Tran T. Kim-Trang

CJ: Define your perspective and understanding of the terms "feminist" and "experimental" in filmmaking. How does this relate to your work?

TK: I definitely identify my work as experimental. And by that, I mean media broadly rather than just filmmaking. I would define experimental, for me, as continually contesting the boundaries of formal approaches, as well as content. What I try to do is to make the combination work - where formal approaches might inform the way that we can think differently about particular content. And then vice versa, right? So, bringing in content that's not normally addressed in traditional techniques or conventions.

And then in terms of my understanding of the term feminist, I would start by saying that I absolutely consider feminism's with an S at the end, rather than one solid idea.

CJ: I agree! When people hear the word feminism, they think “oh, they’re just women thinking they're better than men.” But that's not what it is. It's about equality and our unjust system.

TK: Right, right. Many people are somewhat familiar with the three waves. Now there's a fourth wave of feminism. But I think that beyond those waves, there’s transnational feminism. All kinds of varieties or stratifications. Like there's cultural feminists, Marxist feminists...

In terms of how feminism connects to my work, I prioritize women's concerns as women rather than just having concerns about class, race, gender and ableism. I try to think of everything in terms of a feminist lens in the sense of attempting to not only bring equality to women, but also prioritize our concerns.

CJ: That’s great! Thank you. I can definitely see this feminist lens being put into work within the Blindness Series. Out of the eight installments of this series, which one was your favorite to create and why?

TK: I don't have a favorite, but I understand why this question is asked. It makes sense that people might have favorites. I don't. I think what I can say about the series is that each one is uniquely different in the way that if I've solved a problem with one video, then I'm going to set another challenge for myself for the next one. It's kind of like “Oh, I haven't told a story yet. So, in the next one, let's try to tell a really good story.”

For example, the hysterical blindness tape isn’t me trying to be a journalist. So how then do I approach this topic, of Cambodian women and hysterical blindness? If I'm not a journalist, then how, as an artist, do I approach this topic that's going back and revisiting a historical event without interviewing people and asking them to give me their memories of it?

I appreciate each one uniquely, and the opportunities to push myself to grow with each piece. I think that that's really the benefit for me of making a series, rather than a one-off project.

CJ: I see. So, you didn’t plan out each part of the series and instead just went with the flow by constantly asking yourself what to do next.

TK: I did plan out the entire series, but not to such depth as to say “okay, this is exactly what I'm going to do.” I knew I wanted to address these six topics with an introduction and epilogue.

Looking at cosmetic surgery, the focus had been on why Asian people have eyelid surgery done, the focus is on the individual and their choices. I was less interested in that than I was about the institution that promotes and sells this idea. So not only the cosmetic surgery industry that profits from these choices, but also society at large and the reason why some of us don't think that our eyelids are good enough to fit a particular standard of beauty.

So, that led me to decide that I would put myself on the line. I pretended to be a patient and go to these surgeons to ask them to give me their sales pitch. I asked, “why should I get this done?” and the video unfolds with their sales pitch.

“You have a really good crease, but you know, I can improve that for you.”

“You can put on makeup.”

It's their rationale as to why I need to have this, but none of them said “you don't need anything done.” This was a consultation. They should fairly evaluate and assess me and there should be the possibility of saying “no, you don't need this surgery.” But none of them did that.

CJ: Because they need their money!

TK: Yeah! They’re just financially motivated not to say no. And then there's all of the reasons that they gave me as to why I needed it done even while complimenting me at the same time that I already have good creases, as if that means anything.

In my mind, you are asked to be blind to your own beauty and possibilities in order to see how the world sees you, right? And be convinced that you need to change in this very superficial way. I got a little pushback in terms of how I shouldn’t be so essentialist and how not all Asian eyelids are one certain way. People would say, “What's wrong with forming our bodies in the way that we want them to look? That doesn't necessarily mean that we're subscribing to a racist societal perspective of us, because we’re not.”

CJ: Ah, so you got a lot of critical feedback after the video was released from Asians accusing you of only targeting them.

TK: Yeah, from critics and other Asian Americans that accused me of judging them. It's sort of like, “we can still be aware of racism, but the choice to have eyelid surgery does not mean that we hate ourselves.”

CJ: I can see that. But also at the same time, I think the majority of the reason why people would get eyelid surgery is because of the influences that you're trying to talk about in society.

TK: Yes. I always try to remind people that the video turns its camera on the infrastructure, the business and the institution that does this. Because all of the criticism about my position is that you're attacking the individual by critiquing their choices, essentializing Asian eyelids and the way that eyelids aren't what makes us Asians. But I’m not, and that's not the focus of the video.

I constantly have to remind people that this is more of an institutional critique than about individual choices. But I don't disagree with them. Clearly, eyelids are not what make us Asians and Asian Americans. But that's not what I'm talking about.

CJ: Right, then they must have misinterpreted the message behind the film. Did you intentionally only want to include surgeons located in the Hollywood area? Do you believe beauty standards within Hollywood are different from the rest of the country?

TK: I did at the time. I don't know if it's still true anymore, but Beverly Hills was the cosmetic surgery capital of the world, so that's why the video is located there. In terms of Hollywood standards of beauty, I think it has exported that to the rest of the world. I used to read stories of Korean entertainers and stars getting eyelid surgery, nose jobs, and so on. I think this Western standard of beauty has spread all over the world. A change might be the trend of Disney Princesses and how they’ve expanded on different race, color, and ethnicity.

CJ: I get what you're saying. I definitely think that Disney and other Hollywood Studios in general have been trying to be more inclusive and represent other cultures. I think there was a Filipino Disney movie that came out recently. I’d say the media's evolution is going on the right path.

TK: Yeah. I think that, as limited as that can be, it’s still a good thing. But that comes from an outside force that is pressuring the entertainment world in Hollywood to change.

CJ: I agree. I am also glad that thanks to social media, different cultures and lifestyles are being broadcasted more publicly and influence companies to cater toward them.

Moving on, the idea behind Landless in Second Life is so powerful! It really brings the community of struggling immigrants together. Have you ever considered turning the installation into an actual online multiplayer game?

TK: My relationship with gaming is that I'm not a coder. I come up with the concept, I do the research, I design… the gameplay, the story, the characters and all that. But it's been such a fraught relationship, because to make even a casual game takes a lot of time and teamwork. I assembled teams of students and computer science professors. I went down that rabbit hole for a couple of years, trying to develop another project into a casual game. I'm not so enthusiastic and eager to get back into building a game, unless I can do it myself or find a coder collaborator.

In terms of the installation, I don't know if it still exists anymore, it's been so long since I've been in Second Life. But you know, it was really fun to build the machinima project.

The back story is that before our mother died of lung cancer, we had pooled our money and started a fund for her, since she didn't have a retirement fund. At some point, we were thinking that if we grew it enough, we could actually buy her a house.

But this didn't come to fruition before she died. Years later, I interviewed my siblings asking them what that house would look like. I just had this concept of if I could build her a virtual house, then any design is possible. The project is this plot of land on which we built this house based on their interviews, almost serving to be her afterlife. This made me think about the Asian tradition of burning paper products, whether it's money or houses or cars. This sort of is the virtual equivalent to when you buy paper houses, like mansions, in order to burn and send them to the afterworld.

The entire family is there. My siblings and I are there in this house with her. The other idea is that we would do these eternal tasks to make her happy. So, for me, it was playing piano - “Moonlight Sonata” - in this world over and over again forever.

CJ: Aw, that’s cute! I love how this project is an ode to bringing not only your mother, but the culture you come from to a modern medium of virtual reality.

TK: Yep! So that's the machinima that makes up the three projection installations. It exists in the world as an installation and as videos, but I don't know about a game. I mean, I think other people build virtual Second Life replicas of real world places. I’m less interested in that because for me, the question is: Is there a parallel experience of leaving one physical country to go to another physical country, with going from the physical world into a virtual world? How do I become a digital citizen of this world? As for buying land and building houses, I didn't go so far as some of the others. Second lifers had jobs and marriages that basically duplicated their real life in this virtual world.

But yeah, that's the Second Life Project. So, the short answer is no, it's not going to become a game. But I am still interested in creating games, because I think that they have a completely different potential in terms of granting the user more agency than traditionally linear media can. But it's such a hard thing to do, so I'm kind of less enthusiastic about it.

CJ: I'm totally with you. I do not like coding myself. In the future, if you were to do another game, I would just say to find a coder. Find someone who's experienced making games, and then just focus on what you actually want to do. Was this your first time using machinima?

TK: Yeah, it was. I still remember being in the computer lab during summer break at school. It was so fun because I had all of these characters, and each one was pulled up on individual computers. As the director, I literally ran from one computer to another to start somebody's movement in order to be recorded. It's sort of like the shorthand version of making a narrative, or any kind of piece with characters and actors without actually needing to work with other people. Overall, it was a really positive experience.

CJ: That's awesome! Better than coding.

Okay, so next question: what was the inspiration behind incorporating puzzles into Arizona 9? Could you talk a little more about that project?

TK: The idea within Arizona 9 was that I was really moved by this news story about Brisenia Flores that I read. Her case went to trial around the same time that Gabby Gifford was shot at this political outing.

Then there was this nine year old girl who was shot at that same event, and all these news stories covering the girl's death. It's tragic and super sad, right? I was reading this other case at the same time about another girl who was shot and killed, Brisenia Flores, but there was hardly any press on it. The first girl was white and all over the press, while the second was Latina with little coverage. And I just started becoming increasingly bothered by that discrepancy. Being a nine year old girl is really significant for me, because that's when I first came to America. Strangely, more coincidently, at the time, my son was also nine. There was this confluence of nine year old kids.

And I was playing a lot… way too much, I hate to admit it, but I was into a lot of casual games, like, Bejeweled or Tap Zoo. We were just spending so much time playing these games. I just went down deep into that rabbit hole, and so these things just came together. If I'm spending this much time playing casual games, why don't I try to make one?

In terms of the content, that was the confluence of nines, girls, and gun violence to create a “social impact game”. That's a phrase that people have used to describe games for social change. I find that games have the potential to give the player a much more active role in addressing social issues. The story of Brisenia’s murder is that the border vigilantes were trying to raise money for their cause, and they got into drug trafficking. They targeted her father who they thought was dealing drugs, and they came to her house trying to rob him and then killed Brisenia and her father.

CJ: Knowing Arizona 9 is based on serious topics such as gun violence, would you encourage children to play the game? How do you feel about learning about political issues at a young age?

TK: The game is designed not to put that kind of information in your face. It's designed to take this very tragic, very serious topic and make it for younger players to also engage with this topic as well. Very young children are affected by gun violence and school shootings. Only since the Parkland student activism has youth leadership in this really taken off. Otherwise, it's been adults who have mostly been in control of that conversation.

I think the way that the game is designed as puzzles not only references casual gaming, but it's also a way for everybody to participate and learn about, you know, these characters. So, there's two puzzles, one for Brisenia Flores and one for Shawna Forde, one of the perpetrators who killed Flores. She was the mastermind behind the killing. The way that I designed the pieces for Brisenia’s puzzle includes references like her brand new puppy that she got and was sleeping in the living room with on the night she was killed. Doves and heart shapes are on the edge as contours of the puzzle pieces, and then you put them together. In a visual way, they're referencing who this character might be. And then once you've assembled the puzzle together, her skin tone changes from super pale to very dark through three stages. This touches on racial inequality.

A really positive aspect of making and playing a game is that the player gets to inhabit multiple roles. For Shawna Forde, she's not depicted as the villain because I also see an interpretation of her as a victim in this as well. If you learn her background, in her life story, she was also victimized. And so, for her puzzle, you'll have guns and marijuana leaves on the border of the puzzle pieces. If you're observant, it will tell you clues about the character. And then once that's assembled, her portrait changes through three different ages: a girl, young adult, and a middle aged woman who was part of that killing. This pushes the boundaries of what puzzles can do. It’s to inform you of the character, because they're not just portraits.

The third part is a visual novel that imagines that tragic incident in a different way.

CJ: That offers great insight, thank you! When I first tried completing the puzzle, I was unsure about the messages behind it. Your explanation and intentions were very helpful. So long story short, do you feel like it’s important to teach these life threatening issues to young ages?

TK: Yeah, I do. I think the future is going to change with the younger generations playing a heavier part, more power and agency to the young! I'm so inspired by the Parkland folks and young adults themselves. And the environmental movement led by young people. I do think that they all have a lot to say and would love to hear from young people and kids about some of the serious issues that we have.

CJ: That's great that you're so considerate of younger people, because I feel like those who are older always think that they know best. I'm happy that you made a product that sheds light on giving younger generations a voice.

Now that you’ve become an educator, I was curious to know if you’ve always wanted to become a college professor? How did you get into teaching?

TK: I never imagined myself to be a teacher. Video makers, colleagues and peers who are artists, knew of my work. We were all part of an adjunct class of college teachers. And when they would move out of town, they would recommend me for their part time gigs. I ended up teaching at four schools in one semester. I was literally driving from my home in LA, down to San Diego, and then up to Valencia to teach two classes on the same day. And once I got a little experience, I started applying for full time jobs. These opportunities just eventually come up.

CJ: That's crazy that you didn't expect to ever be a teacher and then all of a sudden, you're teaching four classes at once. That sounds like a crazy experience.

TK: I think the ideal version would be if I could make money from my art, that's what I would prefer to do. I've gotten my fair share of grants through the years, and I've been pretty lucky to be successful at getting grants. But as you know, we were just talking about how costly it would be just to make a game and hire coders. The grants aren't enough, especially when you have to pay the bills. I've come to really love teaching because I gain so much from working with young minds, and I’m so lucky to be able to teach in my area as a way of making a living because I could be doing something else for my day job totally unrelated to what I'm doing.

Basically, it all feeds into each other. When I do my own work, that feeds into my teaching, and when I teach it gives me ideas and inspires me to make work. It's now a symbiotic relationship. It's a privilege to do what you love and to be able to make money from it.

CJ: Yeah, that's great information. People always discredit being a teacher, but the way you put it sounds like an amazing way to stay inspired. You're getting paid to do what you love.

A lot of your work is inspired from hardships of immigration. Do you feel as if these hardships of immigration have evolved in any way from back when your career started versus now? What has changed?

TK: I think things have improved for sure at this point in my career. I know more artists of color now. And even as an immigrant, I'm still doing work and getting opportunities. But for each wave of new immigrants comes different hardships. I just saw an animated documentary called Flee about this Afghan refugee. In the interview, he was talking about his experience fleeing Afghanistan, going to Russia, trying to get to Western Europe, and just being considered “illegal.” We fled the Vietnam War, but we were sponsored by the US government. Our journey was dangerous and difficult, but there was a trajectory, an official trajectory. We had a church to sponsor and help us. I am thankful for having a different refugee experience. Some refugee groups are still stuck in camps in terrible conditions.

There's just so many hardships. But in terms of the art world, representation and societal issues of diversity, equity and inclusion have improved. Could it be much more improved? Absolutely.

CJ: I agree! Speaking of improvements, if you could add any new features to your Woman In Technology game, what would you make? I saw a little bit of it on your website.

TK: Women in Technology was a commissioned piece by a friend and fellow artist, Natalie Bookchin, making a much bigger game called Meta Pet, focusing on issues of biotech and labor. The Women in Technology game is a concentration game. Technology is a little bit misleading here because it's not just technology at large, but specifically biotechnology. I collaborated with Karl Mihail on a project called Gene Genies Worldwide. We wanted to keep that theme and make a concentration game to teach people about women in biotech. If I were to refocus it, I’d do it about women in gaming because that's another area that I'm interested in.

CJ: A game about girl gamers would be fun. So because this was a commissioned piece, you didn't have as much creative freedom?

TK: We did, but it was more of a structural limitation. The game had to be short and casual to fit inside the main game.

CJ: Going back to the Blindness Series, what was the message behind the scene of two Asian women having sex blindfolded in the Kore installment? What does the blindfold symbolize?

TK: The concept is that, if you agree with Freud, male sexuality is very vision based, which is in alignment with the male gaze. Men are aroused by what they see, women’s sexuality is more about touch. The blindfold is a way to test it out. I asked these two women to be intimate with each other while wearing these blindfolds. The video is also addressing AIDS and the gender inequality between how men and women were treated during the AIDS crisis. There's also the advanced stages of AIDS, where you could experience blindness. That's how the whole thing came together from many different nodes.

So it's sexuality, as well as vision and blindness. All of that comes through in the blindfold and the two women having sex. The way that it's shot was also inspired by this notion of haptic visuality. Haptic visuality is a different understanding of vision. The most advantageous thing about vision is that it allows us to be at a physical distance from what we see, and there's perceived safety and power in that. So haptic visuality challenges that. What if you close that distance? What if what you see can be in close proximity as much as touch? Haptic visuality operates similarly to touch. It's the risk of something that could touch your eyeball, since they are quite sensitive.

It's not just literal, but also about what it means to look. What does it mean to be implicated in looking? This all challenges and counters the male gaze. You can be an invisible entity and still look with privilege, in terms of not being at risk or even having to connect with anything. And it's sort of like this very individualistic self-serving, kind of look. Both of those ideas in the end are shown through the haptic visual way that the video is shot. The way that I approached it was to make the camera a surrogate eye. (This is also addressed later on in the surveillance tape, as part of the Blindness Series as well.)

So, if the camera is a surrogate eye, how would it behave? It behaves as if it could touch what it sees. That's why much of the video is in close up (sometimes extreme close up) and everything is grainy. You can actually see the physicality of the screen, not literally the glass screen, but the screen of the image. With that top layer of the image where the grain comes through, you can imagine pixels jostling around.

Those are some of the ideas around Kore, the blindfold and male gaze.

CJ: That's very interesting. When you mentioned men are more sexually aroused by vision and women by touch. I also like your idea of using the camera as the eye and experimenting with blindfolds. That's really cool.

TK: Good. I'm glad. It's a lot to unpack. I like to pack all of this into my videos. People have told me over the years that I should just unpack it, questioning why I make it so dense and chock full? I guess I'm just more interested in activating the viewer and seeing what other people have interpreted, what they got out of that film. The videos also demand repeat viewing.

Chelsea Jimenez is a senior undergraduate student from University of California, Davis double majoring in Design and Cinema & Digital Media, along with a minor in Communications. She is a passionate empathizer who uses visual storytelling to create memorable, human-centered experiences. Currently, Chelsea is working as the Lead Visual Designer for two on-campus centers: the Educational Opportunity Program, which helps serve first-generation and low income students, and Center for Regional Change, which conducts research to support the building of healthy, equitable, and sustainable regions in California and beyond.

This interview was conducted via Zoom from Davis, CA to Los Angeles, CA in February 2021.