Building Social Capital Through Mutual Listening
The Petaluma Conversations Empathy Circle Model

In this interview, Edwin Rutsch speaks with organizers Lou Zweier and John Crowley about the history and operations of Petaluma Conversations (Petaluma, CA). They discuss how the program utilizes Empathy Circles to bridge local political and social divides, build social capital, and combat civic isolation. The conversation also explores broader community-building strategies and how Petaluma’s model could be replicated in other cities.

Related Links

• Petaluma Conversations Program Page
  The official hub on the Aqus Community website details the program's structure. It explains that the initiative uses reflective listening in small table groups to help participants understand each other, rather than debate or persuade. The sessions typically run in 4-week series on Tuesday evenings at the Petaluma Regional Library. 

• Aqus Hosted Conversations Calendar
  This page highlights Aqus Community's mission to bridge social divides by organizing "hosted conversations," and features a calendar of upcoming local discussion events like Petaluma Conversations, The Ideas Club, Nonprofit Table Talk, and weekly morning socials. 

• Aqus Community Event Calendar
  This page features the Aqus Community's calendar of local events, displaying a wide variety of gatherings—such as morning socials, writing groups, language conversation tables, and community dinners—designed to foster connection and build social capital. 

• Petaluma Conversations - a Reflecting Listening Project (YouTube)  
  A short documentary-style video highlighting the project's approach to replacing online arguments with curiosity and relationships. 

Building Social Capital Through Listening: The Petaluma Conversations Model

In 2018, the city of Petaluma, California, found itself deeply fractured over an unlikely subject: a proposed public art installation featuring bathtubs on 40-foot stilts. As online vitriol escalated and real-world friendships began to tear apart, local community builder John Crowley realized an intervention was necessary.

Crowley, founder of the Aqus Community nonprofit, reached out to communications expert and Empathy Center board member Lou Zweier. Together, they closed Crowley’s café for an evening, handpicked some of the most adversarial online voices, and brought them together for face-to-face dialogue. Using the Empathy Circle practice—a structured process of active listening—they asked participants to simply hear and repeat back opposing viewpoints until both sides felt understood.

The result was immediate and transformative. Opponents stood up, shook hands, and admitted, "You’re much nicer in person than you are online."

This single evening birthed Petaluma Conversations, an ongoing public listening project that has since become a powerful model for municipal community building and bridging social divides.

How the Model Works

Today, Petaluma Conversations operates in four-week blocks, meeting four times a year at the Petaluma Regional Library—a deliberately neutral civic space. Each session draws anywhere from 15 to 40 residents.

The evenings begin with a whole-group gathering where facilitators set the tone, emphasizing that the goal is mutual understanding, not agreement or problem-solving. Participants then break into small Empathy Circles of about four people.

The organizers offer a mix of discussion prompts. Topics range from highly contentious global and local issues—such as the Israel-Hamas conflict, local ballot measures, and elections—to universal human experiences like anger, fear, and love. Crucially, they always provide a "no-topic" circle, allowing residents to simply connect and talk about whatever is on their minds.

Defusing Trolls and Building Social Capital

The impact of Petaluma Conversations extends far beyond the library walls. Crowley notes that when he sees online arguments flaming up, he directly invites the "trolls" to attend a Petaluma Conversations session. Often, this simple invitation to engage face-to-face is enough to quell the online hostility.

More broadly, the project is an exercise in building "social capital." The Aqus Community philosophy views a healthy society as a fabric woven from individual threads of relationships, all of which begin with a simple conversation. By providing a structured, safe container for these interactions, Petaluma Conversations is actively building the community's capacity to tolerate difference and listen deeply.

Replicating the Success

For community leaders and activists looking to replicate this model in their own towns, Lou Zweier offers a clear roadmap:

1. Get Trained: Start by taking the Empathy Circle Facilitator Training offered by The Empathy Center.

2. Build a Core Team: Gather a small group of sturdy, capable listeners in your community. Practice holding Empathy Circles together for several weeks until the process feels natural.

3. Launch Small: Once you have a trained team capable of holding the space, invite the public. Host the events in accessible, neutral spaces like a public library community room.

In an era of increasing isolation and polarization, Petaluma Conversations proves that communities do not have to succumb to division. By intentionally holding space for structured empathy, we can reweave the social fabric of our towns, one conversation at a time.

Photos from First Petaluma Converstations

Short Meeting Overview
In this interview, Edwin Rutsch speaks with organizers Lou Zweier and John Crowley about the history and operations of Petaluma Conversations. They discuss how the program utilizes Empathy Circles to bridge local political and social divides, build social capital, and combat civic isolation. The conversation also explores broader community-building strategies and how Petaluma’s model could be replicated in other cities.

Paragraph Meeting Overview
The primary purpose of this meeting is to document the origins, mechanics, and societal impact of Petaluma Conversations to serve as a reference for community-based dialogue. John Crowley and Lou Zweier detail how a polarizing local dispute over a public art installation in 2018 prompted them to organize structured, face-to-face listening sessions using Empathy Circle practices to restore civility. Throughout the interview, they explain their event logistics—hosting 4-week sessions at the local library covering diverse political and personal topics—and share success stories of participants bridging deep ideological divides. Furthermore, Crowley outlines the wider mission of the Aqus Community nonprofit to combat isolation by intentionally fostering social capital, highlighting Petaluma as a proactive model for municipal human connection.

Step by Step Outline

Introductions and the Origin of Petaluma Conversations
Time code: 00:00:02 - 00:07:06

• Core Discussion Points: Edwin introduces the focus on Petaluma Conversations. Lou Zweier and John Crowley introduce themselves. John recounts how a controversial 2018 public art proposal (bathtubs on stilts) severely fractured the community online. In response, he closed his cafe and invited the most adversarial voices to engage in face-to-face reflective listening, facilitated by Lou and Edwin, which successfully humanized the opposing participants.

Structuring the Public Listening Project
Time code: 00:07:06 - 00:13:30

• Core Discussion Points: Lou details the current logistics: meetings run in 4-week blocks at the neutral Petaluma Regional Library, drawing 15 to 40 people. Evenings begin with a community circle outlining guidelines, followed by small-group Empathy Circles discussing a mix of local, national, and "no-topic" subjects (e.g., local Measure J, the Israel-Hamas conflict, or processing emotions like anger and fear).

Community Impact and Defusing Online Trolls
Time code: 00:13:30 - 00:22:15

• Core Discussion Points: The organizers reflect on how the project builds individual "capacity" for listening to differences. John notes he actively invites online trolls to these in-person sessions, which frequently quells toxic behavior. They contrast the success of their mutually respectful dialogue format against the often hostile environment of standard City Council public comment periods, noting that simply feeling understood diffuses anger.

Advice for Replicating the Model
Time code: 00:22:15 - 00:28:24

• Core Discussion Points: For those wanting to start similar projects, Lou recommends taking the Empathy Center’s facilitator training and practicing with a small group of strong listeners before opening it to the public. They discuss potential future expansions, such as problem-solving sessions prior to city council meetings, and highlight spin-off initiatives like a "listening bench" for seniors.

Expanding Social Capital with Aqus Community
Time code: 00:28:24 - 00:39:03

• Core Discussion Points: John explains the broader mission of the Aqus Community nonprofit: building civic trust and treating human connection as essential infrastructure. He shares examples of other successful community-building events, such as bead-exchange mixers and block-party style neighborhood dinners. The interview concludes with a discussion about Petaluma becoming a national model for municipal social capital.

Transcripts

00:02 Edwin Rutsch: We're here to talk about the Petaluma Conversations program. It's a program in Petaluma, California, that I reference a lot for in-person community dialogues and Empathy Circles, or Empathy Cafes. I thought I should talk to the two people who started it and are running it, to hear how the program goes and learn as much as possible about it. You could start by introducing yourselves. Lou, if you want to go first.

00:34 Lou Zweier: I'm Lou Zweier. I'm a longtime Petaluma resident, and John and I are friends and have worked together for a long time.

00:51 John Crowley: My name is John Crowley. As you can probably tell from the accent, I'm originally from Dublin, Ireland, with a little bit of time in Germany. I've been in the United States, specifically in Petaluma, for the past 33 years, and I consider myself a community builder.

01:01 Edwin Rutsch: You are a community builder. Thank you, John. Maybe we should start with John telling the origin story of Petaluma Conversations.

01:11 John Crowley: It started about eight years ago, around 2018, when a proposed art piece was unveiled. The art piece was coming to town; it wasn't actually built yet. The plans were unveiled, and half the people in Petaluma loved it, and the other half hated it with vitriol and nastiness. I saw friends of mine being really horrible and nasty to other friends, and those friends in turn being horrible back. It just got worse and worse. Parts of my friends' personalities came out that I had never seen before. Part of it, I think, is driven by the fact that we're online, distanced, and don't have a relationship with the people we have differences with.

What we did was close my cafe here in town, Aqus Cafe, one evening. Before that, I reached out to Lou and asked, "What can we do about this?" It was dividing the city in two, friendships were being lost, and the level of vitriol and nastiness was something I had never seen before. It was all around this proposed art piece. A well-known artist, Brian Goggin from San Francisco, proposed five bathtubs on 40-foot-high stilts with claw-foot legs, as though they were running away from wherever they were attached to. It was whimsical art in the genre of Cat in the Hat style. They were supposed to be installed downtown, and people just took up arms. It was horrible to see.

We had a conversation. Lou and I met at one of your juggling workshops years before. You were a communications expert, and we had a conversation about what we could do. We closed the cafe one evening early. Prior to that, I had gone through Facebook, Nextdoor, and a couple of other online sites, and handpicked some of the most egregious people who were trolling each other. Many of these people I didn't know; I probably knew about a third of them. I brought them to the cafe, and we had five or six facilitators, yourselves included. We divided the group carefully into tables with equal numbers of those for and against the proposed art piece.

We did a process called reflective listening. One participant would start by selecting somebody else to be a reflective listener and explain why they liked or didn't like the bathtubs. The listener would then reflect back what they thought the other person said. In many cases, it was garbled or misinterpreted. They went back and forth until both parties agreed they understood how the other person felt. The interesting part was that many people were using words they had never used before, like, "I hear you like the bathtubs because you think they're beautiful."

05:44 Lou Zweier: What John is describing is an Empathy Circle process. I had learned the Empathy Circle process from Edwin just a little bit before that. I had gone to some public spaces with Edwin doing the Empathy Tent, where you take a tent into a public space and provide listening where there's difficulty. I had learned that practice. I don't think that night we called it an Empathy Circle, but Edwin and a couple of Empathy Circle folks came up. I also gathered three or four other people who were good listeners and quickly familiarized them with the process, doing it with them a little bit as preparation.

That night we probably had half a dozen circles in the cafe. My memory is it went really well. People spoke and listened to each other. At the end, people at my table said, "You're much nicer in person than you are online."

After that, John and I decided we should turn this into a public listening project. We did it at Aqus Cafe for maybe a year, and then we decided it should be in a more neutral place. Aqus was identified as a pretty progressive place, and we wanted our public listening project to be focused on crossing social and political divides. We picked a more neutral place, the library, which is in the middle of town. We've been doing this for eight years.

We do it in blocks of four weeks, four times a year. Typically we get between 15 and 25 people, sometimes more. I think maybe 30 or 35 is the most we've ever had on a given night.

08:12 John Crowley: I'll have to disagree with that. I think we had a lot more depending on the election cycle and what the burning issue is. I think we had over 40 people when we were discussing the downtown hotel just before the last election. It was a hot topic. Half the city council showed up, a lot of the candidates showed up, and many people who were either totally for or totally against the proposed hotel. It was the same kind of thing, so we've had good turnouts.

09:02 Lou Zweier: I've trained about a dozen people who have been facilitators for us. The way we run the evenings is we have a whole community circle for everyone that comes. We do an introduction, state why we're there, and talk about the purpose and principles of coming together to listen to one another for mutual understanding, even if we disagree. I describe the Empathy Circle process. In the past, I called it a mutual listening practice because I didn't want to scare away conservative folks who might bristle at the idea that they have to have empathy for somebody.

We usually announce two topics for the week, typically a political topic and a personal topic. We put those on a board, and then we ask the attendees if they have other topics they'd like to discuss. We list them, vote on them, form groups, and do Empathy Circle practice for an hour and 15 to an hour and 20 minutes. We come together as a whole group at the end, and people have a chance to share what they're taking away from the conversation.

10:23 Edwin Rutsch: Have you had other contentious topics, bringing different sides together?

10:31 Lou Zweier: We've had very contentious topics, like the Israel-Hamas conflict in the Middle East. We just finished a series and had that as a topic for two circles. We've had everything you can imagine: racism, patriotism, LGBTQ issues, DEI.

11:05 John Crowley: Another big one was Measure J, which is local to Sonoma County but affected the ag industry quite a lot. There was a lot of emotion around that issue.

11:29 Lou Zweier: The racetrack was another one that had a lot of people talking. We try to pick something local or personal, and then something with a larger frame, like a broader political issue. We also offer a "no topic" circle each night, where you just talk about whatever you want. It's interesting to see what people come for. This last series was right near the election. I had election topics, but nobody wanted to talk about them. We did wind up having a circle on Prop 40, but many times people just come for connection. They want to be with other people and have a chance to talk.

12:26 Edwin Rutsch: How's the breakout? You have a conflict topic, a local issue, and a "talk about whatever you want" option. Where are people attracted to?

12:39 Lou Zweier: Often we wind up having a circle on something a participant proposes. Usually, at least one of the things we propose isn't talked about. This series, the idea of talking about emotions emerged. Somebody proposed talking about anger, and we had a circle on that. In subsequent weeks, we had circles on love and fear. We wound up having three topics on three different emotions.

13:27 Edwin Rutsch: What kind of effect is it having on the community? What's your take on it?

13:42 John Crowley: Even eight years ago, people stood up, shook hands, and said, "You're a lot nicer in person than you're online." When they meet each other online again, they will be more civil because they have this relationship. Having it in the community as a way to talk about our differences, rather than throwing metaphorical rocks at each other, has an effect.

I've used it whenever I've seen anything flame up online. I've basically said to the person trying to troll me, "Let's meet for a conversation at Petaluma Conversations." Generally, it quells the conversation. That person might not show up—nine times out of ten they don't—but they'll stop trolling. The odd person actually does show up and have a conversation.

15:00 Lou Zweier: You're really great about reaching out to people for one-on-one conversations like that, John. I know people who have come to Petaluma Conversations and shared that they thought they were good listeners, but realized they need to be quiet and listen more. It has had an impact on their relationships with their partners, kids, friends, or at work. John and I view this as a capacity-building project in the community. We're helping to develop people's capacity to listen to difference. I state that explicitly in my opening, and I think we are having that effect.

16:01 Edwin Rutsch: I just saw a documentary called Bucks County USA about polarization in Pennsylvania. They showed school board meetings turning into knock-down, drag-out screaming fests. When I see that, I think communities need a practice like yours to address those conflicts.

16:39 Lou Zweier: What's interesting about city council meetings is that public comment periods aren't really a dialogue. People get up and speak, and the council members aren't allowed to respond. I don't know how heard people actually feel. I've told the clerk at the city council that saying "thank you" to the speaker is important because it acknowledges they said something.

An extended process gives people time to speak, be reflected back, and understand they're being heard. Knowing you're understood, even if you're not agreed with or don't get what you want, makes a difference. Knowing your position has been considered makes a difference.

18:27 John Crowley: An idea we haven't done yet is to have an in-person or Zoom meeting before a contentious city council meeting to help people feel heard by the other side. City council and school board meetings can devolve into screaming matches where whoever screams the loudest thinks they are being heard. It's on our list of things to do.

19:29 Edwin Rutsch: Lou, I think I've heard you say groups have contacted you to help with different community events.

19:36 Lou Zweier: That is true. A group in town called Connecting Across Differences focuses on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They organized a talk, and Petaluma Conversations organized listening circles at the end so people could talk about what they heard. This just happened again in the fall with a Palestinian-American speaker from Gaza. We had listening circles, and we wound up having circles at Petaluma Conversations about it because people wanted to continue talking. Other groups in Petaluma have reached out for training in listening or Empathy Circle practice.

20:54 John Crowley: Nice friendships happen around these events organically as repeated contact is made. We're gathering our facilitators for a social dinner soon, and sometimes we invite everyone who has ever participated. I know quite a few friendships have formed. We've had over 250 people come to Petaluma Conversations over the years.

21:49 Edwin Rutsch: I interact with many people interested in Empathy Circles, especially for in-person events. Do you have any advice for those thinking about starting something like this in their community?

22:21 Lou Zweier: My advice would be to take the facilitator training the Empathy Center puts on. Then, gather a few people who you think are good listeners and sturdy individuals. Have them take the training or start doing Empathy Circles with them so they get the practice. After doing half a dozen circles together, you're ready to invite more people in. Once you publicize, you'll get more people than can fit in one circle, so you need trained people to hold those spaces.

23:06 John Crowley: The local public library is a great place to initiate these things. Coffee shops tend to be loud and noisy, but we're lucky to have a wonderful library here in Petaluma with a great community room.

23:25 Edwin Rutsch: Start small with one circle, connect with us online for support, and grow it from there. As people take part, they become familiar with it and can facilitate breakout circles.

23:45 Lou Zweier: Another iteration I've been thinking about is moving the Empathy Circle process into a problem-solving context. It's focused on mutual understanding, but you could start by making a connection, and then move into problem-solving. Given that we understand each other, what might we want to do about it together? We haven't done that yet, but I'd like to see us evolve into it, similar to what John mentioned about holding sessions before city council meetings.

24:47 Edwin Rutsch: And you said you had some city council members take part too?

24:55 John Crowley: Yes, they've been coming multiple times over a period of time.

25:04 Edwin Rutsch: Any other ideas for the future or aspects to add to it?

25:09 John Crowley: A couple of years ago, we had a session at the local Rotary clubs. We presented to two of the three clubs in town, and it was very well-received. They launched off on their own.

25:29 Lou Zweier: We did a demonstration with a guy from the audience at the Rotary. He was so moved that he started a series of conversations that went on for a year or two. Eventually, he didn't have the bandwidth to keep going, but a woman from that group formed "The Listening Bench," a project where seniors are trained to listen to other seniors at the senior center and library. I've done training for them, too.

26:30 Edwin Rutsch: Any other stories that stand out or had a particular impact?

26:40 John Crowley: Many activists are aware of us and have attended. The program acts as a backdrop to help people realize there is an alternate route to take rather than throwing metaphorical rocks at each other.

27:22 Lou Zweier: I exposed the interfaith community in Petaluma to Empathy Circles, and they use the practice sometimes. A group in Santa Rosa used it for a while, too. People recognize the value of talking and listening to each other, but they are often afraid because they don't feel prepared or lack a safe structure. If it feels too risky, they won't engage.

28:24 Edwin Rutsch: Aqus does a lot of community-building events. What else do you do?

28:31 John Crowley: There are two Aqus entities in town. Aqus Cafe is celebrating 20 years. Its point is to be a third space, a gathering place where community happens, based on my family's pub in Ireland. Parallel to that, we have the Aqus Community nonprofit, which is over 10 years old. Its mission is to build social capital and civic trust through creating connections and bringing people out of isolation.

We believe a decent community is built out of threads, and each thread is a relationship started by a conversation. For example, at a recent launch event, we gave people different colored glass beads. To get a drink, you had to pay with three different colored beads. This encouraged people to walk up to complete strangers and say, "Hey, do you want to swap beads?" The room was abuzz with conversations that led to friendships. All our events have that aspect.

31:47 Lou Zweier: John is the master in Petaluma of bringing groups together. He organizes gatherings for media people, and another called "Drinks with Shrinks" for mental health professionals. They're great for making connections.

32:15 Edwin Rutsch: Petaluma seems to be at the cutting edge of social community events.

32:29 John Crowley: We started the nonprofit 10 years ago to build social capital. People used to think community was just the icing on the cake, but post-COVID, we realize it's the meat and potatoes of a decent society. Our work is being noticed nationwide. I recently attended a conference in Seattle by the US Chamber of Connection. The premise is: who looks after the human connection aspect of a city? At some stage, I firmly believe all cities will have a director of social capital to evaluate whether civic actions increase or decrease human connection.

34:19 Edwin Rutsch: Lou, you're working with Braver Angels and holding events there, too?

34:28 Lou Zweier: Yes, that organization focuses on crossing political divides. We have a Sonoma County chapter, and I'm a workshop moderator. Aqus Cafe is a supporter of Braver Angels.

34:41 Edwin Rutsch: Were you going to hold events called Talking Politics?

34:47 Lou Zweier: Talking Politics is something I have been doing in Sonoma County using the Empathy Circle practice to discuss political issues within the Braver Angels context. Petaluma Conversations is similar, but open to the general public.

35:28 Edwin Rutsch: Anything else you'd like to share about the program and how it's going?

35:48 John Crowley: We use the cafe as a sandbox to experiment with creating community. We're currently hosting community dinners where we invite specific groups—like retired educators or people who live on your street. We place a community table in the middle and ask everyone to change seats every 30 minutes. It gives people an opportunity to have that first, pleasant conversation in a controlled environment, rather than meeting when a dog bites a kid or a tree falls on a lawn. We hope to turn this into a model of best practices for other communities.

38:34 Edwin Rutsch: I love hearing about the social capital idea. With social polarization, people are looking for new models, and what you're offering is a way forward.

38:48 John Crowley: It's working.

38:59 Edwin Rutsch: Great. Thanks for taking the time to share this. We shall post it.