Abdu Ali
Abdu Ali, interviewed by Eddie Stockman
October 2020
EDDIE: My name is Eddie Stockman; this is for Hannah Brancato’s Art and Resistance class, and today I will be interviewing the artists and activist Abdu Ali, stream their music on Apple Music and Spotify, their recent release “Fiyah” is out and is very good, my favorite from it is “Gotta Get It” I vibed to that I must say, and another I really enjoyed was “Thornz” but I don’t believe that was on the album.
ABDU: Oh yeah that’s an old one, lord.
EDDIE: Well anyways, without further ado, I have some questions here for you. And when you are ready we can begin! We’re going to start out pretty easy for the first few; I’d like to ask you, what first inspired you to create music?
ABDU: Well first and foremost thank you for having me Eddie, this is dope and an honor to be here. And secondly let me say I want to emphasize that I do not consider myself an activist, I actually consider myself a cultural worker, and sometimes those things can get blurred, but they are very distinct. Activism, I feel like you are purposely trying to change political infrastructure, political things in our world, community, and country etc. Cultural workers I feel like are workers who are artists, not always artists, but organizers who are trying to change things culturally, and radicalize culture. So I don’t really consider myself an activist, a lot of people title me as that because I do things within the arts community, I curate things and events and organize them, but I don’t really consider myself an activist.
So I actually went to school, I went to University of Baltimore for writing, my major was English and my specialization was creative writing. I always wanted to be a writer ever since middle school, and I thought that was gonna be my thing. Technically as a music artist you’re still writing, but I wanted to be a poet and a journalist, and in my sophomore year I realized that writing isn’t really, it doesn’t really grasp me fully in the way that I wanted to do it as a career, because as a career I feel like you have to do the work to elevate yourself in your career. So, I wasn’t really stuck on it that way, I wasn’t feeling it that way.
One day I said what would happen if I made a song, because I would always write songs to myself and rap them to myself. I don’t know if you watch “Insecure” but Issa Rae, her character, she writes these raps and raps in the bathroom in the mirror to herself, that was me. I never really had an incline before I started doing music, I wanted to be a writer, I was in the choir in middle school but who wasn’t in the choir? I always loved music and maybe that’s why I was secretly always writing songs and raps because deep down inside I did want to be a music artist. Anyways, so I said let me see what happens when I start doing music and if I record a song. So I got with this producer in Baltimore, all I had was my lyrics and I sent it to him and he was like “yo these lyrics are wild.” Now, like I said being a poet is not completely off-kilter from being a songwriter, so I feel like I kind of did have an established voice as a writer before I actually started doing music. And so when he saw the lyrics he was just tripping because they were very wild, it was very wild and from the beginning. I was flipping the script on gender and sexuality, what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, what it means to be queer from the beginning. So my raps at that time were probably even more explicit because I was really into Lil Kim at the time, so I was just mimicking her word choice and her diction, in a way… you know Lil Kim, especially from back in the day. We got in the studio, I recorded the song and bam, that was it, it hooked me from right then and there when I recorded my first song I was like this is it. And when I first performed a few months after that, that’s when it really solidified for me that I was supposed to be on stage doing music. It just empowered me in a way I never felt before, it made me feel alive. So this was Sophomore year in college now, which is like 2012, so that was eight years ago.
EDDIE: That’s awesome! I definitely value that experience you were talking about, it’s a process and if you’re not doing what makes you happy then definitely, changing, there’s nothing wrong with that. So that’s good, so you talked about it a little bit, what and or who are your inspirations?
ABDU: It’s funny you ask that, yesterday on twitter I made a list of LGBTQ artists that inspire me, but definitely Lil Kim, Missy Elliot. Missy Elliot has done the most for me as far as inspiring me, not just as a music artist, as a black queer feminine person, she really has affirmed me in a lot of ways. Who else… Erykah Badu, Tricky who is from the UK, Miss Tony, an infamous, legendary MC from Baltimore from back in the day, definitely one of my main huge inspirations. But as far as queer artists, Sylvester, Arthur Russel, Beverly Glenn Copeland, Julius Eastman, Peaches, Jonte, Bessie Smith, Tracey Chapman, Meshell Ndegeocello, Frankie Knuckles, Lil Richard, Kevin Jz Prodigy for sure. They’re the artists that inspire me. I like artists that are experimental, that push the genre or push what genre or realm of music they exists it, push the limits of it. People always think that experimental is just Bjork or FKA Twigs or someone like that, but some pop artists even push the limits of what being a pop artist is, and I think Missy Elliot is one of those people. We shall not say his name but Kanye West was definitely that artist, Lady Gaga was that artist, is that artist. But those are my inspirations.
EDDIE: Awesome! Definitely love Missy Elliot and Peaches. I remember listening to Peaches a lot, probably before I should have been.
ABDU: Peaches is my homie actually, last time I was in Berlin I stayed at her place, she’s really been supportive of me and holds me down. She just made a list with one of my songs on her blog, LGBTQ artists to look for and she nominated me. That’s my homie she’s dope.
EDDIE: I could only imagine. That’s so cool, wow star struck. But, what cultures influence you in your creative process, or have you created your own, or a little bit of both?
ABDU: I don’t think that it’s one step and then another step, I think the culture of Baltimore club music has definitely influenced me, the culture of ballroom, voguing has definitely influenced my work. The culture of just what it means to be Black in Baltimore definitely influenced my work. And I think that’s it honestly, but I think that those influences definitely help me create my own lane, my own cultural lane within music and what it means to be an artist in general. I’m definitely inspired by those things culturally, but also my intent as a music artist is to create my own cultural space within music society.
EDDIE: So I’m going to skip around a little bit. How has your heritage affected your music in the way you make it, whether that be ancestral, or personal, or anything to that effect. I know being a Black person from Baltimore definitely would have an effect like you just said, so anything you think your heritage had an effect on or lack thereof?
ABDU: Well, I don’t think there can be a lack of heritage, but for me, when I think about heritage I think about not just ancestral stuff, but how my heritage showed up in my home growing up. I come from a lineage of strong independent women, and I think being raised by that energy has definitely helped me to be comfortable in pursing what I want to pursue creatively no matter if it isn’t in traditional boundaries of what it means to be a music artist in America. I don’t just mean independence and strength as resilience, I was raised by people who had the strength to be unapologetically them, and had the audacity to be who they truly are by any means necessary. And also I was raised by two Aquarius women, people who say whatever comes out of their mouth and that’s that. I think that has defiantly influenced who I am as a person and an artist. I think that heritage around strong independent- and I don’t mean independent as in economically, they are that too, but I mean independent as far as autonomy and self-determination within this world even though their makeup in this world, because we live in a white supremacist patriarchy under capitalism, it’s hard for a lot of Black people to feel self-determined and have autonomy, but they did, and I think that really influenced me as an individual a person and an artist for sure. It fulfills me in a powerful way.
EDDIE: That’s very interesting, I’m glad we talked about that. Next question, through your art what have you personally attempted to, or felt that you have successfully influenced within society and pop culture?
ABDU: I think whether it be the American public, or wide range of people, but definitely in Baltimore I have made space for Black and brown women, and LGBTQ people for them to have space within the underground music scene, and the Baltimore music scene in general. I used to throw a lot of events and organize shows and parties that center women, Black people and LGBTQ people because we wanted to change the game in regards to who felt like they could have space in the music scene in the city, because at the time it was straight men or white people. I wanted to change that creative climate at the time, and I think that we have successfully made, me and my old collaborators, have successfully infiltrated central Baltimore carving out space for women, LGBTQ people and Black people within the music scene infrastructure.
But I think overall in another way, as an artist I think that I’m, and I’m still trying to be the offset basically what it means to be an artist, and to be independent, and to have autonomy, and to have full creative control, and to show a different route of how to be a music artist or artist that isn’t attached to institutional investment, whether it be art foundations, or record labels, or management companies, and to show a picture of having autonomy as a music artist, you just probably won’t be super rich or famous, but I think we need to show different sides of how one can be an artist and how you can thrive as an artist even if you’re making 60 or 70k a year, or even 30 or 40 a year, that’s successful. If you’re doing that and that’s all your money as an artist, that’s amazing. I think in America we get wrapped up over what it means to be a successful artist and that usually is fame whether it be social media fame, or real life fame, TV fame, or having a lot of money and access. That’s the only kind of images of success we have as an artist, we don’t have the idea of being an artist is like being an artisan, it’s a craft, not this fantasy lifestyle career that only has these extreme binaries, either you’re a struggling artist or you’re a famous Cardi B artist. Basically I feel like I’m proof that you can be an independent artist, an entrepreneur, and be able to pay your bills and do your damn thing. That’s how it is in Europe, not everyone in Europe, but when I was touring in Europe, I saw different versions of a successful artist. I saw artists who were able to just live and thrive well into their 50’s and have a family and a house, they’re not rich, but I saw a lot of examples of professional artists. Over there it seemed like an artist was just like being a teacher, not this career that’s only for the privileged or really talented and special people get, it doesn’t have that halo effect it has in America. I feel like we need to start dismantling and disrupt that image of what it means to be an artist in America, that’s what I feel like I contribute.
EDDIE: I really enjoyed that response actually, because you’re right, capitalism in America has really put a standard to people who create art, whether you’re making money or not. But I do think that if you’re going into the business, especially into creating art, to make money, personally I don’t think that’s the right idea. You do it because that’s what you love, and I think that’s what I’m getting from you I believe is that you base your success off of what you feel is your success, and it doesn’t really depend on how much money you make, it just really depends on if you’re doing what you like and being successful in your own respect and I really appreciate that. That reminds me of another question, what are your views on gender and what do you think needs to be changed about it, or the discussion of it within society through art?
ABDU: Well I think obviously gender is a social construct, it’s not a "real" thing, I don’t know if that’s the right language. But gender basically, some man or some kingdom decided there’s a man and woman and that there’s not a spectrum of gender. I feel like there’s a spectrum of gender, or it’s not even a thing that you have to address as this real entity and I feel like that’s where I fit in. I don’t feel attached to any gender construct, I don’t identify with what it means to be a man or a woman, I’m just me. I think that we just need to teach our children and youth that there is a spectrum of gender or that you don’t have to fit in the spectrum at all, you can just be genderless, and start breaking down what it means if you do identify with a gender, start radicalizing what it means to be a man or a woman. Not having those identities rooted in patriarchal capitalism framework, if you’re a woman it doesn’t mean you have to have a vagina, or if you’re a woman it doesn’t mean that you have to wear pink, or you have to be a housewife, or you have to stay home with your kids. Which I think is happening. We need to start to publicly and culturally interrogate the canon of gender in America. I just feel like if anything, we need to allow our children to be care free kids and allow them to be whatever they want and instill in them this idea that you can identify with a gender or not. The only thing is you can’t be trans-racial (laughs) or, trans-species. But that’s my tea on gender.
EDDIE: Well I love it. So this may be obvious, or not, but still I would like to ask, do you think that gender and the way people present affects the trajectory of someone as an artist in this society?
ABDU: Oh hell yeah! When navigating the music scene whether it’s in Baltimore or like the American music scene, the east coast music scene, New York, whatever. When you walk into a venue, most of the people are gonna be white dudes, white straight dudes and most likely, most venues in America are owned by white straight men. I’ve toured America hella times, I’ve toured hole in the wall venues to like prestigious venues, and most of the time whether it be at a museum, or an underground club in D.C. or Brooklyn, whether it be a venue in South Carolina or LA, the owner or the guy in charge of the space is going to be a white man. It is rare that I see a woman own a venue; it is rare that I see a woman manage a venue; it is rare that I see a Black person manage or own a venue in America. It’s just very, very rare, and in my experience navigating touring, yes I think your gender and race, because you can’t separate your gender from your race, definitely affects your trajectory in the music scene in America. And as an artist in general, not just in music, in general. Colorism is a huge thing, and I think colorism is actually really bad in art spaces and in the art world. Often when I’m in art spaces, the people who are of color or are black within those spaces are fair skinned or light skinned, but that’s my experience. So I think that yes, we still have a long way to go and I think honestly, as a baby abolitionist I just think that we need to abolish everything from prisons, to museums, to old art institutions and spaces and just start over. Reform I think is not enough, these institutions and spaces and these powerhouses that run the music scene, and that run the art world, and dance world are built on white supremacist foundations, honestly. I think that’s why even though with media and technology, we do on the surface start to see more inclusivity, but the institutions and the infrastructure of our society still remains very prejudiced, racist, sexist, queerphobic, transphobic, all of it. The numbers don’t lie, trans women in general still have a hard time getting jobs, and thriving, especially Black trans women, they are murdered at high rates. Women are still not making as much as men in our society, it’s still -- after all this policy change, after all these laws change and new ones being made, all these hires at these art institutions, when they try to hire women and Black and brown people, the numbers are still the same and show that female women artists or women are still struggling to thrive in our society, along with Black people, and LGBTQ people, and trans people. We have to start this shit over or create alternative systems that can hold us over until capitalism destroys itself.
EDDIE: Well, you just answered the next question I was going to ask you; how do you think that you can change the industry, and what issues have you had to deal with to date, but I have to say you already answered and I agree completely that it is disproportionately unfair to anyone who isn’t a straight white guy to do anything. In the art community you would think that would be different, but I have to agree that it is probably one of the more difficult areas to be recognized if you’re not straight and white, it’s disconcerting of course because these are the people taking control of our culture. I definitely agree that at this point I don’t think reform really is going to be enough because there are so many ways you can disguise injustice through reform, I don’t think people really recognize that, and I think you’re right that we need to start all over again.
ABDU: Exactly. Because it’s like, alright after all these years of reform and try and change this, or fire this person, do this, hire this person, the results are still the same.
EDDIE: Exactly. It’s like are you really doing this to change or are you doing it just to make it appear like you’re doing the right thing even though you’re still perpetuating the same systems that keep you in power over everyone else? Well, this is a good segue into another question I have; what role do you believe music has on the ideology of resistance and revolution especially in conjunction to gender and race?
ABDU: I feel like music creates the anthems of the movement. I think that’s the soul role that music plays within radical movements. It creates the soundtrack of the struggle, it creates anthems for the struggle, and it also archives the way things move within the struggle.
EDDIE: We’ve touched on it here and there throughout the other questions, but I think this’ll be good to put a nice little bow on this segment; what specific messages do you want your art to send to listeners, or is it up to them to create it themselves?
ABDU: You know what; it’s so crazy you asked this question because I was just thinking about that this morning. I was thinking about how people always want artists to define their work for them so I guess it can be more accessible intellectually and mentally. And I was thinking how artists, we shouldn’t have to explain our work. Come up with your own explanation and come up with you own definitions for our work. I feel like that’s the route I’m about to start going with people asking what my music means -- what does my work mean to you? I’m always explaining my shit, I’m always explaining it, like listen I’m this person I had these experiences I did this and because of this and this and that, and this is what comes out! I’m just being an artist; I don’t feel like explaining it all. I feel like visual artists definitely have to always explain their work, in the art world it’s so much elitism that goes on, and it’s built on upper class social culture, and how you have to go to a bougie party and act like you’ve always got something to say, that kind of thing, that’s what the art world breeds. And I feel like the art world requires the visual artist to be able to have this very intellectual statement about their work, and it’s kind of like who are you writing these statements for? Why do you need me to have a theory behind every painting or every performance piece? Like artists have to be philosophers too? Let the philosophy be the art itself, how about that?
EDDIE: Yes, I appreciate that very much so. I agree that if people resonate with the art, they should create the meaning for themselves. The artist made it for them, that’s how they felt and if you are connected to it in some way I think personally speaking, based off of what you said as well, I think the person listening is resonating with it should unpack the meaning for themselves. What works are you especially proud of artistically and or in relation to cultural change or the refusal of current issues?
ABDU: I think “Fiyah”. “Fiyah” I’m very proud of because one, it’s my real first album but two, I did that out of a feeling of wanting to be creatively independent or have creative autonomy, because before “Fiyah” I would collaborate with producers a lot, but that album, most of the tracks I made, I produced. It’s such a scary thing to do and I fucking did it, and I think that whether one thousand people listen to it or 50 people listen to it, it’s a powerful statement to listen to an album that most of the tracks were made by the artist, and this artist is a Black dark skinned queer gender nonconforming bitch from Baltimore. That alone makes a statement and I think would give hope to a lot of people that have similar experiences like that in America. We can take control of our own life, we can be self-determined, and we can have creative autonomy and have people listen to our work and consume it. I’m all about everyone being able to do shit themselves and get rid of this idea that everything is about individualism, it’s about self-determination and autonomy, and if everyone has space to really do shit themselves and have autonomy and that feeling of self-determination, this would be a better society for all. But that’s the thing our society, our culture, our landscape doesn’t allow certain individuals to have that. I read a powerful quote yesterday in this book I’m reading called “Unapologetic: a Black Queer Feminist Mandate for Radical Movements” written by Charlene Carruthers. She quoted Ella Baker, who was a cultural worker and activist from back in the day, she said “strong people don’t need strong leaders.” And I think that if we built a world where everyone felt strong, it felt like they had self-determination, then we wouldn’t need to be in a society where the people are completely dependent on institutional and governmental support in order to just survive. It’s kind of referencing the idea of what America or society was probably like before white colonialism, and capitalism, and slavery etc. It touches on a more indigenous social framework where I feel like people in indigenous societies all feel like they have autonomy over that land or self-determination over that land where everyone knows how to cook, clean, and how to take care of themselves, because capitalism has created this society where we have to depend on all these professionals to even take care of our own body. We should be able to be provided the tools and education in our society to learn how to be take care of ourselves without having to go to the doctor, or without having to rely on institutional and government support just to get by, and I think that’s the energy I’m trying to wield within my life and my hustle, and in navigating my career as an artist. Period.
EDDIE: Period, love that. You’ve answered several of my questions before I even asked them, so we’re pretty much on the last one because you’re on a role. I guess now I have to ask you the final question, so it is; what advice do you have for artists who don’t necessarily fit in to a specific mold or category that society has enforced on the public or the world in general who want to start a career in art and music?
ABDU: Learn the game honey, learn the game. Learn everything you need to know about whatever platforms and resources you have access to. Learn how to use them to its most, and make sure whether you’re a visual artist or a musical artist, make sure that you understand your story and what narrative you’re trying to create through your music. Storytelling is a powerful, powerful tool or talent to have, and I think that your ability to tell a really good story through your work, no matter what medium, it will catch fire, it will be gold, because someone will be able to relate to it because you created an environment within your work that tells a story that is universal. Everyone can relate to each other’s stories, so if you’re able to create a very clear and visceral story, it will register, it will affect other people and they’ll hop on it.
Stick to that, and definitely learn how to use these tools and resources from social media from Instagram, to soundcloud, music software, learn how to do everything yourself. Learn how to manage, and learn what it means to write a press release, learn how to hit up and contact venues, learn how to do everything on your own. So again you have that self-determination and you don’t need anybody to do your shit. That to me, makes space for you to really hustle and thrive and do your thing. It’s not about individualism; it’s really just about equipping yourself with skills to be able to do everything so you can have your independence, because being a successful artist is a collective effort regardless.
As an independent artist myself, I rely on a lot of my peers and allies within the community to get opportunities within the music, and art and cultural world. It’s really about again, being independent. I also want to say the relationship to the work, and the work is the relationship. It’s really also about fostering strong, beautiful mutual relationships with people within your community because if it wasn’t for the community that helped build me, I would not be able to thrive, and be nowhere as an artist. It’s really about fostering community within your work. As long as you have community, you should be good, and I think that in this internet age and this Instagram age, where a lot of -- no shade -- it seem s like a lot of GenZ kids just don’t understand the importance of building intimate relationships offline. I think that’s very vital in not just success as an artist, but success in the wellbeing of an individual, as a person, as a human being on this earth. You have to put in work and foster relationships, beautiful relationships that you can lean on when times get hard or when you need someone to help you figure out something in order to take your shit to the next level. I would say that too, making sure you’re fostering really beautiful relationships and stand accountable within your work, being critically engaged with your work, and also the way you hustle and the way you navigate. Make sure you have integrity and you’re not out here being egocentric. Those people might get successful, but they’ll be miserable.