Karma QA

Answers by Shri kesava Rao Tadipatri(KT), Smt.Meera Tadipatri (MT), Shri Prsanna Tadipatri (PT)

What is Anadi karma , how and when did it originate,

KT: The question of origination does not arise for anAdi (beginningless) entity. It is like asking "when did the time originate?". At the same time if one asks "when a particular day or month or year started?", the question becomes more meaningful. Thus a particular action can have origin. More over, the question can be split into

two parts -

1. Whether karma (tatva) itself is anAdi or

2. Karma of a jIva is anAdi? (meaning whether jIva does karma from anAdi?).

(dravyaM karma cha kAlashcha svabhAvo jIva eva cha yadanugrahataH santi na santi yadupexayA)

("[Even] the beginningless entities like matter, action, time, inherent nature of jIva and the jIva itself exist only if there is the grace of the Lord and wouldn't exist if the Lord is indifferent to them")

1. karma tatva itself has to be anAdi because at any point of time there must be jIva as the creation process is anAdi.

2. The karma process of a jIva - To analyze this, we have to consider the asR^ijya (before the jIva is brought into creation) and sR^ijya (after it is brought into creation) states of a jIva. Before a jIva is brought into creation (meaning it is given a physical body), is there karma for the jIva ? Naturally before the physical body is given there can not be "physical action". On the other hand "the mental action" or the "svarUpa kriya" has to be there since the svarUpa is there. This is not same as the action done by the "mind" after it is brought into creation.

secondly as all our actions cannot be independent as it needs Hari's sanction, so from this context , what is good action , bad action etc...

KT : I guess this is a compound question and has the following parts -

1. What is the definition of good action or bad action ?

2. Jiva is not independent and if so why should it reap the fruits of its action ?

3. If God is the preraka or instigator, how can an action be bad?

1A. The "good action" is "svavihita karma (or prescribed action) done with IshvarArpaNa buddhi (dedication to God) with the anusandhAna that it is Lord's pUja". This is just a brief note and can lead to lot more explanation. This kind of action will lead to proper j~nAna and bhakti and thus lead to moxa or liberation by the grace of the Lord.

A "bad action" is opposite of that.

2A. Even though the jIva is not independent, if it does the action thinking that it is the doer, then naturally the "lepa" or taint comes to the jIva. It is mandatory for the jIva to realize that karma(action), the adR^ishTa of the karma (the unseen effect) and the karma phala (the result of the action that the jIva undergoes) are all under the control of the Lord only and it is completely dependent.

Because of the wrong approach, the jIva reaps the fruits.

3A. God gives preraNa as per the inherent nature of the jIva. Even though God is capable of making a "bad jIva do a good action", He does not do that as it is not His svabhAva. Further changing the very nature of a jIva is practically killing that jIva and recreating another jIva, which does not make sense. remember the anAditva of the jIva, which God protects always.

Elaborate answers for these can be obtained from the third chapter of BhagavdgIta. It is not possible to condense it all in one mail.

Is the phala which goes to tattvabhimani devatas is due to our good karma alone.

KT: Instigated by the Lord, MukhyaprANa instigates tattvAbhimAni devatas, who instigate the jIvas to do shubhakarmas. When doing these shubha karmas, if the jIva thinks that he is the doer, they will lead to comforts or heaven, but will be a bandhaka or bondage only. The tattAbhimAni devatas, being aparoxa j~nanis, have right anusandhAna and so these good actions lead them to moxa only.

If so, what happens to bad karma. Do they don't partake it leaving the jeeva to suffer.

KT: In a similar fashion, instigated by the Lord, MukhyaprANa instigates tattvAbhimAni asuras, who instigate the jIvas to do ashubha karmas. When doing these ashubha karmas, if the jIva thinks that he is the doer (which will be the case; if the jIva is so wise as to see the Lord's doership, it would not indulge in bad actions), they will lead to sadness or hell, and will be a bandhaka or bondage only. The tattAbhimAni asuras, being tamoyogyas, have the anusandhAna that they are independently doing their acts and so MukhyaprANa throws them, with a blow of his mace, into andhatamas or eternal hell.

What are the different karmas and their significance? Is it true that for some karmas, we get the result in the present birth itself while some karmas get accumulated? Please enlighten. Are the work we do in day to day life for our living, earning money, building a house etc. counted in these karmas? I have a friend who argues that whatever we do for ourselves is swartha, and cannot be called as karma. A karma is only charity done for other people.

KT: There are three kinds of KarmAs,

1. SanchiTa 2. PrArabhda 3. AgAmi

1. SanchiTa literally means what is earned. It is the entire action and its result

each one accumulates. It is like a big pool out of which a small portion(as decided

by Vayu deva at the command of Sri Hari) is what one has to pay for or undergo or experience.

2. This small portion that one has to suffer or enjoy is called Prarabhda.

When one's Karma ripens (paripkva) I.e. either most of PrArabhda is exhausted or Vayu deva changes priority, one may reap the fruits of his action in the present birth itself. If one has lot more to suffer the fruit of karma in present birth may have impact on next birth or next to next or even later as decided for each one by Vayu deva.

“PrArabhdamavasyamanubhoTavyam” (one has to suffer PrArabhda).

But we pray Lord and Vayu either to reduce the intensity or to give enough strength to bear. Some times it may be reduced by making one to go through the experience in a dream. According to Madhva doctrine “swapnavU satyavE” (Even the dream is true). This is very complicated and can be discussed at a later time.

3. AgAmi literally means what is going to come. This is the future Karma. Based on what one does now , the person will be forced to suffer or enjoy and as a result forced to do some action in future. That is called AgAmi.

Every action is Karma whether it is swartha or parartha. If it is swartha, the result is something and if not the result is something else. According to Dvaita (and also Vedic thoughts), the thought and purpose of the action is very important. Even Geetha says

“KarmanyEvAdhikArasTE MA phalEshu KadAchana MA karma phala hETurbhUrmATEsangOstvakarmani”

Lord Krishna says to Arjuna “Thou hast right to do action only, never the right to the fruit of the action. Thou art never the cause of the fruit of the action. Nor thou hast right for being action less or without action.” This is the gist of it.

Question on Karma Phala

Do we reap the benefits of our elders' punya karma or their papa karma affects us also? If so for how many generations it carries over. Also what it means if I do some punya kaarya and by that my ancestors will get sadgathi like we hear in epics ?

KT: At the very start, we have to note the Geeta vAkya -

"kim karma kimakarmeti kavayo.pyatra mojitaaH"

"Even the knowledgeable are deluded about what is prescribed and what is prohibited."

"karmaNo hyapi boddhavyam boddhavyam cha vikarmaNaH

akarmaNashcha boddhavyam gahanA karmaNo gatiH"

"One has to differentiate the prescribed actions from inaction and prohibited actions.

One has to differentiate the prohibited actions from inaction and prescribed actions.

One has to differentiate the inaction from prescribed actions and prohibited actions.

The working and knowledge about karmas is very complex."

The question has two parts.

1. The effects of paapa and puNya done by the children going to the ancestors.

2. The effects of paapa and puNya done by the ancestors going to the children.

For 1, there are two kinds of karmas -

1a. The shraaddha karmas, which are speifically targeted for the ancestors. It goes upto 3 generations.

1b. Other types of karmas. The body is given by the ancestors. So, depending on them, things will happen.

2. This also happens depending on both sides.

What do 1b and 2 mean?

HiraNyakshipu had two Jivas. The puNya done by Prahlaada - part of it was made to reach the good soul (Jaya - He is basically a puNya Jiva), but none was sent for the evil Jiva in the HiraNyakashipu body (the ancestor).

Similarly the evil deeds done by HiraNyakashipu - no portion of it was given to Prahlaada (next generation).

In its root, we hear "mADiddunno maharaaya". We always pay for our own karmas. However our own karmas also provide some roots. That means for this kind of karma transfer, there has to be root, which inturn is formed from our own karmas. In Sri Harikathamruta saara, we come across verses that say how Lord transfers the effects of bad deeds inadvertently done by good people to bad people and the effects of good deeds done by good people to the bad people. This has to be understood with care and proper context. However, the effects are normally limited to three generations. Some claims are there that it can go up to seven generations, but the support for 3 generations is stronger.

Q: How do we know what puNya kaarya leads to a corresponding phala. Let's say I donate something to a gurukula , Is that going to give me a good phala to gain knowledge ? Or will it be same as donating to any other charity ? Even though Nishkaama karma only is the best, just want to understand the concept.

KT: Certainly acts like donating to Gurukula, etc. will lead to good phala only.

It is not easy to get full hold of Nishkaama karma for even some matured souls. It is not really a big crime to make some kaamanas. If we have only jnaana without a good livelihood, we cannot even do saadhana. Good health is also needed for our saadhana. Our "sankalpa process" also includes things like 'long life, good health, etc.". It is also said "sharIramaadyaH khalu dharma saadhanam". The goal is not to completely avoid all materialistic things. If that were the case, Lord Krishna would not have given lot of wealth to Kuchela. The moral is that Kuchela did not forget Lord even after getting the wealth.

For the doubt, whether we get good phala for good deed. we have to remember Gita shloka

"naasato vidyate bhaavo naabhaavo vidyate sataH".

(Bad phala does not ensue good deeds and good phala does not ensue bad deeds.)

We only have to trust the Lord that when we have faith in Him, He will take care of us and what He does to us is good for our long term goal.

Asking Him for what we need is also part of our progress and eventually we will realize that even without our asking, He will grant good things for us and so we will gradually progress towards nishkaama karma. It akes time to realize that He knows what is good for us better than what we know.

When one does daana even selflessly, there are two possibilities -

1. X Doing daana selflessly with knowledge about God that God gave us the means and the mind to do.

2. Y Doing daana selflessly without any knowledge about God.

Even Y does not get bad phala. Y gets lot of wealth, but may not any jnaana because of this deed. He may do some other deed, which may lead to jnaana.

For this same act, X gets lot of wealth and also gets better jnaana about the Lord. Thinking about God is another good deed, he is doing parallelly.

Q:But the question is, if a person is a sinner and has committed all sorts of evil acts, but his sons, grandsons etc. are very good and hari bhaktas, wat wl be the effect of the person's sins on them?? Is it not unfair for them to b punished for no mistake of theirs?

KT: Q: if a person is a sinner and has committed all sorts of evil acts, but his sons, grandsons etc. are very good and hari bhaktas, wat wl be the effect of the person's sins on them??

A: The father pays prize for his evil acts and sons, grandsons for their good acts. In fact despite the parents being evil, if the sons turn out to be Hari Bhaktas, they may be rewarded more for overcoming the influence of parents ! Take the example of HiraNyakashipu and Prahlaada.

Q: Is it not unfair for them to b punished for no mistake of theirs???

A: Why are you assuming that they will be punished for no mistake of theirs? That is a wrong assumption. That being the case, its fairness or unfairness becomes a moot point.

My understanding is that every jeeva has to experience Prarabdha Karma whether the jeeva has attained aparoksha or in the path of sAdhana to attain aparoksha.

The only difference is that a jeeva who has not attained aparoksha will have to experience karma phala for SanchiTa, PrArabhda and AgAmi.

Once a jeeva attains aparOksha, all the sanchiTa and AgAmi karma phala pApAs will be destroyed and will have to experience PrArabhda karma phala.

KT: That is right. Acharya says in AnubhAshya:

“prArabdhakarmaNo.anyasya j~nAnAdeva parixayaHanishhTasyo.abhayasyApi sarvasyAnyasya bhoagataH”

In brief this means:

“By Aparoxaj~nAna, all karmas other than PrArabdha,meaning the undesirable Sanchita and Agami get destroyed (in the sense that Sanchita gets burnt away and there is no taint or stain from Agami). The entire portion of prArabdha can only be removed thru experiencing.” Sri Raghavendraswamy explains this elaborately in Tatvamanjari.

The first part does not talk about that only aparOksha jnAni will experience prArabhdha and not other jeevas.

KT: On the other hand, the posting has:

“PrArabhdamavasyamanubhoTavyam”.

PrArabdha has to be undergone by one and all.

Also, I would like to clarify the concept of”DattasvAtantrya”, which is misunderstood very often. Please see in the mail:

If you take an analogy, let us think of a room. Every thing good is there in the room. But it is locked.

You need a key. This little freedom is the key to open it. You need God's grace and Vayu deva's grace to get the key and also to know how to open the door.

KT: In other words, always the svAtatntrya that jIva thinks that it has is parAdhIna only (completely under the control of the Lord). The Lord makes the jIva think that the has some freedom. But when we note the following:

1. Everything is predestined

2. Only the Lord is svatantra

3. He is the preraka for all

we can understand the helplessness of the jIva.

One analogy for why an ordinary being thinks that he has some freedom is this. There is a three year old, who wants to lift and use a big stick.

The parent lets the child hold the stick and yet only the parent moves around the stick. The child thinks that it is wielding the stick and is happy. The parent is happy for making the child think that it is controlling.

A real j~nAni realizes this and sees only Lord's handing everything.

Lord Krishna gives this two sided picture in Gita, when He says:

iti te j~nAnamAkhyAtaM guhyAd.hguhyataraM mayA |vimR^ishyaitadasheSheNa yathechchhasi tathA kuru || 18-63||

This gives the impression that Arjuna has freedom.

This has to be understood from the backdrop of earlier remark.

tasmAttvamuttiShTha yasho labhasvajitvA shatrUn.h bhuN^.hxva rAjyaM samR^iddham.h |

mayaivaite nihatAH pUrvamevanimittamAtraM bhava savyasAchin.h || 11-33||

All the jIvas are nimitta mAtra-s only. He is the nimitta kAraNa for all.

Wherever jIvakartR^itva or jIvasvAtantrya is mentioned, it has to be understood from that perspective. The Lord is “para” or

“Paramapurusha”or All-supreme. To indicate that it is in His adhIna, it is said that our freedom is “parAdhIna”only.

However, the concept that only Aparokshin's have to undergo Prarabdha is mentioned in the first Pada of the Phaladhyaya of Acharya's AnuBhashya.

KT: Please note that “only” is not mentioned.

“ The realisation of Sri Vishnu, in our heart,

KT: Aparoxaj~nAni is intended here. However, note that”only” is not used.

I recall hearing the same concept in one of the “Ramayana” lectures by Shri. Prabanjanacharya, about Lord Rama's exile in the forest (when in the human form), he showed to the people that his circumstances were due to his previous Sanchita Karma's only.

KT: There is no “karmalepa” of any kind for the Lord.

Lord Krishna says:

“na me pArthAsti kartavyaM triShu lokeShu kiJNchana”

(”There is nothing that I have to do in these 3 worlds”)

And Prarabdha applied only to “realised” souls.

KT: No. It applies to all the amuktajIvas.

It does not apply to Lord, Laxmi and all the muktajIvas.

All of sanchita karma is burned when the devotee attains apArOksha ,

KT: That is correct.

"prArabdhakarmaNo.anyasya j~nAnAdeva parixayaH".

The karmas other than prArabdha (meaning sanchita and AgAmi) can be destroyed only by aparoxa. Let us call this as S1.

Then what about the following?

nAmasaMkeerthanam yasya sarvapApapraNAshanam

praNamOdukka shamnastaM naMAmi hariM paraM II

To repeat the Lord's sacred name is to raze all sins. To salute Him is to sink all sorrow. I humbly bow to the Supreme Lord Hari. Sins that can be burnt of are those from the accumulated karma which is sanchita karma

KT: I will mark above quote “nAmasaMkeertanam...” as Q1.

But as mentioned above, that happens only at aparoxa!

as prArabdha cannot be burnt but has to be experienced as per the Lord's will.

KT: That is true.

“anishhTasyobhayasyApi karmasyAnyasya bhogataH”.

In Srimad Bhagavatham 11.14.19 Lord Krishna tells Uddhava yathAgniHsusmridhArchiHkarotyEt dwAmsi bhasmat I tathA madvishayA bhaktirudhdhavainAmsikritsnashaH II

“Just as a blazing fire turns the firewood into ashes so also the one who contemplates on Me with bhakthi , O Uddhava, his sins will be burnt off.”

KT: Let us mark this as Q2.

Kanaka Dasaru's keshava nama says …

sanchitArtha pApagala munchitAgi kaledu pOreyo

KT: This as Q3.

Vyasa rayaru says,

jArathvavanu mADida pApagaligella he gopi jana jAranendare sAlade chOrathvavanu mADida pApagaligella he navaneetha chOrA yendare sAlade

KT: This as Q4.

Prasanna Venkatesha dasaru says sri veMkatEshane nimma pAda darshana va kaMde hiMde mADida papaMgala iMdu pariharisuvudu kaMDe

KT: This as Q5.

Purandara Dasaru says

marevarEno hariya marevare mUru lOkada dOreyA ?

....................oMde bArige shrIsha endare banda durita nAsha beMdavu bhava pAsha -avarigodhigiLLavO klEshA iMdire ramaNa shrI puraMdara viTTalana eMdeMdidge neNevarO aMdige danyaru

KT: The above and all others as Q6. (There are many in similar lines).

The above quotes seem to conflict with the statement S1.

Let us look at some of possible explanations.

1. The above quotes are just stutipara like “one gets moxa by taking bath in the sacred river Ganga”. If moxa can be obtained that way, why go thru so many troubles? So these are also just stutipara? Why will so many scriptures say those words and why should they be taken as stutipara? Isn't it firmly believed that Lord's name has very great power?

2. By taking bath in Ganga, even the internal purity can be acquired, which paves way to obtaining j~nAna and that in turn leads to moxa. “nAnyaH panthA ayanAyavidyate” (There is no way other than pure bhaktipUrvaka j~nAna that leads to moxa). Similarly chanting Lord's names and singing His glory leads to aparoxa, which leads to burning away of the karma.

3. The above quotes say that they will be burnt or destroyed, but not any specific time. Why can't they be taken to mean “at the aparoxa time”?

The objection that comes up is “At aparoxa time, anyway all sanchita and Agami get burnt. Why then mention that singing glory of the Lord burns away the sins?”.

The answer is “Yes it is true that at aparoxa, unwanted sanchita is burnt away, but how would one get aparoxa without chanting the glorious names of the Lord (as one of the tasks)?. Mere chanting without right knowledge is again futile.”

PrArabdha is nothing but a select portion of sanchita that is ordained as prArabdha. So extolling the Lord will save us from sanchita in two ways -

1. by not increasing the prArabdha portion (that is not ordaining a lot of sanchita as prArabdha)

2. by giving right kind of paroxa j~nAna which eventually leads to aparoxa j~nAna, at which time the unwanted sanchita is burnt away instantly.

Thus the above quotes are not mere stutipara, but have to be taken in the right spirit.

As the Lord is our niyAmaka, we have to pray Him for removing our ignorance and bondage and granting knowledge and liberation.

The fourth state is only for the jeeva who has reached the samadhi state through sadhana.

MT: My understanding is that the fourth state is applicable only for mukta jIva and not those in samsara --

“muktAnAM prApyarUpo.asau vyavahAre na dR^ishyate” [brahmanda purana quoted by Acharya].

Those aparoxins who are in samyak-sampraj~nA samAdhi[notjust samadhi] may get a glimse of it.

It is said that chanting of the Lord's name with knowledge about His glory burns off sanchita karma.

MT: Where is this said?

In Gita chapter 13, it is mentioned about the 'Kshetra' and Kshetragnya'.

The first verse says that this human body is 'Kshetra' and the one who is the knower of this Kshetra is the 'Kshetrajnya'.

In the second verse ParamAtma says, 'Know Me as the Knower of all the Kshetras'.

I was curious about the kshetrajna verse--do we take kshetra as meaning just the physical body? I vaguely remember reading (either here or in the VishnuSahasra naama) that kshetra can be taken as referring to the whole Brahmanda. But I'm not entirely sure on that.

MT: That depends on the context of the verse.

The Gita 13.2 has to be read along with verse 6 and 7.

Sri Raghavendra Tirtha explains that the xetra includes:

1. five bhUta-s like prithvi, Ap, teja etc., along with their abhimAni devatas.

2. the tattva-s like ahankara tattva [along with mahat tattva], buddhi tattva.

3. 11 sUxma indriya-s and their abhimAni-s.

4. 5 tanmAtra-s like shabda, sparsha, rUpa etc. alongwith their abhimAni-s.

5. The 7 vikAra-s/modifications of all the above sUxam jaDatattva-s - ichcha, dvesha, sukha dukha, chetana[sustained memory], dhR^iti [steadfastness], and a combination of all these I.e., deha along with their abhimAni-s.

They are called xetra because The Lord protects[tra]them by residing [bhagavannivAsatvAdeva xetranAmatvam]in them.

But when we say “living being with brain”, what exactly is experiencing the range of emotions? It is not the brain itself, because neither the brain as a whole, nor the cells (molecules, atoms...) within it have any ability to experience “kama, krodaadi” emotions.

MT: For example take deep sleep[sushupti], there is “life” but what happens to the “brain” -- does it function?

So it is the jIva itself that can experience these emotions, not the jaDa. Still there is some correlation between emotions and the brain and I'm not sure how exactly this fits in. Maybe the brain acts as a medium of some sort? The jIva's emotional state is reflected as changes in the body, and changes to the physical brain are reflected as emotions experienced by jIva?

MT: Just like j~nAna, there are two kinds of emotions.

One is svarUpa's own and the other is that which is reflected in samsAra as mano-vikAra due to its association with prakR^iti.

the things that we do in waking state is a prarabdha, can a dream is also called as prarabdha? Or it is just a outcome of the thoughts that are crowded in our mind when going for sleep. Does Lord uses Dream as a stage to ward off our huge pile of karma

PT: As per our siddhanta, nothing simply 'happens' on its own, there is always a controller and designer behind it--Sri Hari. If we analyze what we experience in our dreams, we can see there is a higher Controller behind our dreams.

First, let us determine if dreams are caused by jaDa (processes in the brain, or whatever we want to call it) or cetana (some intelligence). How can we determine this? If we think about many of the dreams we have had (I'm speaking from my experience--yours may be different!) , there is always some progression of events that occurs in a dream right? No matter how strange the dream might seem, they are not simply images flashing here and there, but rather there is some”plot” to it.

Who came up with this plot? Just the way a movie requires some director to come up with the sequence of events, the storyline, so too, the sequence of events that take place there must be some Intelligent Cause behind it. Neither the brain nor any of the cells in the brain can come up with a “storyline” for a dream, because they are 'jaDa'. A cetana force is required.

The next question is who is this cetana--is it the jIva or is it paramAtma? If the jIva were capable of controlling what happens in a dream, then it would always wish for pleasant dreams right? Which jIva would want to undergo scary or painful dreams?

Echoing what is said in Dvadasha Stotra--”yadi naama na tasya vashe sakalam katham eva tunitya sukham na bhavet?” If all this is not under Sri Hari's control, why aren't we all experiencing eternal happiness? Applying this to the dream state, the fact that the jIva cannot control what happens to it, what it experiences, shows that there is some other cetana besides the jIva that controls its experience.

So in summary, we can see that the controller behind the dreams is cetana not jaDa, because there is a plot or purpose to the sequence of events in a dream. Only something intelligent can plan something like this. Things that are jaDa, like matter & energy (forces in the brain, or the brain itself) cannot. We can see that is paramAtma not jIvatma that controls the dream, because the experiencer, the jIva cannot control what happens to it, some other force is controlling it.

Just some thoughts that I have had. Viewed from this angle, we can think of each dream as having some purpose, whether to burn off past karma, or perhaps some message (I have heard of cases where people have been given solutions to problems in their dreams!). Also, sometimes there is a misconception that if we get a nightmare, it somehow implies something is wrong with that person. How can this be true? If one is made to watch a frightening film, does it mean something is wrong with the person forced to watch it? Of course not.

As for why we are made to experience nightmares, from the perspective of past karma, this is actually a blessing in disguise. Isn't it better to undergo hardship in a dream, wake up and realize everything is fine in the physical world...rather than have to undergo such hardship in the physical world? Our prarabdha karma has to be exhausted one way or other, and I think we would all agree that experiencing the fruits of our past karma in a dream is far better than experiencing it in our day-to-day life!

As a medically trained person I am under the impression, a jaDa can experience the 'awareness' or the jnAna only when it becomes alive and has something equivalent to a brain cell or something similar to it depending up on what type of organism it is. But as I mentioned above, even jaDa has awareness but it is unmanifest.

PT: I'm not so sure about that--isn't the difference between jaDa and cetana (at least one of the differences) that jaDa is incapable of having awareness. Something that is jaDa (such as the brain, brain cells, etc.) does not have jnAna, but rather it is the cetana inside of it (the jIva) that possesses the jnAna. This is kind of a tricky area of discussion, since it is an overlap between something strictly in the realm of science(the brain), and something that can only be understood through shaastra(the nature of the jIva).

But, from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), a jaDa cannot experience because there is no single 'thing' that can experience emotion, be capable of knowing, etc. Anything that is jaDa can be subdivided, so if one says that brain cell is aware, are the molecules inside the cell aware, the atoms inside the molecule aware,are the protons,etc in the atom aware? There is no single 'thing' that we can point to in a jaDa that is capable of being aware or experiencing. Whereas the jIva is a single indivisible entity, so one can say that the 'jIva experiences' or the 'jIva knows', or that the'jIva is aware'.

I think it is because of the close contact between the jIva and the sharIra, that we mistakenly attribute things like sentience to physical matter(the body, parts of the body), when in fact it is the in-dwelling jIva that is sentient.

A cetana force is required. The next question is who is this cetana--is it the jIva or is it paramAtma?

This is where I have some difficulty. Is it paramAtma or is it the observer ' I ' ?

PT: Meaning, which one controls the dreams that we experience? I actually thought this was the easier part (I thought it is harder to show that a cetana not jaDa can plan and lay out what happens in our dreams).

Once we've narrowed it down to either the jIva or paramAtma controlling what we experience in our dream state, then we can ask, can the jIva (the observer, or 'I') control what happens in dreams? Often times, we feel in dreams that we are helpless and unable to control the outcome of what takes place in our dreams. Not only that,but naturally every individual would want to experience only happy & pleasant dreams. Yet that is not the case, so something other than the jIva must be controlling it. Using a sort of 'neti neti' logic, we are left with paramAtma as the only possible controller behind our dreams.

In Gita chapter 13, it is mentioned about the 'Kshetra' and Kshetragnya'.

The first verse says that this human body is 'Kshetra' and the one who is the knower of this Kshetra is the 'Kshetrajnya'.

In the second verse ParamAtma says, 'Know Me as the Knower of all the Kshetras'.

PT: I was curious about the kshetrajna verse--do we take kshetra as meaning just the physical body? I vaguely remember reading (either here or in the Vishnu Sahasra naama) that kshetra can be taken as referring to the whole Brahmanda. But I'm not entirely sure on that.

Even taking it as just the physical body...we know nothing of the internal workings of our body. The real Knower of all these physical bodies is Krishna Paramatma. Seen from this perspective, the concept of 'naaham karta Hari karta' is quite profound--for every physical action we take, it is Lord Hari who knows how each and every signal needs to be sent from our brain to do that action. This happens every day of our lives, even when we are not doing any physical action,there is some higher Intelligence that knows what maintenance is needed for our bodies ('karmaNyakarma yah pashyedakarmaNi ca karmayaH'). And from this discussion, the controllership of Sri Hari extends past the waking state, and also into the dream state!

This statement makes me more uncomfortable. The living being with brain or something equivalent structure is capable of feeling the self awareness that is capable of experiencing all tones of emotions like ' Kama, Khroda, Lobha, Moha, Mada, Maatsarya'. Also the human being is

PT: But when we say “living being with brain”, what exactly is experiencing the range of emotions? It is not the brain itself, because neither the brain as a whole, nor the cells (molecules, atoms...) within it have any ability to experience “kama, krodaadi” emotions. So it is the jIva itself that can experience these emotions, not the jaDa. Still there is some correlation between emotions and the brain and I'm not sure how exactly this fits in. Maybe the brain acts as a medium of some sort? The jIva's emotional state is reflected as changes in the body, and changes to the physical brain are reflected as emotions experienced by jIva?

capable of asking where this observer I come from. If ParamAtma is controlling all our feelings, is 'observer I' the same as ParamAtma?

PT: Not necessarily. Just because he is controlling what we experience does not mean that he himself experiences kaama, krodha, etc. (I think what you mean by observer I)

If that is so, I can not help but feel that this ' I ' is the same as the 'Aham' of Shankaracharya. Can somebody help me clear this doubt?

PT: No, as per Shankaracharya, the jIva experiencing samsara is one and the same as the paramAtma (I've heard all kinds of variations on this--jIva & paramAtma are both the same Brahman, they're both a product of avidya, one of them is identical to Brahman the other is not). In our siddhanta, the 'I' = jIva is the one experiencing the (real) emotions kaama, krodha, etc. here in samsara. The paramAtma is distinct from it and is the one who both put the jIva in samsara (bandha) and also frees it from samsara (moksha).

Well since we speak about a 'cetana' force which naked eye cannot visualize here is what the scientists at Harvard had to say about dream process -

http://www.hms.harvard.edu/news/releases/1000_stickgold.html

PT: As you're reading the article, you can see that the scientists who did the study do not grasp the difference between 'jaDa' and 'cetana'.

They attribute the ability to reason & logically connect things to ordinary matter: “[the brain]It's actually hunting around and finding other relevant information to connect to”. How can the brain, or the neurons that make it up, or the molecules that make up the neuron, or the atoms in the molecules, etc. have the ability to “find relevant information”? You and I, being cetana, can logically connect things, but matter has no such power.

They're right in observing that something has a set of rules of its own and controls what we dream, but are mistakenly attributing this to the jaDa brain instead of cetana Paramatma (in a way, a failure to see jaDa-paramAtma bheda).

So accordingly they were able to get the same dream dreamt by a group of people who were exposed to a similar activity.

PT: The 'stuff' that makes up a dream is called 'vaasana'=past mental impressions. If all the people are given the same mental impressions (in this case hours of playing video games, which incidentally, I've done several times!), then it makes sense that what they perceive in their dreams will be similar.

So its really the jaDa (brain clubbed with Neurons during REM of sleep) which results in a dream.

PT: But to organize all the mental impressions in a meaningful way (that is, not just random images, but take the mental impressions and turn them into a sequence of events), a jaDa simply does not have the capacity to do that. Only a cetana can do that.

There are instances where scientists found out that people who have damaged a specific portion of brain (due to a accident/otherwise) or Charcot-Wil brand syndrome will no longer dream at all !

PT: The difficult question is what exactly is the role of that part of the brain. When it's damaged, the person cannot dream, but is that portion of the brain simply a tool that's used to help produce dreams, or does it actually control what we perceive in our dreams?

From what I understand, in our siddhanta, we consider the mind/brain to be more of a tool, whereas among most scientists, it is common to consider the mind/brain as more of a controlling agent--it has the independence to control what we experience, whether it's the content of our dreams, or when it comes to memory, deciding what to keep and store, what to retrieve, etc. In other words, most scientists do not consider that there is some higher force that controls what the brain does and the brain is merely a passive tool in the process.

So does our doctrine say that in those subjects paramAtma does not reside.

PT: No, whether the dreams are controlled by jaDa or cetana, this has nothing to do with paramAtma's vyApti. He resides within everything, controlling all jIva-s and jaDa objects.

In the case above, perhaps we can say something like because the brain is damaged, the jIva within that body is not made to experience dreams the way jIvas in other bodies can experience. But it is still paramAtma that decides whether and what exactly one experiences in the dream.

In fact, even in our own life, there are times when we do not dream,yet we would not say paramAtma does not reside within us! All we can say is that particular rUpa of paramAtma that controls dreaming(taijasa) is not active. If we are in jagratavastha, that paramAtma rUpa controls us (vishva), or if we are in dreamless sleep, then prajna naamaka paramAtma controls us. So, regardless of what state we are in, the appropriate rUpa of paramAtma resides & controls us.

Same applies to people in Coma.

PT: I think coma, being similar to dreamless sleep (but we don't know if they have dreamt or not, unless they come out of coma & remember their experiences!), is probably also controlled by Prajna namaka paramatma.

Would appreciate if some one can shed light on this too.

PT: This is a combination of my own reasoning, and what I have learned reading our Shaastra and what I've learned in science. If there are mistakes or flaws in my understanding, please do correct me.

Einstein with his theory of relativity, E=MC2 proved that matter can be converted to energy. Advaitins and Shoonyavadins tend to use this theory to derive that there is only this energy manifested as matter and different forms.

PT: This I find hard to understand--according to Advaita, Brahman alone is satya, made of sat, chit, ananda. Energy is certainly not cetana, but jaDa. If they accept that both Brahman and energy are real, then we don't have 1 real, but 2. Do they ultimately say that even this energy is 'mithya'?

If everything that has mass is equivalent to energy, is the human body with all its internal organs and brain, also equate to energy? In other words, does the 5 elements (solids, liquids, gases, space, and energy) that our body is made up of, is ultimately only energy? What is tattvavAda's position on this?

PT: It seems like questions like this have more to do with the physics of particles than with Siddhanta. Still..here are my 2 cents worth: Yes, matter and energy can be converted into each other, but that does not mean our body is energy. For example, mud can be used to make a pot (and vice versa), but one would not look at ordinary mud and say”this is a pot”. From one angle there is difference between the pot and the mud, from another there is identity (since there is a single underlying substance that has undergone transformation). This topic of whether there is identity or difference between cause & effect has been discussed among various schools of philosophy. Sri Madhva has come up with the concept of “vishesha” to describe this. Perhaps other members of the list can explain this concept of identity & difference as a substance undergoes transformation.

Also, regarding the translation of the substances, the obvious ones are prithvi (earth=solids), aapah (water = liquids), tejah (fire = energy). But the other 2 --aakasha & vayu are translated several different ways. The translation that made the most sense to me is akasha as gases (air), and vaayu as the various forces. This is not something I'm coming up with on my own, but I have seen a verse in the Moola Mahabharata where, when referring to the pancabhutas, 'vayu' is described as 'kriya shakti' (I vaguely recall it being mentioned in Bheeshma's final speech to Yudhishtira, but I'll see if I can find the exact verse). Also, with this translation we have all the forms of matter, energy, and the various physical forces--so it forms a complete set of the physical world.

Namaskara Gurugale,, If sukha & dukha are the phala of punya & paapa, which we experience during our birth cycle, what is the purpose of going to swarga & naraka? What kind of punya & paapa get spent in swarga & naraka?\

KT: From our actions, we get the following three kinds of results -

iShTa puNya (desirable puNya), aniShTa puNya (undesirable puNya) and pApa (Note that there is no division of desirable and undesirable as pApa is always undesirable). What is desirable and undesirable puNya? The puNya, that we get thru niSkAma karma (no desire) is iShTa punya. The desire to acquire knowledge of God or any associated knowledge, the desire to serve the gurus, who guide us to God and the desire of mokSha, etc are all considered as non-desire. The desire here means any laukika desires.)

The niShkAma karma done with knowledge is called nivRutta karmaand will eventually lead to aparOkSha jnAna, which inturn will lead to mokSha. At the time of aparoKsha all pApa and all aniShTa puNya (which are other than prArabdha) get annhilated by the process, where sanchita gets burnt and AgAmi gets just disconnected.

Now the aniShTa puNya will give happiness or sukha and pApa will give sorrow or duHkha. Certain kind of vishesha punyas like some yajnas or annadAna or helping some people who are in dire need, etc will yield high amount of sukha and similarly certain very bad deeds like torturing people, etc will yield high amount of duHkha. Such high amount of sukha or duHkha will not even be avialable on Earth, as there are "Earthly limtations". So, for undergoing such high amounts of sukha and duHkha, the jIvas end up going to svarga and naraka. They are just "high amounts of happiness or sorrow", which are beyond "Earthly limitations". That is all. That is why the jnAnis treat these svarga and naraka as just some extension of "earthly joys" and so do not desire them .

Going to svarga is not such a great thing compared to mokSha, even though, it may be slightly (or for some they may think very desirable) better than Earthly joys. Their lack of importance is indicated by statements like "kShINe puNye martya lokam vishanti" (When puNya is depleted, they enter the Earth again - in other words, they get thrown away from heaven.)

Thus the purpose of going to svarga and naraka is only much bigger dose of "Earthly joys". That is why when we hear the statements like "svargakAmo yajeta (one who desires svarga should do this yajna.) That yajna is like the sugar added to the antibiotic. That sugar is not important. The antibiotic (which is niShkAma karma or karma to please the Lord) is important. Just a child takes antibiotic for sugar (rochanArtham - for making it tasty) and when grows up does not need sugar, a person, who gets knowledge will not need the sugar-like desire of svarga.

Ishta punya anishta punya

KT: As mentioned in Bhagavadgita,

"gahanaa karmaNo gatiH" - Unfathomable is the knowledge about karmas.

One way of division is paapa and puNya and another way is "praarabdha, sanchita and AhgAmi" and there can be several other ways.

Now if we take puNya, there are several of knowing the division, based on the criterion used.

For ex, some of the divisions are -

1. prArabdha, sanchita and AgAmi - (Based on the binding force the Lord has assigned to it).

2. IshTa and anishTa (based on the mokShopayogitva - i.e. type of phala).

3. Nishkaama and sakaama (some may call akaamya and kaamya - though there is subtle difference, let us not worry about

that) - (based on whether it is done with materialistic desire or not)

4. NivRutta and pravRutta (based on jnAnasahita niShkaama is nivRutta or else pravRutta).

When it comes to pApa, only (1.) makes sense and (2.), (3.) and (4.) do not make sense.

For puNya, among (2.), (3.) and (4.), one may notice lot of links and overlaps.

Since the original question is about (2.), it may be less confusing not to bring in (3.) and (4.) at least to start with.

Now Prarabdha , Sanchita and AgAmi apply to each of these.

So, think of 3X3 matrix with column heads as prArabdha, Sanchita and AgAmi and row heads as IshTa puNya, AnishTa puNya and pApa.

prArabdha - across the board - has to be experienced.

Sanchita and AgAmi - Paapa and AnishTa puNya - At the time of aparokSha, Sanchita gets burnt and no lepa from AgAmi.

IshTa puNya - not destroyed, since it is mokShopayogi.