career
math / corner(s) / lost / edu.eliens.net
xx
serious games @ facebook / multimedia @ VU / serious.eliens.net / ximpel / CTSG
question(s): monitor / industry / growth / fb:discussion
Yoeri Staal and 14 others commented on this.
Tweet I read today:
https://twitter.com/ElineMuijres/status/649507303255875584
(Thanks Eline Muijres for posting this)
Any thoughts guys?
Yoeri Staal and 18 others like this.
Comments
Eline Muijres Small note - there are a few schools who haven't responded to us yet, so these are not final numbers.
Tijmen van den Heuvel What is a "game student"?
Rogier Kahlmann This is what happens when the rest of the Netherlands catches up on Utrecht and his little scheme.
Eline Muijres Original pic, hopefully the text is readable now.
Johan Thijen A job that requires:
- 40 years+ experience in C++...See More
Alex Nichiporchik A similar thing happened in Latvia in 2006/07. Too many software developers were graduating, and all of them were leaving the country. Local salary rates also plummeted because of too much talent available. You'd post a job and get a thousand applicants.
Outsourcing thrives in such environments.
The only way to standout in such situations is just to quit studying and start working. 4 years of experience is worth more than a diploma. The other 1000 students have the same diplomas, but not the experience. Portfolio is everything.
Rogier Kahlmann So Eline Muijres, DGG and Control: those Game Monitor reports that spoke of near unlimited growth were...bullshit. Don't be surprised about this mass unemployment. You created it yourself.
Emiel van Dam And this is what economists would call "a bubble"
Tim Spaninks My observations over the past few years are that this is a trend in a large number of western countries. With games becoming more and more mainstream, and widely covered in the media and on popular platforms such as Twitch and Youtube, the interest in ...See More
Rogier Kahlmann Emiel van Dam In the only reliable research paper from 2012 this was called "een varkenscyclus".
Tim Spaninks Would you be able to link this article to us by any chance? I'd love to check it out. Also as much as decent research on the matter would be greatly appreciated, from basic observation it seems obvious that 'supply' is rising at a rate far outstretching increase of 'demand' (if there even is an increase of 'demand').
VERWEY-JONKER.NL
Tim Spaninks Much appreciated smile emoticon
Rogier Kahlmann Also wrote something myselfhttp://www.rogierkahlmann.com/de-effecten-van-onzin/
ROGIERKAHLMANN.COM
Tim Spaninks Rogier Kahlmann Already read that one a while back ^^ Also recall the heated discussion it resulted in haha
Rogier Kahlmann yes, that happens. If I caused any grief, know that we now have "korrelatie", thanks to Thijmen Bink and hishttp://www.playnice.nl/
PlayNice | A healthy, pleasant culture in our game-industry, for everyone!
Here you will read about experiences people in the Dutch game industry have had, so we can all understand how that made them feel. If it made someone feel bad about themselves, which usually was not intended, we can start reflecting on that. If it was good, it should happen more often! And, if you w…
PLAYNICE.NL
Write a reply...
Eline Muijres My personal thoughts:
- Not surprised about these numbers. Game programs are clearly popular for schools, but schools should connect more with the industry to know what is actually needed
- These students will have to start their own companies or find work in other sectors (not necessary a bad thing... we could use more people in other sectors with knowledge of games)
- The main challenge now is for companies to grow bigger. Business skills are necessary for that to happen. I'm excited to work together with Nyenrode to help connect game students with business students!
Yoeri Staal So all these unemployed students start their own studios, to produce for a saturated market. I don't see any potential disaster.
Pim van den Berg http://www.vn.nl/techniek-nieuw-studieadvies-voor.../
Stephan Meijerhof But Yoeri Staal isn't the saturated market a problem that is global and affecting the (indie) game industry as a whole? The Dutch perspective is just a smaller moving part in that sense. Also, coming back to the original discussion, I have seen the sam...See More
Rogier Kahlmann The only proven successful way that we should teach this unfortunate generation, is to teach them skills like 'how to become a consultant', 'how to host an incubator' or 'how to organize your own award-show'. Everything else leads to unemployment.
Rogier Kahlmann And I am sorry for this wil sound harsh Eline Muijres, but should you be in any advisory role after the comercial and critical failures that were Game Oven and Vogelsap?
Steven Honders In a broad spectrum, it's not only the games industry and games studies that have these problems. Almost no one graduating from HBO or University gets a job within 2 years in the workfield that they studied for. Doesn't mean you shouldn't study, just means that you'll have to work really hard, be really good and be more flexible than a ballerina. Networking skills and work experience (through internships or own projects) is already important and will be even more so in the future. This is a first world problem, with people having easy access to higher education and the state forcing people to study and get a diploma.
Alastair Burns Game dev courses are often very blinkered. There are of course some excellent institutions, but most are a bit shit. Shall we look at our industry from a different perspective? So many people just consider game development as entertainment. That aspect...See More
Niels Schippers To me as a game art student this is something I have been afraid of all my study. Finding a job within the gaming industry will be very difficult. My school is of decent quality but I too have the feeling that to many people are being allowed to these ...See More
Emiel van Dam Ok, my €0,02 on this situation: I work at a commercial game development- and publishing company here in the Netherlands and I have to say that the skill level from MBO and HBO is not on par. Hyper specialization in the Big Two (Unity and UE4) is rife; ...See More
Rogier Kahlmann @emiel I have proposed such a thing but I am affraid these ideas are in conflict with the businesmodel of most schools. It pays so well, all this young and naive flesh.
Yoeri Staal "Don't worry, look at Vlambeer and Guerilla. The Dutch Games Industry has amazing chances."
Rogier Kahlmann I don't think we should look at Guerilla as a Dutch succes anymore. We don't own it.
Niels Schippers What really grinds my gears is the fact that people are being told that if you like gaming then maybe working in the game industry might be something for you... Thats ridiculous ofcourse, hell I hardly play any games because I am to busy with other stuff that need attention.
Emiel Kampen Misschien een beetje off-topic en misschien ben ik nog de enige die het wat kan schelen maar wanneer ga jij je gedrag een keer verantwoorden Rogier Kahlmann? Wat is de reden dat je zulke harde en persoonlijke opmerkingen maakt? Wat is de reden dat je d...See More
Yoeri Staal Back on topic: why is the amount of game education courses growing, without a growing need?
Molly Carroll The schools are full and get new students every year, so there is demand. Its just from people who want to study games.
Molly Carroll When I was getting ready to go to college, I never had the assumption that I would have a job as soon as I was finished. I wouldn't exchange those 4 years for anything though because of the relationships created during that time, the ideas exchanged wi...See More
Rogier Kahlmann Misschien is dit het moment waarop we Taskforce Innovatie Utrecht eens vragen hoe ze aan die geweldige omzetcijfers kwamen waarmee we na 2006 zo lekker gingen opschalen.
Arjen de Jong Misschien is niet het enige probleem dat er te veel studenten afstuderen met wellicht onrealistische beelden van het werkveld of een tekortkomende skillset (wat als die dingen waar zijn zeker een probleem is).
Misschien is het ook een probleem dat het...See More
Arsène Van de Bilt Arjen de Jong Ik denk dat het voor tech start-ups in het algemeen een minder groot probleem is dan voor game start-ups. Kijk eens naar de vele tech start-ups in bijvoorbeeld Eindhoven en Amsterdam.http://tweakers.net/.../nederlandse-start-ups-halen...
Arjen de Jong Arsène Van de Bilt, je linkt drie start-ups die geld op halen. Dat is tof, maar het zijn er 3.
Het is een veelgehoord probleem, ook in de tech-startup-scene dat er weinig investeringen te krijgen zijn in Nederland. Velen verlaten Nederland dan ook voo...See More
Denis Matei Stand out,and you will get you'r dream job, is my opinion.
Arsène Van de Bilt Op aanraden van Kenney voeg ik 'm hier maar aan toe ipv. een apart topic:
http://www.dutchgamegarden.nl/.../groei-nederlandse.../...See More
Tino Kort These "Game students" are mostly people who are not specialized though. I believe only the people with proper specialisation, a true passion for his/her specialisation, people skills and some marketing knowledge will get a job.
It might seem frightening to see these numbers, but how many people change profession after graduation, or choose to work in a different field?
Emiel van Dam Also, "Unity" is not a specialization. But that might be a bit off-topic
Aaron Ligthart indeed, I would rather write C# as specialisation and later; has ___ experience in using the Unity game engine.
Niels Schippers I am reading alot about specialization any tips on how specialized I should get to do the thing I love wich is 3D modeling and photo real texturing?
Yoeri Staal There's no fixed line between "this is too wide" and "this is too narrow", so don't ask for it. But you should worry if we still need anyone doing "3D modeling and photo real texturing" in ten years.
Write a reply...
Joeri van Ees I was unable to attend this talk unfortunately. Were unemployment numbers also shared?
Rogier Kahlmann Also know that at the Dutch Game Awards the first MBO-students won an award for best gamedesign. Guess they like to open the floodgates even a bit further.
Yoeri Staal Do we have an MBO for game design?
Lucas Harskamp Yes, I went to one before I graduated there in 2013. Doing HBO now.
Lucas Harskamp I know of several MBO's: Grafisch Lyceum Rotterdam, Grafisch Lyceum Utrecht and ROC A12.
Arsène Van de Bilt Yoeri Staal Not that I know, I went through most and they offer either Game Art or Game Development courses. Not "Game Design", a few might call it like that but there's the specialization in those 2 areas I mentioned earlier..
Apparently MBOs are do...See More
Game-helden Naughty Dog bij ROC Friese Poort Drachten | ROC Friese Poort
ROCFRIESEPOORT.NL
Niels Schippers Those are game art not game design, they are completely different things Lucas Harskamp. And who says mbo students are not competent at creating games... Rogier khalmann you are completly out of line ones again. Your like a virus...
Lucas Harskamp I don't think there is a game design education for MBO, not that I know of. And btw, Roc A12 is programming oriented.
Yoeri Staal How do you quantify "doing well"? Lots of graduates? Lots of jobs? Lots of pats on the back from the USA?
Arsène Van de Bilt Lucas Harskamp Grafisch Lyceum Utrecht: Game Artist / Gamedeveloper, Grafisch Lyceum Rotterdam: Game Art / Media- en Gamedeveloper, ROC A12: Gamedeveloper. Maybe it was different in the past, I don't know about that.
Yoeri Staal Oh ik miste het Nederlandse zinnetje onder de link.
Lucas Harskamp I'm a ROC A12 graduate. I only learned programming there (although it was quite broad and very extensive; application, web and game development. Just write PHP/JS websites from the ground up, no wordpress or anything like that. The same went for gaming; just C++ with graphical libs or just plain OpenGL)
Yoeri Staal That sounds like programming alright. My problem is when all round (generic) game developers think they're skilled programmers.
Lucas Harskamp The fun part was that in 3rd year we were introduced to Unity like it was some sort of difficult thing (that was 4 years ago) even tho we had enough SDL/OpenGL programming done already
Yoeri Staal Teacher are never sure about the pre knowledge of students. We cannot be sure another teacher taught you well.
Sincerely,
A teacher
Rogier Kahlmann They won 'best student game design award' Niels. How is my post wrong?
Stephan Duquesnoy Well as an argument in favor of unity being hard. Gamedesigners build prototypes and validate ideas, they do not build technology. It makes sense that their curriculum is focused on creating and validating ideas. And is less focused on technical specia...See More
Niels Schippers The fact that you say that it is a bad thing that MBO students are also studying game art and development, as if they will overflow the industry. If you want this industry to grow then new people are needed with fresh ideas and innovative thinking.
Stephan Duquesnoy Niels, I find it highly insulting that you believe that innovative thinking and fresh ideas is in any way related to education level. Rogier did not write anything about the quality of mbo students, yet you assume they are worse then HBO, and they need...See More
Arsène Van de Bilt Niels Schippers Haha. I'm sorry Niels, but I don't think there's a shortage of any kind of students studying anything game related. One could even say there are too many. We saw an increase of 130 new jobs in 4 years time, while this year alone 1350 new students will graduate. Where is the industry growth? Where are the new fresh innovative thinkers' games?
Niels Schippers Arsène Van de Bilt people that study game development are also very welcome in different industries not just the gaming one.
Rogier Kahlmann Yes, I find an increase in MBO students just as troubling as an increase game-academics. Maybe even less so as MBO/HBO students at least know how to make a game. But this is also another discussion.
Lucas Harskamp Rogier Kahlmann I'm fine with game academics as long as they're actually creating games and getting data from there to test hypotheses, not when they're writing postmodern fanfiction.
Niels Schippers I do understand what you mean, but I think we'll have to see what will happen to the economy...
Arsène Van de Bilt Niels Schippers The game development specific skills they (were) taught (themselves) go wasted when they work in another field. Specific skills that they would benefit from in another field they lack. I don't see how this kind of in-efficiency does us any good. I know they can find other jobs, but it would be better if they didn't need to. You're saying it doesn't matter, which I don't think is a good stance on this.
Niels Schippers Arsène Van de Bilt I agree with you lets hope the dutch game industry will grow the coming years
Write a reply...
Write a reply...