Ep 3: What Is a Non-Reformist Reform?

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We love people like AOC and Bernie because one of the hardest things for people to do politically is to expand their imagination. Right? When we talk to people who are feeling cynical about politics because they just don't think that stuff is possible, stuff that can make their lives better, that could improve things for their whole community. But what AOC and Bernie say is that we refuse to accept the status quo. We demand an imaginative political vision that says that just because we don't have it now doesn't mean we can't build it and fight for it. And that's why people love them. And like, you know, why can't we all have beautiful lives? Welcome to Left On Red, where a Gen X mom and gay millennial do socialism.

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Socialist views on news you can use. My name is Scott Carlidis. Ma'am, Susan King. And we are so excited to bring to you socialist new views on news you can use. That's right. I'm never gonna get that right. Very exciting positive news we get to talk to you all about today. It is that in the state of Michigan, they are expecting to repeal And maybe by the time this releases, they will have already done so repeal the right to work laws in the state.

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Now Susan, you as a professor, and I used to think you were a professor on labor, but you're not. You're a professor on political science. But but I do write about labor. Would you write about labor? Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Tell us what that means. What is the right to work law? Okay.

0:02:04

So basically, there's two forms of employment. There's public sector where you're kind of working for like a state or federal or local agency, and then there's private sector. Okay. So private sector unions are when you're working for, like, a private business, like, working for Starbucks, for example -- Mhmm. -- private sector workers or, like, I don't know, Apple or whatever Costco. I can only think about brands, evidently. Okay.

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So when you work for a private employer, then the terms of whether or not you can unionize are determined by the National Labor Relations Act. But each state can decide whether or not if you are working in a unionized workplace, which a unionized workplace is a place where The workers have had an election and through the National Labor Board certified election, and then that union is the exclusive representative of the workers who then negotiate with the employers and just as a little asterisk sometimes. Employers will voluntarily recognize a union without going through this election process, which you Very rarely. Yeah. But you don't have to worry about that right now. So Anyway, the state can decide whether or not people who are not members of the union have to pay some kind of a fee so they don't free ride basically.

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So let's say that still Johannes and I are working at a unionized workforce at full Ford Motor. Okay? We're both, like, auto workers. And I'm a member of the union. Auto worker. I'm a member of the union. Cileadis is not. So in a right to work state, Cileadis does not have to pay dues, but he receives all the benefits of union representation such as he gets all the wages, he gets all the benefits, and everything else the union does. To benefit us here in the workplace.

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But in, I guess, they call it a closed shop state, which is not a right to work state, then still you also have to pay either the full union dues or some kind of an agency fee to cover the costs of what the union provides. Right? So you know, that makes sense because if the union is negotiating for his wages and for his conditions of work and his benefits, then if he just benefits of free rides, that hurts the union. So the union provides all of these incredible benefits to workers together but union requires money in order to operate. All of the workers are the union, but they're also doing their own jobs every day. They're not all attorneys they don't understand all the time, all the details of bargaining and everything, and so they hire people. Those are union employees, union lawyers that represent them. And it costs money to do that, and so the unions collect dues. And it sounds like in a right to work state, you can opt out of paying dues while still receiving all the benefits of being in a union.

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And this is a classic tactic by the right to weaken worker power. Essentially try to propagandize to workers that you don't need the union. The union dues are too expensive. The union probably doesn't represent you. It's a outside of our party. Unions are a bunch of fat cats, like that kind of thing. They're just stealing workers' money. Yeah. That typical union boss stereotype. Right. There's also, like, language that, like, you know, it's discriminatory. You have a right to not join the union. So it's this very individualistic approach towards a worker's relationship to the union. And what this ends up doing is reducing worker power by weakening unions, taking dues away from them, and practically speaking, it drives down union membership. And in states that have enacted right to work laws, there are less union members, lower union density, and as a result, wages go down. Benefits go down, poverty goes up. All of the states that have right to work laws in the United States, you can see across the board working standards, wages, all of those things I just described are a lot worse than in states that have closed shops where unions collect dues from every single employee no matter what. Yeah. And so to give an example of how stark this is, I actually wrote an article for truth out.

0:06:18

Back around the general election when there were two constitutional ballots about right to work. So the first one was in Tennessee. And they were gonna use their existing right to work laws and put into the constitution. And then the other one was going the opposite direction. It was in Illinois. And it was basically gonna enshrine collective bargaining rights to basically ensure that unions had the right to collect dues from everybody in a workplace And that was gonna be put into the Illinois Constitution.

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And I spoke to people from the union movements in both states, and Tennessee is right to work states, so Tennessee unions don't have resources. So they're not able to mobilize even though they did as well as they could against this right wing effort to just really sticking to them. Right? They already had a state law that made it a right to work state, but now they had to enshrine in the constitution, which meant that In the future, it wouldn't just take, like, you know, lawmakers agreeing on a new law to make Tennessee not a right to work state. It would take another constitutional vote, which would be a, you know, general, like a ballot initiative. Right, in Illinois in contrast because they are a state where workers have have to pay, like, an agency fee or union dues even if they're not members of the union. Which basically incentivizes them to become members of the union. Illinois unions had a lot more resources to make sure that this pro union constitutional amendment passed in the past with flying colors. And in, you know, both states, it was right wing rich guys, and it was guys, you know, who ensured and funded these efforts to try to hurt the unions.

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Yeah. I don't get to say I wrote an article about this thing, unfortunately, but It's a really great parallel for what's happening in Michigan right now. Michigan now has a Democrat Trifecta in their state government. So the governor and their version of the House and the Senate are all controlled by Democrats. And they are now voting to repeal their right to work laws. This is really important also because of a few things.

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One, Michigan has this like rich and storied history of auto manufacturing. When you think of the American auto industry, to me, at least, I think of unions. I think of union workers doing all of that I think of that as one of the biggest sources of early unionism in the United States. I think of it all centered around and near Detroit. And Michigan is this kind of like swing state. It's always been paid attention to. It's one of those Midwestern states that broke for Donald Trump even though Hillary thought she was going to win it. In part because it was this historically union state that always had this huge band of working class people that identified as Democrats partially through their unions, which were very political actors at the time. And It's been eroding because of these right to work laws that have taken a lot of people out of their unions, removed active union members and allowed them to drift further and further towards the right. So that's why, you know, there's a lot more reasons, but that's why it's really exciting that Michigan is about to repeal these laws because it's an enormous change for one of the most critical places in the United States for workers' rights and unionism.

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And to give a little bit of context, so some of the people in this room were too young to remember this. But after Obama got elected in two thousand eight, you know, the Republicans really you know, tried to mobilize, and so they had their two party revolution. So in two thousand and ten I was old enough to remember. Okay. Thank you very much. How old were you? Two thousand and ten, I was sixteen years old. Fine. So so Yahn was already just in the know. I have an embarrassing story about the tea party, but go on. So two thousand ten after the tea party swept, not just congress, but also state houses and governorships across the country.

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One of the things that was noteworthy was the passing of right to work laws in states like Wisconsin, Michigan. I think also perhaps Indiana, but we'll double check that. That were traditionally Union states. And so this was the beginning of the pendulum sort of swinging to the right. On on these really important economic issues, really like kind of a death knell for unions and union rights. And it was very disappointing and depressing. Like, I was It was like my second or third year as a professor writing about labor, and I was just like, oh, man. Like, are unions gonna be like a historic relic of the past? Like, it was really discourage you. And now, like, unions are hot. Like, everyone wants to do any union. Like, young people are, like, making TikToks about their union. Like, I if you had told me this, thirteen years ago about the way things would change. And now, like, if you look at Gallipole data, unions have the highest level of support among the general general public in the US than since, like, nineteen sixty five. Right? Well, ironic because they have the highest level of support, but they also have the lowest union density ever. Right? We have the lowest percentage of American workers in unions than ever before, which is We're gonna fix that though. Yeah. We're gonna fix that.

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But that's a that's a a difficult contradiction or accurate head around. And part of that is, literally, all of the things that Susan's saying, all of these structural changes at the right has made over the last century have been to make it more difficult to unionize more difficult for workers to organize in their workplaces. And very scary, I personally am worried about some organizing effort at my job because I have the feeling that I will probably get fired or something very bad will happen to me in terms of my pay or whatever my conditions if they find out. And that's a difficult thing to deal with. They probably shouldn't say that on air, but I don't think anyone at my job is listening. But I'm I'm a long time union member and a member of my union's executive council, so I have all this union member privilege. I'll say it. I'll say it. It's good privilege to have. Yeah.

0:12:18

But these reforms that we're talking about that Republicans are able to enact and that now hopefully, slowly, we roll back in more and more states across the country are a great example in a bad way. This topic we wanna talk about, which is what is a non reformist reform? So I think there's like a very academic or professional definition of this, which I do not know but I'm gonna tell you what I think it is, which is that I think a non reformist reform is some form of policy reform law change that you make that isn't just intended to have an immediate effect and operate within the system, but is intended to change the way the system works. And I think these right tool workflows are actually ironically a good example of it's not just intended to change the current situation and the current conditions of capitalism, but it's intended to over time shift the political terrain. They passed this reform so that year after year, there's less union members, there's less people in the left, and the right gains power. Likewise, repealing that and making states closed shops is an example of a reform that gets more and more people into unions and moves people to the left. And, you know, changes the political conditions and allows more power for the left in that state. Yeah. So Institutional context matters so much when we're engaging in our political struggles. And I think that this move away from right to work. It radically change institutional context in which workers organize, in which unions operate.

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I just want to say because we didn't mention this in our discussion of Michigan. That we didn't already know this. There was a supreme court decision that was decided the day after AOC won. Her primary in twenty eighteen. I know because we were like excited and they were like sad. And it was called the Janice decision, which basically made all public employees in states made us all a right to work. So now there is no right for our our unions to collect agency fees from nonmembers, which has severely hurt public sector unions, which traditionally have been some of the strongest areas for unions to operate. So that's a real right wing attack on a real traditional union stronghold and under a non reformist reform.

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Unfortunately. We have all these bad examples of performance reforms. I I have some good ones that I think are key. And and the reason we're bringing this up Partially, it's inspired by the context of what we're just talking about in terms of right to work, but also because a lot of folks who might be interested in the Democratic socials of America, might be interested in lots of ways to change the world, to fight capitalism, to make structural revolutionary changes but that seems really far away or really difficult. And these non reformist reforms are means of doing that right now.

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So at least in New York State, I think we have a good few examples of them. One of them is the good cause evictions campaign. And that's a campaign run by our housing folks here in New York, in coalition with housing justice for all. And it attempts to create the requirement that for every eviction, a landlord has good cause. Some proof that the lease has been violated. And the reason I view this as a and it does other things, really good things. But the reason I view this as a non reformist reform is because It creates additional protections for tenants who might otherwise be worried about tenant organizing. If you have these new protections in place, that prevent the landlord from evicting you unless you violate a specific section of the lease and you make it a lot easier for tenants to stay in their homes tenants become a lot freer and more able to organize. And then they can start forming tenants unions that push further on the landlord and gain more power for the tenants. Eventually, these tenants unions can change the relationship entirely and take steps to maybe even buy out the building that they live in and do collective ownership. This is a way in which we can pass laws now that might seem to have not the furthest reaching effects. But can create conditions for future organizing or future political struggle.

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An example of a non non non reformist reform? Like or reformist reform? Reformist reform. Yeah. Reformist reform. That would deal with housing, insecurity, for example, would just be like about program -- Yeah. -- in which the government or the state gives money directly subsidies to a landlord. It doesn't change the political power, the dynamics, institutional structure between landlords and tenants. So it's just business as usual.

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I wanted to sort of And it could be good, by the way. Bauchner's not we're not anti. Yeah. Bauchner's can be good things. It's just there's a clear difference between We wanna fight for stuff that is not informus. Exactly. We wanna fight for stuff that allows us to fight for more stuff.

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Basically, non reformist reform to set up the political conditions for future changes that are even more drastic, but regular reforms can be good. They can't help people. They often do. Right. 

0:18:51

So DSA elected a city council member here in Astoria, Tiffany Coupon, has actually introduced a bill in the New York City Council. Called the Secure Jobs Act, which is another example of a non reformist reform. So unlike in Europe and a lot of other places, here in the US, you can just fire people for whatever. If they prove that it was, like, based on a protected category, like, race, age, gender, that kind of thing, then you can be sued for violating anti discrimination laws. But other than that, you don't like their face, you can go ahead and fire there. You don't have to give a reason unless there is like a union contract or some other kind of protection, but workers under standard laws do not have any protection from arbitrary firings, which means that if you're trying to organize a union, or even just you know, say things like, oh, hey, boss, maybe we don't want to work under unsafe conditions like under COVID. Right? You don't have a right. To not be fired. You don't have a right to to be protect against retaliation through firing.

0:19:54

So this bill would be an example of a non reformist reform because it would put that power back in the hands of workers because it's not like you can't get fired at all. It's just that employers can't fire you unless they can prove that it was for a just reason. Yes. Some violation of your employment contract. Then it's funny there is technically I can't be fired for union organizing. Technically, that's in the law. But practically speaking, I I would have to do so much legal work to prove that I a higher lawyer. I could document everything. It would take years Imagine just getting fired and I wouldn't have any money and then I'd have to find a lawyer and then I'd have to find receipts to somehow prove that I got fired trying to organize my workplace. That would never happen in a million years. Whereas an employer has many more resources to say, no, you didn't get fired for this. You had enough fired for this. Right? So it's workers just merely having laws don't protect workers because you have to look at how they get enforced. Like and traditionally, the NLR B, the National Labor Relations Board, was pretty toothless. It would take, like, hundreds of days for them to do anything that's changed under dark brandon's rule.

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Another example of what we're doing here in New York that I would qualify hope as a non reformist reform is the Bill Public Renewables Act. I know I talked about it a little bit in the first episode. Very happy to say it continues to move along beyond our expectations. We're working really hard on it. But it's an example of trying to change the conditions of the energy economy where we create a publicly owned, democratically controlled authority that then -- How's -- drilled by union labor? Built by union labor that has to build new renewable energy resources and has to use union labor. This creates the conditions for us to work with both the public and union labor to force the public, the government, us really to do more and more industrial investment in renewable energy, in clean energy, in protecting the environment and dealing with climate change.

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And the contrast to this would be what Governor Hockel had said in her sort of state of the state, her executive budget, which is something like a cap and trade type program, like, we don't need more government subsidies of private energy providers or private businesses to try to, like, incentivize a reduction in the use of carbon because all that cap and trade means is that you sell the right to pollute to other people and that doesn't actually create more energy capacity, that's green, or, you know, it doesn't it doesn't revolutionize anything or change the ownership or or the institutional structures. It tries to deal with the problems that capitalism has created without dealing with any of the things that capitalism is. A reformist reform or reform. Regular reform. Yeah. A reform. Yeah. It tries to keep everything the same and hopes to deal with the symptom. Right. A nonperformance reform attempts to get at the disease causing this syndrome. Right. It's kinda like a band aid. And it it's a band aid that over like a really gaping wound that we know won't hold. Yeah. You can make really big band aids. And after a while, it's like, oh my god, I'm covered in Band Aid. That's sometimes what this economy feels like. This government is a system covered in a lot of dates. Speaking of band aids and a really sick country and economy, We have just learned that Marianne Williamson is considering challenging president Joe Biden in the Democratic primary in two thousand and twenty four.

0:23:51

I remember Mary Anne Williamson running a few years ago, and I remember how much she talked about our spiritual sickness and the disease and that you wanted to be a psychic warrior for love. What if I'm being honest? I found mildly positive and inspiring. But otherwise, I think we all saw her as kind of a huckster. But I think it's interesting that she wants to challenge Joe Biden again. I think it's interesting that she's the first, at least, that I've noticed, major figure, if you can call her that. To announce the primary challenge. And I think it's interesting the way people are reacting online. I don't know. Susan, what do you think about the presidential primary in twenty twenty four and potential challenges to Joe Biden? Yeah. So it's such a interesting state of affairs, I guess.

0:24:42

Because on one hand, Joe Biden is probably the most left. President in terms of his actual record, not that he's left, but the most left in my lifetime. In my lifetime definitely I I lived through Bill Clinton, George Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump. Right. And then before I lived through Reagan and push Oh, yeah. Yours is even worse. Yeah. Yeah. So right. Like, so in in my lifetime, I think, technically, when I was born, Jimmy Carter was president, but, you know, he was, like, A neo OG NeoLib. Yeah.

0:25:16

So, like, you know, you read things about dark Brandon, how he, you know, picks people for his top cabinet positions who take climate seriously. Like, he's not what we want, but he's better than the alternatives that we've had. And, like, although people, you know, you did make a point earlier about how the Democratic establishment likes to coalesce around pre defeating people like Bernie. Bernie's agenda has clearly affected Biden's presidency. Right? It's And that's the thing about, like, when we think about what does the Democratic Party want, we don't really know because they they don't they don't act in a way that's really clear.

0:25:52

And so the thing about Biden is that, like, he is very old. Talking about Biden. Yeah. G80. Oh, I think he's old slightly older. Okay. Yeah. So, like, on one hand, two. You know, if he ran again and he was, like, continued to be dark brand in and then, like, the democrats sold dark brand in merch, you know, then that would be great. On one hand. But on the other hand, like, who's who's an effective national Democratic political leader who inspires people? And, like, brings him out. Like, my mind just blank. Like, who? Cabela Harris. Come on. Right? Like Well, you said his name before.

0:26:33

And I mean, this gets to the heart of what we're talking about now. Bernie's very old, though. Bernie is very old. I mean, like, I I want Bernie to, like, continue being Bernie and, like, I want him to prioritize his health Like, I'm trying to prioritize my health, but Bernie really needs to prioritize his health. I am willing to sacrifice Bernie Sanders' health for the movement.

0:26:50

And and the reason I say this is obviously, you know, Mary Anne Williamson, I don't think she's on the left. I don't I don't know what tells me. We don't know where she was. Yeah. She She was, like, stomping for Bernie, though, after she dropped off. I she I've given her that credit. I like a crystal ball. But what I think the reason it's salient or it's important to us right now is that's the type of news and political happenings that people pay attention to. Who's running for president? So I get that Bernie is very very old and I don't know if he has it in him to run for president again. I don't know if he would based on his relationship right now to Joe Biden, but I do feel like you said it yourself, the good things that Joe Biden is doing, the few good things that are happening in this presidency, are happening because of that extremely strong campaign that Bernie ran and those millions of Americans, young and old, that came out for him. Democrats noticed that. Republicans noticed that. People noticed that Bernie Sanders' socialism like, struck a chord with Americans all over the country, and he won all the first three of those primary states.

0:28:04

I FEEL LIKE WE DO NEED SOME FORM OF CREDIBLE LEFT THREAT IN THE PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY, NOT JUST BECAUSE WE WANT TO KEEP JOE BIDEN MOVING LEFT, BUT BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WORKING CLASS PEOPLE PAY ATTENTION TO. THAT'S HOW WE SEE POLITICAL NEWS WHO IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT. Yeah. And it's a shame that Americans pay attention to the presidency and less about their own, like, state politics or, like, you know, city politics. But you're right. It matters and it trickles down to local politics.

0:28:37

But I guess the question is, like, who is a Bernie like figure who could run a than Bernie? And, like, what Bernie does is not just, you know, make people excited and have them make memes. Bernie also, like, makes people hopeful. Right? Bernie excites people across party lines. Like, I feel like people who are angry right, about the train derailment, they would, like, support Bernie. You know? Yeah. Bernie speaks to people's, like, everyday struggles, but I don't know who that person is and, like, I don't know what Bernie wants. Bernie should take care of Bernie. Like, you know, we we stand as self care king. So and I I don't know what the answer is. Right? But you're absolutely right. The presidential primary is that's real prime time politics. It it effects the way people think about what's possible.

0:29:27

Without Bernie, there would be no build back better. And build back better didn't pass, but like build back better was like super I don't know. Would you say it was a non reformist reform, Bill? I think there were some rare elements in it like the ProAC the protectorate organizing act that would have revolutionized. I think a lot of labor laws across the country, that definitely was a non reformist reform. I think there were other elements of it that weren't -- Mhmm. -- obviously, I think the majority of it was not. Right. But it was so much better than what we ended up getting. Oh, yes. Yeah. So we yeah. We definitely need to have if Bernie doesn't run, we need to have a Bernie figure, and I don't know who that is. It's definitely not Maryann Williams.

0:30:08

I thought that we do we do like the orb mother because as I age, like, as I'm sliding into my mid forties, I understand why people wanna like embrace wellness because life is really hard. And whatever you need to do to like get through it, for some people it's organizing, for other people it's crystals, Like, I have I have sympathy for everybody's journey, you know. And I think that that you have to approach organizing from place of love for everybody. Even if you disagree with them. I agree. And I think that's why Mary Anne Williamson does have some level of appeal.

0:30:39

I don't think a lot of people consider her seriously politically, but I watched those debates and she was like, I'm fighting a psychic battle of love. And I was like, you know what? You are. We are. This is a psychic battle of love. Capitalism isn't about love. Right? Capitalism is about destruction and greed. Yeah. And, you know, concentrations of wealth. That's not loving.

0:31:01

There was a good tweet from one of our friends, Ella, shout out, Ella, where she said that Mary Anne Williamson, all these cookie things, but there's one thing that she has that hasn't really been captured politically, which is this like unique form of female charisma. That I think a lot of women politicians kind of shy away from because they wanna be, you know, they feel like they're they often are forced into a lot more of a traditional, more masculine role to be a successful politician. But Mary Anne Williamson doesn't do that, taps into something else, and has been very successful at it. I think along those lines, my preferred presidential primary candidate, AOC, I know. She's old enough? She's not yet old enough. Right. That's the thing. She will be. But the thing about AOC that I think is dicey for us is obviously the right, recognized what a talent she was, what a good speaker she was, how relatable people found her, how popular she was, and they've spent years and years trying to demonize her. But I still think you talked to regular people on the street and she's pretty popular. People recognize her and people like her. They say, oh, yeah. She's talking about the workers.

0:32:10

I remember her she came out to this Teamsters strike. Is the fruit striking the Bronx? Yes. Yeah. And she was extremely well received by a lot of older men who She has a lot of appeal in many ways. Yeah. And they were listening to her talk about what it means to be a worker and workers' rights. And how important their jobs are, and I could see them being inspired by what she was saying, people get that she cares. She came to my job last year one of our programs in the Bronx. And it was really great.

0:32:45

The people, once the workers found out that she was coming to visit, Everyone, like, started freaking out. They were like, oh my god. Really? Is she really coming? Isn't it not just her staff? I was like, yeah, she's really coming. And one thing that she did with a lot of the workers there was she asked them this question of if you could wave a magic wand and get any wage you want, what would it be? And a lot of the workers kept just saying, oh, just a little bit more, maybe twenty two dollars an hour, just a little bit more. And she was like, stop. Wave a magic wand. Don't tell me what's reasonable. Don't tell me what you think is possible. Tell me what wage you deserve. Shit, to ask that three times. Finally, someone said, I deserve sixty five thousand dollars a year for this job.

0:33:29

And that's why we we love people like AOC and Bernie because one of the hardest things for people to do politically is to expand their imagination. Right? When we talk to people who are feeling cynical about politics, because they just don't think that stuff is possible, stuff that can make their lives better, that could improve things further whole community, but what AOC and Bernie say is that we refuse to accept the status quo. We demand an imaginative political vision that says that just because we don't have it now doesn't mean we can't build it and fight for it. And that's why people love them. And like, you know, why can't we all have beautiful lives? That's a phenomenal way to put it. Expand their imaginations. Why can't we all have beautiful lives. I don't know if AOC is ready for running for president in twenty twenty. We also care a lot about her safety. Jen, Yeah. So big fans. But AOC, if you're listening in a few years, I want you to run for president. I think you'd be great at it. And I think and I hope and I believe that she is inspiring a lot of other leaders that will keep coming up through the ranks. We'll be these explicitly socialist public figures that will keep pushing the window nationally in terms of what's possible, what's feasible, expanding people's imaginations.

0:34:51

I should have a quick story at a student who was, like, so disappointed and angry after the two thousand sixteen presidential election, she was so angry. And I was like, no, no, you can't just be angry. You have to have hope. And she was like, what's the point of hope? But anyway, so she went away and she went to study in England because she was so mad at the US. And then she wrote to me after AOC one, and she's like, you were right, professor. She's like, it's it's important to have hope, it's important to believe that you can build something else. And so she was also Latina and to see, like, AOC to win against all odds and to become, like, catapulted to national fame, and tension, and prominence was just super inspiring for her. And, like, when she emailed me, I was just, like, that was probably, like, one of the most important moments that I've had, you know, in recent years.

0:35:38

In terms of being a political science professor, it's not just about making knowledge about political science. Right? What I am trying to do is create citizens who think that they have power. Well, not create citizens, but help students think of themselves as empowered. Right? Political actors, it's not just enough for me to write about political science you know, like Mark said, philosophers have long tried to understand the world, but the point is to change it. Well, I'm also trying to you know, change it too. Lucky for me. I'm not a philosopher. But you do try to understand the world. Yeah. A little bit. A little bit. We got limits.

0:36:15

That I think I hope if you're listening and you're thinking about expanding a political imagination and having hope, which is such a beautiful way to do it.

0:36:24

The way it works for me and I bet it works, it sounds like it works for you too, Susan, is through other people.

0:36:31

I don't feel hope by just watching the news or reading Twitter or reading the right books, but I feel hope when I do organizing with Democratic Associates of America, the DSA, and I meet New people on the street who are inspired by our ideas, and I realize what we're doing is working.

0:36:49

And I feel hope when I work alongside all of my comrades who are doing their best sacrificing many hours of their days of their lives that they could be doing something else, they could be apathetically sitting at home, kind of hedonistically trying to enjoy what the rest of their lives that they can, but instead they're facing the world head on and they have some hope that not only are we gonna change people's imaginations that we can have beautiful lives, but that we're going to do so in a way that inspires them to take and we're actually gonna change the world.

0:37:22

And you know this, if you wanna do that too, if you wanna feel that way, you have to head on over to d s a u s a dot org and join this organization. Start paying dues, reach out to your local chapter get involved. It's time to feel some hope. Yeah. So a better world is possible, but we have to build it. We're not waiting for the people with power to make these changes because they're not doing it. It's gonna be us. So see you see you on the picket line, see you at the meeting, see you at the canvas. It's gonna be us.