Saturday June 20 - 11am PT/ 7pm UK /8pm CET
Attendees
Edwin
Ingrid
Beata
Discuss Next Week.
is there additional training needed
what would ongoing support look like
What kind of issues could arise in these groups that the facilitator needs to address
is there a different type of capacity needed for holding these circles.
need to be a ECF Trainer
have
how different is a paid empathy circle from a paid circle. what are the benefits over a unpaid. there needs to offer additional features over an unpaid circle
The meeting focused on the strategic development, structural design, and operational challenges of launching "Paid Empathy Circles" under the umbrella of the Empathy Center. Participants weighed the benefits of paid circles against the traditional free model, addressed legal/liability distinctions from professional psychotherapy, discussed how to structure the curriculum around universal human themes, and proposed a prototyping phase to test the model dynamically.
The group explored why a paid model provides unique advantages over a free, drop-in format:
Predictability and Safety: Paid circles would operate as closed groups (e.g., 6 to 8 consecutive weeks) rather than drop-in sessions. This consistency fosters deeper emotional intimacy, momentum, and a heightened sense of safety.
Participant Commitment: Charging money signals value and establishes a stronger personal commitment, encouraging participants to "show up more fully."
Movement Sustainability: Providing an income source directly supports activists and facilitators, preventing burnout and allowing them to dedicate more time to the empathy movement.
Measurable Value: A paid framework naturally encourages robust feedback mechanisms so facilitators can pace the experience and measure shifting emotional states.
A significant portion of the meeting was dedicated to navigating the boundary between mutual support and the regulated therapeutic world:
The Legal Line: Participants explicitly noted that terms like "therapy" or "treatment" cannot legally be used to avoid strict licensing, insurance, and data collection liabilities (which Speaker 2 highlighted from their private practice experience).
Framing the Practice: The model should be explicitly positioned as personal growth, mutual support, or self-care. Ingrid used the metaphor of sunlight and nature—naturally therapeutic and healing, but not classified as medicine or a pharmaceutical product.
Self-Led Depth & Agency: Unlike a standard therapy session where a therapist might actively dissect a client's resistance, the rigid time structure of an Empathy Circle offers participants total agency over how deep they want to go.
The team discussed the ideal parameters required to hold a deep, paid space:
Group Size and Time: The group agreed that a 90-minute timeframe is ideal, capped at a maximum of 6 participants to maintain intimacy.
Time Allocation: Within 90 minutes, each person would be guaranteed at least 3 turns of a minimum of 4 minutes each.
The Power of Equality: The structure enforces absolute fairness. It prevents an individual's personal trauma or a "big drama" from dominating the collective energy of the space, teaching participants the relational habit of stepping out of their own worlds to actively listen to others.
To facilitate transition from cognitive overthinking to deep presence, the group heavily advocated for body-centered integration:
Landing in the Body: Incorporating 15 to 30 minutes of somatic work, breathwork, focusing techniques, or vagal toning at the beginning of a circle allows participants to drop their analytical minds.
Emergence: Past experiences (such as a workshop in Phoenix and the Empathy Summit) proved that starting with somatic grounding naturally leads to incredibly deep, authentic, and unscripted sharing.
The team debated how the Empathy Center should position itself legally regarding independent facilitators:
Two Potential Frameworks: 1. The Empathy Center directly hosts and markets the paid circles (assuming direct liability and requiring Errors and Omissions [E&O] insurance). 2. The Empathy Center provides an open-source framework/policy for independent agents to operate completely separately.
Certification and Policies: The board needs to establish clear policies regarding whether the name "Empathy Circle" requires a specific level of training or certification to avoid liability and protect the integrity of the brand.
Next Meeting Agenda: The group will meet next week to explicitly map out:
Whether additional facilitator training is required for paid sessions.
What ongoing "supervision" (defined in the German sense as a peer-support/continuing education space rather than monitoring) looks like.
What high-stakes behavioral or emotional issues could arise that standard facilitator training doesn't cover.
Prototyping a Trial Circle: Edwin proposed establishing a 4-week trial support circle consisting of 5–6 people to experientially model and refine the process, utilizing specific deep themes (such as life transitions, grief, or loneliness).
Outreach: Edwin will invite Maheep (who successfully integrates the practice into couples therapy), Vicky Nolan, and her UK colleagues to join the planning and prototyping loop. Edwin will also extend an invitation through the newsletter if needed.
Document Collaboration: Ingrid and Edwin will continue consolidating their AI research (across Claude, Gemini, DeepSeek, and Meta) regarding therapy distinctions and market demand into the shared workroom document.
The meeting discussed the potential benefits and structure of paid empathy circles. Key points included the enhanced predictability and safety due to consistent group participation, the potential for deeper exploration of specific topics, and the need for facilitators to undergo additional training and supervision. The group debated the liability and legal considerations, the importance of maintaining the structure for fairness, and the potential for paid circles to provide a financial return for facilitators. They also considered the value of somatic practices and the need for ongoing support and feedback mechanisms to ensure effectiveness.
[ ] @Edwin Rutsch - Edit the shared workspace document for the Paid Circles Project and grant edit permissions to the other participants so they can contribute notes.
[ ] @Edwin Rutsch - Contact Vicky and her two colleagues to invite them to join the next meeting and participate in the paid empathy circle experiment.
[ ] @Edwin Rutsch - Add an invitation to the newsletter describing the paid empathy circle project and inviting interested therapists to participate in the next meeting and potential pilot series.
[ ] @Edwin Rutsch - Organize and run a small pilot paid empathy circle next week with a group of therapists (around six people) to experiment with the format and gather feedback.
[ ] @Edwin Rutsch - Prepare next week’s meeting agenda to include a deeper discussion on whether additional training and ongoing support are needed for paid empathy circle facilitators, and on related liability and capacity issues.
[ ] Post the AI-generated research on therapy, liability, and related topics into the shared document under an "AI" heading for the group to review.
[ ] Send an email to therapists who have completed the empathy circle trainings to inform them about the paid empathy circle project and invite them to participate.
Edwin Rutsch discusses the benefits of running empathy circles through AI to capture insights.
Speaker 1 outlines the benefits of a paid empathy circle, including enhanced predictability, safety, and progress due to consistent group participation.
Speaker 1 suggests a set of sessions with a specific topic to attract people interested in deeper exploration.
Speaker 1 mentions the need for facilitators to have the capacity to hold the group and questions if additional training or supervision is required.
Edwin Rutsch shares insights from therapists like Beata, who use empathy circles for conflict resolution and couples therapy.
Speaker 2 shares experiences from their private psychotherapy practice, including running a group with a friend and the need for recertification.
Edwin Rutsch and Speaker 2 discuss the differences between free and paid empathy circles, including the need for liability considerations and additional training for facilitators.
Speaker 1 raises concerns about liability when the organization markets events, suggesting the need for careful consideration.
Speaker 1 and Speaker 2 discuss the legal requirements for running a private practice, including insurance and data collection.
Edwin Rutsch emphasizes the need to avoid using the word "therapy" to avoid strict regulations.
Speaker 1 and Speaker 2 discuss the challenges of collecting personal data and the differences between the United States and Europe in data protection.
Edwin Rutsch and Speaker 1 discuss the need for a policy to clarify responsibilities and liabilities when the Empathy Center hosts or encourages paid empathy circles.
Edwin Rutsch and Speaker 1 discuss the structure of paid empathy circles, including the importance of a consistent format and the role of the facilitator.
Speaker 2 shares insights from their experience with Thomas Hubel's practice group, including the need for recertification and ongoing support.
Edwin Rutsch and Speaker 1 discuss the potential need for additional training and supervision for facilitators of paid empathy circles.
Speaker 2 emphasizes the importance of a warm presence and the role of the facilitator in creating a safe space for participants.
Speaker 1 suggests exploring specific topics for paid empathy circles, such as commitment in relationships and big life changes.
Speaker 2 shares their interest in exploring topics like grief, loneliness, and joy, and the potential for different topics to attract participants.
Edwin Rutsch and Speaker 1 discuss the importance of deepening sharing in paid empathy circles and the potential benefits of somatic practices and meditation.
Speaker 2 emphasizes the importance of being present and allowing space for emergence in the sharing process.
Edwin Rutsch suggests modeling paid empathy circles with a group of interested participants to experiment with the process.
Speaker 1 and Speaker 2 discuss the importance of choosing a topic that encourages deeper sharing and the potential benefits of somatic practices.
Edwin Rutsch and Speaker 1 discuss the need for a clear distinction between paid and unpaid empathy circles and the potential benefits of paid circles.
Speaker 2 emphasizes the importance of measuring the value of paid empathy circles and the potential for feedback mechanisms to improve facilitation.
Edwin Rutsch and Speaker 1 discuss the need to invite more participants for the next meeting to explore the topic of paid empathy circles further.
Speaker 2 suggests inviting psychotherapists and other interested individuals to participate in the experiment.
Edwin Rutsch and Speaker 1 discuss the potential for a four-session trial of paid empathy circles to test the process and gather feedback.
Speaker 2 emphasizes the importance of having a clear understanding of the benefits of paid empathy circles and the potential for additional training and support for facilitators.
Zoom Meeting summary
The meeting focused on developing a paid empathy circle concept as an alternative to traditional therapy, with Ingrid leading the discussion based on her concerns about the hierarchical nature of therapy while recognizing the value of structured support groups. The group discussed key differences between paid and free empathy circles, including enhanced predictability, deeper topic exploration, smaller group sizes of six people, and 90-minute sessions with specific facilitator training requirements. Beata shared her experience facilitating Thomas Hubel practice groups and suggested including somatic practices to help participants ground themselves before sharing deeply, while the group explored legal liability concerns and the need for additional training beyond basic empathy circle facilitation. The discussion included potential topics like relationship development, big life changes, and grief, with the group agreeing to model a paid circle themselves and potentially invite more participants, including psychotherapists, to explore the concept further in future meetings.
The group discussed developing paid empathy circles as an alternative to traditional therapy. Ingrid explained her concerns about positioning the offering as therapy due to liability issues and licensing requirements, instead proposing it as a form of mutual support or personal growth. Beata shared her experience facilitating free practice groups through Thomas Hubel's organization and noted the potential benefits of paid circles including predictable structure, deeper exploration of topics, and facilitator compensation. The group agreed on a structure of 90-minute sessions with maximum 6 participants, maintaining the same equality-based format as free empathy circles while potentially incorporating focused topics and additional materials between sessions.
The group discussed ways to deepen empathy circles, focusing on choosing specific topics and incorporating somatic practices. Edwin suggested modeling different group dynamics and experimenting with physical elements like mirroring feelings, while Beata proposed opening with somatic work to help participants become more present. Ingrid shared positive experiences from a workshop in Phoenix where breathwork and vagal toning practices led to deeper sharing. The group agreed to potentially schedule a series of four experimental sessions with additional participants to further explore these ideas.
The group discussed organizing additional Empathy Circles, with Edwin suggesting contacting Vicki and other interested psychotherapists. Beata agreed to help identify potential participants, though noted scheduling challenges due to therapists' busy schedules. Ingrid raised organizational considerations about offering additional training, including potential legal liabilities and income opportunities for the organization if circles were hosted on their website.
The group discussed the challenges and considerations for implementing empathy circles, focusing on demand, training, and supervision needs. Edwin raised questions about demand and sustainability, while Ingrid suggested exploring specific topics like liability, training, or target groups in more depth during the next meeting. Beata shared insights about supervision from her psychotherapy practice, emphasizing the importance of ongoing support and community check-ins for facilitators. The team agreed to continue the discussion next week, focusing on whether additional training is needed and what kind of ongoing support facilitators might require.
The team discussed requirements and considerations for facilitators of paid empathy circles, including necessary training, capacity building, and the distinction between paid and unpaid circles. Ingrid and Beata highlighted that paid circles should offer additional value, such as deeper exploration and more specific feedback mechanisms, while emphasizing the importance of measurable outcomes and participant commitment. The group agreed on the need to clearly define what makes a paid circle different and to gather more specific feedback to help facilitators adjust their approach accordingly. Ingrid committed to sharing AI research findings in the meeting document.
The group discussed implementing a paid empathy circle initiative, with Edwin having the idea for some time and Ingrid showing interest after a recent board meeting. They explored how AI tools like Claude can assist in creative processes but emphasized the need for critical thinking when using them. The team agreed to invite more people to join the initiative next week, including checking with Vicki and her colleagues, with plans to eventually establish 5-6 circles that could run for 4-week trials.
Ingrid's AI Search - The Case for the Facilitator Getting Paid
This is actually a strong and defensible position, and here's the honest argument for it:
Being deeply heard is a real service with real value.
Consider:
A skilled facilitator creates and holds a space that most people never experience in daily life — a space of genuine, unhurried attention and non-judgmental listening. That is rare and valuable
We pay for yoga instructors, meditation teachers, life coaches, and personal trainers — none of whom are licensed therapists, all of whom contribute meaningfully to wellbeing. A skilled Empathy Circle facilitator belongs in exactly that category
The healing effect of feeling understood is well documented. Carl Rogers himself demonstrated that the therapeutic conditions — empathy, unconditional positive regard, congruence — produce measurable change. The Empathy Circle delivers those conditions in a group setting. The fact that it isn't called therapy doesn't diminish its effect
Payment also signals value to participants. Free things are often unconsciously treated as optional or low-stakes. A modest fee increases commitment, attendance, and the seriousness with which participants engage
Payment allows facilitators to invest in their own training, supervision, and development — which directly benefits participants. Volunteerism is noble but unsustainable at scale. If the practice is going to grow and professionalize, facilitators need a viable income model
Think of it as paying for skilled human presence — something increasingly scarce and increasingly needed in an isolated, screen-mediated world
Will there be interest in taking part? What is demand?