of three. It's a lot, but I take time off when needed. After completing my MFA, I took time off to be with my family. I balance busy years with taking breaks. My partner and children are very supportive, which helps a lot. My PhD is demanding, and I commute, but the community at UC Davis is very supportive.
DG: That's great to hear. Speaking of being a mother, do you find it challenging to balance motherhood and your art career?
AM I became an artist after becoming a mother. I've heard people say you can't be an artist and a parent, but I disagree. Parenthood is challenging, but it's possible to balance both. Sometimes I focus on a project and forget to pick up my child, but I try to balance it. Some days I feel I'm not good enough at either, but I try to do both. Mixing personal and professional life helps.
DG: I wanted to ask about your project "Calling Myself Self (2023)." Was the audio AI-generated?
AM: Yes. The project came from a workshop focusing on language and movement. The language is attached to my body through an AI algorithm. The poem I wrote was inspired by books and conversations, exploring the idea that the self is a convention and can be deconstructed or transformed by technology
DG: The video made me think of transhumanism. Are you interested in that idea?
AM: I prefer posthumanism. Transhumanism is more techno-optimistic and centers the human in a way I'm less comfortable with. Posthumanism, as I understand it, decenters the human and acknowledges a larger network. The project might seem transhumanist, but I see it as an entanglement between human and machine, questioning the notion of a fixed self.
DG: Do you have any recommended books on posthumanism?
AM: Yes, I recommend N. Katherine Hayles' "How We Became Posthuman" and her book "Unthought." Rosi Braidotti's "The Posthuman" is also great. Donna Haraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto" and actor-network theory texts are also insightful.
DG: Do you have a favorite website or program for AI-generated art?
AM: For AI-generated visuals, I used Kaiber AI for that project. I explore various apps as they come up. I'm currently focused on text generation with GPT. There are many tools for AI-based film production, which I'm interested in exploring further.
I saw that one of my friends was having an event at a university, but I don't remember the name. They invited people to do an AI video hackathon. People, even without experience, used various apps to create AI-generated videos. I'm thinking about hosting a similar event at UC Davis, inviting people to create videos completely generated by AI. I'm interested in video generation, sound generation, and installation generation, exploring how these tools can create fully AI-based projects. I don't have much experience, but I think it's an interesting challenge.
DG: Do you have a brand deal? Are you sponsored?
AM: No, I don't. I'm mostly working on my own and presenting my work wherever there's an opportunity. I don't have a gallery representing me or any sponsors. I get some grants and scholarships from the university, and they are very supportive. Some festivals, like Currents New Media in Santa Fe, cover expenses for me to attend. My work isn't very expensive to produce because I use my body and open-source algorithms. I don't need fancy equipment. I prefer using available resources, so I don't feel the need for sponsorship. I also enjoy the independence.
DG: Speaking of your wearable GPT device, I noticed it looks very DIY. Did others join you in creating their own wearable GPT devices?
The wearable GPT ME device is comprised of the following: Raspberry Pi microcomputer, a green breadboard adorned with two buttons - one blue, one red - a wired microphone, wireless earbuds, a small screen, a mouse, and a power bank.
AM: I don't write code, so I get help. My partner is an AI scientist, and he helps with the technical aspects. I explain what I want, and he tweaks it to meet my needs. I use Raspberry Pi for the wearables because it's easy to work with and attach to the body. The design is DIY and not very polished, but I'm more focused on the functionality. My goal is to have GPT replace my personality, embodying artificial intelligence as part of myself.
DG: How long do you think you'll continue wearing the device?
AM: I stopped wearing it a few weeks ago because some people felt uncomfortable with it. I introduced myself as GPT Me in a class, and a student complained, thinking it was a surveillance device. The university advised me to stop wearing it. I wore it for six months and now only use it for official performances. It was an interesting experience that impacted my behavior and conversations.
DG: Do you encounter people who are negative towards AI during your installations?
AM: Yes, people often express fears and anxiety about AI. My intention is not to scare people but to have them spend time with it and decide for themselves. Many people are afraid because they don't understand it. I encourage people to interact with AI and make informed decisions based on their experience.
DG: Would you consider wearing the device outside of school now?
AM: Yes, I'm going to Currents’ New Media Festival and will wear it for the entire opening weekend. I'll be performing as GPT Me and participating in a panel discussion on AI and cognition, speaking only through GPT. I'm excited about new commercial wearables and curious to see how people will use them.
DG: In the GPT ME project, you wrote, “Attendees were curious about the nature of the voice I associate with GPT's responses—wondering specifically whether it took on a feminine characteristic.” Do you think AI can develop an understanding of gender traits and emulate a gender?
AM: Yes, the data AI is trained on includes these details. GPT can reflect gender traits based on the data it's trained on. If you ask it to answer in the style of a feminist scholar, it can do that well. The wearable allows me to define specific identities and behaviors, like speaking only with words starting with a specific letter.
DG: Did wearing the device alter your speech patterns or communication?
AM: Yes, definitely. For example, after a conversation about nonviolent communication, I practiced responding through that lens using GPT. It trained me to communicate differently and improved my interactions.
DG: Do you think a similar device could help with verbal communication?
AM: Many people have expressed interest in having such a device. I'm not interested in commercializing it, but companies are developing wearables as AI assistants. I want to integrate AI into my identity, not just as an assistant. I'm curious to see how people will use the new GPT with voice capabilities.
DG: Are you going to use the new GPT for your wearable device during the summer?
AM: I still need to check it out. If it works faster, I'll update my projects to GPT-4. Each update feels like an upgrade to my personality, so I want to spend time with it before making changes.
DG: I also wanted to ask about your earlier installation, "The Classification Cube" (2019). Participants were analyzed based on age, gender, emotion, and action. The AI analysis wasn't always accurate, and participants altered their behavior to receive the desired outcome. How do you see this potential dystopian future, and how does your work address it?
AM: "The Classification Cube" was my final MFA project at UC Santa Cruz, inviting people to engage with recognition algorithms in a semi-private space. It highlighted how performance can present identity. "Don't Worry Be Happy" explored how such algorithms could be used as tools of the law, comparing the electric chair's promise of a humane solution to the potential misuse of emotional recognition technology. It questioned how we can resist these technologies being used before we fully trust them. The performance involved me sitting on an electric chair, smiling to avoid electrocution, illustrating the potential dystopian consequences.
And then also thinking about, you know, if I'm smiling, does it necessarily mean I'm happy? Like, can someone actually be happy sitting on an electric chair? These are the contradictions I wanted to offer with these pieces.
DG: Yeah, that was scary. How did you even get an electric chair?
AM: So, the idea came up in the middle of the night. I woke up with it and waited for my partner to wake up in the morning. I told him I had this crazy idea and needed his help finding an emotion recognition algorithm and tweaking it so it wouldn't give me electric shocks. He looked at me and said it was a crazy idea and didn't want to help because he didn't want me to apply electric shocks to my body. I insisted, and it drove me crazy for months. I spoke with people who could build an electric chair, and everyone thought I was crazy. Then, a friend suggested buying one from Hollywood. I found a prop shop in Hollywood, bought an electric chair shell, and brought it home. My family realized I was serious and helped design a unit to apply electric shocks, connected to an emotion recognition algorithm. I performed the piece in front of the camera for an hour until I couldn't do it anymore. It was invited for a public performance, but it was canceled because it was deemed too dark during the pandemic.
DG: That's probably a good thing because someone could distract you.
AM: Right. I was relieved not to do it because it was painful. I'm not the kind of person who enjoys pain, but for this piece, it was a commitment. My children were worried, but I explained that it was important to me to deliver this idea. It was a difficult piece, but I'm happy I did it. The conversation it sparked was important, and I wrote and talked about it. I'm relieved I don't have to perform it again, but I would if it were invited.
DG: Was there a recovery process afterward? Because it looked painful.
AM: No, there wasn't. Afterward, I learned there is a community of artists using electric stimulation to perform and create art, sometimes pushing it to dangerous limits. For example, there's a piece by Chris Burden where he lay on the floor with electric wires and buckets of water, risking his life if someone kicked a bucket. Stelarc, a body artist working with robotics, created a piece where people could move his muscles online using electric stimulation. Reading about these artists, I realized I'm not willing to sacrifice my body to such extremes. I'm inspired by artists like Marina Abramovic, who pushes boundaries, but I have my limits.
DG: In your piece "This Person is Not Me," there's a large-scale mural of AI-generated portraits, and viewers can see the text prompt used for generation with an augmented reality app. Are you interested in pursuing more projects with augmented reality?
AM: Yes, I've done some work with augmented reality. I participated in an exhibition with Gray Area in San Francisco. I like the technology, but focusing on AI is so challenging because it keeps changing. I want to explore other technologies, like robotics and the combination of AI and augmented reality or virtual reality. I'm always thinking about integrating these technologies into a larger conversation. It's a favorite technology, but I wish I had more time to explore it.
DG: How do you see the role of new media art evolving in the future?
AM: That's a big question. It depends on which technologies come next. Artists like Nam June Paik worked extensively with televisions when they were new, but now TV isn't new media anymore. AI is becoming mainstream, and I'm interested in the moment when AI is no longer considered new media. It will be interesting to see what comes next. Some artists are shifting to work with quantum computing, but I'm more interested in robotics combined with AI. New technologies will always emerge, and artists will respond to them.
DG: How do you interpret the terms experimental and feminist in the context of your work? Do you identify with those labels?
AM: Yes, I do. Experimental means asking questions outside the usual discourse, following my curiosity even if others aren't talking about it. It's about exploring and seeing if things work or not. Sometimes my work doesn't work, and I warn participants that it's experimental. Feminist for me means centering my work around questions of inclusivity and multiplicity. I don't want to see myself just as a woman; feminism isn't necessarily woman-related. It's about thinking otherwise, developing our own stories, and thinking together. Donna Haraway's ideas about techno-feminism inspire me.
DG: Can you name a few of your favorite new media artists?
AM: Definitely. Marina Abramovic is foundational in performance art. Zack Blas does interesting work with recognition algorithms. Lauren Lee McCarthy creates fascinating performance art with computational media. She's doing a really interesting performance to all kinds of computational media and using them during her performances is really fascinating.
But Linhof ml Nissan is definitely one of my favorite artists, and I'm really inspired by artists who are not as content-heavy, like Nam June Paik , whom I already mentioned. I have a piece called Surveillance Bra for Living Sculpture, which is a homage to Nam June Paik's piece, TV Bra for Living Sculpture. I aimed to innovate on his work with an AI algorithm, creating a bra that performs surveillance. If you come closer to someone wearing this bra, it would recognize your face and say things about you. This is a direct inspiration from Nam June Paik. There are so many talented people working with this technology, and it's fun to be part of this community.
DG: How did you get into new media initially?
AM: I studied science, earning a Master's in Biology, specifically animal behavior. I looked at behavior through technology, using a sophisticated vision device for pattern recognition with honeybees. People joked that I shifted from science to art to ask the same questions. I studied art at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, taking classes in various disciplines but resonated most with new media and performance. I went to UC Santa Cruz for an MFA, focusing on both fields. Now, I'm at UC Davis, integrating new media and performance in my PhD research.
You can explore the range of Avital Meshi's work at avitalmeshi.com.
The interviewer, Damaris Guzman, is a senior graduating from UCSC with a degree in Film and Digital Media. She is planning on continuing her studies in new media and video production through the digital media graduate program at San Jose State this fall. She is a digital media artist specializing in transforming complex emotions into visually immersive narratives, using clean, glossy 3D animations. Through her work, she aims to challenge viewers to explore beyond the surface of digital artistry and to consider the profound effects of technology on human experience.