The Familial Role of the Daughter: Shattering Heteronormativity as a Gay South Asian

Season 1, Episode 1

In this episode, Fareea and Tarchithaa introduce the EQIL project and get into their lived experiences on how the role of the daughter makes it difficult to transcend the boundary of queerness. Get to know the hosts as they kick off this season exploring religion and spirituality within the Queer Immigrant BIPOC experience!

Find us on Instagram @theeqilproject.

This season of the EQIL Podcast is sponsored by the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation.

Full Episode Transcript

Tarchithaa: Hi, everyone, and welcome to The EQIL Podcast. My name is Tarchithaa and I'm co- hosting this along with Fareea. Fareea, you want to introduce yourself?

Fareea: Hi, I'm Fareea. I go by he/ him, or they/ them pronouns. I am 22 years old and will have graduated from Fordham by the time this comes out. And some background about me is that I am Indo Caribbean and Muslim.

Both of my parents immigrated from Guyana, so I'm part of the South Asian diaspora. And I identify as transgender and bisexual.

Tarchithaa: I'm Tarchithaa , I go by she/ her pronouns and I was born and raised in Malaysia. I'm Tamil. I... fully, like, speak, read, and write Tamil, and I also am.

I am queer. And I also would have graduated by Fordham [00:01:00] University by the time this episode comes out and the EQIL podcast is actually part of a broader project called just the EQIL project and EQIL E. Q. I. L. stands for Empowering Queer Immigrant Lives and it's an initiative that me and Fareea started off actually as part of a research project to which actually huge shout out to the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation. This podcast and other media projects of this project so far have been funded by them, and so thank you to them. Um, but yeah, you wanna, Fareea you wanna talk about, like, more of what, we want to do with EQIL, the EQIL project as a whole.

Fareea: The EQIL project is aimed at uplifting immigrant narratives from queer and trans people of color. And we wanted to shed light on intersectionality in the queer community because it's often overlooked, especially in academia and [00:02:00] research.

Tarchithaa: We want to put out something that is very collaborative and we want this project to grow into something beyond just media projects. And so we thank you for listening to our very first episode of the podcast.

Cool. So we do have a topic for today. I wanted to talk about being expected to play a specific familial role and how that impacts the lived experience of being a queer person especially when you're growing up in a I guess like in a South Asian household. I guess specifically like the role,, at least for me, um like the role of a daughter Um, and how, I guess just like how that, how that impacts everything we do. That is to say we're both 22 years old, so I think most of our life as of now has been strongly impacted by a familial expectation. Um, I'm sure that will change the older we get.

So yeah, any thoughts Fareea?

Fareea: For context, I'm a trans man. So I was assigned female at birth. So I did grow [00:03:00] up with a very, and I'm not currently out to my parents, so I grew up also with that kind of like daughter role and yeah, as you were saying, it's like very centric to kind of the family structure.

Tarchithaa: Definitely. I mean, like for me at least it was like definitely started off with the role of being a daughter. I think I understood like my relationship to gender, tied into being a good daughter or like being a, Um, a well behaved daughter if that makes sense.

I won't say perfect, because I think I always knew that, like, I could never achieve that kind of thing. Um, but to be a daughter that makes my parents proud. And that makes my extended family proud and stuff like that. And, like, Even as a kid there was this understanding that for me that, like, oh, the way to make my family members proud when I get older, the way I perceived it, um, and this is, like, no, like, I'm not, not on my parents, I think [00:04:00] it's, like, what I picked up from, like, seeing, seeing how things are and, like, And even though my parents directly didn't say things to me, it was just like understanding what would make them happy sort of thing.

Um, was this idea that like, oh, when I am older, like after I'm successful and I have a career or whatever, like I will be getting married, I will have kids. Um, and, and then the older and older I got, I'm saying this older and older, as in like going from like age eight to ten, twelve, like heading into puberty.

Um, it became very much into just like, you know, Well, that was the whole thing of like no dating, right? So like don't talk to any boys, which is also heteronormative in the first place, but like don't get involved in anything romantic, anything sexual sort of thing. And I think when I was, before I moved to the United States, like I thought that I wouldn't be doing any of that well until I was like 25.

It was like this idea that you don't do anything till you graduate college. And it's like, you get your degree first, and then you [00:05:00] can think about these things or whatever. But at the same time, like, dating around isn't particularly, um, recommended. And so then there's this expectation that, like, the first person you're dating has to be the person that you end up with. And I'm saying this as like societal expectations. And the expectation like God forbid you don't end up with the first person you're with. It's like, Ooh, what else was she willing to give up? Um, sort of thing. So then like, even at a really young age, I was just like, okay, now it's not the time to focus on these things or whatever.

Not until I graduate college, but my first partner better be the perfect, like essentially the perfect partner. Um, I'm saying partner, the man, it had to be a man. So the first person that I'm with had to be like a perfect, well behaved man that also cares about his family and goes to the temple and stuff like that. And then we get married and it's just like an expectation. So like you do have kids, like you continue the legacy sort of [00:06:00] thing. The older I got the more being a good daughter meant eventually becoming a good wife and then becoming a good mother. Like it was it became all so directly connected.

It's like you couldn't It's like you couldn't step to one without having the other. Like, there was no skipping good daughter to good mother. There was no, like, good wife or good it was just, like, all three had to happen. There was like, this line of order. Not like someone's going around being, like, this is how it needs to be, but it's, like, that's just what I started to understand. Um, playing this family role to almost to ensure that my parents are never put in a position where they are talked badly because I knew that even if I did something even if it was my decision, it would fall back on my parents and it would fall back on my family. And so then there is no individual agency at that point, right?

Like, there is, there is, because, like, obviously, if you have parents who give you that agency, who don't care about what other [00:07:00] people think you have that. I was lucky enough to somewhat have that. But I also knew no matter what I did, even though my parents were okay with it or whatever it will fall back on them, no matter what I did. Like, I just graduated college and I'm, , taking a gap year. And in some ways, that's gonna, like, social perception or whatever, it's gonna fall on them that like, I'm taking a gap year or whatever before I go to higher education. If I don't choose to go into higher education, that's also gonna reflect on them.

I guess to wrap it up, I think because of familial expectations, even though I was really young , I remember being 11 years old and being like, this is how I would be a good mother. And like, this is how I would be a good wife. Um, But then, like, this idea of purity, and talking about anything else in between is shamed, and God forbid you even think about it, like, as a woman, as a daughter, , you have to be pure, and you have to think this certain way., How am I at the age of 11 talking about, how I can be a good wife and a good mother, um, but I have no idea what partnership [00:08:00] looks like, what a relationship looks like. What a healthy boundary of, being consensual looks like. Like, I wasn't old enough to know that yet, to understand those boundaries yet, and yet I was like, for me to be a good woman is to be a good wife and to be a good mother. And I think that comes back around to, feeding the patriarchy. Yeah.

Fareea:  So the terms like daughter and wife or like any kind of like female role is heavily tied to like servitude.

Tarchithaa: Oh.

Fareea: Well, yes.

And I mean, I'm sure that it's prevalent in like lots of cultures, like the nuclear family, like the patriarchal setup of families, which, you know, we can only speak to our own experiences. And yeah, I feel like it also doesn't matter if you're an eldest sibling or a younger sibling.

If you're a daughter, you will be looking after your, serving food to your dad, serving food to your brothers, no matter what the age difference is. [00:09:00] Like you could be the youngest in the family and you still have a role of servitude.

Tarchithaa: Yeah, if you're the only daughter in the family, You will, you will have the role of servitude, but if there are two daughters in the family, it's gonna be the elder daughter that does it. You're right.Because then there's this hierarchy where it's, almost like people who get, I don't know, people who get served. People who get served, if you go from high to top , it goes by gender and then like age, I guess, but I can't even say age directly because the moment you're in a child role that flips, that age role almost flips.

 In my extended family, like, the moment I entered that extended family environment, those hierarchies went into place, like, immediately. I remember as a kid being so upset that my mom and, all the wives, essentially, , they would be cooking all day in the kitchen and all the men,, they'll eat and then they go sit and watch TV or, they play carrom [00:10:00] board or whatever. Even as a kid, I would get so upset, seeing that, dichotomy happen. And then the older and older I got, the more and more it started became, becoming imposed on, like all the kids. So, like, me and my cousins and stuff like that, where, I would be expected to, , cut the vegetables and, like, um, help go wash up something.

Um, I don't know, it just became more and more obvious the older I was. getting, it made me validate my younger self's emotions, like the anger that I felt as like a young child, because I got older and I'm like, I knew what was going to happen even before it happened.

Like, I knew that I would be put in the same position, I would be expected to do the same thing. Um, But yeah, I want to go back to the point you made about servitude, because I think that's like important here, and I think that's where, the anger also comes from. It's like the expectation that we have to serve, like even when you don't understand, or even when I wasn't understanding everything that was [00:11:00] happening.

Fareea: I had like a similar experience like going to a masjid growing up and yeah, it would like, especially during Ramadan, like all the women are fasting and cooking for like, For everyone? And like, it's hard. Yeah, for the men and the kids. Yeah, they, um, because usually they would have iftar at the masjid. So it would be cooking for A big group of people. And the men kind of just like sit down.

I feel like it also relates to That idea of like you're a reflection of your parent That you talked about like I think that that's a big part of it because it's like if you're not serving , your parents or the, the male members of the family, then it looks bad.

Tarchithaa: It's like your child doesn't, yeah, yeah. And

Fareea: on [00:12:00] your parents essentially. And yeah, I've had a very similar experience also in my family with like, things are kind of chill at home when it's just like the, like my mom, dad, sibling, but then when interacting in like bigger spaces or like with extended family or in I guess larger cultural settings. There's that call back to those traditions.

Yeah, there's just like, a lot there. , I feel like related to the way that kind of your identity is formed based on like everyone outside of yourself, pretty much.

Tarchithaa: Yeah, so I went back home when I was 14. That was the first time I went back home, after I had immigrated to this country, with my family.

And when I went back then, it was like I [00:13:00] had, um, like I had hit puberty, so like I was like, I was definitely skinnier, like I had lost weight and my hair was longer and I knew how to take care of my hair and stuff like that. So going by societal standards, I was more beautiful now. Um, which is, yeah, like I'll leave it at that. Like, I don't know if I would, I would say that was true. It was more so that I fit that like feminine standard of being skinnier and like having longer hair or whatever. And like, I mean, I was eating off the compliments. I was grateful. I'd been a, I had been, uh, I don't know, I had, I had not had the best looks growing up, and so I was just like, oh, my family loves me. Like, I'm not being fat shamed anymore. Ah, um.

Fareea: Oh my god. Being the least skinniest person in the family is a struggle growing up.

Tarchithaa: Like, how are you gonna feed me jalebi and Milo with no multiple three spoons of sugar? And then you're like, why are you fat? Why do you think?

Fareea: Heavy on the Milo!

Tarchithaa: Yeah, heavy on the Milo. Yeah. And also to, once again, clarify that, this is talking about like [00:14:00] fatphobia that family members put on us, and as a kid, you start learning it as a bad thing, and so it took years for me to unlearn that in the first place, but, um, anyways, so I go back when I'm 13, 14, 14, um, and I kept getting into these like little arguments, um, I was like, I'm not rebelling. I'm just like, standing for what I think is right. And I, I don't, I don't think I was wrong in that way. But now that I'm older, I went back again when I was 20. Um, and this time when I went back, I like, followed all the rules. I wore all the right clothes. I only dressed super feminine. I guess the point I'm making is just like, even the older I got, the more I was also just like, It's not like I'm conforming to these standards because I believe in them, but it's more so, like, I know I have to play into this role because the last thing my parents need is, people finding a reason to, poke at us or, To be like, this is what happens when you bring a child to America, sort of thing.

Because anything I do is so strongly, connected to, [00:15:00] my parents, um, and my family. And, it reflects on did they do a good job of raising me? And if you want to bring that into queerness, and if it's, like, if your child is going to be gay, um, if your child is going to be anything but a good daughter, um, just, like, feminine daughter, um, then it becomes something to berate my parents for. Because being queer is seen as a negative thing, I then do not have the agency to really, , explore publicly. Um, my experiences because if someone found out they would let my parents know and then it reflects badly on my parents sort of thing. And so then we come to the conclusion where familial roles, if you are in a culture that deeply respects them and deeply entrenched in them and gender matters in that capacity, you are sort of, um, I don't want to say like you're not allowed to, because a lot of people, a lot of my friends have [00:16:00] broken out of that, but yeah, it is like hard, because your societal expectations are so tuned into, like, how your family perceives you. If you are, at least if you are South Asian. I don't know about, I can't speak for other cultures, obviously.

Fareea: Yeah, I feel like that's why it was kind of so hard for me to come to terms with my gender identity because there was like that idea that I am a daughter and nothing else. And also that idea that if I am anything else than a daughter, then that gets so complicated. And there's like, the idea of, shame on the family or, like, just, , not living up to my parents expectations of what I should be doing.

Um, and I want to circle back to, , you were mentioning, , the idea of, , this is what happens when you bring your child to America. Most people my age in my family are first gen Americans. So, our parents immigrated and...

Tarchithaa: And then, like, born [00:17:00] and raised in America. Mm hmm.

Fareea: So, we get that a lot of like, oh, these kids who grew up in America and how they act, and, and, um, very much having to do with like, yeah, things like dating, like not choosing to get married, or just like exploring with dating instead of getting married. It's even, like, down to, , personal choices, like how you dress. Like, there's always a thing with dressing unmodestly, or, like, the idea that, like, American clothing is not modest, which, like, .

Tarchithaa: , yeah, let's talk a little bit more about just like how faith, religion sort of like plays into this familial connection. I was raised Hindu. Um, I'm still sort of grappling with that. I do think um, as someone who's part of a diaspora, and as someone, you know, [00:18:00] who I think does not have access because my family was negatively impacted by it, like, like long, long, maybe a few generations back. And so that is why I say I was raised Hindu. Um, don't know if I would call myself Hindu, but I still sort of like follow those practices, those faiths in a lot of ways.

I think growing up Hindu was, so there is no idea of sin in Hinduism. There's no, like, you do this thing, you're going to hell, you're sinful, or whatever. Hinduism is about, like, your karma, you do your dharma, which is, like, your responsibilities. And it's, like, every soul, every, every Atma, has a dharma to fulfill. And that's what determines your karma, which is then determines your next life. Um, to put it simply, there's a lot more details there. To put it simply, that's what, that's what the whole, like, afterlife thing comes down to.

Um, and so I, I didn't, um, [00:19:00] yeah, speaking of like, just like gender identity specifically, like, I think when I was a really young kid, I didn't question a lot of things. I kind of just like accepted things as they were, and I was very, very religious. Me and my sibling were,, in the temple, um, like singing like Navaratri, Shivraatri, like Deepavalli, like, you name it, we're there singing, um, in front of God. But, um, and so for me, music is a very, very religious spiritual connection. That's how I was raised. And so, um, I just, because it was connected to music for me too, I just didn't question much. But then I got older, started realizing I was queer, um, started having moments of like, Um, is this acceptable? Among what, what is said in my religion, sort of thing. Um, but I remember being, so in like high school, I was involved in the temple. I would like volunteer, and then we would have our equivalent of Sunday school for all the teenagers who were like volunteering. So if you were high school age, you would do [00:20:00] volunteering, and then you would also take a class with , like, equivalent of our nun who would come and teach us.

Um, and I would say even leading up to before then my relationship with my religion, there's always been a personal, way that I go about it. Like, it was never just, following everything. The older I got, the more personal I got with it. And so the older I got, the more I was like, gender isn't a real thing. Um, but also, like, I, I always connected with the fact that in Hinduism, your body is just a vehicle, and your soul is what matters, specifically your jivatma. If you can get reincarnated and your soul is what actually matters and you have to let go of these like desires that are connected to your physical body because it's a vehicle. I was like your soul doesn't have a gender. Like, um, so my gender doesn't actually matter. And so understanding these things in like little, little ways through religion and then going to the temple and seeing how gendered everything is was a dichotomy for me.

And so I would be in these classes and I would [00:21:00] be raising my hands and being like, the soul doesn't have a gender, so why would be, like, there was this one lesson we were speaking about, um, I'm forgetting the words um that's like this thing that they were talking about called the four phases of your life. It's like your first phase is when you're growing up, whatever, whatever. Second phase is when you're getting married. Third phase is you're developing children, community. Fourth phase is when you start letting go of your worldly desires or like, you start preparing for rebirth and stuff like that And so when they were talking about the second phase I remember being like "do you have to get married? Is that crucial to the second phase?" And I remember the teacher there being like yeah like because marriage brings the union of the souls and I was just a 16 year old gay kid. Um, that was like, oh, so marriage is everything. And when she was making her point, she was specifically talking about male and female. And so then I was like, who, why, who's to say that gay marriage doesn't, [00:22:00] like essentially was just like, is gay marriage allowed according to our religion is kind of what I asked her.

And I remember people in my class sort of like, laughing it off, which I thought was interesting because I knew gay people in that room. Like, I had friends in that room who were queer. Not everyone knew, but, like, I knew because I had been friends with them. I had known them. And so I was like, real funny y'all are laughing. None of them knew I was queer, even the people I knew who were queer, even though they had told me, like, none of, they did not know I was either.  I just didn't really tell anyone in that community at all, but I was just, like, appalled. I was just seen to be somewhat abrasive, I think, and so, like, when I asked the question, it was like, Ah, that's Tarchithaa, being dramatic again, like, asking a question or whatever.

Um, But I'm not asking that and then my teacher being like, well, I mean, I'm thinking about it. And then I was like, well, if the soul doesn't have a gender, then that shouldn't matter, right? And then she was like, yeah, you're right, you know, gay marriage is fine. She was like, but it brings complications in terms of like having children and [00:23:00] stuff like that is what she said. . And I was just like, I mean, do you need to have children in the second phase? And it was really interesting because I look back on that as being like, someone who, in my own perception of the religion and depictions of gods. I was already perceiving things to be very queer.

Um, but then the teacher was talking about like the four phases of life and it's really important that you get married and, essentially following heteronormative was key to, having sattvic energy, which is like good energy. And I'm like, what? And I think just existing as a queer person, a lot of times, it's antithetical to like heteronormativity. And if you're telling me that the way I can live the best version of myself is by following these standards through my religion that you're telling me is heteronormative, then where does that leave anyone who's queer? Um, so the questions I was asking was just like where would queer people fit into your idea of like the best energy you can get?

 I think [00:24:00] the way that religion and faith connects with also familial role and responsibility, and that double compounded impact on your own personal idea of what your sexuality or gender is, is really sort of insane. Um, and I think if you're not queer, like, There's no reason for you to question it almost.

Like if you feel like you fit into it and you don't feel any discomfort there's no reason for you to assess it and then break down these heteronormative standards in your faith It makes me feel like then the only person who are really pushing our faiths to break down any systems of oppression that exists within this like heteronormativity and stuff like that, are people who don't fit into that. It's never gonna be someone who doesn't feel discomfort, um, who like actually fits that puzzle piece, you know?

Fareea: Um, yeah, I feel like, well, I grew up Muslim. I feel like [00:25:00] now it has a cultural relevancy to me, but I'm, I would consider myself a lot more spiritual than religious. Um, but growing up, there just wasn't a lot of space to ask questions or even like consider queerness in an Islamic context.

And I don't think that this is a religious problem. I think it's a cultural one.

Tarchithaa: Yep.

Fareea: And yeah,

Tarchithaa: yeah.

Fareea: And yeah, so it was kind of like, if there were other queer people, growing up at Masjid, I didn't know, they didn't know that I was queer. No one. And I think people are just scared to even ask a question about it. I never went to , our like, equivalent of Sunday school pretty much, but I would imagine that those kinds of questions wouldn't even [00:26:00] be asked, or if they were, I feel like they would probably be like, shut down, and I think that kind of, unwillingness isn't the word, but something adjacent to that, to, frame the religion in a broader, , way or take into account like multiple ways of living kind of Really strained my relationship with religion and I was kind of like well I'm doing everything wrong already. Like it kind of felt like there wasn't a way to be like, oh, how can I like introduce my queerness into the religion in a way that like feels like I'm, both honoring myself and God. And, yeah, and, and everything's just, like, very gendered. Like, the separation of, , men and women. , we had different [00:27:00] floors. , men would be, , downstairs, women would be upstairs. So it's, like, the first thing there is, , that separation.

Tarchithaa: Yeah, I think the separation of genders as the first thing that you see is pretty, it's pretty stark. Um, and I think that like imposition on gender identity is a cultural thing.

It's not actually a religious thing because every single time I would situate a question based on what I have been told about Hinduism, people wouldn't have an answer for me. They'd just be like, I guess, yeah, that does make sense. Um, but why would you do that? that's kind of what the response would be. It's like, I guess it's not wrong to be married to a woman, but why would you do that? Which then feels cultural, because I was just like, "why would you do that?" was never something I cared about because I'm going to do what I'm going to do. I just needed evidence that, it wasn't actually sinful. And then I'm cool and cool in it. Like, that's how I perceived it at least. Um, but I think if you're walking into a religious space and, you're really, really young, [00:28:00] especially if you've never thought about these things in, in this much of depth, um, and everything is so, binaried. Then it becomes difficult to even imagine a, an otherwise. Because it's complete invisibility of any other options. Like it's like, this is just the way, how it is. And, you don't even see the idea of having anything else and then trying to explain that just becomes like,

Fareea: I get it. That like, definitely, yeah. Yeah. That definitely played a huge role kind of that like idea of that's just how it is.

Tarchithaa: Mm hmm

Fareea: That's what kind of came up a lot In my experiences with religion and like learning about religion. There wasn't a lot of the learning part of it or like how you said an explanation that kind of has another an astrological meaning or like a Health meaning or something like [00:29:00] that. Yeah, it was just like you do this or it's a sin. And yeah, I think that's what like stops a lot of people from, especially queer people, from being able to see outside of that one definition of okay, this is who I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to do.

And compared to people of other religions or with other experiences, it's slows your process of identity development in a way.

Tarchithaa: I think that's important. That's important to know. The shame that comes with like, um, if you think about yourself in these capacities, then you're abandoning your family responsibility and that is just shameful. Um, it, it goes once again, like that shame sort of like comes with like, oh, now you have disrespected your elders, you've disrespected your ancestors sort of thing. Which then [00:30:00] for a lot of people, they almost get stuck in that cycle. I was stuck in that cycle for a while, just wanting to go beyond and then being like disappointing my ancestry and then coming back down and that cycle can exist like an entire lifetime literally.

Fareea: But I think it is important to also remember that like queerness is in our ancestry.

Tarchithaa: It literally is exactly.

Fareea: I think...

Tarchithaa: but I think the cultural...

Fareea: ...hidden and it's like Yeah, it's a very hidden thing. Like, you won't know it unless you...

Tarchithaa: ...know about it. I think what has been helpful for me and what I've heard other people, when I read biographies and autobiographies and stuff like that, I've seen this too. It's like, literally just knowing that your own ancestry had queer identities it is so huge and it's so monumental and that's why having historical records or having access to that, it, it is literally life changing because like for me, the way I found that was when I came to college and any class that I took, if I was able to loop it to finding anything queer in Malaysia, [00:31:00] like that's what I did.

And so, it was helpful for me to see that, see queerness in my own ancestry, in, like, within Tamil people, within, , South Asian people, or specifically even, like, within Malaysian history with, like, I was lucky in a sense, I knew these things existed and then I went looking for it, but I, I do know of people who didn't even know it existed and then they heard about it or they saw something historical and it was like, hmm, that's gay. Um, and then being like, oh, this did exist. This isn't a new thing. Uh, and also we do have to give props to colonialism for people thinking that it's a new thing. Um, I don't know whether I can blame colonialism for family expectations in the first place. I don't think I can do that. Um, but family expectations have been shaped by colonialism. And that's why now we're at the place that we're at, where like, we're having queer people who, do feel dejected and in some way suffocated from understanding themselves better.

Because if you have to put serving your family [00:32:00] before everything else, you're never ever going to be able to serve yourself. Um, which is, I don't know, it's just like heartbreaking to me.

Fareea: Mm hmm. Ancestry or not, like the fact that you or like we exist as like people who are queer, like despite the various systemic things put in place to make us believe that we're not or we shouldn't be, it's like evident in its own and a powerful thing in its own that yeah, like we exist. The people listening who are queer exist.

Tarchithaa: Yeah, exactly.

Fareea: And that in itself is powerful that showing that queerness has survived past, like, all these...

Tarchithaa: ... impositions of violence and, and power for white hegemony.

Fareea: Yeah.

Tarchithaa: Yeah. I think so, too. I do hope that our current day [00:33:00] existence gets connected back to our ancestral existence.

Thankfully, a lot of queer people love history and love research, so they are doing that work. I know people who trace that through oral storytelling and tracing it back in that way or yeah, even looking into family archives. So people are doing the work, um, in a lot of different ways. And I think that's really cool because I think the more we have, of present day queer existence, specifically within BIPOC communities, I think the closer we are to regaining what we've lost, um, a lot of ancestral lessons and connections. And if we can do that work, and a lot of people even before us have been doing that work for years. If we can add on to it, then it just leaves so much more for the future to come. For everyone in the future. And that brings me hope. So...

Fareea: And on that hopeful note...

Tarchithaa: We will, we will wrap it up [00:34:00] today. To our listeners, if you, well, this is probably the first episode, first thing you're ever listening to. We hope you come back for the rest of the season. And thank you for listening and celebrate yourself today and more and every day.

Fareea: Yeah.

Tarchithaa: Yeah. Okay. Bye!

Fareea: Bye!