Harikathamrutasara QA

Answers by Shri Kesava Rao Tadipatri (denoted by KT), Smt.Meera Tadipatri (denoted by MT), Shri Prasanna Tadipatri (PT)

Lakshmi:

Many a time,the concept of dosha is hazy for normal standards. The shAstra gives a complete picture of that. The container may be full and that does not mean "there is no question of any kind of dosha". The container may be full and full of amruta or defectless material. Is the container finite or infinite? If it is finite, then the absence of infiniteness indicates the dosha as any absence is a shortcoming. She is nitya muktalu and that takes out the two kinds of dosha - dehahAni and duHkhaprApti. But that apUrNatA doSha is still there.

Further having permanent mukti implies "cap on knowledge", then NArAyaNa being Nityamukta, He also should have cap on His knowledge. We know that such a position is ridiculous. So, they are two separate factors, which should not be mixed up. There are four possibilities. Based on that let us note four sets -

P1 - One is Nitya mukta and has Infinite knowledge (no cap on knowledge).

P2 - One is not Nitya mukta and has Infinite knowledge (no cap on knowledge).

P3 - One is Nitya mukta and has no Infinite knowledge (cap on knowledge).

P4 - One is not Nitya mukta and has no Infinite knowledge (cap on knowledge).

P1 is a singleton set and Paramatma alone in that. P3 is also singleton set and Lakshmi alone in that.

P2 is a null set. No one there. All the other chetanas - Muktas and amuktas belong to P4. This is mentioned with a different terminology in Gita - shlokas 16 to 18 of Gita 15th chapter. P3 is Akshara. P4 are all others and known as kSharas and P1 is Paramatma alone and is greater than P3 and P4.

The problem is we confuse nUtanatva with knowledge. If seeing a new movie gives knowledge, some times one watches a wrong movie, he may get wrong knowledge also. Once again, one has to note the difference between data, information, database, absorbed information, digested and internalized information, knowledge, and wisdom.

"bage bageya nItanava kANuta mige harShadiM pogali higguva" Lakshmi is onl seeing the newness and not acquiring any new knowledge.

Even in the crude example of seeing newness and watching a new show, suppose one enjoys the comedy shows, the person may watch Charlie Chaplin show multiple times - the person knows what is going to happen and yet sees newness in that. On the oher hand a new TV show may be boring. Further note that no aprAkruta TV or any external source in Moksha. Every Ananda in mokSha is manifestation of joy from within. Nothing comes from outside.

The jnAna of all muktas including Lakshmi is at their own individual max. For lakSmi jnAna - the absence of infiniteness is further clarified. IShAdanyatra sArvatrikam. iShe anyebhyaH adhikaM. All the newness she finds in Paramatma is svarUpa AvirbhAva itself.

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Can you please let me know if the following summary of devataa dehaas is right?

1. Outside bramhaanDa Deha: mula-rupa associated with pure tatva

MT: 1. yes, correct -- this is first main "creation" of devata dehas.

5. Correct.

The adhyatma-adhidaiva- adhibhutas are used in different context, differently. In general,

a. adhyatma refers to indriyas inside us -- like eye

b. adhi-bhuta refers to "panchabhuta [body too]"--object

c adhi-daiva as the controlling devatas inside both jada and "chetana". -- Surya deva

2. Aadibhautika Deha: part of mula-rupa + tamas. Controls jada like aakaasha. No daityaavesha here...their pure form operates always

MT: Second "main creation" of devata deha:

As for 2, 3, 4: They are "kala rupas" inside the brahmanda.

Inside the brahmanda, everything is from the mixture of panchabhutas ONLY. Thus, inside the brahmanda, the dehas are referred in terms of 5 bhutas and not as S-R-T.

The tattvas are fast and huge, and only a fraction as "kala rupa" comes as a distinct entity through Chaturmukha. Thus, it is refereed as Chaturmukha Shrushti.

Broadly this has two types:

a. adhyaatma -- devata form as abhimani in our indriyas

b. adhidaiva -- devata form as abhimaani outside cosmological

Their mula forms [ = whole] have deha outside brahmanda as Tamasa [ahankaara] deha, taijasa ahankaara, and vaikarika ahankaara. They are the mula rupas.

They do NOT have any asura-avesha.

3. Aadidaivika Deha (Aamshaavataara in other lokas): part of mula-rupa + sattva = Teja-pradhaana deha. Devatas residing in different higher lokas like Indra in the swarga loka. Daityaavesha possible.

MT: The third main creation of devatas are also inside the brahmanda but through Prajapathi-s -- kashyapa, daxa etc.

Their control is "external" like svarga loka-s. They are succeptable for asura-avesha. Their lokas are also subject to attack by Asuras. They fight with Asuras.

4. Aadhyaatmika Deha: part of mula-rupa + rajas. Controls the chetana by operating & controlling Indriyas & specific parts of jada sthula sharira of the chetana. No daityaavesha here...their pure form operates always

MT: Born as avataara here in bhumi.

5. Amshaavatara on the Earth: Regular human prithvi-pradhaana body along with devataa-amsha-chetana. Performs specific Seve of the Lord on the Earth living among human beings. Aparoksha tirodhaana possible. Daityaavesha & residing of daitya soul in same body possible.

MT: 5. Correct.

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I have a question, is Durga devi, a form of Lakshmi devi or Parvati devi?

MT: It is BOTH plus VISHHNU!!!!!!! -- a long response, below

Let me explain. Just like how we get name AFTER we are born, so also every devata, right from Chaturmukha Brahma gets when they are "created" by Vishhnu during shrushhti. Like how we give up this name when we leave our body [and next janma, another name and so on...]. so also the devatas lose their name! Note that our "name" was there even before we were born, so also every "devatas" name was there always before they got "created".

So, who is REAL bearer, owner and has the name Durga? It is Vishhnu, who has ALL names. He has no "birth" and "death", and present in ALL with all names. He "lends" His OWN names to all devatas. Since He is all pervading, He is in those devatas with the same name too. Why He is inside them? Vedas declare that without Him being present inside them, they cannot have very existence nor function!

Vishhnu sahsranaama calls Vishhnu as "Durga" -- [durlabho durgamo durgaH"]and gives 12 names associated with "dur" as well!

Along with Vishhnu, Laxmi is also all pervading with all names including Durga naama [even before Paarvati's namakarana as Durga]. Laxmi doesn't have birth nor death unlike other devatas. Vishhnu from beginningless time is staying inside Laxmi with all names, so she also gets to be called as Durga. Without Vishhnu, Laxmi has NO existence nor functioning too!

At the time of shrushhti process of "Paarvati", Vishhnu gave His name Durga to Paarvati, and stayed inside her with His Durga rupa to give her "existence", and control her. As mentioned earlier Laxmi is also there inside "paarvati" with the name Durga.

Thus, whenever, wherever, however you do puje of "Paarvati", you have to think of:

1. First Paarvati with the name Durga

2. Inside her, there is all pervading and controlling her is Laxmidevi with the name Durga.

3. Inside all these two, there is sarva antaryaami Vishhnu with His stri-rupa with the name Durga.

Failing to do step 2 and 3, the devotee will NOT get full anugraha, why so?

Imagine you visit a friends place along with your guru-s, and your friend just attends you and completely ignores your guru-s, will you be happy?

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When we say there are no differences between the Lord and his actions, then all his acts are same and the act of creation is same as act of destruction. !!

To understand this, let us look at three things -

1. A verse from Gita -

"vidyAvinayasampanne brAhmaNe gavi hastini

shuni chaiva shvapAke cha paNDitAH samadarshinaH " - 5-18

2. A verse from HKS -

oMdu guNadoLananta guNagaLu oMdu rUpadoLihavu lOkaga

Lomdu rUpadi dharisi tadgata padArthadoLahorage

bAmdaLadavOliddu bahu pesariMda karesuta pUrNajnAnA

nandamaya paripari vihArava mADi mADisuva |

3. Analysis of these words to a small extent.

If the same Lord is present in a small tiny ant and also a huge elephant, how come both of them do not exhibit the great power of the Lord. We immediately jump to express "Oh, the Lord makes them manifest the their strength as per the jIva yogyate."

Then what about the jaDa-s - let us take 3 kinds - physical matter, abstract things like thoughts, concepts, desires, feelings, etc. and actions themselves like moving, lifting, pushing, creating, destroying, etc.

The same Lord pervades the atom and this universe. How come they don't exhibit the same kind of infiniteness?

The same Lord pervades a small thoughts and also the universal will. How come they are not same?

The same Lord is present in a small action like lifting hand and also universal act like creating the universe.

We have to see samatva of the Lord presnt in them and not samatva in those things themselves, which will mainifest differently as per the will of the Lord. The infiniteness of the Lord is also coupled with the independence of the Lord. Our prAkRuta guNas make us see the prAkRuta things only rather than the "aprAkRuta guNa" of the Lord that drives the prAkRuta things.

This prAkRuta outlook drives us to resort to prAkRuta logic and conceals the aprAKRutatva, independence and infiniteness, which is uniformly same in all those things.

We should not judge or apply logic as the Lord defies every kind of logic.

I will give a small example, why that is so. You agree that you are inside the Lord. You will also agree that the Lord is inside me. So, by pure logic, you should be inside me - but that is not so. How come the same Lord is inside the tiny atom and yet the entire universe is inside Him - the only way out is to take refuge in His achintya-adbhuta-shakti.

So, when we talk about the actions of the Lord, we must not refer to the jaDa actions that we are quite familiar with, but the infinite, independent and incomparable act of the Lord that is present in every tiny act, just as the same Lord, who keeps this entire universe inside Him also is present in the tiny sub-electron matter as well.

What is seen or what manifests or what can be conceived is never a measuring stick or else the incomprehensibility of the Lord's Gunas or kriyas completely by even His eternal consort Lakshmi would not make sense.

What does "achintya" mean? Incomprehensible or inconceivable. So "achintya" in its absolute sense can be applied only to the Lord. He is achintya and his shakti is adbhuta and achintya and so His adbhutashakti is achintya. So, the full expression "achintya-adbhuta-shakti" is acceptable and fully consistent term. Transferring His charascteristics to the universe or to any aspect is nothing short of ridiculous.

There are examples for "bhedAbheda", but there are no examples for "achintya-bheda-abheda".

Let us analyze this a little more.

If X and Y are two entities, which does "achintya" refer to? Xor Y or both or bheda or abheda? They take refuge in heavy confusion and evasiveness.

Let us list some of the possibilities.

1. X is achintya and Y is not achintya. Their difference is achintya and non-difference is not achintya.

2. X is achintya and Y is not achintya. Their difference is not achintya and non-difference is achintya.

3. X is achintya and Y is not achintya. Their difference is achintya and non-difference is achintya.

4. X is achintya and Y is not achintya. Their difference is not achintya and non-difference is not achintya.

There can be 4 more with both X and Y being achintya, 4 more with neither being achintya and 4 more where X is not achintya and Y is.

When we take God as one of the entities, then the above 4 are enough to analyze, as God alone is achintya and none else is. That very fact is enough to throw all the four above. When one is achintya and another is not, the non-difference does not happen at all. Then where is the question of discussing whether the non-difference is achintya or not? Then trying to enter a circular argument by trying to exploit God's achintya shakti, if one says "God is achintya- means He can do any thing - means He can achieve the incomprehensible non-difference between Him and the Jiva or Him and the universe" is ridiculous.

Such approach leads to even more ridiculous arguments "God can do anything - so can He commit suicide? Can He create a stone that He can not lift?" If this is one kind of mischief, the above is another kind of mischief.

Similarly, the anirvachanIyatva is also a ridiculous and mischievous approach. The universe is not anirvachanIya. The ordinary jIva is not anirvachanIya.

God will not use His unique power either to bring Him down to the level of Jiva/universe or bring the jIva/universe to bring to His level.

Can you please put some light on Vishwa, tejas and Pragna roopi bhagavad roopa....thank you.

MT: In the mAndukhya upanishad, dvitiya and tritiya khanda explains these avastaa-traya niyamaka rupas of the Lord viz -Vishva, Taijasa, Prajna.

The Vishva has 19 head with the center being that of an elephant face and on either side He has 9 human face. He has chatur bhuja, sveta varna [white]. He gives us all that we experience during wakeful state. This rupa is the upaasya rupa of Vinaayaka and hence he also got the same face.

During jaagruti, the Vishva rupa is "present" in the right eye and takes us to dream state with His another form Taijasa stationed at the neck and during deep sleeps takes us into deep sleep on the lap of Prajna present in the heart.

These three rupas are also pratipaadya rupas of the a-kaara, u-kaara, ma-kaara respectively of pranava. From this a-kaara, the svaras from a-aH gets manifested. From u-kaara, the "ka" varga gets manifested and the "cha"-varga from "ma-kaara"

Prajna rupa Bhagavan is third form in the avasta-traya rupa cluster/vyuha. He is "stationed" in the hrit-kamala karnika-agra bhaaga. He is also called as "bimba", "agresha", "vishvarupi"

"[nara]hari", "prajna", "Atma". He has four bhuja.

During sleep, this form takes/collects the jiva prakasha from the svapna naadi to hrutkamala. The vishesha is that the jiva is always stationed in the paada of Mukhyaprana who is at the feet of Mulesha form of the Lord. During deep sleep, this jiva itself is taken from karnika to the place where "prajna" is stationed. Here in the lap of Prajna, the jiva is totally unaware of external world and knows only its own existence and kaala. Prajna rupi is the one who gives the jiva its sukha in this state to rejuvinate the jiva for its saadhana.

Thus, this form is also known as "Ananda-bhuk"

24 tattvas like manas, dashendriya, pancha tanmatra, panchabhuta all contribute to formation of the gross body. Why do we then call the gross body as paanchabhautika deha instead of chaturvimshati taatvika deha?

MT: First of all it is NOT tAttvika deha -- inside the brahmanda every single deha is made of panchabhuta ONLY with varying ratio through panchikarana.

To give a crude example, though all of us are "born" from Chaturmukha Brahma, we don't call ourselves as "brahma putras" simply because it is NOT a direct cause. Same way, though the 24 tattvas are mula kArana for this deha, we don't call it that way.

KT: This is about the original question of the thread. Firstly we have to first analyze the topic finalize the answer then come up with examples. This is a safe approach as then only the examples will also be appropriate as what was shown by Sri Jagannatha dAsaru in Sri HarikathamrutasAra. Please note that we are not comparing ourselves to those great ones. I am only stressing on the approach. Here I see a reverse approach that - first resorting to the examples and then trying to arrive at the conclusion. There are two issues with this. Firstly this is not a right approach. Secondly, if the examples are wrong, we may end up with wrong conclusions also. For example,here the question was why the body is not called chaturvimshAti tAtvika deha, but rather called pAnchabhautika deha? So, the question pertains to upAdAna kAraNa, but not nimitta kAraNa. Both the examples of Brahma putra and pot maker pertain to nimitta kAraNa. Also, there is no mention of direct and indirect kAraNas here.

If you see the 24 tatvas, you can notice three things -

1. The 5 jnAnendriyas will function (as appropriate) only when the Jiva is there inside (of course, its mUla is MukhyaprANa and its mUla is ParamAtma).

2. Same with the 5 karmendiyas

3. PanchatanmAtras as viShayas for the 5 jnAnendriyas also become relevant only when the jIva is inside,

4. The manastatva, AhankAra tatva and Mahatva and Avyaktatatva work thru the jIva (of course the tatvas do many roles, but we are seeing what is relevant here).

So, the panchabhUtas are there even after the jIva leaves the body.

Then the second thing you can notice is that among these tatvas, you can notice the categories like sthUla, sthUlatara and sthUlatama and sUkShma, sUkShmatara and sUkShmatama. So, all types of sthUla will be considered in upAdAnatva. Then it may be fine to consider sUkShma. Why take into account sUkShmatara or sUkShmatama?

Then we are talking about the upAdAnatva. So, tatvas are a more broad term. Though the panchabhUtas are part of the 24 tatvas, we don't call the body as pAnchatAtvika deha either. the bhUtas are the elements or constituting ingredients. So pAnchabhautika deha is the right term.

So, even if others are present, we are calling the body pAnchabhautika and we have to think of only upAdAna kAraNas while giving examples. Suppose we build walls. Then inside the walls, we also keep electric wiring. But when one asks what the walls are made with, we list like bricks, concrete, etc. We don't say electric wires even if they are present there.

Is there a specific reason that Shri Harikathamruthasara is written in Bhamini Shatpadi and also are there any other type of shatpadis ?

KT: There are six types of Shatpadi. Among those, the works in Kannada are available for three only (Bhoga, Bhamini and Vardhaka).

1. Shara Shatpadi

2. Kusuma Shatpadi

3. Bhoga Shatpadi (Tirukana Kanasu by Muppina ShadakShari and a few others)

The 6th gana can only be a GL or LLL

4. Bhamini Shatpati (Shri Harikathamruthasara by Sri Jagannatha Dasaru, Karnata Bharata Kathamanjari by Kumara Vyasa and a few others)

5. Parivardhini Shatpati

6. Vardhaka Shatpati (Harishchandra Kavya by Raghavanka and a few others)

Each prosody is suited for certain type of Bhaava. For devotional type of works, Bhamini Shatpadi is more apt. For Kavyas, Vardhaka Shatpadi is apt. For general works Bhoga Shatpadi is apt. Though the word Bhamini means woman, it can also mean that which makes us understand and leads to the Lord known as "bhaa".

HKAS mentions many many rupas in different things - around us, in us, in food, etc.

a) Are there samvaadi vakyas in sarvamula, shruti etc. about these rupas mentioned in HKAS? [Pramanas for some very famous of these rupas is seen in Bhagavata and elsewhere, but there doesn't seem to be easily visible matching statements for a majority of them].

In this case we have to take these rupas based on aapta vakya pramaana?

b) Do we (32 kaksha humans) have to do anusandhana/upasana of all these rupas during various kriyas (like bhojana) or otherwise? In other words, would the mere superficial knowledge of all these rupas be sufficient for us or more is expected? It is very likely that Sri Jagannatha Dasaru had aparoxa of all these rupas mentioned in HKAS. But being higher kaksha he would be entitled for their upasana (vyaptopasana in some cases) which may not apply in our case for majority of rupas.

KT: a) In Smruti granthas like Prakasha samhita, GuruvRutta, have references for many of them as per the commentary of Sri Sankarshana Odeyaru.

There is no harm in taking them as aapta vAkya pramaaNa.

b) We do upAsana of maximum of 4 rUpas only "sat, chit, Ananda and Atma".

We just need to have some knowledge as per individual capacity. We dont do upAsana of all these rupas. Such knowledge helps in the anusandhaana as we consume these foods. Also, we become aware that higher kakSha devats do their upAsana. From ANubhAShya -

"sachchidAnandaAtmeti maanuShaistu sureshvaraiH

yathAkramam bahuguNairbrahmaNA hyakhilarguNaiH |

upaasyaH sarvavedaishcha sarvairapi yathaabalam"

(Manushyas do upAsana of sat, chit, Ananda and Atma. The gods do upAsana of the Lord in many forms by His many Gunas. Brahma does upAsana by many gUnas. The Lord is worshipped by vedic statements. All worship the Lord as per their capacity)

I hope you wouldn't mind my two follow-up questions on this.

A. First question

As the number of rupas in any vastu can be arrived at by calculating the position of that vyanjana in the vargiya/avargiya etc.and then following reverse order of the name of that item. Would it be safe to presume Prakasha Samhita was perhaps hinting at the above way of arriving at the number of rupas in every vastu?

It is not at all unreasonable since the following ideas hold good.

1. tat tat vastuh tat tat akaara paramatma, and

2. All words indicate name of Vishnu in mukhyartha and thus the names indicate his rupas.

B.Second question

Taking this further one step, how do we deal with something like this :

Water = vaari, jala, tOya

By applying the number of rupas rule

vaari : ra = 2, va = 4, hence 24 rupas (vaariyolippudu ippatu naaku rupa - vibhuti sandhi)

jala : la = 3 ja = 3 hence 33 rupas

toya : ya = 1 t = 1, hence 11 rupas

So, when I am looking at the same vastu and using different terms to refer it, then I end up with different number of rupas of God in it. If that is indeed the case, then the rupas become a shabda-vishesha than vastu-vishesha. Wouldn't it?

KT: A. For first Q, we have to know that every vastu has ananta rUpas of Paramaatma. Every atom has many rupas of Paramaatma.

When we say "tat tat shabda vaachya rUpas", it does not mean that only that many rUpas are there. When we think of that shabda, we think that Lord has that corresponding Rupas and the high kakSha devats do Upaasane, but we just say that Lord is there in those forms and pray Him that we have that awareness. Apart from that kind of forms, there are abhimaani devatas, their antargata rUpas are there.

Continuing that for second Q -

B. There are two ways, we can see -

Lord has 24 + 33 + 11 + ... like that many rUpas.

Or even though there are many names for milk, in Sri Harikathamruta saara, the saara rUpas re taken like irrespective of all the names, "vishada" is the thing in there and so kshIra or payas or dugdha or milk has 354 forms.

In fact, all this meditation process of the Lord must lead us to the understanding of His infinite capacity and not limitations.

That is why Dasaru goes on saying -

ಒಂದು ಗುಣದೋಳನಂತ ಗುಣಗಳು, ಒಂದು ರೂಪದೊಳಿಹವು ಲೋಕಗಳೊಂದು ರೂಪದಿ ಧರಿಸಿ ತದ್ಗ ಪದಾರ್ಥದೊಳಹೊರಗೆ |

ಬಾಂದಳದ ಪೊಲಿದ್ದು ಬಹು ಪೆಸರಿಂದ ಕರೆಸುತ ಪೂರ್ಣ ಜ್ಞಾನಾನಂದಮಯ ಪರಿಪರಿ ವಿಹಾರವ ಮಾಡಿ ಮಾಡಿಸುವ.

"oMdu guNadoLanaMta guNagaLu, oMdu rUpadoLihavu lOkagaLoMdu

rUpadi dharisi tadga padaarthadoLahorage |

bAMdalada pOliddu bahu pesariMda karesuta pUrNa jnaanaanaMdamaya paripari vihaarava maaDi maaDisuva."

and again -

ಒಂದರೊಳಗೊಂದು ಬೇರೆದಿಹ ಇಂದಿರೇಶನ ರೂಪಗಳ ಮನ ಬಂದ ತೆರದಲಿ ಚಿಂತಿಸಿದಕನುಮಾನವಿನಿತಿಲ್ಲ |

ಸಿಂಧುರಾಜನೊಳಂಬರಾಲಯ ಬಂಧಿಸಲು ಪ್ರತಿ ತಂತುಗಳೊಳುದಬಿಂದು ವ್ಯಾಪಿಸಿದಂತೆ ಇರುತಿಪ್ಪನು ಚರಾಚಾರದಿ.

"oMdaroLagoMdu berediha iMdireshana rUpagaLa mana baMda teradali chiMti sidakanumaanavinitilla siMdhuraajanoLambaraalaya

baMdhisalu prati taMtugaLoLudabiMdu vyaapisidaMte irutippanu

charaacharadi."

Thus the Lord is present in many forms any way. If there are many names, having a few more forms is not an impossibility.

HKAS_02-27 karuNA saMdhi

"laxmaNa being shEShAMsha and shESha being jIvAbhimAni dEvata and ParamAtma protects His devotees thru shESha."

I thought Sri Mukhya Prana is the jIvabhimAni dEvata and ParamAtma protects His devotees thru Mukhya Prana

MT: Yes, the jIvAbhimAni is only Mukhya Prana, and none below him have abhimAnitva for 'svarUpadeha'. Actually sheshha doesn't even have entry into the jIva.

sheshha [along with others] is the dehAbhimAni--especially the manas tattva.

ShaTprashna bhAshhya 1.7:

"rudro vIndraH sheShakAmau manasastveva devatAH"

Also, for adhyatmika study/ shravaNa the grace of Shesha devaru is very much needed.

Acharya, while elaborating the vibhUti ruPa-s of Bhagavan [BTN 11.16], mentions that His nine rUpa-s are presentas upAsana rUpa-s [navamUrthi nAma-s] in each of the the nine rUpa-s of Laxmi, Brahma, Vayu, Garuda, Shesha, andRudra.

The nine upAsana mUrthi rUpa-s of Bhagvan present in the nine rUpa-s of Shesha are sheshha, ananta, nara, laxmaNa,bala, saN^karshhaNa, nIlavAsa, jagadraxa and jalesha.

BTN 11.16.32:

"sheshho.ananto narashchaiva laxmaNo bala eva cha

saN^karshhaNo nIlavAsA jagadraxo jaleshayaH"

Acharya reminds us that one should see "ekamUrthi" in all His rUpa-s, i.e., there is no bheda in all His rUpa-s present in all vastu-s.

HKAS_03-08 vyApti saMdhi

Although the swarUpa dEha is ancient or prehistoric and it cannot be split at all, during the state of dream, ParamAtma splits the swarUpa dEha of such niraMsha jIva-s into many parts with his astonishing powers

MT: svarUpa-deha, a.k.a jIva can never be split even in dream state. jIva is compared to that of a lamp placed in the center of a room and just like its prakAsha reaches every corner so is the prakAsha of the jIva reaches every part of the sthUla deha.The lamp cannot be divided but the prakAsha/light in a room can be divided by building blocks/walls,so also the *prakAsha* of the jIva[by the power of God] -- like the prakAsha being withdrawn during jagra/svapna/sushupti.

shESha dEvaru is the biMba rUpa of sthAvara jIva-s thus called “varabhOgishayana”.

MT: Shesha is the bimbarUpi [in a secondary sense as Bhagavan is the bimba for all of us]for Indra/Kama-s.

MBTN 1.14:

AbhAsako.asya pavanaH pavanasya rudraH

sheshhAtmako garuDa eva cha shakrakAmau |

vIndreshayostadapare tvanayoshcha teshhAM

R^ishhyAdayaH kramasha UnaguNAH shatAMshAH || 1\.14||

Gist: Hari is the bimba for Vayu; Vayu is the bimba for Shesha and Garuda; Garuda, Shesha, Rudra are the bimba for Indra, kAma; the lesser ones are pratibimba-s of Indra and Kama. They in turn become pratibimba for R^ishhi-s according to gradation.

I have read in BSB

MT: Some general info -- I am told that in the samanvayadhyaya,the seven tAtparya linga-s[upakrama etc.,] are used to show that all shabda-s denote Vishnu only - The adhyaya is so arranged into four categories:

1. anyatra prasiddha nAmatmaka pAda:

dealing with 'names' used for other entities such as gayatri, AkAsha etc., refer to Vishnu in its primary sense.

2. anyatra prasiddha liN^gAtmaka pAda:

shabda dealing with all the 'dharma-s/kArya-s present in this world denotes Vishnu.

3. ubhayatra prasiddha nAma-liN^gAtmaka pAda:

The shabda-s dealing with 'names' and dharma-s common to both Vishnu and also others, like bhUmA, axara, dreaming etc., denote Vishnu.

4. anyaytraiva prasiddha nAma-liN^gAtmaka pAda:

Shabda/kArya-s popularly referring to others refer Vishnu only like jyotishhToma, prakR^iti etc.].

Vishnu is the primary meaning of everything however,in the day to day life, we use the meaning contexualy -- based on rUDhi, mahA-rUDhi, yoga, yoga-rUDhi, gauNi etc.

and Tait.Up. bashya and understand that Annamaya, Manomaya, Vijnanamaya, Pranamaya, and Anandamaya are in fact Paramatma. The purvapaksha says that these are merely 'koshas' of the body. If they are not merely koshas and are infact Paramatma, how do these koshas interact with our dehas/shariras.

MT: Hope the following may be of some help.

The sharIra has these kosha-s and Bhagavan pervadesand regulates these jaDa vastu-s -- without Him nothing functions.

"na R^ite tvatkriyate .... (R^ik.saMhita, 10.112.9 quoted in BSB 2.2.1.4)

Bhagavan pervades the annamaya kosha [which is jaDa] withHis "Annamaya" guNa as Aniruddha. Similarly, with His otherrUpa-s as Pradyumna, SaN^karshaNa, Vasudeva and NarayaNa pervades the other jaDa kosha-s and regulates them thr' the tatvAbhimAni-s[both devata-s and daitya-s!].

Btw, there is a narration in the Chandogya # 6.6 and 7 asto how the three Prime gods Laxmi, Brahma/Vayu and Rudra control the day to day functions our sharIra.

The "anna" that we eat is controlled by Rudra who divides it into three parts -- uttama part goes to the working of the manas; madhyama goes as flesh andadhama as waste/excreted.

The "prANa" controlled by Vayu, divides the liquid into 3 parts -- the grossest one goes as waste/excreted;madhyama goes into blood and the subtle one gives"prANa"/breath.

The "tejas" controlled by Laxmi again divides into three-- supreme one enters as vAk/veda; middle one as bone marrow and lowest one as bone.

If they are part of our shariras, how do rishis and those that perform severe penance overcome Annamaya,and Pranamaya (by Sri Hari's grace overcome hunger and breath).

By the grace of God, aparoxins could get complete indriya jaya.

HKAS_03-23 vyApti saMdhi

I want to know which drives us to be in moha of certain guna. Is it maya?

MT: Based on the unchangeable svabhAva/yogyata/guNa of the jIva,and its past karma-s, Bhagavan [thr' His consort prakR^iti] gives us this sharira and based on these, prakR^iti with her triguNa-s influence our indriya-s accordingly.

The jIva from anAdikAla broadly has two deadly covering sand when it comes into sR^ishhTi, it is controlled by mAyalaxmi by the grace of Mayi [Shri Hari.]

Sri LaxminArayaNa is 'sitting' very close to the jIva but yet these two layers prevent it from seeing Him. One layer is called svagunAchchAdika [Dasaru/HKS calls thisas jIvachchAdika] which is tAmasa prakR^iti and prevents the jIva from knowing its own nature. The second one is paramAchchAdika which is rajas prakR^iti which prevents the jIva from knowing the Bhagavan who is so close to it.The grace of Bhagavan alone can destroy both these layers and when He does this the j~nAni gets the sAxAtkAra/ God vision and all his Agami and sanchita karma gets burnt.In the bhAgavata, 10th skanda 94th adhyaya deals with the last one eighth part of PraLaya. This adhyaya is popularly known as shruti-gItA. [Acharya quotes [10.94.13] jyoti-saMhita which says during this praLaya, Laxmi/prakR^iti,

manifests in shruti rUpa and does stotra of Bhagavan. Just like one uses many names to refer padma/flower etc, same way Laxmi also goes by all these names.

In 10.94.14, Acharya quotes Maha-tattva viveke which says [other than Hari] prakR^iti refers primarily to Laxmi and in a secondary sense refers to Brahmani, Uma etc. Of all the ones that go by the name prakR^iti, the two dangerous ones [which are under the control of Laxmi] are svaguNAchhadika [= jIvachhAdika] and paramAchchAdika which covers the svarUpa-deha from anAdikAla . She prays the Lord to show His grace on the jIva-s and start sR^ishhTi and destroy the svaguNachchAdika and drive away the paramAchchAdika and bestow moxa to [sAttvika] jIva-s.

"...svaguNachchhAdikAM hatvA paramAchchhAdikAM paraH | vyAghuTya..." iti mahA-tattvaviveke

Then maya is a jada vasthu created by Parabrahma. How can a jada vasthu has a hold on chetana.

MT: Whenever such jaDa is referred, it means its abhimAni devata

[BS 2.1.3.7].

Is it our karma? then at what stage / in what way Para brahman make us do karma having sarva kartutva / being a sarva kartari so that it actualise in phala or the lack of it..........Is it our desire to succumb to certain guna..... Which makes man have certain guna - Jeeva's karma ; Lord's maya ; Jeeva's icche; ..How one gains svarupa yogyatha...

MT: You are asking for the entire siddhanta in one posting!

Just a few points:

jIva-s are 100% dependent on Bhagavan. It is compared to a bird tied to a peg [peg=Bhagavan, rope=abhimAni devata]. Bhagavan is the 'doer' and realization of this helps the jIva escape from the cycle of birth and death.Karma-s are anAdi and present like the shaktirUpa inside a seed -- like the seed having the potential to become a tree though one doesn't see where it is. Karunya of Bhagavan is to 'plant the seeds' and nurture it to bring out their true colors. Like a gardener, He doesn't interfere with the nature of the seed.Our indriya-s fall a pray to all vishayas [like shabda, sparsha,rupa, rasa etc.]. Kama/desire [other than God related] is the deadliest since kalanemi asura is the abhimani daitya for that.

Acharya [gIta tAtparya 3.38 ??] compares how it affects three different jIva-s:

For uttama jIva-s the bad prakR^ita desire[Kama]acts as a dhUma/smoke covering the fire -- with some effort it can be easily removed.

For madhyama-s, it is like the dirt on the mirror --needing some effort.

For adhama-s it is like the hard layer which keeps the fetus tied up in the garbha!

MT: Sri Laxmi nArayaNa is 'sitting' very close to the jIva but yet these two layers prevent it from seeing Him. One layer is called svagunAchchAdika [Dasaru/HKS calls this as jIvachchAdika] which is tAmasa prakR^iti and prevents the jIva from knowing its own nature. The second one is paramAchchAdika which is rajas prakR^iti which prevents the jIva from knowing the Bhagavan who is so close to it.

SK: Do these two layers have any abhimani devathas so that when we pray to these and the indwelling Narayana showers grace thru them or we need to pray to Lakshmi (controller of these two sheaths)and the indwelling Narayana.

MT: Laxmi, in her shrI, bhU and durga rUpa-s, is the main abhimAnifor this. In the secondary level, Sarasvati/Bharathi are itsabhimAnini devata-s.

MT:

Our indriya-s fall a pray to all vishayas [like shabda, sparsha, rupa, rasa etc.]. Kama/desire [other than God related]is the deadliest since kalanemi asura is the abhimani daitya for that.

SK:

Is this kalanemi different from the one killed in krishnavathara?

MT: The kalanemi of Krishnavatara is an avatara of *the* Kalanemi.Like devata-s, daitya-s also have many avatara-s/janma-s, andbahu-rUpa dhAraNe.

In MBTN 11.183.ff, Acharya gives a description of this asuraKalanemi -- During the deva-asura war, Kalanemi gets a boonfrom Chaturmukha[as per the orders of Bhagavan 11.186] that heshould never be killed by anyone. Armed with this boon, thiskalanemi with 1000 heads and 2000 shoulders[11.186] fightswith devata-s who had one hundred mahA-axohiNi-s. Varuna,Agni all get trapped by the magic of the asura Sambasura andeven Indra gets defeated by the powerful Viprachitti[mUlarUpaof Jarasandha]. Vayu defeats Viprachitti and Bhagavan with Hischakra kills Kalanemi. Chaturmukha prays Bhagavan to takeKrishnavatara and kill this daitya Kalanemi[born as Kamsa] whois born in the family of Bhoja-s with boons from Rudra.

Like devata-s, daitya-s also do their 'sAdhana' through differentdeha-s. Kalanemi is the mUlarUpa of that daitya, and he is # 4in the daitya tAratamya! Kalipatni Alaxmi is # 2, and Viprachiti[who takes avatara as Jarasandha] is # 3.

Why should anything other than God to be so deadliest?

MT: Bhagavan as antaryami has given powers [thr' Vayu] to these daitya-sto do their sAdhana -- what we see outside is present inside as well.Every indriya [except prANa] has tattvAbhimAni devata-s AND tattvAbhimAnidaitya-s. Bhagavan has 'placed' them ALL in our deha -- they remain in the 'idle mode' in our aniruddha deha and they do their vyApAra/activity in our sthUla-deha, HKS 9.15 [thr' indriya-s] and give preraNe to us [HKS 18.38]. Who dominates depends on our karma, yogyata etc., and as such the result also goes majorly to them, and we get only a fraction-- even this little good/bad is enough to give one atleast ten births for every janma we take [kR^ishhNamR^ita-mahArNava].

In our sampradaya, we do dyana of the Pradyumna nAmaka Shri Hari/NarayaNa residing in the shaT.h koNa vAyu maNDala of our nAbhi and pray Him daily to drive away these pApa purushha-s [HKS 8.4] and among other things take the main arati with that anusandAna.

Why Lord makes it so difficult for us jeevas which even compel Laxmi to pray for Him.?

MT: Bhagavan doesn't need her prayer/request to help us out.It is the nature of Laxmi to constantly pray Him, and He makes it happen thr' her and gives her the joy.

In the midst many auditors crowding me in the form of tattvabhimani devathas and even in the midst of them and Narayana in dwelling in me I tend to go astray.

MT: Even mano niyAmaka Rudra came under the grip of asuravesha due to prArabdha!

We don't know our svarUpa yogyata, past or future birth etc., but in this birth, at this stage of our life, He has given us some desire to know about Him. We have to take this itself as a great wealth and make the most of it.

My faith is that when one makes a serious start, Bhagavan, who has given that sat preraNa, will guide further.

Why in his creation only few are sathvik and God loved ones.

MT: That depends on the time frame -- the yuga-s.

Also note asura-s [those who find joy in indriya sukha-s] are always greater in number and Acharya calls Asura-s a 'crowd' and bhAgavata tells us to stay away from such crowd.

It perhaps is the case that Sudarshana Chakra is always used against yogya jiivas.

MT: I don't think so -- MBTN mentions that in the deva-asura war prior to the birth of Kamsa, Kalanemi who is a tamo yogya jIva gets killed by the chakra.

Also, narakAsura, # 9 in the daitya tAratamya, gets killed by the chakra

There is no jIva-dvaya in these two cases.

The fact that people such as Hiranyakashipu were former devotees is stated.

MT: I am confused -- are you referring to Jaya in Hiranyakashipu?

From what I understand, Dasaru in his HKS says that Hiranyakashipu is a top ranking daitya and comes next to Narakasura in the daitya tAratamya.

MT: The only difference is that there is a good soul residing in Hiranyakashipu's body.

Daitya tAratamya [HKS 30.13]

kAlanemige paJNchaguNdiM kILu madhukaiTabharu janmava

tALi iLleyoLu haMsaDibikAvyayadi karesidaru

aiLa nAmaka viprachitti sa mALuvenipa hiraNyakashipu

shUlapANiya bhakta narakage shathaguNAdhamanu

Are you referring to Jaya in Hiranyakashipu?

Acharya says: `uktaM cha teshhAM pUrvabhaktatvam.h' ("their former devotee-ness is stated"), and this is in the context of discussing Hiranyakashipu, the born person who was an incarnation of Jaya and the father of Prahlada.

MT: My understanding is that it is jIva-dvaya case -- birth of two people in one body.

The Hiranyakashipu who is an asura had taken control of Jaya's body (much as, e.g., Karna who was an incarnation of Surya was under the control of Narakasura resident in his body).

MT: There is a big difference between Karna's case and Hiranyakashipu. In Karna, there is only one jIva in that deha meaning, only sUryahas abhimAna for that *particular* deha but it has the avesha / temporary force/special influence of others like Sri Hari, Narakasura and Sahasravarma. So much so, when Karna dies, only one jIva escapes [i.e.,leaves abhimAna for that deha] from that body. Whereas, in the body of born Hiranyakashipu, there are two *jIva-s* -- the mUla rUpa daitya who is also called Hiranyakashipu, and Jaya, the good one co-exist.When born Hiranyakashipu dies, two jIva-s get liberated from that particular body. When Prahlada prays [i.e., after Bhagavan insists that he should ask for a boon] to save the soul of his father, Bhagavan says that there is no need to ask as his 'father' [meaning Jaya] is guaranteed to get mukti.

A good soul was under the influence of the asura who caused him> to do terrible things, rather than an asura being controlled by a good soul -- to my knowledge, the latter never happens.

MT: Well, the asura-s may not be fully controlled by devata-s but, Acharya in his BTN 11.3.49 quotes Brahmatarka which reads: [btw,I don't understand this fully but still quote!]

"asurANAM sukhAdyAshcha devAveshAdudIritAH"

Whatever sukha/good an asura gets is due to the suravesha and thephala goes to devata-s only[??].

Any way, my point was that 'avesha' is different from jIva-dvaya.In the latter, there is no *special influence* but just one jIva is dormant at a time meaning only one jIva has abhimAna for that sharira at any given time -- similar to four jIva-s in draupadi[?]

In MBTN we see lot of characters having special avesha but only ahandful have this "jiva-dvaya". In case of other jiva-dvaya-slike Shishupala, Putana, Kamsa, Ravana there is no problem as these'born body names' do not represent any deva or daitya as such.

Narakasura had also been given a special weapon by his father Vishnu (at Bhudevi's urging), and had passed it on to a friend (Somadatta?) who employed it against Arjuna; Krishna stood up in the chariot and received the weapon on His chest, saving Arjuna from certain destruction.

MT: Time and time again, Arjuna gets saved by Krishna!

Actually it is Bhagadatta [MBTN 26.25], who is none other than Kubera is born to Narakasura with the avesha of Shiva, inherits the unique Vishnu astra which comes with a boon that it will not spare anyone on whom Narakasura / Bhagadatta aim.

When Arjuna confronts Bhagadatta, Krishna receives the astra and it turns into Vaijayanthi mala. To a bewildered Arjuna, He explains again about His forms etc., and orders Arjuna to finish off Bhagadatta.

My understanding is that Acharya added another meaning to Karna having asura avesha and siding with the Kauravas. In his previous birth as Sugriva, he had done too much sadhana and this needed to be leveled off.

MT: I have not seen such an explanation in his mahAbhArata-tAtparya-nirNaya.

As for Karna, Acharya mentions:

MBTN # 11.149-52

sa tatra jaj~nivAn.h svayaM dvitIyarUpako vibhuH |

savarmadivyakuNDalo jvalanniva svatejasA || 11\.149||

purA sa vAlimAraNaprabhUtadoshhakAraNAt.h |

sahasravarmanAminA.asureNa veshhTito.ajani || 11\.150||

yathA grahairvidUshhyate matirnR^iNAM tathaiva hi |

abhUchcha daityadUshhitA matirdivAkarAtmanaH || 11\.151||

tathA.api rAmasevanAddhareshcha sannidhAnayuk.h |

sudarshanIyakarNataH sa karNanAmako.abhavat.h || 11\.152||

Gist:

Surya himself is born in another rUpa with knowledge etc.

In his previous birth, he committed the sin of killing Vali [higher in status], so the asura named sahasravarma possesses Karna.

When ghosts possess humans, their mind gets corrupted totally similarly Karna's mind was influenced by Sahasravarma.

Because he served Rama, he had the special presence of Sri Hari in him.

Is Paramatma the one who decides who gets the sadhana leveled off or is it Mukhyaprana (or another devatha)?

MT: In general, MukhyaprANa, who is the jIva/ svarUpAbhimAni, keeps the tally of all our karma-s, and as per the command of Bhagavan, he gives appropriate preraNa through devata-s and daitya-s in our nADi.

Also does the daitya that is inserted with the jiva depend on the daitya taratamya proportional to the amount of sadhana that was done (in excess) or is it arbitrary?

MT: I don't see any such thing being specifically mentioned in the MBTN.

The way I understand is that in our 72,000 "nADi-s" in the deha,devata-s and daitya-s reside and influence our mind etc., based on one's past karma etc.

I was given to understand that 'Sahasrakavacha' (and not sahasravarma) was a daithya who has been killed by Nara/Narayana except for one kavacha which took birth as Karna in Dwapara.

MT: They are one and the same soul but Acharya refers him as Sahasravarma.

purA sa vAlimAraNaprabhUtadoshhakAraNAt.h |

sahasravarmanAminA.asureNa veshhTito.ajani || 11\.150||

If I am not mistaken Sri Adamar Swamiji-s, while lecturing on MBTN, mentionedthat "varma" means Kavacha. During the battle with Nara/Narayana in the svayambhu manvantara, Sahasravarma loses his 999 kavacha-s and escapes with one and this Sahasravarma takes control of Karna.

Shree Madhva being the incarnation of Shree Anjaneya and Shree Akshobhaya Thirtha, being Rudra Amshi, was the deciple of Shree Madhva.This is just one of the situations where Shree Rudra is disciple of Shree Vayu.

MT: Rudra known as Ugratapa in the previous Brahma Kalpa, studied under the current Vayu who was LAtavya R^iju then.Acharya in his Anu vyAkhyAna 4th Adhyaya, 1st pAda:

liN^gAllAtavyataH pUrvamR^ijorbrahmatvataH shatAt.h |

shushrAvogratapA nAma yogyo rudrapadasya yaH || 4||

"Rudrapada yogya Ugratapa did shravaNa from Brahmapada yogyaLAtavya R^iju for 75 [Brahma]years with devotion and constant zeal about the great qualities of Lord Vishnu. By keeping his mind steadfast in the goal to be pursued, he did upAsana for a third of duration (25 Brahma years)".

In HKS, 23rd sandhi (aparoxa tAratamya sandhi), 42nd stanza:

pAdanUna shatAbda pariyantodi ugratapAhvayadi lavaNodadhiyoLage

kalpadasha tapaviddanantaradi | sAdhisida mahadeva padavAraidu

navakalpAvasAnake aiduvanu sheshhana padava pArvatisahitavAgi ||

For 75 Brahma years [of prior kalpa], the jIva [that became Rudra] known as Ugratapa studied under Vayudeva, and did severe/ugra tapas for ten kalpa-s and then acquired the status of "mahadeva" position.At the end of this kalpa, he will acquire the Shesha's position along with Parvati.

He also provides all tools [shAstra-s] but His grace alone can help the jIva to get rid of all the shackles and reach moxa.

This sentence looks very discouraging. It puts ones sadhana to back burner. Keeping a conjunction - 'but' in the sentence above makes one (who want to do sadhana - shastradyayana and shravana, manana, nidhidhyasana,) vulnerable as finally what all he do, the primary motive is to wait for his krupa. Being a dependent jeevas we have nothing to do except have him in>> our mind and wait.

From the looks of it though it is discouraging it attaches high importance to Lord's sarva swatantratva. We cannot make Him to give darshana and He shows himself to whom he chooses. The likes of Prahlada, Dhruva have got(not 'won' although) His grace thru bhakthi and sadhana Acharya, in his MBTN 1.77 quotes mundaka upanishad 3.2.3 [also KaThopanishad 1.2.23] to drive home the point that His grace alone is the final deciding factor.

"yamevaishha vR^iNute tena labhyastasyaishha AtmA vivR^iNute tanuM svAm.h" || 1.77|| ...etc.

KR: I think the original objection raised is "It is discouraging (and also not fair) that God's grace takes precedence over one's sAdhana in obtaining the Aparoxa of the Lord and eventual moxa". In an attempt to tackle the objection, "high importance to Lord's sarva swatantratva" was mentioned. In an answer to that more quotes were given to show that it is only God's grace that matters and not one's sAdhana. However the starting premise was that anyway.(that only God's grace matters).The question was not which one takes precedence, but rather granting that God's grace takes precedence, is it not discouraging?(since it is immaterial what one's sAdhana is.) Both the points namely "high importance to Lord's sarva swatantratva" and proof for "god's grace alone matters" do not address the objection.

I will attempt to answer it in two phases.

1. It is not at all discouraging and if anything, it is really encouraging that God's grace alone matters. Why? Let us take a hypothetical situation - say "it is only sAdhana (or one's karma) that matters."

It is not hard to see that every ordinary jIva commits so many mistakes in the long journey of many janmas. Actually prArabdha karma (what one is destined to go thru for what is committed)is so small compared to the "big pile of sanchita (what is earned)". Now as per the starting assumption (only one's karma matters), there won't be any relief in the perceivable future.If one complains that the picture now itself is very gloomy,just imagine how much more gloomy it will be (if only karma matters or it takes precedence).

On the other hand, the way it is, it is very encouraging.In other words, if God's grace alone matters, He will give a long rope and because of His unimaginable compassion.He ignores many mistakes of His devotees and does a great favor to His devotees.

2. The objection is itself a moot point, as it is meaningless to put them on two sides of a balance. They do not counter each other. Why? God's grace is not a random function. Based on sAdhana and more importantly the anusandhAna, God will help His devotees reach Aparoxa and eventual moxa, even if it were a long journey. One thing to remember at all times is that He is sarvaguNasampUrNa (infinite in auspicious qualities) and sarvdosha vivarjita (totally flawless). So, while His compassion and fairness are infinite, He is also free from the flaws like vaishamya and nairghR^iNya (partiality and cruelty).

One of the dAsarapadas goes like this:

"haribhaktanAdava tiLidu pApava mADuvudilla; tiLiyademADidare hariyu eNisuvudilla".

"The devotee of Sri Hari does not commit a sin knowingly;even if he does unknowingly the Lord ignores it".

"To the aprAkR^ita jIva, ParamAtma provides prAkr^ita guNa-s and ahaMkAra, mama etc.. and leaves them in the ocean of saMsAra. To cross this ocean we certainly need the kAruNya of ParamAtma." does this mean that Main Jiva inside the deha is not prAkr^ita.. ?? if so then the moola Svarupa of the Jiva is also not prAkr^ita.. ??

Please explain this in simple terms. I am bit confused in this area..

MT: jIva is non-different from its svarUpa/svabhAva. It is aprAkR^ita-- meaning it is NOT made of perishable elements like earth, water,heat, air and space. It is j~nAna and Ananda chaitanyamaya [tAmasajIva's are dukha and aj~nAna maya]. There is no death or destruction of any kind to the jIva. Bhagavan protects this eternal and beginningless nature of the jIva. Thus even in moxa, the jIva is dependent on Bhagavan.

From beginningless time jIva has been trapped in the prakR^ita perishable invisible cage called linga deha. However, it is dormant and unaware of its own existence. For this linga deha,the all compassionate Bhagavan gives 'birth' by providing another layer of perishable prAkR^ita gross 'body' with awareness and action etc. He also provides all tools [shAstra-s] but His grace alone can help the jIva to get rid of all the shackles and reach moxa.

HKAS Bhojana Sandhi 04-21

trinavati svarUpAtmakaniru

ddhanu sadA yajamAnanAgi

ddanala yama sOmAdi pitR^idEvatEgaLige anna

nenipanA pradyumna saMkaru

ShaNa vibhAgava mADikoM

DuNipa nityAnaMda bhOjanadAyi tuRyAhva……….HKAS_04-21

trinavati = 92

SvarUpAtmaka = His own 92 rUpa-s

KT: I guess it is a typo -- should be 93

Just some brief way of denoting the deeper meanings of the verse # 21

YajamAna = The person, who performs the pitR^ikAryas. He does in the form of a worship).

YajamAna = The indwelling Lord inside Him (as a controller)

When a person performs the pitR^ikAryas and offers naivedya to the pitR^is (devatas) thru anala (God of fire), yama and soma, the Lord also in His 93 forms passes on the essence of the offerings (punyaphala). Those pitR^idevata-s bless our ancestors and those who perform the pitR^ikarya-s.

Before we proceed, let us look at a hypothetical question. What if a person does not do pitR^ikAryas? Then God does not give or pass on the essence to the pitR^idevata-s? It is not so. God has His own ways anyway and He gives His blessings to them, but no benefits will be passed on to the humans (as they did not perform any kArya-s).

The humans offer the gross form of food. The Lord passes on the essence of that food (punyarUpa or in the form of punya) to the gods and pitR^idevatas and then as indweller of them receives and partakes the essence of essence as a lIlakArya only, though He does not need any of that.

pitR^idevata-s as controllers of

pitr^is(parents) - pitAmahas(grand p.) - prapitAmahas(g.g.p.)

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Anala Yama Soma

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Ashtavasus (8) Ekadashrudras (11) dvAdashAdityas (12)

While Aniruddha as antaryAmi of the performer starts the distribution process, the essence that goes to the 31 devatas (8+11+12) above gets subdivided into 3 (vaikarika/tattvabhimani devata-s Taijasa/indriyabhimani, and Tamasa/panchabhuta abhimani) by the Lord's 3 forms Pradyumna, Sankarshana and Vasudeva (Here Vasudeva is referred as Turya). Thus 31 X 3 = 93.

In the above matrix, the first line is 3 pitR^i parts and the 2nd and 3rd line is 6 devatA parts (totalling 9 matrix elements).

Thus the Lord gives the Ananda bhojana to various beings as per their requirement.

We have to meditate upon the Lord's antaryAmi forms in all the above devatas and pitR^i-s

HKAS Bhojana Sandhi 04-22

ShaNNavatinAmakanu vasu mU

kkaNNa bhAskararoLage niMtu pra

panna ranudina niShkapaTa sadbhaktiyali mALpa

puNya kaRmava svIkarisi kA

ruNya sAgaranA pitR^igaLige

gaNya sukhavittavara porevanu ella kAladali...HKAS_04-22

KT: Based on Shri Odeyaru, PancharatnaprakAshika, VSN etc., some more info:

In the above verse, Aniruddha is also known as Shannavati

(96 Form One). His 96 forms = 31 X 3 + Anan + Yama + Soma.

The Lord protects all the above 96, not only as being their anatryAmi, but also being the antaryAmi of the 96 time events in one year as the shrAddha requirement.

There are 14 Manvantaras in one Brahmadina. Thus there are 14 starting days (Manvadis).

There are 4 yugas and so 4 yugadis (Yuga starting days)

There are 15 days in mahAlaya (pitR^ipaxa)

mEShAdiparvakAla-s 12 (corresponding to 12 rAshis,

also known as sankramana-s).

amAvAsya-s 12

vyatIpAta-s 13

vaidhR^iti-s 13

(VyatiPata-s and vaidhR^iti-s are special kind of yoga-s).

tisrAShTaka-s 12 (Krishnapaxa Saptami, Ashtami and Navami

of MArgashira, Pushya, MAgha, and PhalguNa)

The actual day of leaving the body of the person (1)

TOTAL = 96 (14+4+15+12+12+13+13+12+1)

What is to be noted is that the Lord is present in all these in a special way with those names. Some ex. of how to understand those names are:

He is the Adi (kAraNa) of Manus and so He is Manvadi.

He is the root of Yugas and so YugAdi.

He brings over MahA Laya (Great Deluge) and so He is Mahalaya.

He makes everything reach proper destinations (samyak kramati) and so He is sankramaNa).

That which can be measured is "mA". He can not be measured and so He is "amA".

He is vyatIpAta (vi + ati + pAta = visheshheNa atItya pAti) = He protects all being beyond the reach of all.

He has Vishehha dhR^iti or dhairya and so He is "vaidhR^iti".

"mi" = j~nAna.

sapta = seven, Ashta = eight and nava = new.

He is known (to a limited extent) by our sAdhana using this body of 7 dhAtus and we know Him thru

His 8 vyApAras (creation, sustenance, annihilation, Control, cause of knowledge, cause of ignorance,

cause of Bandha, and cause of moxa). Still the knowledge about Him is ever new. Thus He is saptami, ashtami and navami.

HKAS Vibhuti Sandhi 05-01

shrItaruNivallabhana paramavi

bhUtirUpava kaMDa kaMDa

lIteradi chiMtisuta manadali nODu saMbhramadi

nIta sAdhAraNa vishESha sa

jAti naijAhitavu sahaja vijAti

khaMDAkhaMDa bagegaLanaritu budhariMda..HKAS_05-01

KT: What is vibhUti? It is vishishhTA bhUti = aishvarya anayA

bhUti = The power due to which, one becomes equipped with aishvarya (richness of high order, not just materialistic wealth). From Prameya dIpika (10th adhyAya)

dvividhaM vibhUtirUpaM | pratyaxaM tirohitaM cha |vishhNvAdikaM pratyaxaM |

Vibhuti is of 2 kinds - Pratyaxa and tirohita.

VishNu and other forms are pratyaxa. Tirohita vibhUti

is also called "guptavibhUti".

kapilavyAsakR^ishhNAdyaM pratyaxaM vaibhavaM smR^itaM

(Kapila, Vyasa, Krishna and others are known as Pratyaxa vaibhava.)

The ones given in the original posting is one version.

The alternate version as given in VishNu rahasya is also given below.

nIta = indestructible vibhUti

KT: svaabhinnatve api mUlAt pR^ithaN~nayanAt.h nItaH matsyAdiH |

Though non-different from mUlarUpa, Matsya, etc. are known as nIta.

sAdhAraNa = pervading in taru (tree) vihagAdi

KT: sAdhAraNam sarvajIvajaDa sAdhAraNagam

The God's forms that normally are present in all sentient and non-sentient beings are known as sAdhAraNa.

vishESha = in pR^ithu, aRjuna, balarAma,

KT: vishEShaM brahmAdigaM

The God's forms present in Brahma and the like are vishESha.

sajAti = similar vibhUti pervading in mikti yOgya manuShya, gaMdhaRva-s

KT: sajAtIyaM shakra, ushanA arjunaadyantarvarti

The God's forms present in Indra, shukra, Arjuna and the like are sajAtIya.

naija = vibhUti pervading dEvata-s who have obtained aparOxa, pervading in rUpa-s of R^iShi-s

KT: naijaM shAlagrAmagaM

The God's forms present in shAlagrAma are naija.

ahitavu = vibhUti pervading in jaDa pratima-s, pilgrimage places

KT: AhitaM svayamvyaktaM

The God's forms present in pratimAs as svayaMvyakta (when

AvAhana is made) are Ahita (not ahita).

sahaja = vibhUti pervading in svyaMvyakta rUpa-s

KT: sahajaM laxmaNa balAdigaM

The God's forms present in Laxmana and Balarama are sahaja.

vijAti = vibhUti pervading in different types of things

KT: vijAtirUpaM shashigaM

The God's forms present in the moon are vijAti.

khaMDa = in part

khaNDaM bAlachandragaM

The God's forms present in crescent moon are khaNDa.

akhaMDa = as a whole

KT: akhaNDaM senAvanAdigaM

The God's forms present in the army, forests, gardens are

akhaNDa.

My query is to how Lord's vibhuti is 'ahita' and how to interpret the word 'ahita' in the context of it being opposite to the word 'hita'.

From the online Monier-Williams Sanskrit Dictionary:

The word 'hita' also means:

1. sent , impelled , urged on , set in motion &c.

2. running , speeding RV. AV.

So, while hita can be taken to mean something that moves, ahita is its opposite i.e. achala.

KT: This gives rise to contextual problems and also it is losing the nice meaning that should have been there. The original verse is

HKAS Vibhuti Sandhi 05-05

shrIramaNa pratimegaLoLage hadi

mUradhikavAgippa mElai

nUru rUpava dharisi ippanu ahitAchaladi

dArumathanava gaiye pAvaka

tOruvaMte pratIka suraroLu

tOrutippanu tattadAkAradali nOLparige...HKAS_05-05

Something must have crept in the commentary of Sri Odeyaru. It cannot be "ahitAchaladi" for both syntactic and semantic reasons. If "ahita" means "achala" then "ahitAchaladi" will be "achalAchaladi", which does not give proper meaning. Secondly, the chandas (meter or prosody) does not fit. The correct pATha should have been "AhitAchaladi".

In this light the first verse also carries the same. naijAhitavu in

shrItaruNivallabhana paramavi

bhUtirUpava kaMDa kaMDa

lIteradi chiMtisuta manadali nODu saMbhramadi

nIta sAdhAraNa vishESha sa

jAti naijAhitavu sahaja vijAti

khaMDAkhaMDa bagegaLanaritu budhariMda..HKAS_05-01

has to be split as naija + Ahitavu.

The other corrections of first verse is posted separately.

"Ahita" means brought in or placed. In other words, we do AvAhana in "jaDapratimas". Then Sri Hari becomes svayamvyakta in those. This is what is Ahita and it is not "ahita" or "hita rahita".

tOruvaMte = the way it appears.

Depending on the rubbing strength, the fire producing wooden sticks, when rubbed against each other show up the fire hidden inside, sameway based on the yogyata and adhikAra of the person performing the pUja, the Lord inside the Vayu, who is inside the devatas, who are inside the pratIkas or pratimas will appear bright in that shape, form and sound (tadAkAra, tadrUpa, tadvAchya).

HKAS_05-04 vibhUti saMdhi

I have long had unresolved issues with respect to saligrama puja.

MT: I think there is no 'li/Li' in shALagrAma

It should be either shAlagrAma [according to HKS# 5.4 and vulgate reading as well]or sALagrAma according to Shri Hrushikesha Tirtha [Source -- Sarvamula by ABMM ].

The meaning is the same for all these spellings.

In traditional Madhva households, women are not allowed to touch saligramas (except sudarshanas).

MT: As far as I know, in mAdhva households only the person who does the mahapuje touches the ShAlagrAma. There should be some purpose for touching the ShAlagrAma or for that matter any puje item.

Why should a women touch a ShAlagrAma and what is the purpose -- what do they get by touching it?

This is nIta vibhUti rUp. shAligrAma-s do not need any special invocation at all. Their purity would not be tainted even by chaMDala spaRsha. when we know saligramas are pure and beyond contamination.

MT: Note that the procedure etc., applies to the person doing puje and not to the ShAlagrAma.

What this means is -- The sannidana is nitya so no procedure is needed to invoke Bhagavan in the shAlagrAma -- whereas for a manmade icon for worship, certain rules and procedures have to be done to invoke the sannidana [as mentioned in the Tantra saara S].

Now, as I understand it, this practice of women-not-touching-saligramas is localized to the

Madhva community and not to Iyers or Iyengars.

MT: After upanayana, a person who wants to touch the sALagrAma for worship will have to learn the correct puja paddhati [including chanting of sukta-s] from his elders/guru and follow it with understanding. A woman doesn't have vedadhikara to do all these.

pitR^i-s are children of devata-s and they are of many kinds. Is these pitris are different from what I have in my mind - i.e., a la my father, grand father etc.,

MT: Yama, Chandra and Kavyava[Agni]present in the departed souls are the pitrupathi-s whom we worship on all these days. Pitru puje is done to these devata-s with the prayer to protect the departed souls and bless our progeny.

Why we reach pitru loka. Is it due to papa karma or due to punya karma or is it a normalcy.

MT: Depends on the kind of punya karma.

If it is due to punya karma then do we first go to naraka and then to pitru loka or vice versa.

MT: I am not sure where we go first! -- have heard that we first go to naraka.

There are broadly two mArga-s -- one for those who return back to samsara and other for those who have no return. This has been discussed in BSB 4.2. and the next pAda.

The soul departs along with a part of pancha bhUta-s and tanmatra-s. Those who have done good deeds like community work ityadi exit thr' the daxanAyana nADi. There are 50 daxinAyaNa nADi-s and 50 uttarayaNa nADi in the deha.[ayaNa here means rays of the [internal]sun which illuminates the interior of the nADi-s and this has nothing to do with death during daxiNayana parvakala]. They take the daxanAyana mArga presided by Bharati [cf. shatprashna] and go to dhUma loka, dina loka, Krishnapaxaloka etc., before reaching pitruloka, and finally to Somaloka[Chan. 5.10.2ff]. This is the last stop for these jIva-s who have to return back, and once they exhaust these ashvara/anitya/ temporary punya they are kicked out of this place and descend either by the same route or different one depending on their pApa. There are sufferings/ dukha in these path as well.

The aparoxs j~nAni-s who have exhausted their prArabdha karma and go to upper world beyond janaloka exit thr' the uttaryaNa nADi presided by Mukhya vAyu. They take the suklapaxa route of no return to samsara.

Also there is svarga loka and how and why we reach there.

MT: Due to the Acharane of 'good' karma-s[following vidhi and nisheda]

one goes to the svarga loka [BSB 3.1.10.9-12].

Is there a division in punya that we gather here and based on the same we get to svarga / pitru loka.

MT: Yes indeed! The good nitya punya stays always with the jIva -- in general anything and everything that is done with Bhagavan as the focus and that which helps to realize the doership of Hari thr' sadagama-s is nitya punya. Every other 'good deed' is anitya and gets exhausted in all these Svarga, Chandra, pitruloka-s, and the jIva returns back to the cycle of birth and death agony.

Pls correct my understanding. Once we die, for gaining sthula deha we need anna which will be provided by our progenies in the form of pinda.

MT: Not quite -- the anna is to pitR^i devata-s who protect these departed souls. It doesn't directly help in getting the stUla deha. After exhausting the quota of pain/joy, the jIva descends back within a year and enters rain, grain cycle till it gets the right 'body'. The jIva that enters rain, grain doesn't suffer till it enters the womb of its 'mother'.

Thus with the help of pinda we reach pitru loka.

MT: The departed ancestor can be in any loka -- pitru loka is not a guaranteed place!

Note that the pitruloka is the loka of pitrugaNa devata-s. Depending on the karma, our departed ancestors can be of any 'form' and 'stay' in any of the seven places and that is one of the reasons why saptanna is kept[HKS 14.14]in pitR^i kArya[?]

What are the ill effects on a soul after death which has not given a birth for a son.

MT: There is no ill effect at all!

'Putra' is someone who saves us from the naraka called 'puth'. This term need not apply to one's son.

Acharya in his MBTN 12.18, points out even if one doesn't have children he can still get sadgati like dharmabhUshana:

ato.anyathA sutAnR^ite vrajanti sadgatiM narAH |

yathaiva dharmabhUshhaNo jagAma sandhyakAsutaH || 12\.18||

[Often people misread the passage in Mbh re Rishhi-s telling Panduraja that he can't join them to Brahma sabha etc. This is not because he didn't have sons at that time -- the purpose of his janma is to give pandava-s and neglecting that duty and going to Brahma sabha won't give sadgati to Panduraja.]

The earlier saMdhi discussed about 'datta svataMtrya' We may like to understand as to why it was called 'datta svAtaMtrya' The jIva has anAdi svataMtrya.

MT: jIva doesn't have any svAtantrya, see Gita # 5.14-15

"na kartR^itvaM na karmANi lokasya sR^ijati prabhuH...

nA.adatte kasyachit.h pApaM na chaiva sukR^itaM vibhuH"

The jIva doesn't have any svatantrya doership, nor it can give independent doership to any one. It also doesn't have svantrya in the addR^ishhTa[punya-pApa --"kriyAniShpanna dharmAdirUpakarmaNi"]

and the resulting phala.

"na kartR^itvam.h" ityAdinA | 'kriyAyAmadR^iShTotpAdane phale cha

svAtantryaM lokasya na sR^ijatIshvara' ityarthaH

Be it karma or karmaphala, the Lord does not give independent doership to jIva.

ParamAtma exists as biMba in the jIva from anAdi kAla. This svAtaMtrya comes into play during the state of mOxa.

MT: bimba pratibimba bhAva manifests fully in moxa but even here, the jIva is bhagavat adhina only.

jIva is eternally dependent on Bhagavan. muktiviveka quoted by Acharya in BTN 11.11.6:

"baddhatvaM sarvajIvAnAM niyamAnnityameva tu

baddhatvaM vishhNu adhinatvaM ..."

Just as ParamAtma gives us the triguNAtmaka jaDa dEha to enable us to perform the triguNa kARya-s, He also gives us jaDa svAtaMtrya.

MT: That is parAdhina 'svAtantrya' -- it is more like a mother who holds the laddle and lets the child use it too, giving the impression that the child is cooking. Mother never *gives* that laddle to the child.

In order to regulate the jaDa kARya-s, originally the svarUpa jIva must have ichChA. Therefore, ParamAtma gave the His svAtaMtrya (datta svAtaMtrya) to the jIva during sR^iShTi itself. Therefore

the jaDa svAtaMtrya is given to the jIva at the time of obtaining the sthUla dEha.

MT: Acharya gives an example to illustrate this:

Just like a king who lets people live in his kingdom similarly Bhagavan has let us live in this deha --

Gita tAtparya # 5.14:

'janapade nivasatAM tadvittabhojinAmapyAdhipatyAdAnAnna

dattA janapadA rAj~nA svaputrANAmitivat.h karmaphalAdi

saMyoginAmapi tatsvAtantryAdAnAt.h na sR^ijati' iti yujyate

The sons of a king, who live in the kingdom, enjoy the benefits therein. Because, the king has not given the kingdom to his sons, it is said that the king did not give the kingdom to his sons. Similarly even though the jIvas partake the fruits of the karmas, it is quite appropriate to say that the freedom for karma is not given to the jIvas.

ParamAtma regulates this 'datta svAtaMtrya' by bestowing kARya siddhi (success) according to the efforts put in by the person. If a person obtains success in his efforts as per his efforts, then it he could very well say that 'datta svataMtrya' is in action.

MT: I don't understand what "is in action" means.

In any case jIva does not have even a tiny bit of independence (or svAtantrya) either in action or its fruit.

In HKAS, I read there are 7 types of manushya jivas starting from trna jivas to manushya gandharvas.

MT: I don't think that there are 7 types of manushhya jIva-s.

There are seven types of niramsha jIva-s [HKAS 23.3] -- tR^iNa, pashu, paxi, chakravarti-s, manushya uttama-s, manushhya gandharva-s are all niramsha jIva-s. These jIva-s cannot have multiple deha at the same time.

They are described as karma yogis

MT: That applies to the in-dwelling jIva which is sUxma.

and that they take human bodies for sadhana. But how can krmis, described as insects etc., assume human bodies? Would it be suitable?

MT: Why not? Actually, karma-yogi-s need human deha for their

j~nAna sAdhana. Without j~nAna, moxa is not possible.

Also it was my assumption that gandharvas were celestial singers, always singing the praise of Lord Vishnu, so what type of sadhana can they do in a human body?

MT: Perhaps similar type of sAdhana that Indra did as Arjuna. It may be to show the right path for the bhakta-s and/or to exhaust the prArabdha karma. Any such prArabdha karma eventually turns out to be more profitable for them.

Does that mean only chakravartis, manushyottamas, manushya gandharvas fit into the manushya jiva category? Then what category are the trna, krmi, pashu and paxi jivas?

MT: My understanding is that each and everyone of them is a distinct category based on the intrinsic yogyata. The prescribed means of upAsana-s vary based on the category After the paroxa jnAna, a moxa yogya jIva does guna-upasamhara [upasana] of the Bhagavan. tR^ina jIva-s are those who have

the capacity and eligibility to do _upasana_ of only one aspect of Bhagavan known as "Atma" whereas manushhyottama-s do _upAsana_ of four guna-s of Bhagavan -- Sat, Chit, Ananda, and Atma.[aNu-bhAshhya 3.4]

But does the real form, swarupa, of the krmis resemble the insects in some way? Or, the swarupa of paxi resemble birds? I don't mean deha but the real intrinsic form of the soul.

MT: They do not have bones/flesh/antenna etc., that give distinct physical shape. The svarUpa is totally devoid of physical features.

Perhaps similar type of sAdhana that Indra did as Arjuna. It may be to show the right path for the bhakta-s and/or to exhaust the prArabdha karma. Any such prArabdha karma eventually turns out to be more profitable for them.

But will they do sadhana typical of gandharvas, if they take birth as humans? Or, will it be similar to that of humans?

MT: Most of the time they are not even aware of their mUla rUpa. They act and behave as humans [MBTN 22.273].

Also, is the mention of 1000 births just a figure of speech, just to show a large number?

MT: yes -- "bahUnAM janmanAmante j~nAnavAn.h bhavati" [Gita bhAshhya 7.19].

And as you mentioned elsewhere, sadhana starts only after 50 years of Brahma, so do I assume we've

just started our sadhana, maybe taken half a dozen births?

MT: We are in the seventh manvantara -- each manvantra consists of approx. 71 mahayuga-s so the number of janma-s must be much more.

And because we've taken birth in kali yuga, must it necessarily mean we shouldn't have taken birth in any other yuga?

MT: No, it doesn't.

Does that mean only chakravartis, manushyottamas, manushya gandharvas fit into the manushya jiva category? Then what category are the trna, krmi, pashu and paxi jivas? My understanding is that each and everyone of them is a distinct category based on the intrinsic yogyata. The prescribed means of upAsana-s vary based on the category . After the paroxa jnAna, a moxa yogya jIva does guna-upasamhara [upasana] of the Bhagavan. tR^ina jIva-s are those who have the capacity and eligibility to do upasana_ of only one aspect of Bhagavan known as "Atma" whereas manushhyottama-s do upAsana_ of four guna-s of Bhagavan -- Sat, Chit, Ananda, and Atma.[aNu-bhAshhya 3.4] . Must we then meditate on only one quality, namely atmatva? Also, does it involve thinking about it, or visualizing it?

MT: Note that I was not referring to our daily ritual of chanting/puja meditation which we do for antaH karana shuddhi. The upasana that I mentioned comes after shAstra vichara, (vishaya)vairagya, and bhagavat bhakti.

For such a upasana, following are the prerequisite:

Acharya quotes shruti which says:(Gita tAtparya 2.53)

1. mind need to be conquered with abhyaasa (practice).

2. Through the repetitive process of shAstra shravana and manana, the buddhi(intellect) which was indifferent and against to vedartha becomes tuned to its real meaning with His grace.

3. Thr' the shAstra abhyaasa, the mind which got interested in the real meaning, grasps the vedartha.

4. The buddhi/chitta becomes firm (nishchala), and doesn't get distracted by the veda-viruddha thoughts. With such a dhyana one sees the Bhagavan 'face to face'.

But does the real form, swarupa, of the krmis resemble the insects in some way? Or, the swarupa of paxi resemble birds? I don't mean deha but the real intrinsic form of the soul. They do not have bones/flesh/antenna etc., that give distinct physical shape. The svarUpa is totally devoid of physical

features. But they do have non-physical forms, right? I am assuming every attribute constitutes a certain form.

MT: Yes, they do have 'form' -- sva-deha with 'avayava-s'.

if they take birth as humans? Or, will it be similar to that of humans?

Most of the time they are not even aware of their mUla rUpa. They act and behave as humans [MBTN 22.273].

I've heard this many times, but still can't understand it. If they're not aware, then how can they do sadhana at all?

MT: For an aparoxi, everything they do is their 'sAdhana'.

Devata-s are samsha jIva-s -- having many 'bodies' at the same time to do their sAdhana. They reside in their respective 'worlds' in one form, as abhimani-s they 'reside' in chetana and achetana AND take 'aMsha-s avatara-s' to exhaust their prArabdha phala.

Also note that the aMsha Arjuna doesn't know everything about his aMshi Indra but Indra, the mUlarUpi, knows everything about his aMsha Arjuna. Arjuna's actions neither affects Indra's

abhimanittva over the chetana-achetana-s nor his lordship duties over the three worlds.

Suppose Surya doesn't know his true status, how would he act as abhimani devata for eye and sun?

MT: Note that your query was "if they take birth as humans.."

As Karna (which is his human birth), he doesn't do abhimanittva duties.

Being the abhimani devata of our eye, Surya is regulated/controlled by his superiors starting with Indra and ending with Bhagavan. Serving Bhagavan Kapila, surya in one form (rUpantara) always

remain fixed in his upasana of [the prakashatva aspect] Bhagavan which is the source of his birth, and final refuge [cf. Adityadhikaranam].

Wouldn't sadhana suffer as a result of ignorance?

MT: No -- for example, Arjuna gets to learn directly from Bhagavan which enhances his bliss in moxa and kirti in this world as mArga darshi. By his many actions his prArabdha gets destroyed too.

And as you mentioned elsewhere, sadhana starts only after 50 years of Brahma, so do I assume we've

just started our sadhana, maybe taken half a dozen births? We are in the seventh manvantara -- each manvantra consists of approx. 71 mahayuga-s so the number of janma-s must be much more. Does it always proceed in insect-bird-animal-man format, or could it also be random? From our perspective it is random only -- depends on the type and maturity of our karma phala-s.

I mean, could an insect round the corner take birth as human next time, thus jumping many places up the evolutionary ladder?

MT: For us, it can inch its way up or fall way down rapidly too -- like the snake and ladder game.

HKAS_05-19 vibhUti saMdhi

Our sharIra is the place of residence for the biMba rUpi ParamAtma. This has been compared to a 'paTTaNa' town. Madhu was a brave & powerful daitya. His younger brother was kaiTabha. Both of them are known to be the ear wax (filth) of ParamAtma. At the beginning of kalpa, when Brahma was born in the Lotus flower emanating from the navel of ParamAtma, Brahma was always troubled by these two daityas. Brahma pleaded for help from ParamAtma. ..etc. Thus our sharIra is referred as 'madhuvirOdhi paTTaNa'.

1. Is Narayana who is dosha doora has daityas in him(in the form of wax etc.). Just like his created entities have daityas and devathas in them.

2. If so how do we interpret slokas like - poorna maya poornamidam etc.,which extol him as poorna and whatever comes out of him is poorna. How do we attach dosha in him who is divya from head to toe and there is no svagata bheda in him.

KT: Actually I would like to add a few more questions and then attempt to answer all of them.

3. Where exactly were those demons born from? What are the pramANas for that?

4. If ParamAtma is aprAkR^ita and also j~nAnamaya, how can there be ear wax for Him?

5. Brahma, who is so much above them pleaded for help?

6. Where did they get their strength from?

Answers:

1. It is said that Narayana is dosha dura or flawless. How does that contradict daityas being in Him? In fact He is inside everything and everything is inside Him.

See:

http://dvaita.info/pipermail/dvaita-list_dvaita.info/2005-March/000443.html

One of the reasons for His being inside is because He is the controller (That is the concept of antaryAmi, which is a perfect way of controlling) and one of the reasons for everything else being inside him is because He is the supporter (like a pot supports the water that is inside it). Even for daityas, He is the supporter and controller. Right?

2. In fact the pUrNatva is supported because the above is the case.If the daityas are not in Him and that they are outside Him, then how is He pUrNa? Then His all-pervasiveness is itself in question. Also,He is svagata bheda vivarjita and that means there is no difference between Him and his avayavas (like eyes and ears), He and His guNas,etc. The way we can understand non-difference between Him and His avayavas is that He decides to manifest that way in loka dR^ishti. He can walk with His eyes and see with His legs, He can smell with His ears and hear with His nose, etc.

3. In HayashIrsha PanchrAtra, Lord HayagrIva says :

"tatra gharmabindurajAyata | sa padmapatramAsAdya dvidhA

bhUto yatastadA | rajastamomayau tasmAt jAtau divyau

balotkaTau | madhukaitabhanAmAnau mahAbalaparAkramau |".

"There he was born from the sweat. He reached the lotus leaf and split into two. Thus from him came out the two powerful and strong ones by name Madhu and Kaitabha."

MarkandeyapurANa says:

"mUle karNapuTAt.h". (From the opening portion of the auditory meatus [were they born])

PancharAtra says:

"karNamalAt.h" (From the cerumen or earwax or just an impure substance [were they born])

Now the issue got even more complicated.

They seem to be self-contradicting. How can all these be true?

"trayAnAM ekavAkyatAyAM | karNasambandhamUlarUpa\-

jalabindorjAtavityarthaH"

"They all have a common and consistent thought. They were born from the impure sweat near the opening portion of the ear".

If so ...

4. If ParamAtma is aprAkR^ita and also j~nAnamaya, how can there be earwax for Him? How can the Lord have sweat,auditory meatus or cerumen?

It is mAyAnirmita (It is created by His mAya orichchha). As part of His lIla, He willed to do so.None of the above things are in laukika sense.

5 and 6. Far from Brahma pleading for help, it is Brahma ,who gives them the boon at the command of the Lord. That is why they get such strength. No matter what, one must always remember that Sri Hari is independent and all others are dependent.

The core below the navel is central point for all the nADi-s. The spinal cord beginning from here connects to the brain.

No. Location kamaladaLa-s vyApAra

1 tuMdi 4 ahaMkAra manOvR^itti

2 nAbhi 6 chitta vR^itti

3 hR^idaya 8 buddhi vyApara

Yes, this is how we do the nitya dyana but...

4 urapradEsha 12 manas

5 hubbu 2 aMtaHkaraNa

does 'hubbu' mean bhrUmadhya? -- if so, the number differs in our tradition and according to Acharya[TSS 4.153], it has 4 daLa-s and not two. tALu/indrayoni is very important location[of udAnaprANa and shesha] with 2 petals, is missing in the above list.

MT: In our gross body, the main nADi called brahmanADi which runs from mUlAdhAra to shIrshha has five prabheda-s -- clockwise,they are

Arya [chintana of Aniruddha rUpa],

prakAshinI/avabhAsika [Vasudeva rUpa],

vaidyuta [Sankarshhana],

vajr(ik)a [Pradyumna] and

the center one is sushumna [Narayana].

Each of these nADi-s have a padma in each of the six xetra-s mentioned below.

Of course in our sampradaya, we do refer to the urapradesha [with one Padma] and kaNTa with one Padma [as different from tALu] as both 30 and 32 padma chintana is practised in our sampradaya however, when we do dyana of *six* main locations [i.e., 30 padma-s in the five nAdi-s of brahmanADi along with the respective manDala, colors, axara-s, abhimani devata-s with bhagavat rUpa-s] we follow Acharya's Tantrasara only. Corrections and comments welcome.

The above six locations is the place of residence for ParamAtma.

MT: The six mentioned by Acharya in his TantrasAra sangraha # 4.153

"mUle cha nAbhau hR^idayendrayonibhrUmadhyamUrghni.."

As for the kamaladaLa-s: TSS # 4.153

"chatuHshhaDashhTadvichaturdvishhaT.hkadaleshhu padmeshhu..."

1. mUlaa[dhAra] having 4 petals in each of the five padma-s

2. nAbhi having 6 petals in each of the 5 padma-s

3. hR^idaya with 8 petals in each of the 5 padma-s

4. Indrayoni/tALu with 2 petals in each of the 5 padma-s

5. bhrUmadhye with 4 petals in each of the 5 padma-s

6. mUrdhni/brahmarandhra with 12 petals in each of the 5 padma-s

HKAS_05-26 vibhUti saMdhi

He also provides all tools [shAstra-s] but His grace alone can help the jIva to get rid of all the shackles and reach moxa. From the looks of it though it is discouraging it attaches high importance to Lord's sarva swatantratva. We cannot make Him to give darshana and He shows himself to whom he chooses.The likes of Prahlada, Dhruva have got (not 'won' although) His grace thru bhakthi and sadhana.

MT: Acharya, in his MBTN 1.77 quotes mundaka upanishad 3.2.3 [also KaThopanishad 1.2.23] to drive home the point that His grace alone is the final deciding factor.

"yamevaishha vR^iNute tena labhyastasyaishha AtmA

vivR^iNute tanuM svAm.h" || 1.77||

Acharya further quotes from bhavishyat parva to stress the importance of tAratamya j~nAna and Hari sarvottamattva needed to get His grace.

Those immersed in indriya sukha and those having perverted'intelligence' never get His grace.

Chandogya 8th adhyaya, 8th khanda narrates the story of how both Virochana, the asura leader, and Indra went to Chaturmukha to understand about "Atma" and how Virochana understood it wrong and Indra got the true meaning of it.This further illustrates that mere intelligence or listening/reading shAstra is useless unless one has His grace.

1. "jIva is non-different from its svarUpa/svabhAva. It is aprAkR^ita It is j~nAna and Ananda chaitanyamaya [tAmasajIva's are dukha and aj~nAna maya] "-- What makes paramatma to designated one jiva as saattvika other as tamasika and rajaasa.. Why Dwesha for one person and Bhakti for the other. And what is the criteria for such a classification??

MT: Bhagavan doesn't give them. The svabhAva/nature is intrinsic to the jIva.

Gita 17.2:

trividhA bhavati shraddhA dehinAM sA svabhAvajA |

sAttvikI rAjasI chaiva tAmasI cheti tAM shR^iNu || 17.2

The astikya buddhi of jIva-s are also of three kinds and why so? -- it is due to the very nature of the jIva-s and not due to external things and so their shraddha/astikya buddhi is also of three kinds.

To give an example, He is like a farmer who plants the seeds in a soil and nurtures them and a neem seed grows as neem and a mango seed grows as mango. The farmer doesn't make them sweet or bitter.

This is just an example and has its own limitations.

Since jeeva is aprakrita, it does not have doshas..(correct me if I am wrong).

MT: Just like j~nAna, bhakti are intrinsic in a sAttvika so is aj~nAna and dukha in a tAmasika jIva. Their dvesha is ever present as a shakti rUpa in the dormant stage and it becomes manifested when they come to sR^ishhTi -- just like a seed that has all the potential in its dormant stage but manifests when it grows up.

as doshas come from karmas.

MT: Karma is jaDa. guNa or doshha depends on the anusandAna and intention behind any act. That's why even the seemingly bad acts of devata-s don't give them doshha and the seemingly good acts of Asura-s like Duryodhana doesn't give them punya/guNa.

since Sri Hari is the only one who grants bhakti thru Vayu devaru. Why does he gives Dwesha for Asuras and Bhakti for devataas..??

MT: He makes those qualities manifest based on their svabhAva,past karma and its prayatna.

deva-s by nature are full of j~nAna and bhakti and daitya-s are just the opposite.

2. "From beginningless time jIva has been trapped in the prakR^ita perishable invisible cage called linga deha. However, it is dormant and unaware of its own existence. For this linga deha,"

-- at the time of Moksha does the Linga deha dissolve. And only the jiva is there. ?

MT: Yes, the jIva in its own natural self is called moxa/liberation.

"vAsudevo vA idamagra AsInna brahmA na cha shaN^karaH |nendrasUryau na cha guho na somo na vinAyakaH " || -ityAdishrutibhyashcha || 446||

'Before the universe was created Vasudeva alone was,neither Brahma nor Sankara. There was no Indra or....

Does this mean that at the pralaya time Brahma, rudra and other devataas get destroyed. Then what happens to their Jeevas..

MT: jIva-s do not get destroyed. During praLaya, prakR^iti guNa-s are in equillibrium and at rest -- Laxmi, in her three rUpa-s, does not exercise abhimAnittva/control over the jIva-s. All jIvas, except Brahma/sarasvati and Vayu/Bharati are in sushupti avastha meaning that they are in deep sleep unaware of their very existence. Brahma/Vayu do not give any preraNa to the jIva-s during pralaya.

HKAS_06-01 paMcha mahAyajna saMdhi

MT: Let me give some preface to this sandhi.

The entire sandhi explains the Panchaagni Vidya section of Chandogya 5th adhyaya and bhR^ihadaranyaka [6th adhyAya, second brahmaNa] in a very simple way for our understanding and awareness.

The *upAsana* of this vidya was done by the xatriya-s. This Brahma Vidya was taught by a xatriya king named Pravahana Jaibali,to a very learned Brahmin, Gautama/Aruneya.

The incident starts with the arrogant Svetaketu who goes to the kingdom of Pravahana Jaibali and realizes that he doesn't know the answer to the five questions of Pravahana Jaibali.

The five questions are:

1. The path the jIva-s take from this world to the next

2. The return path from that loka.

3. Divergence of the paths from that loka and its cause.

4. How the world never becomes full.

5. How in the fifth libation/offering the water gets the name "Man".

Svetaketu's pride doesn't let him to learn from others. However,his father Gautama desiring to learn the vidya approaches King Pravahana and as a 'sishya' he learns it.

The point to note here is that even to such a learned/Rishi, the knowledge is not immediately given. As per scriptures[cf. aitareya 3.2.6/second praghaTTa #6, upasamhara] he was made to wait before receiving the lessons!

The fifth question is taken up first and the five stages of the jIva entering the 'body' is explained here.

http://madhwaprameyamahodadhi.blogspot.com/2014/09/jiva-homa-prakarana.html

The upasana that is taught here is to see the pancharUpi Bhagavan [Narayana, Vasudeva, Sankarshana, Pradyumna Aniruddha] present in panchaprANA-s [Prana, Apana, vyana, udana and samana] in five adhistana [Heaven/dyu, clouds/parjanya, earth/varsha, man/purusha and woman/yoshha] and the five aspects of each.

Following the path of Acharya, Dasaru gives the essence of the sandhi in the very first verse.

The point to keep in mind while reading this chapter is that every word describes Bhagavan [when vidvatrUDi is taken], and then it applies to Mukhyaprana and finally the devata-s/literal meaning.

For example, the first adhishtana Dyu/Svarga:

Bhagavan is called Agni [that which absorbs/imbibes/sucks in everything or that which gives stability]. The same meaning in the limited sense applies to all five "Agni-s" mentioned in this sandhi. Similarly the names of these loka-s -- Dyu,Parjanya etc., denote Bhagavan.

How is the nArAyaNa rUpa different from nArAyaNa-nArAyaNa rUpa and similar other such rUpa with same name but occurring twice ?

MT: khaNDa and akhaNDa upAsana of Narayana is mentioned here. 'Seeing' Narayana as vyApta/akhaNDa in the entire loka/adhistana and at the same time seeing Him as khaNDa in the *aspects* of that loka.

For example, in the Dyu/Svarga adhistana, the upasana is to meditate His niyAmakattva as Narayana pervading the entire dyuloka *and* see the same rUpa as present/niyamaka in the Samit [one of the aspects of that loka].

The classic example that is given in shAstra [cf. HKS 6.8"panchanAri turaga"] for the "khaNDa and akhaNDa" upAsana is that of "navanAri kunjara" -- a sketch of nine girls put together as an elephant. It appears as that of nine girls when viewed separately and as an elephant when seen in another way.

vAsudEva is the abhimAni for **space** in His mUla rUpa and the other five rUpa-s here are vAsudEva-nArAyaNa, vAsudEva- vAsudEva,

vAsudEva-saMkaRShaNa, vAsudEva-pradyumna and vAsudEva-aniruddha.

In the above it should be abhimaAni for clouds right?

MT: vAsudEva is the abhimAni for **Clouds**.

The abhimani for this upasana is Apana vayu and niyamaka is Vasudeva.

How can the LORD have Abhimana?

MT: Bhagavan does not have abhimAna at all.

He should never be called as "abhimAni".

"abhimAni" refers to niyamya / appointed meaning that it needs someone superior to it as niyAmaka/controller.

Thus the above five are classified as tama, mOha, mahAmOha, tAmisra and aMdhatAmisra are collectively called aj~nAna paMchaka or avidya paMchaka.

duRgA nAmaka ramAdEvi is the abhimAni. duRgAramaNa R^idrAMtaRgata saMkaRShaNa ParamAtma regulates the iMdriya-s through the manOtatva and gives the experience of the above.

I don't understand for one as to why Durga namaka ramadevi be the abhimani for these negative traits. I used to think that for all avidya/agnana spreads thru tattvabhimani daityas.

MT: Yes, indeed but the hierarchy doesn't stop there. The daitya-sare controlled by Mukhyaprana and he in turn is controlled by Laxmi Narayana. Only Bhagavan as svatantra has the complete independent control to give and remove aj~nAna etc.

Under Him, Durga controls the avidya panchaka -- Ignorance/tamas,wrong knowledge/moha, conviction in wrong knowledge/mahamoha, fanatism in wrong knowledge/tamisra and eternal wrong knowledge/andamtamisraare the avidya panchaka.

btw, Verse # 9 to 13 has to be read as one piece to understand how Bhagavan pervades inside us and gives prerana to the jIva that is 'born' from the "fifth oblation".

1. He pervades this jIva as "Atma"

2. In His three rUpa-s, Achuta, Ananta and Govinda, He pervades the three aspects in us like adhibhuta, adhyatma and adhidaiva [indriya-s, panchabhuta-s, and its abhimaani-s].

3. He pervades the ten indriya-s and its vishaya-s [like shabda sparsha rupa, rasa and gandha.]

This verse and the next explains that:

1. Bhagavan is present with His 16,416 rUpa-s in the tanmatra-s[sound, touch, form, taste, smell]in all chetana-s.

2. He, in His five rUpa-s [kR^idholka, maholka etc.,], is present in the five *upa-prana rupA-s of Mukhyaprana [Naaga Kurma etc.,]along with Tamobhimanini Durga.

3. He gives avidya panchaka to ayogya-s and removes avidya panchaka for sattvika-s thr' Durga and Mukhyaprana.

hR^idayAkAshasyAN^gushhThamAtratvena tadgatarUpasya `aN^gushhThamAtra'padenoktivat.h |

Thus, the "size of the thumb" applies literally to the cavity of the heart, and is thus used to refer to the form of Vishnu resident therein. In the khaNDArtha on kaThopaniShat's

"aN^guShThamAtraH puruSho madhya Atmani tiShThati",

Rayaru clarifies that the anguShTa size referred there is that of the jIva and not of the deha.

MT: I don't think so. Please check Acharya's bhAshhya for kaThopaniShat.h # 2.1.12:

" dehAN^gushhThamito dehe jIvAN^gushhThamito hR^idi"

Inside sthUla deha, He is of the "size of deha's aN^gushhTha"and inside svarUpa deha, He is of the "size of svarUpa aN^gushhTha"

The Mulesha upasana that I mentioned is to do with the rUpa in the sthUla deha_

hR^it.h kamala madhya nivasa [HKS 9.9/ff].

The given"size" here is with reference to sthUla deha

[sthUlAN^gushhThapramANenabimbamUrthi virAjate --Muktitattva # 91/ff].

Here at the "foot"of the Mulesha, Mukhya prana is doing Hamsa mantra japa and the jIva embodied in the linga deha is at his feet [HKS 9.19].

Mulesha keeps"moving" among the petals/patra-s of the kamala giving various vikara-s to our buddhi thr' its abhimani devata-s.

Apart from this, the svarUpa deha also has "suxma" akAsha/daharakasha.Mukti tattva says that in the svarUpa deha,

Bhagavan as Vasudeva is of the "size" of the thumb of the svarUpa deha

[ jIva hR^itkarnikAmadhyejIvAN^gushhThapramANakaH].

Sankarshana is of the "size of the tip of the thumb" of the svarUpa deha. Pradhyumna is of the "form" of the jIva, and Aniruddha pervades the "indriya-s" of the jIva. Bhagavan Nrsimha with His 80725 [that's the number one gets by counting bhArabhR^id.h rUpa], 2827 jvarahara rUpa-s pervades the entire svarUpa akasha.

Mukthi tattva is "possibly a part of Brahmanda purana".

HKAS_07-11 paMcha tanmAtra saMdhi

The 18 main PurANas are: viShNu purANa, nArada purANa, shIrimad bhagavata purANa, garuDa(suparna) purANa, padma purANa, varAha purANa, Brahma purANa, BrahmaMDa purANa, BrahmavaivaRta purANa, maRkaMDeya purANa, bhaviShya purANa, vAmana purANa, matsya purANa, kURmapurANa, liMga purANa, shiva purANa, skaMda purANa and agni purANa. But, as per Vishishtadvaitha (Sri Vedantha Desika..I think in one of his works) the author for Vishnu Purana is Sage Parashara

KT: Not really. Just because Sri Shukacharya told Bhagavata to Parixit, we don't say that Sri Shukacharya is the author of Bhagavata.In VishnupurANa itself, Sri Parashara himself says:

AkhyAnaiHshcApypAkhyAnairgAthAbhiH kalpashuddhibhiH |

purANasamhitAM chakre purANArthavishAradaH ||

prakhyAto vyAsashishhyo.bhUtsUto vairomaharshhaNaH |

purANasamhitAM tasmai dadau vyAso mahAmatiH ||

which clearly indicates that VedavyAsa is the author of all the eighteen purANas including VishnupurANa.

Also further down, even the order of the purANas is mentioned -Brahma purANa is first, then Padma and then Vaishnava (VishnupurANa), then Saiva and so on.

It is further mentioned that those who know the purANas know that Vedavyasa composed the 18 purANas.

'prANa' -mean - class of jIva-s, Isha - niyAmaka, thus mukhya praNa is jIvOttama.

MT: Vadirajaru commenting on IshavAsya # 1 defines prANa as"prakR^ishhTacheshhTAheturhi prANaH" -- meaning Mukhyaprana is pre-eminent cause and force behind all actions. Of course Bhagavan is prANasya prANaH.

PraaNa also means "praNetR^i' -- guide/leader of all[cf. S.C. Vasu on Chandogya # 2.7.1]and here it refers to MukhyaprANa.

The process of shvAsa japa has three parts:- pUraka - the process of breathing in fresh air (Oxygen) through our nose kuMbhaka - the process of containing the air in our heart/lungs to purify the blood rEchaka - the process of exhaling used air (Carbondioxide)

On a different aspect, Yogis and others (in sandhyavandane) too does 'pranayama' by holding breath in 3 different stages -

MT: I don't understand what you mean by 'holding breath in the three stages' -- it is only in kumbhaka one does "dhAraNa",isn't it?.

Acharya clarifies that prANayama includes all three aspects -- pUraka, Kumbhaka and Rechaka. Puraka and Rechaka are for the sake of Kumbhaka [Gita Bhashhya #4.29].

Kumbhaka is given greater importance among the three. Actually,Mukhyavaayu as Vyana is directly in command in kumbhaka state [cf. chandogya # 1.3.3].

If we hold our breath for long duration in 3 different stages - either for yogic results or for prana ganda (deep in river etc.) does this action of jeeva not interrupt mukhyaprana in his hamsa japa?

MukhyaprANa-s sAdhana in each body is independent of jIva-s activities. Each jIva lives its full life in the body it gets and no matter how we breath/live,the svAsa japa preordained by Mukhya vayu in that particular body gets done by him.

A pranayama results in bad phala or a good phala for the doer and

Pranayama done with bhagavat dyana always gets good phala. In the Bhagavata, when asked what is "bala", Krishna says that Pranayama is supreme bala

"prANAyAmaH paraM balam.h" - # 11.19.38

in what way?

It helps to focus our mind [on Bhagavan].

Brahma purana says "ekAgratA cha manasaH prANAyAmastathaiva cha |"

HKAS_08-03 mAtR^ikA saMdhi

In this stanza, JagannAtha dAsa explains about the six petals lotus like centre which is located below the navel at the lower back which is referred as ‘tuMdi’ - the centre from which the spinal chord originates which is the nerve centre. This has a four petal lotus structure and in the region of navel there five lotus flower like structure centers having six petals each. The suShumna nADi i.e. spinal chord originates from the tuMdi and ends at the top back of the head.

MT: I don't think suShumna nADi is the spinal chord -- one of the prabheda/divisions of sushumna nADi called brahmanADi,'lights/opens up' when the prArabdha karma of the j~nAni jIvais done with, so it is something beyond the sthUla deha.

Perhaps we can just say that the corresponding location is somewhere in the vicinity of spinal chord[?]

This is also referred as brahma nADi.

There is some difference here -- brahma nADi is a prabheda [sub division]of suShumna.

There are four nADi-s around the suShumna nADi as follows:-

Central – shuShumna (brahma nADi)

East – prakAshini (dhAriNi)

South – vaidyudtA (piMgaLa)

West – vajrikA

North – Arya (IDA)

MT: There seems to be some mix up here.

My understanding based on TSS, Mukti tattva [one of the source texts for HKS edited by Shri Nagasampige], tattvakaNikA [as given in the parishishhTa section of TSS edited by Shri Vyasanakere.]:

sushhumna nADi is surrounded by iDa, pingala, [vajrikaand dhAriNi]. iDa is to the left of sushumna and pingala is to the right. The TSS quote which you gave below as proof is for this one.

However, the pancha rUpa dyAna is with regard to the bhagavat rUpas in the 5 prabheda-s of sushhumna. The suShumna nADi consists of [clockwise from 3 o' clock position/east direction] AvabhAsika/prakAshini, vaidyuta,vajrika, Arya and the center one is brahma nADi. The exact quote from TSS # 4.150 is given below...

"IDA cha piMgaLA chaiva vajrikA dhAriNI tathA

suShumna yAtchtudiRxu vajrikA dyAsu tatracha

chatuRmURtiH sa bhagavan hR^idayE sa vyasthitaH"

MT: This quote TSS # 4.154 is to do with the nADi-ssurrounding and outside sushumna. iDa and pingala arechandra sUrya nADi-s meditated during praNayaama whichis done for 'shuddhi' cf. Bhagavata 11.27.22ff

After praNaayaama, dyAna/upaasana are practiced and the appropriate quote from TSS is # 4.150

"mUlAdhAraM samArabhya tvAmUrdhAnamR^ijusthitA |

madhye sushumnA vij~neyA vajrikA.a.aryA prakAshinI

vaidyutA brahmanADIti saiva paJNchaprabhedinI

pR^ishhTa, vAma, agra, daxa, antar bhedAtte cha krameNa tu ||

Also note this 'mAnasika dyAna' is not just for j~nAnipurushha-s -- it trains sAdhaka-s to withdraw the sense organs and keep the mind focused in Him for few minutes to start with. Having practiced, one can find it lot easier to chant a two line shloka simultaneously with the [yathashakthi] anusandhana of its meaning. Depending on the progress, with time, one can add location/color/abhimani devata-s to the 30 padma-s present in these nADi-s asper TSS/HKS etc. I'll attempt a separate posting on this after consulting other admins. and elders.

Bhagavata 11.27.ff says that after this dyAna one should start the bhAhya puje with the anusandhana that the same bhagavan who is within us with His parivara is there along with His parivara in our puja pratimA-s etc.

HKAS_08-10 mAtR^ikA saMdhi

nEtragaLali vasiShTa vishvA

mitra bharadhvAja goutama

natriyA jamadagni nAmagaLiMda karesutali

patratApaka shakra suRya dha

ritri paRjanyAdi suraru ja

gatrayEshana bhajiparanudina paramabhakutiyali...HKAS_08-10

nEtragaLali = in the two eyes

vasiShTa = vasiShTa muni

vishvAmitra = brahmaRshi vishvAmitra

bhAradhvAja = bhAradvaja R^iShi

goutama = goutama tapasvi

atri = anusUyApati atri muni

jamadagni = jamadagni (father bhARgava rAma)

MT: Just a clarification.

I don't think any R^ishhi is meant here -- the exact source for HKAS # 8.10 is bR^ihadaranyakopanishad, shishu brAhmana # 4.2.2 Acharya has commented on this verse by quoting a prachina work called Narayaniya.

Basically it is a upasana for keeping in check the misleading sapta asura-s of the indriya-s [4.2.1], and getting the anugraha of Vayu thr' sapta indriyabhimani devata-s who worship Vayu residing in the eye [and worshipping Narayana].

DEvaru who is like a calf tied to the rope. Just as the calf is the control of the rope, which is in turn under the control of the pillar, in the same way vAyu dEvaru is in control of laxmI dEvi, who is in control of pradyumna ParamAtma.

this is from bR^ihadaranyakopanishad, sishu brAhmana # 4.2.1

The above is the worship to MukhyavAyu [antargata Narayana] bythe sapta devata-s who control and present in the eye with 'imperishable' [axitayaH] knowledge.

Who are they and where do they stay in our eye?

Acharya quotes Narayaniya:

1. Rudra with the name Gautama -- knower of j~nAna ["sarvajnatvat.h prakIrtitaH"] staying in the red arteries of the eye.

2. Parjanya as Bharadvaja [giver of food -- "vAjam annam bharedyataHvR^shhTyA eva"] who gives nourishing food thru rain and resides in the water of the eye.

3. Aditya as Vishvamitra [spreads light to the world -- "Vishvamitra Akhya Adityo yatprakashanat.h"] resides in the pupil of the eye and who thru his light gives perception to universe.

4. Agni as Jamadagni [eater of created things -- "jAtam mitam cha atti"] resides in the iris of the eye and eats the born limitedly.

5. Indra as Vasishhta ["vasatAmuttamo" -- uttama among the residents]resides in the cornea of the eye.

6. Prithvi as Kashyapa [one who drinks in lying position water from the clouds -- "meghavR^isshTam pibed.h yat 'kam' shayAnaiva hi sA sadA"]stays in the tears of the eye[corner of the lower eyelash].

7. Dyau/Uma as Atri resides in the upper eyelash and eats homa offering.

HKAS_08-24 mAtR^ikA saMdhi

A demon called hiraNyAxa (brother of hiraNyakaShipu) took away mother Earth to pAtALa. shrIman nArAyaNa came to the rescue of mother Earth in His varAha rUpa and rescued her by killing hiraNyAxa. Since varaha rUpi ParamAtma rescued the Earth He is also called 'dharAdhara'. Pls clarify as to how could Hiranyaxa overpower Bhudevi. Is he higher in kaxa than Bhudevi.

MT: If you are referring Laxmi as bhUdevi, it is incorrect.There is no separation between Narayana and Laxmi. She is nitya aviyogini \ nityamukta --

j~nAnAnandasvarUpi and doesn't have prAkR^ita deha and how can anyone 'abduct' her? With her mere look she can bring total annihilation etc. [MBTN 5.36]

As for abhimani devata-s, there are several devata-sfor 'earth/bhU, which is one of the panchabhUta-s. How to know which devata is referred here. [cf.the guideline given by Acharya in his Gita tAtparya# 3.42, bramna tarka quote?].

In this context, the key word is "dharAdhara", and from this we understand it to be "dhara devi" [pR^ithvi] who belongs to the # 18 kaxa and not others.

how to understand this incident in which Lord's consort has been taken away by an Asura Similar to Ravana taking away Seetha.

MT: Acharya in his Gita bhAshhya # 2.72,

simply quotes from Narada, SkAnda/Shaiva[?], and GarudapuraNa-s which explain how all His lIlaa-s are for deluding the undeserving and providing such lIlA-s for the nitya upasana/shravan manana for the deserving.

As for Ravana taking away Sita, Acharya in his MBTN # 5.37 explains :

"devyAH samIpamatha rAvaNa AsasAda

sA.adR^ishyatAmagamadapyavishhahyashaktiH |

sR^ishhT.hvA.a.atmanaH pratikR^itiM prayayau cha

shIghraM kailAsamarchitapadA nyavasachchhivAbhyAm.h ||

"tasyAstu tAM pratikR^itiM pravivesha

shakro devyAshcha sannidhiyutAM vyavahArasiddhyai |

AdAya tAmatha yayau rajanIcharendro hatvA

jaTAyushhamurushramato niruddhaH || 5.38||

Gist: With Her amazing shakti, Sita creates a replica and goes to Kailasa and gets served by Shiva and Parvati. Indra, desiring to do seva to Her, gives 'life' to that replica of Sita.

Also note the available bhavishyat purana story [source for Venkatesha Mahima] mentions that an assistant of Svaha devi enters into that replica and gives 'bhAva' for that replica.

HKAS_08-27 mAtR^ikA saMdhi

EkAdasha divAkara-s - There are 12 sURya-s. They are therefore commonly called as dvAdashAditya-s. urukrama nAmaka sURya among them is ParamAtma's avatAra. Thus the group of other sURya-s are refered as EkAdasha sURya-s (11

sURya-s) and they are listed below:-

1. puraMdara

2. mitra

3. varuNa

4. paRjanya

Aren't they called 12 Aadityas (Aditi's children)? Surya (Vivasvan) is one of the Aaditya.

MT: There is nothing wrong at all in referring them as sUrya-s.

They are all j~nAni jIva-s even before they were born as Aditya-s, so sUrya-s [Bhagavan Vamana is sUrya too as He is sought by the j~nAni-s, # 18.39 sUrigaMyage sUryanembaru]

They are all children of aditi, so Aditya-s too.

Actually, Shri Jagannathadasaru himself has used the word"sUrya" to refer to one of Aditi's sons known as Parjanya in this very sandhi itself, so it is apt to call them sUrya-s-- pls. see, mAtR^ikA-sandhi # 8.15

"tAlu paRjanyakhya sUryanu aRdhagaRbhaniha.."

EkAdasha divAkara-s - There are 12 sURya-s. They are therefore commonlycalled as dvAdashAditya-s. urukrama nAmaka sURya among them is ParamAtma'savatAra. Thus the group of other sURya-s are refered as EkAdasha sURya-s (11sURya-s) and they are listed below:-

In BG (10.21) Krishna says - "Adityanamaham Vishnurjyotisham rabiranshuman" (I am vishnu among Adityas..... etc.) This 'vishnu' is not quoted in the list of HKAS. In this context, how to interpret this sloka appearing in BG.

MT: I don't see any contradiction in them.

As mentioned by Shri "Moudgalya", one of the Aditya-sis svayam Bhagavan Himself -- there is no difference between one rUpa of Bhagavan [here, Vamana among Aditya-s] and another. All the meanings that shruti-s extoll by the word "Vishnu" are there in Bhagavan VAmana too.

What is the difference between words 'vibhuti',

Without dyAna, aparoxa is not possible[GB 2.66]. To facilitate dyAna/dhAraNa, Bhagavan mentions some rUpa-s in GB, bhAgavata11.16, and this is further elaborated with examples by dAsaru in his HKS in many sandhi-s [especially vibhUti sandhi].

vibhUti can mean many rUpa-s, vishesha rUpa-s, vishesha mahima-s, special presence etc. In this context, it refers to that particular presence of Bhagavat rUpa in a "vastu"which makes that "vastu"/entity stand out from the rest.

Thus, the anusandhana here is to see the greatness of Bhagavan in that "vastu" and view the 'vastu' with this background.

amsha

MT: To put it crudely:

aMsha can be svAmsha/svarUpAMsha and bhinnAMsha.

In case of Bhagavan:

1. All His rUpa-s are svAMsha-s.

2. the rest are bhinnAmsha-s [cf. Mahavaraha quote in GTN 2.24]

In case of devata-s:

1. Their 'birth' [having abhimana / attachment to that body] as'avatara-s' is svAMsha like Indra-Arjuna. That which has aMsha is aMshi/mUlarUpa. Indra knows everything about Arjuna but not the other way. Arjuna is "aMsha" and Indra is "Amshi". Arjuna's birth etc., are based on Indra's past prArabdha karma-s.

2. Bhinnamsha is the special influence they have in the 'vastu-s' they reside without having any abhimAna /attachment to that 'vastu' -- like Nara's presence in Arjuna.

and 'avatara'.

MT: Generally it refers only to Bhagavan. Although He is sarva vyApta -- all desha, kaala, guNa-s with all His forms and grandeur, He makes Himself seen by every mortal [during that avatara] with their prAkR^ita eye although He is aprAkR^ita.

ashvnigaLeraDu - there are 2 ashvini dEvata-s, the twins named nAsatya &dasra, who were born from the nostrils of the horse.

Is this horse from whose nostrils, ashvini devatas born, is Vishnu. What I think is it (horse) may be not a normal horse or some incarnation of a demi god but Vishnu. Any elaboration on this would be of help.

MT: If I am not mistaken, here it refers to the sthUlasR^ishhTi of the Ashvini devata-s during this Manvantara.

Bhagavata # 6.6.40a:

vivasvataH shrAddhadevaM saJNj~nA.asUyata vai manum.h |

mithunaM cha mahAbhAga yamaM devaM yamIM tathA || 39||

saiva bhUtvA.atha baDavA nAsatyau sushhuve bhuvi |"

Vivasvan's patni saJNj~nA-devi, takes the rUpa of a horse [vaDavA] and gives 'birth' to nAsatya and Dasra [ashvinikumAra-s].

There is also the rule that if a name or word can refer to multiple entities, the main among those entities is referred without any specific adjective, while others are addressed with an additional supplication. As an example, when the word 'sUtra' is used, it is implicitly understood to be referring to brahmasUtra (similarly with gItA, vyAsa etc). This point is made in Srimad Acharya's BSB. Therefore, rudra implicitly refers to the main among them, which is umApati rudra. This distinction is made in Brihadaranyaka, where there is a mention (1.4.11) of creation of rudra (singular) as one of the abhimAnis for kShatriya varNa, and a subsequent verse talks of creation of rudrAs (multiple) as abhimAnis, among others, for the vaishya varNa. The first one is taken to refer to umApati while the latter are for other rudras. IMO, this is also why, whenever any vedic verse refers to rudra, we simply take it to refer to umApati (unless there is a stronger reason to think otherwise).

MT: Acharya quotes shabda nirNaya [GTN # 3.42]which gives guidelines to determine the correct meaning of a word.

"bahuvAchinAM shabdAnAM liN^gaprakaraNAdibhiH |

pravR^ittihetoshchAdhikyAnnirNAyo.artheshhu gamyate ||"

When a word has multiple meanings, it has to be determined based on the axioms/description, whole chapter/context,purpose, cause and importance should be given accordingly.

What if everything is of equal importance?

Acharya quotes Brahma Tarka which says:

"liN^gAdisAmyaM yatra syAtprayogAdhikyameva tu"

[Then] importance is to be given to the predominant [common] usage of that word.

HKAS_08-28 mAtR^ikA saMdhi

tOrutippanu chakradali hiM

kAranAmaka shaMkhadali prati

hAra gadeyali nidhana padmadalippa prastAva

kAruNikanudgItha nAmadi

mAramaNanairUpagaLa shaM

khAri modalAdAyudhagaLoLu smarisi dharisutiru...HKAS_08-28

I had read in an explanation of this padyA that udgitha corresponds to the urdhvapundra.

MT: Dasaru doesn't say so.

One has to understand HKAS with the background of Tantra SaaraSangraha and Upanishad. In the Chandogya upanishad bhAshya, Udgita itself refers to Mula Narayana as all the rUpas starting with Vasudeva"come out" ["udgachchanti" Chan.upa 2.2.1) of Mula Narayana.

MT: This padya refers to the pancha-sAma upasane in the nAma-mudras that we apply in the pancha-bhuta deha -- pls. note that Dasaru's choice of words "shankhAri modalAdAyudhagaLoLu smarisi dharisutiru".

Can it be both?

MT: Certainly not.

Or is there a separate bhagavadrupa for the urdhva pundra.

MT: Yes, the rUpa associated with Urdhva pundra is Vasudeva rupa, the dhyeya rUpa of Sri Vasudeva Dvadasha mantra.

HKAS_09-14 udAttAnudAtta saMdhi

As mentioned by you jIvAchchAdhika gets destroyed by the Grace of Almighty during aparOxa and paramAchchAdhika gets shifted (like a curtain gets shifted in a theater once the show starts and gets shifted back once the show ends).

MT: Yes, Mahaa-viveka quoted by Acharya in his Bhaagavata tAtparya# 10.94.12 says that svaguNAchchAdika is destroyed and paramAchchAdika is pushed aside.

It is further stated:

"vyAghutya mohapadavIM dadAti purushhottama"

Moxa is obtained after the paramAchchAdika is pushed aside.

Acharya has not commented on this, and Shri VijayadhvajIya has not elaborated it either. However, Shri Bannanje Govindacharyain his ABMM critical edition of SarvamUla footnotes a pointer to Vishnurahasya -- unfortunately the photocopy of this book that I have is smudged [page number # 561, of ABBMM, BTN], and I am unable to make out. Also, I don't know if it is relevant to this question either!

It is also a known fact that when a jIva undergoes aparOxa thirODhAna, he tends not to know about self. If jIvAchchAdhika were to get destroyed during aparOxa then during aparOxa thirODhana the jIva shouldn't at least forget about self but generally it is not the case. So I think the jIvAchchAdhika may get removed at a later point. Any further inputs on this from any of the vyAkhyanas will be helpful.

MT: I don't think so -- thirODhana is due to 'Vishnu mAya'

There are four kinds of AchchhAdana -- jIvachchhAdika,paramAchchhAdika, shaivala and mAya [pls. check, Madhva siddhanta sAra sangraha -- somewhere in "avidyaprakaraNa" and let us know if you come across any further info.]

Note that apart from jIvachchhAdika, paramAchchhAdika,linga deha itself has sattva, rajo, tama avaraNa-s, and Bhagavan as trivR^it controls the three prAkR^ita guNa-s there.

For some, prArabdha shesha_ is there till one gets rid of the linga-deha. Till then, there is the influence of Vishnu mAya.

One hint is there from Gita Bhashhya # 2.72 where Acharya quotes Garuda purANa re Bhishma's episode:

"vishhNumAyA tadA teshhAM mano bAhyaM karoti hi"

[As long as prArabdha is there (note all the devata-s have prArabdha in the form of padavi also)] Vishnu-s achintya shakti [as Durga] diverts the prAkR^ita mind towards external things.

However, how can aparOxa j~nAni still know about the self *fully* or *correctly* when he's still in samsAra.

By the prasada of Bhagavan.

Without the correct and complete knowledge of self, Bhagavat darshana is not at all possible. Also, note that ship is needed only to those who are yet to cross the ocean of samsAra [ship here is the vR^itti j~nAna].

Also, see Atharvana upa. # 2.2.8:

"bhidyate hR^idayagranthishchhidyante sarvasaMshayAH |

xIyante chAsya karmANi tasmin.h dR^ishhTe parAvare || "

When the jIva gets the aparoxa [tasmin.h dR^ishhTe] of his Lord, the antahkaraNa bandha [BTN 11.20.31--hR^idayagranthi=antaHkaraNa bandha] gets cut and all doubts and 'karma' [except prArabdha] get destroyed.

Gita # 4.38 says there is nothing comparable to Aparoxa j~nAna. The laxaNa of such j~nAni is very beautifully explained in GTN 5.7 -- He who has cleansed himself with indriya and mano jaya and performing kriya with complete Bhagavat arpana buddhi [yoga yukta] has placed his buddhi always in Bhagavan. He knows that He who is all pervading as controller in all bhUta-s is the lord of him also [sarvabhUta AtmabhUta Atma].

What is not possible for such a soul? -- nAradiya quoted by Acharya in the very end of GTN 5 says such a soul is_like_ a mukta! -- "amukto muktasAddR^ishyan.h mukta eva hi.."

Basically, everything is under the control of Vishnu and His prasada is needed.

Acharya quotes a grantha called mAyA vaibhava in his BTN[11.11.3] which says that the two rUpa-s of Laxmi, Shri and Durga administer vidya and avidya by the ichcha of Shri Hari.

Bhagavata: 11.11.3:

"vidyAvidye mama tanU viddhyuddhava sharIriNAm.h |

mokshhabandhakarI Adye mAyayA me vinirmite ||

This vidya and avidya are under the control of Krishna and the former is responsible for moxa and the latter is for bandha.

Should prArabhda karma not hinder him from having self realization?

MT: No, not at all -- some of the prArabdha 'shows' up only after aparoxa.

Take the case of Arjuna who is a j~nAni -- he has prArabdha.

Acharya says that Arjuna had some prArabdha is indicated by the vR^ittAsura incident["Ishhat.h prArabdhAnArthasUchakaM"- Bhashhya on Gita #3.19]

Should not this happen in mOxa rather? or that jIvAchChAdhika gets destroyed along with liMga dEha not before that?

MT: No, I don't think it happens in moxa or along with linga deha.

jIvAchChAdhika gets destroyed at the time of Aparoxa j~nAna.

Remember the linga deha itself is enough to do tirodhana etc., as Durga's bandha shakti is still there.

It is also a known fact that when a jIva undergoes aparOxa thirODhAna, he tends not to know about self.

MT: Yes indeed -- During thirODhAna, the 'aparoxin' doesn't know himself and forgets his j~nAna and that of Bhagavan.

Acharya in his MBTN 22.245.ff, while explaining Banasura incident, shows how even Shiva's mUlarUpa gets affected and he becomes like a jaDa!

Chaturmukha takes this Shiva jIva how at Bilva vana he got Rudra padavi due to his tapas to Vishnu etc.By his grace, MularUpi Shiva gets rid of his 'asura moha' and does stotra to Bhagavan. Similar thing happens to MularUpi Shiva after Ravana's death[MBTN 8.]

If jIvAchchAdhika were to get destroyed during aparOxa then during aparOxa thirODhana the jIva shouldn't at least forget about self but generally it is not the case.

MT: jIvAchchAdhika gets destroyed during aparoxa j~nAna.

From anAdi kAla, the jIva has samskAra-s/vasana-s clinging to linga deha and that doesn't get removed till linga-deha is destroyed.

MT: Acharya explains [also quotes shruti in GTN 2.55]in

Gita Bhashhya # 2.55:

'evaM paramAnandatR^iptaH kimarthaM pravR^ittiM karoti?'

- iti prashnAbhiprAyaH |

The query is why a j~nAni who has obtained inner joy in Bhagavan indulges in such bAhya kArya?

'prArabdhakarmaNeshhattirohitabrahmaNo vAsanayA prAyo

alpAbhisandhipravR^ittayaH ...'

Gist: Due to the vasana-s of prArabdha karma probably there is small forgetfulness resulting in tirodaana of j~nAna.

HKAS_10-08 saRva pratIka saMdhi

Just as the river's antaryami devata's know of their identity even if they are mixed up in the ocean's so also the mukta jeeva will know that he is not one with the Lord or the Lord himself , but has his separate identity and serves the Lord there also just as the rivers mix about in the ocean and appear to be one with the ocean but are not so.

MT: Also those with prAkR^ita deha cannot observe theaprAkR^ita mukta-s just as the observer on the seashore cannot know the difference in various waters of the sea.

I think that's how it is explained by Acharya [and Rayaru] in Atharvana upa # 3.2.8

yathoodakaM shud^dhe shud^dhamAsiktaM tAdrugeva bhavati evaM munervijAnata AtmA bhavati goutama ll (lV.15) This is from the KathOpanishad and is addressed to Gautama. Here it is stated that when pure water is mixed with pure water the former becomes similar to the latter. Similarly,the soul of the knowing sage becomes similar to God. This is a very important passage which meaningfully and with significance uses the term 'tAdruk' which means 'tatsadrusha' and not ' tadEva' nor ' tallIna'.

MT: Also, Acharya quotes Bhavishyatparva to show that even

Chaturmkha never becomes one with Bhagavan.

When some quantity of pure water is mixed with some other quantity of pure water, the latter quantity of water does not become one with the former, but it remains distinct from it, which can be seen by the increase in the total quantity of water. Similar is the case with the Supreme Soul and the liberated soul. The latter remains distinct even though it possesses some qualities similar to those possessed by the Lord.

MT: In the Gita Bhashhya 2.50, Acharya quotes an interesting incidence from Maha Kaurma-purANa. *Once Indra wants to test Vasishhta and pours pure water from his kamaNDa toVasishhTa-s and proceeds to King Sudasana's yaaga. Upon his return he asks Vashishhta to give back his water and Vasishhta does separate his water from that of Indra's!

Just because we don't have the ability to separate doesn't mean that it cannot be separated.

* taken from the footnote of SarvamUla critically edited by Shri Vyasanakere Prabhanjanacharya.

Query on tatvAbhimAni dEvatAs

1) What are their functions EXACTLY?

MT: They always reside inside our body and also outside controlling both chetana-s and jaDa-s by giving prerana,and executing the actions as per the commands of Mukhyaprana [who is ever dependent on Sri Hari]

The tattvabhimAni devata-s also stay inside the 'body' of their superiors but their role is that of being a servant in a palace, and in those below them they stay as adhikAri-s.

For instance, if Indra Deva is the presiding deity of sense-organs,what does that actually mean?

MT: He is in charge of all devata-s of various indriya-s,and he in turn receives orders from his superiors.He guides the good jIva-s thr' the actions of the indriya-s towards Sri Hari. When the 'time' is not ripe/right, he doesn't give such prerane. This is the sAdhana which is natural to his post, and he gets a big share of "phala" for executing the action done by the lesser ones since he makes them do that -- as you can see, the jIva gets very negligible punya and Mukhyavayu gets the max. "phala".

What does Indra Deva do wrt senses? Or Rudra Deva wrt mind and so on?

MT: A crude example is -- attending pravachana-s/pATha. Some may "hear" but understand it differently. Very few listen, understand and retain it. Among them those who contemplate it, is rare. A real sAdhaka proceeds much further. For each action, one needs the anugraha of different abhimani devata-s. Even the very act of "hearing"has several devata-s -- some may "hear"[and retain] only the "laukika kAmya" aspect [abhimAnidevata is Mitra]; some have aptitude for vyakarana, chandas [Varuna]; interest in purana-s [yama]; moral aspect [Kubera]; vaidika puja etc[Chandra] [cf. aitareya bhA. prathama praghaTTaka # 1.4]

As for manas-tattvabhimani-s, see:

http://madhwaprameyamahodadhi.blogspot.com/2014/08/dieties-of-mind.html

2) Is it possible to know the dEvatAs corresponding to> the various parts of our body, like who presides over the eye, nose etc?

MT: Yes, indeed -- the Bhagavanta [in specific rUpa-s, see HKAS 6.18-21] is contemplated inside us along with His parivAra in these various j~nAna-karmendriya-s.

"soma [ear]

kubera[skin]

sUrya[eyes]

varuna[mouth]

ashvi[nostrils]

agni [speech]

indra[hands]

jayanta[feet]

yama[pAyu]

daxa[upasta]"

[Rayaru khandartha for kaTha. # 1.3.10 -- "shrotratvak.. kramAt.h.."]

Pls. note that tAratamya is to be understood as niyamya/niyAmaka bhAva -- the devata-s higher than the said devata and also those devata-s whom they control.

For example:

Indriya abhimAni-s are controlled by arthabhimAni --> manoabhimAni --> chitabhimani ---> Mahat abhimani --> mUlaprakR^itiabhimAni --> Sri Hari.

[Rayaru khandartha for kaTha. # 1.3.13]

Is it absolutely necessary even though we worship VAyu JIvOthama? Is there a specific method we, as MAdhvas,should follow?

MT: To know this, one has to follow the tAratamya way of worship -- Sri Hari is to be worshipped along with His parivAra both inside us and outside.

Thanks for your response. Are there also counterparts such as tatvAbhimAni asurA-s?

MT: Yes, indeed. The entire HKAS sandhi # 30 is about daitya tAratamya.

Sri Jagannathadasaru in HKAS # 9.15 says that devata-s,and daitya-s who reside in our various indriya-s do their activities of giving respective preraNa-s as their sAdhana under the command of Mukhyavayu.

Acharya in his GB 3.37ff has explained how the mano abhimAni daitya-s can destroy the tapas/dyAna of even j~nAni-s.

Bhimasena "killed" the six daitya abhimAni-s of the mind [kAma, krodha etc., controlled by Kichaka, Duryodhana,duHshAsana, Maniman, Jarasandha and Bakasura] and chanting his name will help one to control these "vairi-s"[GB 3.37]within us.

Cf. Sri Vadiraja's Mukhyapranashhtaka:

http://www.dvaita.net/pdf/stotra/vadiraja/mukhyaprana.pdf

"kAmI yena hi kIchako vinihataH krodhI cha duHshAsanaH

stabdho lubdhasuyodhanashcha maNimAnmugdho madAndho bakaH |

kR^ishhNershhyAbhiratashcha mAgadhapatiH shhaDvairivargAtsadA

sa tvaM bhIma guNAbhirAma dayayA dAsaM hi mAmuddhara || 5||"

Does that mean once we understand that we do 'evil' by their instigation, pApa would cease to have an effect on us?

MT: No. The statement is itself illogical. pApa will have an effect on us. The question is what is pApa and what is not. Similarly the question is whether one is aware of the fact of instigation or one understands the implications. That is jIva kartR^itva vichAra, which is hard to discuss in a few emails or write-ups. In brief understanding is different from being aware -- it includes awareness plus a _lot_ more.

For understanding,a detailed study has to be done and one who does that will not make an attempt to do evil.

That tendency to apply the vichAra should be reflected in every deed like that of JaDabharata, Janaka etc.

Gita bhAshhya 2.56ff and especially Bhagavata 11.11.9ff gives the picture of how a person who has understood "I am not a doer" concept behaves in this mundane world.

Such an anusandhAna is the laxaNa of only the aparoxins!

Whatever is their "laxaNa" becomes prayatna/sAdhana for us:

Gita bhAshhya # 2.56:

"tadvai jij~nAsubhiH sAdhyaM j~nAninAM yattu laxaNam.h"- iti

I mean, we are not responsible for thinking unholy thoughts or succumbing to lower impulses, it is the asurAs who are responsible.

MT: It is not exactly like that. This concept has to be studied in a proper way. Neither devata-s nor asura-sdo independently any thing. They do as per the instigation of the Lord, which again depends on the svabhAva. It is the svabhAva of asura-s to give bad instigation, and itis the svabhAva devatas to give good instigation and it is the svabhAva of the jIva to heed asura-s or devata-sas the case may be and all of them reap the fruits of their action - none spared.

I also read something to this effect (probably from HKAS) that if a person offers his bad deeds to Krishna with this understanding, he doesn't incur sin.

MT: The catch here is to understand what is meant by offering bad deeds. It is not an object and it is not by a statement one can offer. One who knows how to offer will not do the bad deeds. The meaning of "offering the deed" is a very involved topic.

Thr' the study of shAstra one has to realize:

1. Bhagavan is the maintainer of the svabhAva of the jIva.

2. Based on the past karma-s and svabhAva-s, He gives us the prerana thr' the tatvAbhimAni devata-s and daitya-s. [nAham karta harih karta]

3. It should become our anusandhAna - as we do the act, we should have that Bhagavat praj~na all the time that we as parAdhina, using the parAdhina indriya-s, doing the parAdhina act [cf. BTN 11.11.9] which is given and controlled by that Only Svatantra entity thr' the devata/dvaitya-s based on our past karma and svabhAva -- this comes only thr' janma's of shAstra adhyayana.

For example, take Indra's heinous act of Ahalya episode.Acharya quotes taitiriya A. that this act had no effect on Indra -- not even a hair was touched due to it!

"tasya loma cha na mIyate"(tai\.A\. 3\.1\.3)"

That is because he did that as a commandment from the Lord.

Having said all these, there is no need to get dejected at our miserable state. Bhagavan assures that not even a tiny selfless good act goes waste and the very initiative of that act gets phala unlike mundane deeds # GB 2.40.

ALso, say Rudra is the manObhimAni dEvatA and guides our thoughts toward Hari, does that mean we can rely on him rather than make (personal) effort?

MT: No, not quite -- we have to make every prayatna [that's the whole message of Gita] with the right knowledge including that the phaladAta is Bhagavan.

If we still have to make the effort, doesn't that contradict the very concept of "tatvAbhimAni dEvatA-s" and also the purpose of Rudra being the presiding deity of the mind? Put simply, if a sAtvic jIva has to make the effort, wouldn't it contradict the idea that the dEvatAs guide satvic jIva-s?

MT: No, it is not like that. Without their help, we can't even make that prayatna! They have to give us the prerana to do the prayatna -- for every tiny action there is a part played by everyone as per tAratamya and the share of phala is as per tAratamya.

We only try to do as per the vidhi, nishedha prescribed. The process is controlled by "tatvAbhimAni dEvatA-s".

So, is it correct to assume that one is not sAtvic if one's mind isn't focused on Hari (meaning, Rdura it is not like doesn't help us focus on Hari because we aren't sAtvic)?

MT: Not really -- take the case of Ajamila.

One cannot judge someone by one act or even one janma. Also, note one doesn't have sattvaguNa all the time. aj~nAna avarana is always there as long as we are therein samsara.

Bhagavan at the appropriate kAla gives us the appropriate prerana/prayatna/action thr' the devata-s.

HKAS_11-15 dhyAnaprakriyA saMdhi

"sAlokyasArshhTisAmIpyasArUpyekatvamatyuta

dIyamAnaM na gR^ihNanti vinA matsevanaM janAH"

KT: It actually comes in 3rd skandha, 30th adhyAya, verse 13. These words are uttered by Lord Krishna to Maitreya (not Uddhava)

Gist: ParamAtma told uddhava that a true bhakta would never ask ParamAtma for the following five boons - living in ParamAtma's lOka, obtaining aishwaRya equivalent to ParamAtma, staying close to ParamAtma, obtaining His rUpa-s, asking for position equal to Him.

KT: It does say:

"Even if offered, the wise devotees do not accept even sAlokya, sArshhTi, sAmIpya, sArUpya, or ekatva; when they are devoid of serving Me."

The key here is "when they are devoid of serving the Lord."

The consequent questions are

1. What do these terms mean?

2. Is it possible to have sAlokya, etc without serving the Lord?

There are four kinds of moxa - sAlokya, sAmIpya, sArUpya and sAyujya (referred as

sAlokya = living in vaikuNTha or shvetadvIpa, or anantAsana (an interesting point is that sAlokya can be starting from earth upto all places until xIrasAgara;

pR^thvImarabhyoktakrameNa yAvannArayaNastAvatsarvasthAneshhvapi)

sArshhTi = samAna aishvarya (this is similar to AnandasAmya; just as Lord has infinite aishvarya or Lordship that befits Him, the jiva-s blessed by the Lord will have great aishvarya or Lordship that befits them

sAmIpya = Being in the vicinity of the Lord (Lord is always inside us and we are inside Him, meaning all of us have the vicinity. Then what is this one? It is experiencing such vicinity. muktirnaija- sukhAnubhUti)

sArUpya = having same form as Lord (four arms, etc.)

sAyujya = doing pravesha in the Lord

(vAyurvishhNuM pravishyaiva bhogashchaivottarottaraM)

sArshhTi characteristic can be in all the four. As noted above, it is as per the yogyata of the jiva-s.

The lowest form is sAlokya and the highest form (which is for the gods) is sAyujya.

It is true that the four types of moxa do have inherent quality of serving the Lord. The purpose of saying that 'the wise devotees do not wish for these if they are devoid of serving the Lord' is to emphasize that 'the muktiyogyajIvas desire for these because they have inherent quality of serving the Lord'.

HKAS 14-21 PitrugaNa saMdhi

Shastras do refer to the two main types of rUpa-vishesha of Bhagavan. Note that here also, there is NO difference in the Lord but there is *difference* in the abhivyakti kAryas of the Lord. I thought that seeing difference even between God's kriyas/karyas was an offense? What is mean by abhivyakti kAryas?

KT: abhivyakti kAryas means "abhivyakti" of the kAryAs or manifestation of the actions of the Lord. Certainly, you would not say that the creation of this universe and annihilation of the universe are the same. yet both are acts of the Lord. If there is non-difference between the Lord and His actions, then all His acts are the same and so the creation must be same as annihilation!

To understand this, let us look at three things -

1. A verse from Gita -

"vidyAvinayasampanne brAhmaNe gavi hastini

shuni chaiva shvapAke cha paNDitAH samadarshinaH " - 5-18

2. A verse from HKS -

oMdu guNadoLananta guNagaLu oMdu rUpadoLihavu lOkaga

Lomdu rUpadi dharisi tadgata padArthadoLahorage

bAmdaLadavOliddu bahu pesariMda karesuta pUrNajnAnA

nandamaya paripari vihArava mADi mADisuva |

3. Analysis of these words to a small extent.

If the same Lord is present in a small tiny ant and also a huge elephant, how come both of them do not exhibit the great power of the Lord. We immediately jump to express "Oh, the Lord makes them manifest the their strength as per the jIva yogyate."

Then what about the jaDa-s - let us take 3 kinds - physical matter, abstract things like thoughts, concepts, desires, feelings, etc. and actions themselves like moving, lifting, pushing, creating, destroying, etc.

The same Lord pervades the atom and this universe. How come they don't exhibit the same kind of infiniteness?

The same Lord pervades a small thoughts and also the universal will. How come they are not same?

The same Lord is present in a small action like lifting hand and also universal act like creating the universe.

We have to se samatva of the Lord present in them and not samatva in those things themselves, which will mainifest differently as [er the will of the Lord. The infiniteness of the Lord is also coupled with the independence of the Lord. Our prAkR^ita guNas make us see the prAkR^ita things only rather than the "aprAkR^ita guNa" of the Lord that drives the prAkR^ita things.

This prAkR^ita outlook drives us to resort to prAkR^ita logic and conceals the aprAKR^itatva, independence and infiniteness, which is uniformly same in all those things.

We should not judge or apply logic as the Lord defies every kind of logic.

I will give a small example, why that is so.You agree that you are inside the Lord. You will also agree that the Lord is inside me. So, by pure logic, you should be inside me - but that is not so. How come the same Lord is inside the tiny atom and yet the entire universe is inside Him - the only way out is to take refuge in His achintya-adbhuta-shakti.

So, when we talk about the actions of the Lord, we must not refer to the jaDa actions that we are quite familiar with, but the infinite, independent and incomparable act of the Lord that is present in every tiny act, just as the same Lord, who keeps this entire universe inside Him also is present in the tiny sub-electron matter as well.

What is seen or what manifests or what can be conceived is never a measuring stick or else the incomprehensibility of the Lord's Gunas or kriyas completely by even His eternal consort LakShmi would not make sense.

That is a nice question and highlights the natural tendency of some schools with misguided approach.

What does "achintya" mean? Incomprehensible or inconceivable.So "achintya" in its absolute sense can be applied only to the Lord. He is achintya and his shakti is adbhuta and achintya and so His adbhuta shakti is achintya. So, the full expression "achintya-adbhuta-shakti" is acceptable and fully consistent term.

Transferring His characteristics to the universe or to any aspect is nothing short of ridiculous.

There are examples for "bhedAbheda", but there are no examples for "achintya-bheda-abheda".

Let us analyze this a little more.

If X and Y are two entities, which does "achintya"refer to? Xor Y or both or bheda or abheda? They take refuge in heavy confusion and evasiveness.

Let us list some of the possibilities.

1. X is achintya and Y is not achintya. Their difference is achintya and non-difference is not achintya.

2. X is achintya and Y is not achintya. Their difference is not achintya and non-difference is achintya.

3. X is achintya and Y is not achintya. Their difference is achintya and non-difference is achintya.

4. X is achintya and Y is not achintya. Their difference is not achintya and non-difference is not achintya.

There can be 4 more with both X and Y being achintya, 4 more with neither being achintya and 4 more where X is not achintya and Y is.

When we take God as one of the entities, then the above 4 are enough to analyze, as God alone is achintya and none else is. That very fact is enough to throw all the four above. When one is achintya and another is not, the non-difference does not happen at all. Then where is the question of discussing whether the non-difference is achintya or not? Then trying to enter a circular argument by trying to exploit God's achintya shakti, if one says "God is achintya- means He can do any thing - means He can achieve the incomprehensible non-difference between Him and the Jiva or Him and the universe" is ridiculous.

Such approach leads to even more ridiculous arguments "God can do anything - so can He commit suicide? Can He create a stone that He can not lift?" If this is one kind of mischief, the above is another kind of mischief.

Similarly, the anirvachanIyatva is also a ridiculous and mischievous approach. The universe is not anirvachanIya. The ordinary jIva is not anirvachanIya.

God will not use His unique power either to bring Him down to the level of Jiva/universe or bring the jIva/universe to bring to His level.

There are two types of aMsha-s.I don't think this verse talks about two types of amshas.Various avatAra-s of nArAyaNa are like matsya, kuRma, are His svarUpa aMsha-s. There is no difference between nArAyaNa and and these forms (abhEda).This portion does not sound right. How can we have difference between the God in our hearts and the God in Vaikunta? The other aMsha of ParamAtma is present in the hearts of all sentient and in sentient beings.

KT: Here there is difference (bhEda) between the original form of the Lord and those in the heart of these entities.

Indeed it is quite confusing!

Can anyone clarify?

KT: Shastras do refer to the two main types of rUpa-vishesha of Bhagavan. Note that here also, there is NO difference in the Lord but there is *difference* in the abhivyakti kAryas of the Lord.

The two rupas are:

1. The bimba-rupa that is very specific and unique to every jIva. Contextually, sometimes it is referred as "Amshi".This rUpa vishesha is always present inside the jIva and thus it is "jIva-antastha" rUpa.

2. All the non-bimba rUpa-visheshas outside the jiva-svarupa. This type is referred as "jIva-bahishhTa".

The Bimba-rUpa is always "present" within the jiva in the sense that this form doesn't even leave the jiva even for a split second during pralaya and thus has no samsleshana nor vishleshana in the mUla rUpa [aka no "laya" "shrsuhti" if such words can be used].

However the non-bimba rUpa-visheshas like Aniruddha etc.,Matsya, kUrma etc., and also those in the jaDa-s have lina ["laya"/samsleshana] in the mUla rUpa [BTN 1.12.55 quoted from Brahma Vaivarta] and pradurbhava during creation. During "creation" all these rUpa-vishesha starting with Vasudeva have pradurbhava/vishleshana. That is why Chandogya upanishad calls mUla Narayana rUpa-vishesha as "udgita" as all rUpa-visheshas "come out" of Him (udgachchanti) and the "first rUpa Vasudeva is called as Pra-stAva because he is "first to appear".

What is Dutta Swaatantrya for Jeevas? Does it really exist? If yes, for what kind of karmAs, do we get such swaatantrya?

KT: Dutta svAtantrya has superficial meaning "given svAtantrya" and many people run with this apparent meaning and think that the Lord gave certain amount of svAtantrya to all the jIvas. Added to that Sri Jagannatha dasaru has mentioned in "Dutta svAtantrya sandhi" that Sri Hari took 400 svAtantrya guNas from his infinite svAtantrya and divided among all the Jivas. But going in detail thru that sandhi, it becomes pretty obvious that there is no svAtantrya to the Jivas.

Then what does all this mean? Dutta svAtantrya is one of the forms of the Lord Himself and He placed His own forms in various Jivas and performed the kAryas in this universe. So, Dutta svAtantrya is not actually 'koTTA(given) svAtantrya" , but "iTTA(placed) svAtantrya". Dutta svAtantrya sandhi tells what ratio of "Dutta svAtantrya" forms of the Lord, He placed in various Jivas and acted thru them. All the Jivas are just pratibimbas and puppets being energized by Him. Among the Jivas, LakShmi has greatest role and then Brahma, Vayu, etc.

HKAS_17-01 svagata svAtaMtrya saMdhi

The earlier saMdhi discussed about 'datta svataMtrya' We may like to understand as to why it was called 'datta svAtaMtrya'.The jIva has anAdi svataMtrya.

MT: jIva doesn't have any svAtantrya, see Gita # 5.14-15

"na kartR^itvaM na karmANi lokasya sR^ijati prabhuH...

nA.adatte kasyachit.h pApaM na chaiva sukR^itaM vibhuH"

The jIva doesn't have any svatantrya doership, nor it can give independent doership to any one. It also doesn't have svAntaMtrya in the addR^ishhTa[punya-pApa --

"kriyAniShpanna dharmAdirUpakarmaNi"] and the resulting phala.

"na kartR^itvam.h" ityAdinA | 'kriyAyAmadR^iShTotpAdane phale cha

svAtantryaM lokasya na sR^ijatIshvara' ityarthaH

Be it karma or karmaphala, the Lord does not give independentdoership to jIva.

ParamAtma exists as biMba in the jIva from anAdi kAla.This svAtaMtrya comes into play during the state of mOxa.

MT: bimba pratibimba bhAva manifests fully in moxa but even here, the jIva is bhagavat adhina only.

jIva is eternally dependent on Bhagavan.

muktiviveka quoted by Acharya in BTN 11.11.6:

"baddhatvaM sarvajIvAnAM niyamAnnityameva tu

baddhatvaM vishhNu adhinatvaM ..."

Just as ParamAtma gives us the triguNAtmaka jaDa dEha to enable us to perform the triguNa kARya-s, He also gives us jaDa svAtaMtrya.

MT: That is parAdhina 'svAtantrya' -- it is more like a mother who holds the laddle and lets the child use it too, giving the impression that the child is cooking. Mother never *gives*that laddle to the child.

In order to regulate the jaDa kARya-s, originally the svarUpa jIva must have ichChA. Therefore, ParamAtma gave the His svAtaMtrya (datta svAtaMtrya) to the jIva during sR^iShTi itself. Therefore the jaDa svAtaMtrya is given to the jIva at the time of obtaining the sthUla dEha.

MT: Acharya gives an example to illustrate this:

Just like a king who lets people live in his kingdom similarly Bhagavan has let us live in this deha --

Gita tAtparya # 5.14:

'janapade nivasatAM tadvittabhojinAmapyAdhipatyAdAnAnna

dattA janapadA rAj~nA svaputrANAmitivat.h karmaphalAdi

saMyoginAmapi tatsvAtantryAdAnAt.h na sR^ijati' iti yujyate

The sons of a king, who live in the kingdom, enjoy the benefits there in. Because, the king has not given the kingdom to his sons,it is said that the king did not give the kingdom to his sons.Similarly even though the jIvas partake the fruits of the karmas,it is quite appropriate to say that the freedom for karma is not given to the jIvas.

ParamAtma regulates this 'datta svAtaMtrya' by bestowing kARya siddhi (success) according to the efforts put in by the person. If a person obtains success in his efforts as per his efforts, then it he could very well say that 'datta svataMtrya' is in action.

MT: In any case, jIva does not have even a tiny bit of independence (or svAtantrya) either in action or its fruit.

HKAS_20-12 guNa tAratamya saMdhi

dhanapa viShvaksEna gourI

tanayarige uktEtararu sama

renisuvaru eMbhattaidu jana shEShashatareMdu

dinaparArELadhika nAlva

ttanilarELvasurudra rIrai

danitu vishvEdEva R^ibhuvashvini dyAvApR^ithivi.........HKAS_20-12

Among the 9 crores dEvata-s only 100 of them are entitled for sOmarasa pAnaru i.e. to enjoy sOmarasa. Their division is as under:- marut-s 50

MT: Maruts are 49 in number however when taken along with Indra they make 50 in number.

6th skandha bhAgavata, 18 adhyaya:

"sajUrindreNa paJNchAshad.h devAste maruto.abhavan.h |"

pitR^i-s 2 higher kaxa, 1 lower kaxa total 3

MT: To comment on this, I am not sure who these 3 specific pitR^i-sare among the 7 pitR^ipati-s. I assume that the 2 higher mentioned in HKAS are Soma and Yama and the lower one is Kavyavaha based on the tAratamya-saN^graha vyAkhyana by shrI karavIrapura madhvacharya:

"pitR^inAM bahutve.api somapAnArhAstraya eva grAhyAH

techa somo yamo.agnishcha iti"

Though there are many pitR^i-s only three are qualified to have somapAna. They are Soma, Yama and Agni [kavvyavaha].

Madhva-vijaya, parishishhTam # 5 edited by Sri Bannanje.He identifies the three as Soma, Yama and Kavyavaha but places Kavyavaha in kaxa 18. It would have been nice ifhe had mentiond the source for these 3.

Interestingly, all the popular comm. on Sudha [on Iyadamana-adhikaranam] *seem* to have included 3 pitR^i-pati-s in the shesha-shatasya group aka 18th kaxa. However, the comm.including that of Rayaru doesn't name them specifically-- correct me if my understanding is wrong.

Any authentic pointer will be appreciated.

100 25th kaxa pR^ithivi

MT: Both dyAva and pR^ithvi are shesha-shatasta devata-s[cf.comm. on IyadAmanadhikarana] who belong to kaxa #18. ThepR^ithvi devata mentioned here is Dharadevi, "patni" ofVaraha. She is different from dhAradevi who is the patni of Vasu named Drona [one of the 8 vasu-s who was born asNandagopa].

pitR^i-s 2 higher kaxa, 1 lower kaxa total 3

To comment on this, I am not sure who these 3 specific pitR^i-s are among the 7 pitR^ipati-s. I assume that the 2 higher mentioned in HKAS are Soma and Yama and the lower one is Kavyavaha based on the tAratamya-saN^graha vyAkhyana by shrI karavIrapura madhvacharya:

"pitR^inAM bahutve.api somapAnArhAstraya eva grAhyAH

techa somo yamo.agnishcha iti"

MT: Though pitR^i-pati-s are mentioned in both the postings,the context is quite different.

The above URL is re bhojana vibhAga - specifically the pitR^ipati-s associated with the food we offer and its distribution.As for the Vishvedevata-s, they give raxana/protection during the entire process of shrAddha.

The pitR^igana-s are vast in number. They are controlled bypitR^i-pati-s --> pitR^i-devatas.

Here in the guna tAratamya 20.12, the context is re the 3 pitR^i-s who are among the shesha shatastha i.e., the 3 pitR^i who belong to kaxa # 18 and have adhikara for somapAna.

There are only 100 [plus 2 according to some] devata-s who have eligibility for soma-pAna.

commentators on Sudha have listed the 100 devata-s -- this comprises of 87 [or 85 depending on how one groups]in kaxa 18 plus 12 devata-s above, and 1 inferior to kaxa # 18. TippanikAra-shave included the pitR^i-traya-s in kaxa # 18 but have not named them specifically.

"The names of Soma, Yama are *absent* in the list of 12 superior devata-s". Also it doesn't figure in the 100 somapana devata-s.

The list of 100 devata-s are given in page 5036 of panchamobhAga,

of Sriman nyAyasudha published by UM.

The 12 superior devata-s [ including Ashvini 2 who are qual to

kaxa #18] are:

MukhyaprAna

Vasu - Agni

Rudra

Aditya - Indra, Surya, Varuna, Parjanya

BR^ihaspati

Marut 2 Ahamprana and Pravaha

HKAS_21-15 bR^ihattAratamya saMdhi

The essential story is that Indra was stained and weakened by the killing of Vrtra and had to leave his post. Who is vritrasura? Is he a brahmana or a bhagavatha under the influence of kali?

MT: Vrtra is the chief of Vidhyadaras (demi-gods), and a great Vishnu Bhakta. Due to curse by Parvati, he is born with "demonic" appearance.

In the absence of Bruhaspati, devata-s ask Twashtacharya's son Vishvarupacharya

(a nephew of Daitya-s) to be their guru. He being sympathetic to his asura uncles, secretly gives ahuti to asura-s too! Indra kills VishvarUpa. Angered by this, Twashta invokes a "son" Vrtra from the yaj~na to kill Indra.

Though Indra had to kill him for the welfare of the world, why should he had to take leave out of the post, albeit for a short while.

MT: It is quite complicated and one should understand this with the help of Tippani on bhAgavata 6.13.

As per loukika dharma, killing a brAhmana results in "doshha".

In case of Indra (who is a realized soul), he suffers dukha due to his own past prArabdha, and the Vrtra incident is to hint that he too had such a dukha-prArabdha ("na tu nUtana-dukhakArakam.h").

In this case, even such a dukha-prArabdha, turns out to be a blessing. Sri Satyadharmaru in his Tippani points out that Indra takes shelter in Laxmi and Narayana who have vishesha sannidhana in lotus. Following this he does Ashvamedha yaaga and during the Mahavrata (cf.dvitiyapraghaTTaka of ai.up) Bhagavan Vishnu[along with Vayu], makes Indra his adhishtana and accepts the mantra ahuti three times. This whole incident gives Indra Ananda vruddhiin moxa, and fame in this world as "Mahendra".

Whose avesha was there in Vrithra which makes Indra seek bones of sage dadichi.

MT: Indra doesn't need the help from Dadichi to kill Vrtra("samrthA api yAchante deva..." BTN 6.9.41) but follows the command of Sri Hari.

This incident is similar to that of Prahlada to highlightthe glory and strength of Dadichi's [hayagriva-brahma] vidya,tapas, and vrata-s like kR^ichchha-chAndrAyaNa. It is togive "yashas" ("yashArtham") to Dadichi.

If it is Vayu's or someone superior to Indra why should they takes shelter in a asura desha who are tainted with all kinds of doshas.

MT: That is not the case here. Also, superior devata-s do not get tainted when they "possess" the deha of an Asura.

HKAS_21-16 bR^ihattAratamya saMdhi

During dvApara yuga when vAli had an encounter with duMdhubhi, vAli entered the cave and was fighting with duMdubhi. Since vAli did not return for many days, sugrIva (vAli's younger brother) thought that vAli must be dead and closed the mouth of the cave with a big rock and returned to town and took over as king of kiShkiMda. He then married tArA (who was wife of vAli) as per the rules of vAnara vaRga.

MT: Could you pls. double check your source ? I don't think there was such a rule in vAnara varga -- if so, then there is nothing wrong in Vali's wife staying with Sugriva. There was no need for Rama to punish Vali if Vali had not erred in following vAnara dharma.

A [devata] strI cannot associate with those who are much lower in yogyata to her husband. That is why Vali's wife [aMsha] doesn't join her husband at svarga loka at the end of her "avatara" and wanders in antarIxa loka. She returns back as Chitrangada and undergoes separation from Arjuna in that aMsha.

MBTN 20.160:

"sa vIrasenastvashhTuraMsho yamasyApyAveshayuk.h

sA cha kanyA shachI hi |

tArAdehe sUryajasyAN^gasaN^gAt.h svargaM

nAgAdantarixAdihA.asIt.h || 20\.160||

That Virasena is of tvashhTR^i amsha, with the Avesha of Yama. His daughter (ChitrAngada) is ShachI. On account of anga sanga, as tAra, with SugrIva, she did not go back to svarga, but stayed in antarixa [and later was born as Chitrangada).

HKAS_21-17 bR^ihattAratamya saMdhi

tAranAmaka trEteyoLu sI

tAramaNanArAdhisidanu sa

mIrayuktOddhavanu kR^iShNage prIyanenisidanu

vArijAsanayukta drONanu

mUru iLeyoLu bR^ihaspatigava

tAraveMbaru mahAbhArata tAtpaRyadoLage........HKAS_21-17

Earlier, bR^ihaspatyAchARya was the son of brahma dEvaru. He was born from the manas of brahma along with shachI dEvi. At that time too they were brother-sister. In between, for one janma they were different. He was born to aMgirasa R^iShi and she was born as daughter to marIchi R^iShi (a dAnava). That is how shachI dEvi came to be called as poulOmi.

MT: Marichi Rishi is NOT a dAnava -- Marichi Rishi's son is Kashyapa so he is also called as "mArIcha". He is not a dAnava. He is a prajapati for the manvantara. He marries Danu's and Danu's progeny is called dAnava-s just as Diti's progeny is called daitya-s, and aditi's as Aditya-s.

Bhagavata 6.6.34ff elaborates how at the command of Chaturmukha Kashyapa marries dAnavi Puloma and Kalika. They beget 60,000 [shhashhTi-sahasra] Pauloma-kAlikeya-s.

Sachidevi is the daughter of Pauloma and hence she is called Paulomi.

Sri Vadiraja tirtha, commenting on MBTN 3.71 confirms this by saying:

"mArIchajasya = kashyapajasya PulomanAmnaH shachyeva Paulomiti jAtA"

The same brahaspatyachaRya was born to shachI dEvi as vAnara rUpi -

MT: No, he was not born to Shachi devi -- he is born as her brother.

HKAS_21-34 bR^ihattAratamya saMdhi

vividha maiMdaru nakula sahadE

va vibhu trishikhAshvanigaLilli

divipanAvEshavihudeMdigu dyAvA pR^ithvi R^ibhu

pavanasuta viShvaksEnanumA kuvara

vighnapa dhanapa modalA

davaru mitrage kiMchitAdhamarenisikoLutiharu............HKAS_21-34

vibhu = as vibhu in the 4th manvaMtara (as iMdra)

trishikha = dasra was born as trishikha in the 5th manvaMtara (as iMdra)

I guess you meant the reverse.

Trishika is the "Indra" for the 4th manvantara and Vibhu is for 5th.

Bhagavata: 8.1.25

chaturtha uttamabhrAtA manurnAmnA cha tApasaH....

satyakA harayo vIrA devAstrishikha IshvaraH |

bhA.pu # 8.5.2:

paJNchamo raivato nAma manustApasasodaraH |

vibhurindraH suragaNA rAjan.h bhUtarayAdayaH |

dyAvA = dyAvA - aMtarixAbhimAni dEvata

I think she is svarga-abhimAni -- contexually the diva shabda here applies to Shakra bhArya shrI.

R^ibhu = R^ibhu - one of the dEvata-s

It is a huge group of devata-s[bhA.pu # 4.4.33] who are lower than pR^ithvi and have laya in pR^ithvi tattva [source: tAratamyasangraha dIpika] however, here I think only the three main R^ibhu-s- R^ibhu, vAja, and vibvA are counted as one.

mitrage = mitra nAmaka sURya

It is ok to refer all devata-s as "sUrya" but in usage only the popular "surya" is referred as Surya. I think itis better to refer the other sons of Aditi as Aditya-s.

1) nAsatya & dasra are twin dEvata-s. They are vaidya-s. They are abhimAni-s for nAsikEMdriya-s.They were born to sURya patni saMj~nA dEvi (in her horse rUpa). They are shUdra vaRNa.

The Ashvini devata-s are not "shUdra vaRNa" -- they are the abhimAni devata-s for that varna.

Brihad-bhAshhya, avvyAkR^ita brAhmaNa, # 3.5 refers to the abhimAnittva of these varNa-s and not devata svarUpavarNa-s.

Based on GTN 4.13, nAradiya quote, my understanding is that only manushhya-s have varNa-s in the svabhAva and it doesn't apply to devata-s or daitya svabhAva-s.

1) nAsatya & dasra are twin dEvata-s.They are vaidya-s. They are abhimAni-s for nAsikEMdriya-s.They were born to sURya patni saMj~nA dEvi (in her horse rUpa).

Since they are related to horse (ashva), they are called ashvini dEvata-s.

I don't think they got their name due to their relationship with vaDava rUpa Sanjya devi.

Ashvini devata-s, the abhimAni-s of j~nAnendriya, had their existence even at the very beginning of sR^ishhTi as [dependent] 'niyamaka-s' of the grahanendriya-s. Later on they also took many forms/birth to acquire various qualities. The incident that you refer to happened during the dawn of the 7th manvantara.

Also note that the word "ashva" has many meanings.

It is interesting to note that in 4th adhyaya, 17th khanDa of Chan.upa which deals with vyAhR^iti sacrifice -- any yaj~na needs a set of 3 R^itvik/priests well versed in the three Vedas and then one more set called Brahma who by knowing all the three vedas protects the yaj~na by correcting the flaws made by the other three. He is addressed here as"ashva". In this context, Rayaru while justifying the split of "ashva" as Ashu+vA explains it as:

Ashu vAti = jAnAti yaj~nAbhraMshamitityAshvA

ashva= shIghraM tattadIyaM doshhaM j~nAtvA.abhiraxati sarvAn.h

By recognizing possible flaws [and thereby preventing them] protect all [below them] and thus [known as Ashva]

Sri SC Vasu translates "ashva" as quick witted/intelligent.

HKAS_21-35 bR^ihattAratamya saMdhi

pAvakAgni kumAranenisuva

chAvanavaruchathyamuni chAxuSha

raivata svArOchiShOttama brahma rudrEMdra

dEva dhaRmanu daxanAmaka

sAvaraNi shashibiMdu pR^ithu pri

yavratanu mAMdhAta gayanu kakustha douShyaMti..............HKAS_21-35

During the day time for brahma dEvaru (12 hours for brahma dEvaru) 14

iMdra-s rule svaRga lOka and 14 iMdra-s rule bhU lOka.

MT: Just to clarify:

Bhagavan gives each Indra lordship over all three worlds-- bhUloka, antarixa and svarga loka. Thus, for any given manvantara there is only *one* Indra at a time who rules svarga, bhUloka and antarixa.

Bhagavata 8.13.7:

indro bhagavatA dattAM trailokyashriyamUrjitAm.h |

bhuJNjAnaH pAti lokAMstrIn.h kAmaM loke pravarshhati ||

HKAS_21-38 bR^ihattAratamya saMdhi

arasiyenipaLu dhaRmarAjage

varuNa bhARyOShAdi ShaTkaru

korate eniparu pAvakAdyarigeraDu guNadiMda

eraDu mURjanariMdhama svAha

karesuvaLuShAdEvi vaishvA

narana maDadige dashaguNAvaraLashvinI bhARyA...........HKAS_21-38

karesuvaLu = there are 3 uShA dEvi-s -

2) uShA - wife of aniruddha nAmaka virAT rUpi ParamAtma &

MT: I don't think Usha is the wife of " virAT rUpi ParamAtma"

-- correct me if I am wrong.

The one that is mentioned in this kaxa is Virat.she is the bhArya of annabhimAni-Aniruddha [kaxa # 10].This Aniruddha is the "grandson" of Krishna ["kAmaputro.aniruddhashcha" i.e., Pradyumna's son]. He has the sannidana of Bhagavan Aniruddha.

shyAmalA dEvi is the wife of yama dhaRma rAya. She took avatAra as dEvakI to become the mother of shrI kR^iShNa.

MT: This Devaki is different from Krishna's "mother" Devaki.Krishna's mother Devaki is an avatara of Aditi devi [MBTN 11.219]whereas this Devaki is an avatara of Dharma-patni Syamaladevi.

This Devaki is born to shishupAla and married YudhishhThira

MBTN 20.11:

"shishupAlaputrIM yudhishhThiro devakIM nAma pUrvam.h

svIyAM bhAryAM ..."

uShA dEvi is the wife of kAma putra aniruddha nAmakam virAT rUpi ParamAtma.

MT: Clarification:

Ushadevi is NOT the wife of virAT rUpi ParamAtma. She is the devakanya called Virat and her husband is Aniruddha [Krishna's grandson thr' Pradyumna].

HKAS_21-47 bR^ihattAratamya saMdhi

suraroLage vaRNAshramagaLeM

beraDu dhaRmagaLilla tammoLu

nirupamaru eMdenisikoMbaru tAratamyadali

gurushiShyatvavu R^iShigaLoLu

irutihudu ajAnasurarige

chirapitR^i shatAdhamamarenisuvaru ELu janaruLidu...........HKAS_21-47

vaRNa = there are no vaRNa-s like brahmaNa, xatriya, vaishya & shUdra, just> as it exists among humans (manuShya-s)

chirapitR^i = pitR^i dEvata-s

ELu janaruLidu = except the 7 kaRmaja dEvata-s

[..]

4) Among the pitR^igaNa, there are 7 pitR^i-s (sOma, yama, agnishTat, kavyavAhana, aRyama, anala, baRhishadAkhya) among priyavrata etc., who are kaRmaja dEvata-s.

MT: I don't think you mean the pitR^i-s are karmaja devata-s.

Karmaja devata-s are those who get to be called "devata"due to their intense tApas and not due to their inherant nature whereas the Devata-s have "daiva" svabhAva in them from anAdikAla.

Among Devata-s, tattvika devatas are much superior to others. They have the yogyata to be born from the 'avayava' of Brahma and that is their final "destination" as well [cf. BSB AdityAdhikaranam]

Soma and Yama, the pradhAna pitR^ipati-s, that you mention are AjAna aka tAttvika devata-s.

"chandramA manaso jAtash.h..." R^igveda 10.90.13 quoted in GB 11.19

Yama is born from the shrotrendriya of Bhagavan [cf. maha-aitareya,prathama praghaTTaka.6th mantra].

Thus, my understanding is that they are superior to both the children of devata-s(AjAnaja-s) and karmaja-devatas.

HKAS_23-45 kalpasAdhana saMdhi

A quick clarification here. Do all these Devatha's who perform Sadhana's for such extended durations do it in their Mula Rupa or in their Amsha rupas?

The sAdhana generally includes everything a jIva does till it gets moxa -- the karma-s done to get paroxa--- aparoxa --- prarabdha karma xaya --- blissin moxa -- ananda unnaha in moxa [as applicable].

Devata padavi yogya jIva-s get their post as devata after aparoxa. These devatas exhaust their prarabdha karma and earn ananda unnaha with their mUla rUpa and aMsha avatara.

Also, at the end of a Pralaya wherein Jeevas are dormant, do the Amsha's of each Devatha go back and merge with their Mula Rupa?

MT: I suppose you are referring to their avatara-s.

The "laya" krama is different for different "aMsha-s"of devata-s.

The aMshavatara of devata-s leave their 'body' [utkranti] at the end of their "life" on Earth. Where they go and what happens to them depends on the karma-xaya of that aMshi. For example, Arjuna "leaves" the body, and enter svarga but stays next to Indra till he exhausts its karma by enjoying the vira-svarga bhoga [MBTN, prakashika 32.116].Sometimes they merge after this bhoga or come down as another avatara.

Note that all these 'worlds' along with their inhabitants get destroyed very early during the pralaya.

HKAS_23-60 & 61 kalpasAdhana saMdhi

But what I understand from VijayadAsara suladi & in HKS earlier padyas or later padyas (I don't remember).... that parabrahma rests for 10&1/2 hours which is Brahma devaru 87 &1/2 years.

MT: Let me clarify.

The above statement implies that a great chunk of Chaturmukha's life is "rest time" -- meaning no sadhana for Chaturmukha. That is incorrect.

Gita bhashhya # 8.17 says:

ShrushhTi kaala is symbolically considered as the "day time"[and not "rest time"] and pralaya is "night time" [as there is no "activity"] for Bhagavan.

that parabrahma rests for 10 1/2 hours which is Brahma devaru 87 &1/2 years. When still 1 1/2 hours remaining (Brahma devara 12&1/2 years remaining),

MT: There seems to be a mix up between Chaturmukha's life years and Brahma-maana. Brahma-maana refers to the mode of calculation based on Brahma's perspective. Brahma-maana and Brahma's life years are thus conceptually different.

In Vaikunta Varnane, Sri Vadiraja says:

"bommana nUru varshha praLayada mAna

tanmadhye embhateLvara Abda summane hohudu,

adara tudiyalli namma durgammagechcharike..."

The pralaya kaala lasts for 100 [brahma-maana] years. Out of that 87 and half years passes by without any event. At the end of this pralaya-kaala, Durgadevi "wakes" up...

Sri Durga devi (Ambrani devi) chants Shruti Gita & wakes up Parabrahma & shrishti starts from then during Parabrahma's daytime.

MT: That is ushaH kaala -- day break and not "daytime".

HKAS_24-09 biMbapratibiMba saMdhi

'sAshana'- ashana - means the food we eat. anna and other food items we eat are called ashana. In kali yuga, prANa (life) lies in anna. -- I read this in a monogram on 'sadashara smruti' as also entities in which life dwells in each yuga - viz., in blood, in bones, in flesh etc., in each yuga. I think this has a bearing on jeeva's sadhana - be it dhruva, valmiki etc., in respective yugas.

There is no reference to any yuga-s in this verse. It has nothing to do with life being in blood, flesh etc.in each yuga.

The focus of the sandhi is to know the antaryami rUpa-s of Bhagavan. This verse describes the rUpa-s present in chetana-s and achetana-s and shows how He should be worshipped.

The sandhi starts with the broad description of "OM"kaara axara niyamaka and pratipadya-rUpa-s of Narayana in the 4 stations of a jIva -- asR^ijya state, cycle of samsara, waiting state before linga-nasha, and mukta state. Then he describes how He has pervaded in this Brahmanda giving bandha and moxa.

In this verse, Dasaru says that Bhagavan is present in all the chetana-s as sAshana and in the

achetana-s as anashana. Thus, while feeding any chetana one should think that he is offering the food to the sAshana nAma paramatma who is antaryami of this chala pratima. While offering to vigraha-s etc., one should think that it is an offering to the in dweller anashana nAma paramatma.

ashana means food -- the one who consumes food is sAshana.anashana: the one who doesn't consume food.

However, I could not understand the purport of it specifically as to why the all pervading life is mentioned specifically here as lying in anna. However by lying there, outside our body, this prana weakens a jeeva's effort to curb desire to take food on occasions such as ekadesi etc.,

No such thing is implied here.

I want to know why the purpose of prana being in anna is thus very limited and is not at all helping a bit in a jeeva's sadhana.

This sandhi is called bimba-aproxa sandhi. For bimba-aparoxa it is not enough to know that God is present everywhere but one needs vishesha j~nAna aka vij~nAna yoga, i.e, how He is present inside as antaryami and controls and instigates those aspects by bearing that rUpa and nAma. This nAmopasana paves way to bimba-aparoxa.

ParamAtma exists in anna as anna vAchya and thereby accepts the svAkhya rasa and provides nutrition to the sthUla dEha and provides satisfaction to the jIva. Therefore, biMba rUpi ParamAtma exists in the sthUla dEha of strI & puruSha as 'sAshana'.

-- another meaning I gathered out of Bannanje's book on Purusha suktha is sashana being baddha jeevas and anashana being mukthatmas.

MT: Here one can take three different meaning for this words Ashana and anashana.

sAshana can be taken to mean all chetana-s who consume food and anashana can be taken as referring to all jaDavastu-s, who don't consume food thus both together cover everything in this prapancha. This meaning looks more appropriate contextually.

sAshana can be taken to mean all martya jIva-s -- those who depend on food for survival and anashana-s as devata-s who don't *depend on food for survival*[cf. "xutpipAsAdayash-chaiva devAnAM bhogasAdhakAH" -- quoted by Acharya from aitareya samhita]

sAshana can mean the sthoola deha which needs food for survival and anashana can be the in-dwelling jIva which doesn't need food for survival.

In all the above cases, sAshana form of the Lord is present in sAshana-s and anashana form of the Lord is present in all the anashana-s.

'sAshana'- ashana – means the food we eat. anna and other food items we eat are called ashana. In kali yuga, prANa (life) lies in anna. -- I read this in a monogram on 'sadachara smruti' as also entities in which life dwells in each yuga - viz., in blood, in bones, in flesh etc., in each yuga. I think this has a bearing on jeeva's sadhana - be it dhruva, valmiki etc., in respective yugas. However, I could not understand the purport of it specifically as to why the all pervading life is mentioned specifically here as lying in anna.

MT: Yes, Paramatma is all-pervading, but the same Paramatma through various different forms performs different actions. In this particular context, we need to think of Paramatma as being that force which enables us to digest our food. Without food our body would not get any energy to perform actions, and we must realize that it is"Vaishvaanara" Paramatma who makes this possible. In the gIta, Lord Krishna says that he is the one who resides in the various bodies digesting the food we eat.

"ahaM vaishvaanaro bhUtvaa prANinaaM dehamaashritaH |

prANApAnasamAyuktaa pachaamyannam chaturvidhaM ||"

In other words, we must not think that digestion will just happen automatically on its own. The Lord has not only designed a wonderful body capable of extracting nutrients from food passing through it, but also continually enables this process to occur.

However by lying there, outside our body, this prana weakens a jeeva's effort to curb desire to take food on occasions such as ekadesi etc., I want to know why the purpose of prana being in anna is thus very limited and> is not at all helping a bit in a jeeva's sadhana.

MT: Sometimes the Lord's role is in some ways paradoxical. Like in Vishnu Sahasranaama we say that He is "krodhahaa" as well as "krodhakR^t", he not only causes feelings of anger but also takes it away. Likewise, itis because of Him that we constantly feel hungry on Ekadashi and struggle to do upavasa, but at the same time it is because of Him that we are able to do fasting.

I'm not sure I understand why you say he is limited. It certainly helps in jiva's sadhana, because if not for his presence in food and his enabling digestion to occur, the body would not get any energy from food. Without energy, the body would not function and we would not be able to perform any tasks. So his role is crucial in this"sadhana sharira" that the jiva has.

ParamAtma exists in anna as anna vAchya and thereby accepts the svAkhya rasa and provides nutrition to the sthUla dEha and provides satisfaction to the jIva. Therefore, biMba rUpi ParamAtma exists in the sthUla dEha of strI & puruSha as 'sAshana'.

-- another meaning I gathered out of Bannanje's book on Purusha suktha is sashana being baddha jeevas and anashana being mukthatmas.

MT: sAshana means those that eat, anashana means those that do not. If taken as the fruits of one's actions, the baddha jIva's reap the fruits of their actions, whereas mukta jIvas, not being bound by samsara can be taken as 'anashana'.

It can also mean jIva and jaDa. Something that is jaDa does not experience the fruits of its actions, but the jIva (while in samsara) does.

Whether sAshana & anashana is taken as mukta/amukta, or jIva/jaDa,either way, puruSha surpasses and stands far above (vyakraamat) both.

(HKAS 24-14 & 24-12) biMbapratibiMba saMdhi

In HKAS_24-12 biMbapratibiMba saMdhi, it is mentioned the following:-

ParamAtma exists as 'xamIhana' He tolerates their mamakAra i.e.

MT: samIhana -- it is # 454 in Vishnu-sahasra-nAma.

Thus the meaning for the word is also different.

Since He tolerates their mamakAra, He is called xamIhana nAmaka ParamAtma. He bestows

MT: samIhana = one who grants the wishes of those who worship Him.

Question:It seems to me a paradox when it's mentioned:- A) Lord does not allow the Jiva to know He is performing the Karmas

B) Lord tolerates the jiva's ahankara and mamaKara. How to reconcile A and B?

MT: I don't know where this word "tolerate" is mentioned in B.

If it is the Lord who controls the very thought of ahankara and mamaKara, how can the Jiva be held responsible? Why should misra phala be bestowed on the Jiva if the Lord did not allow it to think it is not the doer?

MT: The control / niyamana is based on the guna, [past] karma, kaala and svabhAva of the jIva.

In the Vyapti sandhi 3.24, Dasaru gives an example of Sun light bringing out the internal colors of various stones and similarly...

"mAramaNa lokatrayadoLiha mUrUvidha jIvaroLagiddu

vihAra mADuvanavara yogyate karmavanusarisi"

The Lord staying inside the three kinds of jIva-s does the karma-s based on their yogyata and [past] karma-s.

Learnt from texts that Hanumantha will be next Brahma devaru.

MT: Mukhyaprana will occupy the post of [Chaturmukha] Brahman the next brahma-kalpa.

My questions are 1. Where the above is explained?

MT: In the Mahabharata-tAtparya-nirnaya, second adhyaya, shloka # 34, Acharya mentions this.

"brahmAtmako yato vAyuH padaM brAhmamagAt.h purA |

vAyoranyasya na brAhmaM padaM tasmAt.h sa eva saH ||"

Gist: The previous kalpa's Vayu is this kalpa's [chaturmukha] Brahma. Other than [Mukhya] Vayu, none can attain the post of Chaturmukha Brahma.

Sri Jagannatha dasaru, in his work, Harikathamruta-saara, kalpa sadhana sandhi has given more details on this topic.

2. If so, what will be the status of present Brahmadevaru? Chaturmuka Brahma

MT: This kalpa's Chaturmukha Brahma gets laya in Parabrahma and gets liberated from samsara. He takes with him all those sajjana-s who have completed sAdhana in this Brahma-kalpa.

This topic of his laya has been explained in the adhyaxAdhi karana of Brahma Sutra 4.2.4 and also the later ones.

3. Which work will be looked after by him?

MT: He doesn't look after any work in this samsara including shrushhTi kaarya. There is no sAdhana for anyone in moxa.

He stays in moxa enjoying his svarUpa ananda.

HKAS_25-08 ArOhaNa tAratamya saMdhi

atriaMgirarELu brahmana

putrarivarige samaru vishvA

mitra vaivasvataruIshAvEsha baladiMda

mitragiMtuttamarus vAhA

bhaRtR^ibhR^iguvu prasuti vishvA

mitra modalAdavarigiMtali mUvaruttamaru..........HKAS_25-08

In the previous stanza,JagannAtha dAsa had described 5 of the 7 sapta R^iShi-s

MT: Just to clarify:

Not all these sapta-R^ishhi-s belong to the current manvantara. I don't think Angirasa is a sapta-R^ishhi for this manvantara...

Ashta Maha Mantras

(1). What are the Ashta Maha Mantras. What are they?

MT: Shri Chalari quotes:

"praNavo.ashhTau vyAhR^itayo dvishhaT.h sAvitramAtrakAH

paurushhaM vaishNavaM cha iti jape krama udAhR^itaH"

praNava

Narayana-ashhTaxara

vyAhR^iti

matruka

Vasudeva-dvAdasAxara

gayathri

purusha sukta

shaDaxara-vishnu mantra

Note that it has to be learnt directly from a guru with angan-nyAsa, varna-nyAsa, pratipadya rUpa [along with anga, upaanga, ayudha and abharana], and niyamakarUpa-s. Not knowing the Devata, chandas [abhimAni] and R^ishhi, one gets adhama janma and nishphala etc.

[source: samaveda-brahmana quoted by Sri Vyasanakere in his edition of TSS].

Why are they considered more important than other mantras.

MT: These are the very basic set of mantra-s that do pratipadane of VirAdrUpi Bhagavan 'completely' in the *abhivyakti* krama.

Acharya gives utmost important to these 8, TSS 1.47:

"etatjj~nAnAtsamastaM cha j~nAtaM syAchchhadagocharam.h

etat.hjj~nApAtsamastAnAM mantrANAM jApako bhavet.h"

Knowing these eight, one gets the knowledge of all shabda-s.

Knowing them is as good as knowing all mantra-s.

How so?

1. Pranava: It comes first in the *abhivyakti* krama. It is the parama-mukhya-pratipadya of Sriman Narayana.

Pranava comprises of eight axara-s -

a, u, m, nAda, bindu, ghoshha, shanta and atishanta.

2. From the pranava, the mUla mantra -- narayana ashhtaxara manifests with eight axara-s.

3. From the first four axra-s of pranava, vyahruti emerges.

4. vyahruti and narayana ashtaxara together form the dvadasAxara.

5. The three vyahruti 'expands' into 3 part Gayathri.

6. tripAda-gayathri expands into PS. PS into all shabda-s.

7. Matruka: Narayana ashtaxara 'expands' into 50 axara-s [the 4th valaya of chakrabja mandala]

From 'A' kaara - svara-s/vowels

U kaara - ka varga

M - cha varga

Nada - Ta

bindu - ta

ghosha - pa,

shanta - antastha-s[ya, ra..]

atishanta - Ushmaxara-s[sa, shha..]

They in turn represent the entire tattva prapancha as mentioned in HKAS 6.25ff and its nyAsa concept is explained in HKAS 8.1,2,17, and 18.

8. Vishnu mantra -- shhaDaxara pratipadya Bhagavan. Depicting the purnaj~nAna, purna aishvarya, purna prabha, purna ananda purna teja and purna shakti. [see 3rd valaya of chakrabja mandala].

(2). When does the Aniruddha deha fall off.

MT: During the process of maha pralaya -- the laya krama is just the reverse of shrushhTi-krama.

Since the physical appearance is stated to be the mirror image of Aniruddha deha,

MT: Where is this mentioned?

can we assume that aniruddha deha falls off when the body dies?

MT: Which body you are referring to? Aniruddha deha is not made of panchabhUta. It is created before the creation of this brahmanda [MBTN 1.9], and thus it cannot 'go' when the panchabhUta deha dies.

But it is stated that all tatvabhimani devatas reside there. Then how?

MT: They reside as "prakAsha aMsha" -- not in their mUlarUpa.

tattvAbhimani-s get abhimAnittva of our panchabhUta-deha inside the brahmanda only. When the laya takes place,they withdraw their 'prakAsha' and merge with their higher entities.

Here are the 6th & 7th -

vii) aMgIrasa – was born from the face of brahma dEvaru. In the current vaivasvata manvaMtara, he was born from the agni kuMda of a yaj~na being performed by varuNa. vasude was the wife of aMgIrasa. He was gifted with 7 sons and 7 daughters. bR^ihaspati, uchathya & vayasya were the 3 great yOgi-s born to aMgIrasa. The pitR^i dEvata-s were born to him through his other wife called svadhe

MT: Not only Angirasa's birth was different in these two manvantara-s but his wife and children are also different.

The Angirasa who is one of the sapta-R^ishhi-s for Svayambhu manvantara has shraddha as his wife, and 4 daughters [apart from Uchathya and bR^ihaspati]:

Bhagavata 4.1.34:

"shraddha tvaN^girasaH patnI chatasro.asUta kanyakAH..

His four daughters are worshipped as the abhimAnini-s of amAvAsya, Pournami.

sinIvAli - abhimAni for krishna paxa Chaturdashi

Kuhu -- following AmAvasya

Anumati - abhimanini for shukla paxa Chaturdashi

rAkA - chaturdashi

[based on Sri Yadupathya's prakAshika].

The pitR^i dEvata-s were born to him through his other wife called svadhe.

MT: In the svayambhuva manvantara Svadha marries PitR^i-devata and begets Mena and vaitariNi.

In the later/Chaxusa manvantara, Angirasa as prajapati[not as sapta-R^ishhi] marries Svadha and Sati. Svadha begets PitR^i-devata-s as her children.[ BTN 6.6.19]

vaisvasvata – is one among the 14 manu-s. He is the adhipati for the current vaivasvata manvaMtara. He was born to vaivasva Aditya. His mother was saMj~nA dEvi (tvaShTR^i putri).

MT: If I am not mistaken, Sanj~na devi is the daughter of Vishvakarma.

Bhagavata:

"vivasvatashcha dve jAye vishvakarmasute ubhe |

saJNj~nA chhAyA cha rAjendra ye prAgabhihite tava || 8\.12\.8||

bhR^igu – was born from the heart of brahma dEvaru. His wife was called khyAti. laxmI dEvi took avatAra in khyAti.

MT: No, Laxmi did not take any such avatara.

HKAS_25-09 ArOhaNa tAratamya saMdhi

nAradOttamanagnigiMtali

vArinidhi pAdOttamanu yama

tArakEsha divAkararu shatarUparuttamaru

vArijAptanigiMta pravaha

mAruttOttama pravaha

mAraputraniruddha guru manu daxa shachi ratiyu..............HKAS_25-09

tArakEsha – is chaMdra, the adhipati for the 27 naxatra-s.

He is one among the navagraha-s.

I think you meant that Chandra is the controller of one ofthe jaDa graha-s.

His other name is sOma. In the current vaivasvata manvaMtara, he was born to dhaRma prajApati & vasumni. He is one among the aShTavasu-s.

MT: Chandra is not one of the ashTavasu-s.

Ashtavasu-s whom we worship in the morning [also in shrAddha] are:

Bhagavata: 6.6.11

"droNaH prANo dhruvo.arko.agni, doshho vastu, vibhAvasuH "

Note that in this very verse of HKAS, it is mentioned that the pradhAna vasu Agni is much lower than Chandra -- Chandra is in 12th kaxa while pradhana vasu Agni is 15, and the rest seven vasu-s are in the 18th kaxa.

Chandra is not the son of Dharma and Vasu[mni] -- The re-born Daxa prajapati, marries Asikni and begets 60 daughters.10 are given to Dharma, 27 to Chandra,

13 [plus 4] to Kashyapa, 2 each to Bhuta, Angira to kR^ishashva

Bhagavata: 6.6.1-2:

"tataH prAchetaso.asiknyAmanunItaH svayambhuvA |

sa shhashhTiM janayAmAsa duhitR^IH pitR^ivatsalAH ||

dadau sa dasha dharmAya kAshyapAya trayodasha |

kAlasya nayane yuktAH saptaviMshatimindave |

bhUtAN^giraHkR^ishAshvebhyo dvedve tAkrshhyasya chAparAH ||"

HKAS_30-12 daityatAratamya saMdhi

garuDa purANa refers:- "mithyA j~nAnE j~nAna buddhi duHkhEcha sukhabuddhi mAn" kali puruSha thinks that mithyA j~nAna is the real good j~nAna and that duHkha is the real sukha. That is the svarUpa of kali puruSha. A clarification is in order: if Kali were to just experience duHkha as sukha, then andhaM tamas would be immensely enjoyable to him, in contravention to all reason and other pramANas. Similarly, if Kali has incorrect knowledge of everything, then he would think that North is South, water can catch fire, etc., and would be completely dysfunctional

PT: One point that I think is worth emphasizing is:

Quote "Of the ayogins, the svarUpa-j~nAna of mukti-yogya-s is yathArtha only.That of nitya samsArins is mixed.That of others is ayathArtha only". Unquote

What is ayathartha and yathaartha?

yathaartha is understanding something the way it actually is, so ayathartha is obviously the opposite. It's interesting that there is a difference made between j~nana that acquired through sakshi (=jIva, the ultimate determiner of truth), and vrtti-j~nana, which may or may not be true (alternatively,we *think* we know something...whether we actually do or not is entirely different).

What if mukti-yogya's did not have yathArtha j~naana?

That would be disastrous!! They would essentially try to understand paramAtma,moksha, dharma, etc....but there would be an element of doubt to everything they study. In other words, they could never be sure whether what they learn about paramAtma--"satyaM j~naanaM anantam brahma.." is true or not.

In other words some things could be yathaartha others might not be, and they might not be able to tell the difference. To avoid all these problems, the *svarUpa* j~nana of those eligible for mukti (that is, satvik jIvas) must be yathaartha--that is, they always grasp things exactly the way they are. But there's a problem here as well. If we are satvik jIvas, and satvik jIvas always grasp things in a "yathaartha" fashion, we should never be wrong about anything...right?

Not necessarily, because a distinction is made between svarupa j~naana and vritti j~naana. Svarupa j~naana is always flawless for the reasons pointed out earlier(perhaps others can elaborate more if there are any mistakes in what I said). But other things that we *think* we know (but in reality...we may be correct or completely wrong, we can't be sure!)...that must be a function of vr~tti j~naana.

It's a bit difficult to explain, but by separating the svarupa jnaana from vritti jnaana it allows satvik souls to have a "sakshi" that always reveals things in a yathartha fashion (the truth of things, as they are) and a more superficial understanding of things (vrtti jnaana)...which may or may not be yathartha. The only way to really get to the truth-this is obvious:whatever we study we need to go to a deeper level. Then and only then will our "sakshi" reveal to us the truth of whatever subject matter we're studying.

The problem with tamasik jIvas is that they only content themselves with a superficial understanding, or rather misunderstanding, of the way the world is. That is they have a sort of "viparIta-jnaana"...they assume that what is wrong is what is actually right. Immoral acts are,in their opinion the "right course of action"..."prabhavanti ugrakarmANaH jagataM kShayanti cha".

Doing terrible deeds they destroy the world. Instead, if they were satvik souls, they would try to obtain true jnAna, really determine what the right course of action is, and tread the path of dharma. But that would go against their very nature and really tamasik souls would never think of such "satvik" actions!

HKAS_31-17 naivEdya samaRpaNa saMdhi

gouri saRvAMlasthaLenipaLu

shouri dAmOdarana tiLivudu

gouri pAnAMlastha saMkaruShaNana chiMtipudu

sArashaRkara guDadoLage vR^i

trAri irutiha vAsudEvana

sUrigaLu dhEniparu paramAdaradi saRvatra............HKAS_31-17

gouri = gourI dEvi (i.e. pARvatI dEvi)

saRvAMlasthaLenipaLu = is abhimAni for all acidic ingredients

shouri = son of naMdagOpa

dAmOdarana = dAmOdara nAmaka ParamAtma

tiLivudu = as aMtaRgata for gouri

gouripa = husband of gouri i.e. R^idra dEvaru

anAMlastha = in non-acidic eatables (that which is not acidic)

saMkaruShaNana chiMtipudu = meditate on saMkaRShaNa nAmaka ParamAtma

sAra = originally concetrated sweet ingredients

shaRkara guDadoLage = sugar, jaggery etc...

vR^itrAri = iMdra dEvaru who killed vR^itrAsura

irutiha = exists as abhimAni

vAsudEvana = vAsudEva nAmaka ParamAtma

sUrigaLu = j~nAni-s

saRvatra = ParamAtma who pervades at all places

dhEniparu paramAdaradi = meditate on His rUpa-s with proper anusaMdhAna

gouri is the abhimAni for acidic source of foods like Amla (Emblica Myrobalan, fruit of the plant embolic myrobalm), huNse kAyi (tamarind) etc… gouri is referred as 'saRvAmlasthaLu'. gouri is another name for pARvatI dEvi. One must meditate on the aMtaRgata dAmOdara rUpa of ParamAtma

No. Food abhimAni dEvata aMtaRgata bhagavadrUpa

1 acidic foods gourI damOdara

2 non-acidic foods R^idra saMkaRShaNa

3 sweet iMdra vAsudEva

PT: When we think about how our tongue is designed to detect taste, it is actually quite elegant.There is a wiki page that describes how there are 5 major tastes (we used to be taught that there were 4 tastes, but now they've changed it!!), but there is a reference on the bottom to the "Arusuvai" (which language?) - how in Indian science we divide tastes into 6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_taste

http://www.ayurshop.com/diet/rasas.html

The elegance can be seen from a scientific perspective. Many of you may recall from school the pH scale: low pH means acidity, high pH means it is a base. A pH of 7 is right in the middle and it is neutral. The foods we eat can either be

1)Amla = low pH - acid. Anything we eat that is sour is acidic. That is why oranges and lemons are sour (they have citric acid). You can look at the ingredients for many processed foods that have a sour taste, and you will probably find some kind of acid listed. Of course these are weak acids. Strong acids would do quite a bit of harm to our bodies (yet strangely enough, we have a strong acid in our stomach: hydrochloric acid)

2) high pH = base. When food gets stuck to a plate, how do you clean it? Many of the household cleaners you have (bleach, ammonia, etc.)are bases. They neutralize acids, so when mixed with water they wash away. However, our foods rarely contain these bitter bases (I think Karela is bitter...I don't know what is in it).

3)neutral pH = pure water has a pH of 7, but when you react a base with an acid you also get a salt. For example, if you were to mix NaOH with HCl...both of which are very dangerous, you get harmless salt (NaCl) +water (HOH)!!

anAmla means not acidic, but it can either be neutral (a salt), or bitter (a base). I am not sure in the context of HKS.

Here we have 3 of the "shaDrasaas"--salty, sour, and bitter foods.For some reason the wikipedia describes water as being "kashaaya".Maybe any liquid that has a pH of 7 (neither sour nor bitter) is astringent? Our tongue can detect these tastes, plus we can detect spicy foods and sweet foods.

Why should we have the ability to detect sugar? Again, from biology we have read how every cell in our body needs glucose for energy. All carbohydrates are broken down into simple sugars, plus fruits have fructose, which is why they are sweet.

The opposite of sweet is spicy, and we can detect spicy foods as well, so we can see that there is a balance in what our tongue can detect (just the way we saw that the tongue can detect sour AND bitter foods)

Also a question can be raised--if so few of the foods we eat are bitter, why do we have the ability to detect bitter foods? This too shows intelligent design on the part of the God who created us. Bitter foods are typically dangerous for the body. If by accident we ingest some kind of household cleaner, we need to be able to know right away that something is wrong. Being able to detect bitter foods is almost like a warning (though of course there are bitter vegetables that are good for us too)

Why do we care about salts? Salts are not always bad...they are needed by our body as well. Salts (ionic compounds) completely dissolve in water. So ions like Sodium and potassium are vital for our body, as long as we don't take them in excess. Our tongue is specially designed to detect these potassium, calcium, magnesium, & sodium containing salts as well. But of course, since anything in excess is bad, we know right away when a food contains too much salt (since high salt increases blood pressure & isn't good for us).

If God had not given us the ability to detect all these different tastes, imagine what our life would be like? Forget about enjoying our food, we wouldn't know if we are getting the right amount of salt,sugar, etc. in our diets!! That is why we must be grateful not only to Paramatma but also the abhimani devatas mentioned below for having been given a tongue that can detect all the different types of food sour body needs, as well as what it doesn't need.

HKAS_32-51 kaxa tAratamya saMdhi

The group of those who constantly chant / sing the oly Names of ParamAtma are manuShya gaMdhaRva-s JagannAtha dAsa pays obeisance to them.This concept of manushya gandharva-s is intriguing, because with respect to deva gandharva-s, we can understand that they chant the Lord's glories in swarga and other deva loka-s. But what of manushya gandharvas, because obviously they're not of the same level as the deva gandharva-s, and so they couldn't possibly reside in deva loka-s?

MT: The category of jiva is based on the svarUpa -- its upAsana krama, the kind of sAxAtkAra, and not on sthUla deha or the place of residence.

Deva gandharva-s are those who directly get orders from the devata-s whereas manushya gandharva-s have the yogyata to get orders thr' deva-gandharva-s.

Shastra-s say that the mukti-yogya jIva-s are of five kinds.

"mukti-yogyAH panJNchavidhAH devarshhipitR^i chakravarti

manushhyottama bhedAt.h"

If a question arises as to what about gandharva-s and others[siddha, sAdhya chArana-s.]who are not mentioned.

The answer is that gandharva-s are of two kinds. One group comes under the broader umbrella of devata and other group under manushya-s.

By "manushya" category what is meant is:

1. They are "niramsha jIva-s" [do not have multiple deha dharana at the _same_ time].

2. Their upAsana belongs to the category of "karma yogi" [cf. sandhi 23].

3. The bimba darshana is restricted in nature[like within their own deha/pratika].

Manushya gandharva-s are the highest in the category of niramsha jIva-s.

In that case, do we assume that they reside here on earth,

MT: They can reside or do "sanchara" depending on their prArabdha.

and that people in our tradition, like Vidhyabhushan and other singers/devotees, are manushya gandharvas? Would that be a reasonable assumption?

MT: I don't think so. One cannot assume based on what they do for a living.

Like any other aparoxins, manushya gandharva-s bhakti is "nirantara prema pravaha" to the Lord who is dearer than self, family and all jada vastu-s.

Aside from gandharva-s, trna jiiva-s are no mentioned. It's given in HKAS that they're also eligible for mukti, so I am confused as to why it stops with manushyottama-s.

MT: The mukti yogya jIva-s are *broadly* divided into 5 types.

"tatra muktiyogyAH paJNchavidhAH devarshhipitR^ichakravarti manushhyottamabhedAt.h"

Sri Vedagarbhasuri in his Sri Madhvasiddhanta-sangraha clarifies:

"manushyottamastu dvividhAH | chaturgunopAsakA ekagunopAsakAsh cha

iti" tR^inajIvA ekagunopAsakAH |

tadvyatiriktAshchaturgunopAsakAH"

Manushyottama-s are of two types. Chaturguna upAsaka-s

(sachhidAnanda-Atmeti mAnushhaiH = The Lord is "sat" (flawless),

"chit" (Personified knowledge),

"Ananda" (personified Bliss),

"AtmA"

(my Svami or controller as He is all pervading and All-controller)

and ekaguna upAsaka-s.TR^iNa jIva-s come under the sub-division of manushhyottama-s. They do upAsana of only one guna of the Lord namely "Atma" [svAmittva upAsana]

3. The bimba darshana is restricted in nature [like within their own deha/pratika].

Can you please explain this a bit further?

MT: Broadly, the bimba darshana is of two kinds. PratikAlambana andapratikalambana-s. Their destination from the final body [gamya sthAna] in the amukta-sthana is also different.

1. Those with knowledge see their own bimbarUpi, Sri Hari in pratIka-s.This is of two kinds -- seeing inside their deha-pratIka, and outside pratIka-s [along with inside].

2. Seeing the bimbarUpi present everywhere --Vyaptadharshana.They do not need a pratIka. All devata-s, 100 rishhi-s, 100 chakravati-s,100 gandharva-apsara-s come under this category of apratikAlambana upAsaka-s.

I thought except devata-s and rshi-s, no mukti-yOgyajiiva could be aparoxin. I assumed like chakravarti-s, manushyottama-s> and other mukti yOgya jiva-s, manushyagandharva-s attain aparoxa at a later stage, unlike devata-s who're aparoxins right from the beginning.

MT: Even devata-s are not 'born' with aparoxa. sva-yogya aparoxa sAdhana is the only path for moxa and it comes only thr' sAdhana.Devata-s come to shrushhti with "devattva", i.e, sad-pratibha / intutive right knowledge due to "Vishnuprasada" just as a baby[male/female] has the potential to become a male/female right at the time of birth but manifests at a later time. This pratibhA increases in clarity in steps through sAdhana and then they see Him [aparoxa] directly everywhere[quoted by acharya in Gita-tatparya # 13.26]

VAYU IN SWARUPA DEHA

Q: As per the commentary of Sri Sankarshana Odeyaru[SSO] on HKAS, Lord indwells in our svarUpa dEha containing chinmana and chitEndriyas. None can enter the soul/svarUpa dEha of a jeevi. He alone can and he alone is anumAtra svarUpi. No place for any tattvAbhimAnis here inside the soul.

Further exterior, the liNga dEha is divided into two – anAdi liNga dEha where Lakshmi alone rules being the abhimani for this space [Ref: slOka 13 of HKAS, udAttAnudAtta saNdhi of SSO] alongwith Lord and vaisheyika liNga dEha where alongwith the divine couples, vAyu, Brahma and their consorts have their sannidhAna. No place for any tattvAbhimAnis except parAshukla trayAs in this space.

Further exterior, in the Aniruddha dEha the rest of divinities have their sannidhAna.

This narration of Sri Sankarshana Odeyaru appreciates the fact that Vishnu is the all-pervasive unlike Lakshmi whose pravesha is limited to liNga dEha and she is barred inside the svarUpa dEha of a jeeva. When it comes to vAyu, he is incapable to penetrate the anAdi liNga dEha and the svarUpa dEha of a jeevi but exist in vaisheshika liNga dEha, the area impenetrable for divinities such as garuda, sEsha and rudra.

However, Sri vyAsanakere writes in his work on HKAS that vAyu has pravEsha/sannidhAna alongwith Lord in the sphere of a soul / svarUpa dEha. I am not aware of any other works which oppose Sri Sankarshana Odeyaru’s view point, who says that the names – mAtArishwa, vAyu, Brahma etc., in the HKAS slOkas and the pramanas, are not the vAyu padasta jeevas but paramAthma himself bearing these names controls from within the svarUpa dEha, while vyAsanakere takes the names literally and ascribe capability of penetration in svarUpa dEha to vAyu, the jeevi.

Don’t know what Acharya says on this. Could anyone point me to source to refer to know the exact truth? My hunch is that if vAyu has a pravEsha in our svarUpa dEha then that sannidhAna, if continued unaltered, even after liberation of a jeeva, will put a burden on the very name – vishnu, the all pervasive. Definitely, vAyu is not in the same league of vishnu.

Sri Sankarshana Odeyaru has written exhaustively on this topic which I somehow referred hastily, due to confusion arising out of referring Sri vyAsanakere’s work. There are pramAnAs that he quoted as gleaned from Acharya’s works [viz., bhAshya on BrUp etc.,], to prove that Vishnu alone indwells in the svarUpa dEha of a jIvi in which there is no pravEsha for others. I shall refer the avlbl source and collect my thoughts and come back if necessary.

KT: At the very outset, would like to point out this. The printed version of Sri Odeyaru's commentary is apparently from the notes of some disciples of Sri Odeyaru and so not very authentic. Thus it has some errors. One such is about Vayu Pravesha in Svarupa deha. Thus the commentaries have to be verified against Acharya's works and the the Tikas and classical Tippanis on them.

In fact, The Mula of Sri HKAS itself tells that Vayu Pravesha is there. The printed version of Odeyaru's commentary does a lot of gymnastics to explain that to say that there is no Vayu Pravesha.

The logic that was employed by printed version of Sri Odeyaru's commentary to say that there is no pravesha for Vayu, has many flaws.

For ex, "muktAnAmapi sarveShAm viShnureva niyAmakaH" (Only Vishnu is niyAmaka for liberated souls).

The logic goes on to say that here others like Brahma and Vayu are excluded and so there is no pravesha for Brahma and Vayu in SvarUpadeha. The thing to note is that here the niyAmakatva (which comes from svAtantrya guNa) is there only with Sri Hari. This is not about Pravesha into SvarUpadeha - but niyamana of svarUpadeha.

Further the commentary starts with the explanation that there is scope for confusion -

"OMdu rItyA nODidare brahma vAyu devaru ubhayarU svarUpadalli iddaMte Agatade.

OMdu rItyA nODidare brahma vAyugaLu svarUpadalli illa eMta Agatade.

"(If we see in one way, both Brahma and Vayu are in svarUpa deha. If we see in one way, both Brahma and Vayu are not in svarUpa deha.). Then it is mentioned that the confusion will be removed, but in the process, only more confusion is added.

In that commentary itself some pramanas are given from Nyaya vivaraNa, Pavamana samhita and Prakasha samhita. Yet a lot of effort is made to alternately interpret those pramanas.

Sri Prabhanjanacharya gave those pramanas and a couple more as well in his HKAS, as mentioned by Sri Sukumar.

Since Sri Sukumar already noted those, I won't reproduce the Pramana verse/texts/hymns, etc, but just mention them.

Gharmasukta from Rugveda, Sri Narahari tirtha virachita Bhagavata tAtaparya dIpika, NyayavivaraNa, tAmraparniya NyayavivaraNa TipaaNi, Pavamana samhita and two different locations of Prakasha samhita.

Now quote from Sukumar: "I am not aware of any other works which oppose Sri Sankarshana Odeyaru’s view point, who says that the names – mAtArishwa, vAyu, Brahma etc., in the HKAS slOkas and the pramanas, are not the vAyu padasta jeevas but paramAthma himself bearing these names controls from within the svarUpa dEha, while vyAsanakere takes the names literally and ascribe capability of penetration in svarUpa dEha to vAyu, the jeevi."

Now the question is - Should these shabdas in these pramanas be taken as Vayu para or Vishnupara?

If taken as Vayu para, are these going to conflict with any other niravakasha pramanas? No. So, there is no need to make these as Vishnupara. Further Shri tAmraparNiya NyayavivaraNa says -

"bhagavasannidhigatena mukhyaprANena jIvasthitena...". This is explicitly attributing to MukhyapraNa and by saying bhagavatsannidhigatenaa, it is explicitly saying that these shabdas are Vayu para only.

Now if we take HKAS verse -

"garuDa sheSha bhavAdi nAmava

dharisi pavana svarUpa dehadi

karaNa niyAmakanu tAnAgippa hari yaMte

sarasijAsana vANi bhArati

bharatariMdoDagUDi liMgadi

irutiharu mikkAditEyarigillavA sthAna |"

This gives clinching argument. "In svarUpadeha, Pavana stays as karaNa niyAmaka like Sri Hari". By saying "like Sri Hari", it is conclusive that these term Pavana is not for Sri Hari.

The printed Odeyaru's commentary takes "Pavana svarUpa dehadi" to mean SvarUpa deha of Pavana. It does not make sense to talk about Svarupadeha of Pavana, when the context is for any svarUpa deha. Further "hari yaMte" becomes futile.

Further the term "mikkAditEyarigillavA sthAna" (The other gods do not have that status). This expression is meaningful only for Brahma, Vayu, Vani and Bharati from the context also, but not for Sri Hari.

Also, one must note that the terms "Brahma" and "Vayu" refer to padavis. Thus when abhimAnitva is given, the jivas in these padavis do svarUpa pravesha. When it comes to Brahma, if Jivas go to mokSha along with Brahma, then Brahma continues in svarupa dehas of all those jivas that are associated with that Brahma. If Brahma goes to mokSha and the jivas are still in samsAra, then Brahma will come out of svarupa deha of those jivas and next Brahma and Vayu have pravesha in svarUpa deha.

In case of anAdi liMga deha, befor coming into sRijya state, only Sri Hari and Lakshmi are there.

As far as Lakshmi is concerned, one must be aware that Lakshmi has "deshataH and kAlataH" same pervasion as Sri Hari (hence she is called samana). So, she is there wherever Sri Hari is. She is nitya aviyogini.

Now quote from Sukumar: My hunch is that if vAyu has a pravEsha in our svarUpa dEha then that sannidhAna, if continued unaltered, even after liberation of a jeeva, will put a burden on the very name – vishnu, the all pervasive. Definitely, vAyu is not in the same league of vishnu.

I dont understand what really the objection is. Just because Lakshmi and Vayu are there in SvarUpa deha, and Brahma continuing even in Moksha, why will that make Vayu in the same league as Vishnu? Even in Svarupadeha, Vayu is worshipping Sri Hari. This in fact stresses all supremacy of Vishnu further. As a svatantra being, He gives this special privilege of worshipping Him to LakShmi and Vayu that too as per their yogyata - LakShmi having crores of times higher privilege than Vayu and also anAdi and anaMta for Lakshmi (kOTi gunadim adhikalu Ramaa. anaMtagunadiM adhika Sri Hari). For Vayu and Brahma, this svarUpa deha pravesha has a beginning (sAdi). It is 'sAmta" or not as appropriate.