1 STATE OF MISSOURI
2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF RIPLEY COUNTY
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4
5
6 _________________________________________
7
8 THIS DOCUMENT RELATES TO:
9
10 STATE OF MISSOURI,
11 Plaintiff,
12 Vs. Case No. 13RI-CR00907-01
13 CHARLES HAYNES,
14 Defendant.
___________________________________________
15
16
17 THE DEPOSITION OF MELISSA S. HOGG
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19 February 9, 2017
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1 The deposition of MELISSA S. HOGG, taken
2 pursuant to Notice on February 9, 2017, beginning at
3 approximately 1:26 p.m. at the Ripley County Courthouse,
4 Doniphan, Missouri.
5 The deposition is taken in accordance with the
6 terms and provisions of the Federal Rules of Civil
7 Procedure.
8 The signature of the witness is waived.
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1
2 APPEARANCES
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Representing the Plaintiff:
4
SCOTT SERGENT
5 Office of the Attorney General
Supreme Court Building
6 P.O. Box 899
Jefferson City, Missouri 65102
7 573-751-8868
Scott.sergent@ago.mo.gov
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Representing the Defendant:
10
THEODORE E. LISZEWSKI
11 Attorney at Law
220 North Main Street
12 P.O. Box 814
Sikeston, Missouri 63801
13 573-475-9290
Liszewskilawfirm@gmail.com
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Reported By:
17 Jill Crowder Stewart
Certified Court Reporter #565
18 1215 Mallard Cove
Kennett, Missouri 63857
19 870-740-0799
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1 INDEX
PAGE NUMBER
2
MELISSA S. HOGG
3
Examination
4 By MR. LISZEWSKI............................ 5
5 Examination
By MR. SERGENT.............................. 69
6
7 EXHIBITS
8 (No exhibits were marked or retained by court reporter.)
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1 MELISSA S. HOGG,
2 Upon being duly sworn, testified:
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. LISZEWSKI:
5 Q. Would you state your name for the record,
6 please?
7 A. Melissa Sueann Hogg.
8 Q. Ms. Hogg, have you ever given a deposition or
9 gone through this process before?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Okay. Let me explain to you kind of what's
12 going on. My name is Ted Liszewski, I represent Chuck
13 Haynes. This is Scott Sergent with the attorney
14 general's office, and we have a court reporter, Ms.
15 Crowder Stewart now. So, anyway, this is my chance to
16 ask you questions about this criminal case. I'm not
17 asking you about the divorce. It's basically gonna be
18 my chance to ask you whatever questions I need to ask,
19 and I need you to do a favor and just answer for me so
20 we can get through this. Fair?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You're doing a good job answering the questions
23 audibly, I appreciate that. If you could continue to do
24 so, I would appreciate that. She's good but she cannot
25 take down the u-huh's (yes) and hu-huh's (no) and head
5
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1 nods, okay?
2 A. That's fine.
3 Q. If I ask you a question and you answer it, would
4 it be fair for me to assume that you understood the
5 question?
6 A. In most cases, probably.
7 Q. Okay. If there is something that you don't
8 understand that I've asked you, would you do me a favor
9 and let me know so I can rephrase that or ask a
10 different way and try to get to that same point?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Okay, if I ask you a question and you answer it,
13 would it be fair for me to assume that you answered the
14 question completely?
15 A. I don't think I can answer that with a yes or no
16 question, yes or no answer.
17 Q. Let me try and give you an example. And I'll
18 use the same example I used with your mom. If I were to
19 say how did you get to court today, then, my expectation
20 would be you would tell me what vehicle you got in to,
21 whether someone drove you, drove yourself, which roads
22 you took to get here, that would be my expectations for
23 a complete answer.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Okay. That's, that's what I'm looking for out
6
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1 of your answers today.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Is that unfair for me to expect?
4 A. That's fine.
5 Q. Okay. All right. So, we're gonna get right
6 to it. Chuck is your stepfather, until the divorce is
7 final, I understand that. When did your mom first get
8 together with him?
9 A. I was very young whenever they initially started
10 coming in contact with each other.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. But, I'm pretty sure it was around 2001, when
13 they were first, you know, getting to know each other.
14 Q. Okay. So you were born in '99?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. So, '01 would put you as a toddler?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Two or three years old?
19 A. So, don't have a very clear memory.
20 Q. Okay. All right. Now, from the ages that you
21 can remember, obviously, and you're probably not gonna
22 remember from the age of two, but how would you describe
23 the relationship that you had with Chuck?
24 A. Awful.
25 Q. Awful?
7
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1 A. Awful.
2 Q. Tell me about it.
3 A. He thought of me as sort of baggage, I guess,
4 from my mom. Didn't like me. We butted heads. It
5 was like, you know, a new person coming to the home as a
6 father figure that wasn't my father, and I wasn't his
7 child, that was very clear, that was made very clear the
8 whole entire time.
9 Q. Would it be fair to say he was a jerk to you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How did that make you feel?
12 A. Sad, upset.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Fatherless.
15 Q. Now, your father is Danny Long, right?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Danny is currently in a nursing home here in
18 Poplar Bluff or in Poplar, isn't he?
19 A. He --
20 Q. Okay. Where is he, if you don't mind me
21 asking?
22 A. He's living in Poplar Bluff.
23 Q. In Poplar Bluff. He's been diagnosed with
24 Alzheimer's?
25 A. No, I don't think so, but I'm not, not to my
8
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1 knowledge.
2 Q. Are you guys close?
3 A. We're getting there.
4 Q. Okay. So, your problems with Chuck and his
5 problems with you, did it impact, and, I realize you
6 weren't in the bedroom to hear them argue about
7 everything?
8 A. No, I heard quite a few arguments. The whole
9 house heard their argument and seen everything.
10 Q. That's what I'm trying to figure out, was this a
11 pretty volatile relationship?
12 A. Yeah, it was very unhealthy for any human, not
13 just myself.
14 Q. What do you mean by that? Can you give me some
15 examples?
16 A. It was a very manipulative relationship. Very
17 secluded, like he wanted to seclude all of us from any,
18 you know, outside contact with, didn't want us to have a
19 really close relationship with any of our family, or, he
20 always told me I didn't have any friends, so.
21 Q. Was he ever physically abusive to you or your
22 mom?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. At any point from the time that your mom
25 was together with him, did it ever get any better or
9
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1 just he pretty much treated you like crap the entire
2 time?
3 A. There would be, you know, periods of time where
4 everything would be better than normal. We would get
5 along more. But, that would only last for short times,
6 like short intervals, probably two weeks.
7 Q. Okay. Obviously hearing things like that can
8 be damaging to a person. I would assume that you didn't
9 want, you wanted to limit your time with him as much as
10 possible?
11 A. Not necessarily. I just wished the time that
12 we had together would have been different. Like, I
13 didn't want to -- how he acted, yes, that made me not
14 want to be around him.
15 Q. Okay. Did you avoid him, or, you know, just
16 tell your mom, hey, I don't want to do things with your
17 mom, he's a jerk to me, he's an ass?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was your mom's response to that?
20 A. There's, there's been multiple responses.
21 Q. Okay. Can you take me through a couple of 'em?
22 A. I know, I think he's gonna change, honey.
23 Things will get better. He's changing. He's gonna
24 stop drinking. I love him, he loves us. Stuff like
25 that.
10
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1 Q. Okay. Alcohol was a major problem?
2 A. In the beginning, yes, very violent drunk.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Was very violent when he was drunk, but he ended
5 up quitting.
6 Q. Okay. Your mom would leave him and then come
7 back?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. She felt kind of helpless. He made her feel
11 that he she was all that he had, or that he was all that
12 she had.
13 Q. And, I mean, I can kind of tell just by your
14 body language and the way you're talking about this, you
15 know, you don't like the guy?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Okay. And, you, I'm guessing, you haven't liked
18 Chuck Haynes for a long time?
19 A. The way he treated me and my family gives me
20 every right to feel the way that you just said that I
21 feel.
22 Q. Okay. And I'm not saying that I disagree with
23 that, so, I didn't grow up in your house.
24 A. Right.
25 Q. So I cannot tell you what's right or wrong.
11
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1 A. Right.
2 Q. But with or without the allegations of sexual
3 abuse that were in this case, there is a lot of
4 resentment?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Okay. All right. I'm gonna jump around a
7 little bit, but, after Chuck was arrested for all of
8 this and he was released from jail, your mom continued
9 to have contact with him, are you aware of that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. What was your reaction to that?
12 A. To having contact with him or my mom having
13 contact with him?
14 Q. Your mom having contact with him?
15 A. Not surprising.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Because of the patterns of events and how she
18 acted previously.
19 Q. Okay. She actually, do you remember the text
20 messages she sent you when she was getting arrested?
21 A. You might need to refresh my memory.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. How were these obtained?
24 Q. We're gonna get to that in a little bit, but
25 your phone's, your phone was forensically examined by
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1 the Highway Patrol.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. And there was a lot of stuff found on your
4 phone.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Okay. You had a chance to review those
7 messages?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. All right. Your mom effectively blamed you for
10 her and Chuck getting arrested?
11 A. Where is this information coming from?
12 Q. I'm reading the messages.
13 A. Where does it say that she blamed me?
14 Q. "Melissa, I'm being arrested today because of
15 what you had told everyone".
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Would it be fair to say that she's blaming you
18 for getting arrested?
19 A. I don't agree with that.
20 Q. "You thought you were hurting Chuck, but you
21 were instead, instead you were getting me arrested."
22 That's not blaming you?
23 A. That's not really placing the blame, it's
24 stating a fact.
25 Q. Now, one of the things I'm curious about from
13
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1 reading this, is the part where it says I might not like
2 or agree with everything you do, but that does not mean
3 I don't love you. Which makes me wonder which kind of
4 problems were you and your mom having prior to her
5 getting arrested?
6 A. Chuck told me many things that made me have a
7 lot of resentment towards my mother.
8 Q. Such as?
9 A. Such as that she was crazy. That she's
10 psychopath. That she's thick, as in her skull. Just
11 very insultive and negative things towards her. Mom
12 decided to take me out of public school, and.
13 Q. Are you home schooled too like Mikaela and Sara
14 were?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Cause I noticed --
17 A. Whenever they were removed previously? No, I
18 was not being home schooled.
19 Q. Right.
20 A. But I had been home schooled.
21 Q. And, in fact, you were worried about your mom
22 removing you from school once you gave her that letter
23 saying that you had been abused?
24 A. Did I say in the letter?
25 Q. Yes, you did.
14
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1 A. Okay, I might need to read that again, because I
2 haven't seen that for awhile.
3 Q. Okay, but --
4 A. But, yes, I was concerned with how she would
5 react and how everyone's reacting, because it's not
6 something that I've been through before, or.
7 Q. Now, additionally, were you and Chuck having
8 some problems relating to the issue of sexuality?
9 MR. SERGENT: Objection, relevance.
10 Q. I understand.
11 A. Were we having --
12 Q. Chuck thought you were a lesbian?
13 A. Chuck didn't think that, I told him that. I
14 told him.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. I told him that I had feelings for a girl and I
17 asked him what he thought I should do about it, because
18 I confided in him, I trusted him. We had built a
19 trusting relationship and he made me feel like he was
20 the only person I had to talk to and confide in and
21 trust. So, I naturally asked him about it, and he said
22 that was hot, and, he asked what I wanted to do with
23 him, and I was like nothing, I was like, this is just
24 how I feel about her, and, he, he's like well why her,
25 she's ugly, and I'm like well, it's not necessarily
15
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1 about looks, so, that's, how that kind of played out.
2 Q. Chuck would also make, my understanding is from
3 my understanding of the case and talking to other
4 witnesses, Chuck would make hateful and demeaning
5 comments about people that were gay or lesbians?
6 A. Oh, yes, very often.
7 Q. And I'm not trying, I'm not saying I can
8 understand where you're coming from, I'm not pretending
9 for a second I do, but obviously whatever feelings or
10 inclinations you had toward whatever sex, having someone
11 in the house making derogatory comments about someone in
12 the house?
13 A. It didn't really affect me, because I had grown
14 up thinking the same way about people who felt affection
15 towards the same sex, that's just how I basically grew
16 up talking to them too. I was basically his shadow. I
17 did everything that he did. Not necessarily everything,
18 but we went places together, fixed, worked with him.
19 You know, just adapted to his behavior. When you live
20 with someone, you tend to pick up on their behavior.
21 Q. I guess what I'm trying to wrap my head around,
22 and, why a person that, and, maybe hates the right word,
23 but strongly dislike, you would spend time with?
24 A. Well, whenever you're eight years old, you don't
25 have much say, it's not really up to.
16
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1 Q. Sure, but at some point, you turned 10, 11, 12,
2 13?
3 A. Right, which is whenever we were constantly
4 working together.
5 Q. U-huh (yes). But, and, you had mentioned that
6 there would be a couple week spans where things would
7 get better, but then it would go right back to where it
8 was, being awful, right?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. So what I'm trying to wrap my head around, and
11 if you help me with that, I appreciate it, why you would
12 let yourself be around somebody that would essentially
13 treat you like garbage?
14 A. As you said, you have not lived in my house, so,
15 you do not know how things were. But I will try to
16 explain it to you.
17 Q. I appreciate that.
18 A. Can you repeat the question?
19 Q. Sure. Sure, I'll rephrase it. What I'm
20 trying to wrap my head around is, how someone like you,
21 who's pretty sharp, I can tell that just by talking to
22 you you're pretty sharp, you would spend time with
23 someone who essentially treated you like shit?
24 A. As I said, I didn't have much of an option, or,
25 many other ways to not be around him. That's kind of
17
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1 why I want to go back to school.
2 Q. Okay. Would your mom just not listen to you at
3 all?
4 A. My mom was busy working, pretty steadily.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. And maintaining employees, and everything else
7 that business entails.
8 Q. Did you and your mom have a decent relationship
9 whenever you became a teenager?
10 A. Prior to me becoming a teenager, me and my mom
11 were always close, we were always very close. Whenever
12 me and my mom started to drift apart would have been
13 after they had the last incident, to where he had broken
14 her nose and the bones on her face, which is whenever we
15 went and stayed with my grandparents up in Moberly, and
16 I thought this was the last time we were gonna have to
17 be around him. I was like good, she's finished with
18 him, she's finally learned her lesson and hopefully she
19 doesn't have to have any other bones broken before she
20 has to realize he's not a decent person to be married
21 to. And two weeks later, after that happened, Chuck came
22 up there, mom had Chuck come up there, and they were
23 spending time together, and then we ended upcoming back
24 down here in this house, Rural Route 3, Box 7833
25 address, and mom started talking to people over the
18
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1 Internet and her father about religion and different
2 aspects, and they studied that quite a bit. So she
3 spent a lot of her time doing that, and it made her want
4 to, change the way her diet, change our diet, and I
5 didn't like that. I didn't want to change my diet. But
6 a lot of it was because Chuck criticized so much, he
7 didn't agree with the things she was wanting to change,
8 or how she was wanting to, you know, raise children.
9 So then she took me out of school, and then I was
10 basically just forced to be around Chuck constantly
11 because she was always working and she was always
12 working out somewhere else or doing something, and, mom
13 would try to discipline the kids or something, and Chuck
14 would usually be the one, like the scapegoat to get out
15 of it like, oh, it's okay, it's okay, or, he, he would
16 just get us out of whatever, and he would use, you know,
17 things that he knew that we wanted to do as leverage.
18 Q. Like what?
19 A. Like school. He knew that I wanted to go back
20 to school, so, whenever, I don't know if we're to this
21 point yet, I don't know if we're ready to talk about
22 this point.
23 Q. No, we can go wherever you want.
24 A. If he wanted me to give him, like, do him, it's
25 called a favor.
19
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1 Q. Are you talking about fellatio, or a blow job?
2 A. Anything sexual, that's what I'm referring to
3 when I say favor.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. He would say things like don't you want to go to
6 school, or do you want to school, do you want to go to
7 school, or if you do this, I'll try to get mom to let
8 you go to school, and I'm like well, I should be able to
9 go to school without having to do this, but, so that's
10 kind of just, I kind of lost trust for mom because, I
11 just felt like she couldn't see what was going on. She
12 didn't know. So, she didn't really --
13 Q. Now, your mom claims that she was molested by
14 your dad, did you know that?
15 A. That's what she's told me, yes.
16 Q. And she claims that your sister, Mindy, was
17 molested by your dad?
18 A. I've heard that as well, but I don't know.
19 Q. Has Mindy ever told you that?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. Mindy says she doesn't remember.
23 Q. Okay. Was your mom extra sensitive to good
24 touch, bad touch, make sure no one touches you in an
25 area they shouldn't, don't let people do things to you
20
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1 that they are not allowed to do?
2 A. Are you meaning like if a parent tells their
3 child if someone touches you here, tell me?
4 Q. U-huh (yes).
5 A. Not necessarily, sort of, but she never referred
6 to that. Like.
7 Q. Do you know what the word vigilant means?
8 A. You can give me your definition.
9 Q. Vigilant is whenever someone is really steadfast
10 in doing something.
11 A. Impulsive you mean?
12 Q. Compulsive. They do it, regardless of time or
13 circumstances, something they feel like they need to do,
14 whether it's for their safety or for their own choice.
15 So, for instance, you could be vigilant about protecting
16 your child, that means?
17 A. You mean, like doesn't think things through?
18 Q. No. Vigilant in protecting your child means
19 that you go out of your way to protect your child?
20 A. Okay, yeah, now I know what you're saying.
21 Q. I probably just have used a different word. I
22 apologize. But, was your mom vigilant about that?
23 A. Oh, yes, she was already protective of us,
24 watching, you know, to make sure that we were fine.
25 Q. Do you think she would have been, let's say,
21
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1 because I believe you are claiming these allegations
2 started when you were how old?
3 A. 2011, so I would have been twelve.
4 Q. You would have been twelve. Okay. 2011, if
5 you think you would have told your mom that, do you
6 think she would have done something?
7 A. For sure.
8 Q. What do you think your mom would have done?
9 A. Well, I don't really know. Well, actually, I
10 had a good idea of what she would do and that's what I
11 was scared of. Because, whenever Mindy turned 13, Chuck
12 had tried to kiss her, and, he, she wrote mom a note,
13 she wrote her a note telling her that Chuck had tried to
14 kiss her, and, mom got the note, and she read it, and,
15 then she went up to Chuck, put it in his face, and said
16 what is this, what is my daughter talking about right
17 now, and he was like, I don't know, I was drunk. So, I
18 don't know what happened, and, then, that was really,
19 they had a major fight over about it.
20 Q. Okay. Was this ever reported the police? Do
21 you know? You may not.
22 A. I don't think so.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. So I was worried that if I told her that they
25 were gonna have another horrible, awful fight.
22
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1 Q. Okay. Well, and let me ask you this. In the
2 grand scheme of things everything you're saying is true
3 and he's molesting you, I mean, which is worse, a fight
4 or you getting molested?
5 A. Well, this they both pretty bad, so, it's the
6 worser of the two.
7 Q. Okay. Well, how bad would these fights get?
8 A. Well, one of them got to the point where he had
9 broken three bones in her face, so, pretty bad.
10 Screaming, yelling.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Nothing that children should hear or witness,
13 or, they should even act towards, and towards each
14 other, each other.
15 Q. Do you think she would have left him?
16 A. If --
17 Q. If you said mom Chuck is touching me, Chuck is
18 making me do favors?
19 A. She would have left him, yeah. But I don't
20 know if that means she would have ever came back,
21 because, like I said, my mom feels helpless, she felt
22 helpless around him, that's how he made her feel.
23 Q. Did you trust your mom enough to tell her
24 something like that?
25 A. I trusted her, yes. Trust was not the issue,
23
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1 really, it was more fear of consequences of what would
2 happen afterwards.
3 Q. What consequences do you fear if you're telling
4 the truth?
5 A. Not any consequences, it was how Chuck would be,
6 how their relationship would be because I was always
7 getting told not to tell anybody because it would ruin
8 the family, break up the family, tear the family apart.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. And I was, I was always called the problem
11 child. Chuck would always call me the problem child out
12 of all the kids.
13 Q. And it's evident you guys, at least from your
14 advantage point, you didn't like him, I get that?
15 A. It's not that I didn't like him, I just didn't
16 like how he treated me.
17 Q. Okay. How close are you with Mindy?
18 A. Me and Mindy are not very close, anymore.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Cause she lives in Florida, we're both busy, we
21 don't talk a whole lot.
22 Q. How about whenever, cause, I believe the order
23 of disclosure in this case was, was in it you told a
24 friend at school, and then you told your sister, and
25 then you left a note for your mom?
24
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1 A. I told my best friend, like whenever, not
2 shortly after it started happening, I told her about it,
3 but I had asked her not to say anything, and.
4 Q. So shortly after it started happening?
5 A. Yes, shortly after it started happening, I told
6 my best friend.
7 Q. Who was your best friend?
8 A. Haley Beale.
9 Q. And this started happening in 2011 according to
10 you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So sometime in say 2011 or 2012 you told her
13 this?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Where did you tell her this at?
16 A. If I can remember right, we were on the gravel
17 bar taking a four-wheeler ride and I told her about it.
18 Q. Okay. Take me through that conversation?
19 A. It's been awhile ago, but the gist of it would
20 have been me telling where, you know, if that's been
21 going on, or, just, I never gave Haley full detail. I
22 never told her really, I just told her that
23 inappropriate stuff was happening.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. And that he'd kissed me. But she didn't know a
25
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1 whole lot of anything.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. She just --
4 Q. And your friend didn't tell anyone?
5 A. She wanted me, she tried to get me to tell and I
6 was, I was like, you know, I'm scared about what's gonna
7 happen after that.
8 Q. So your friend Haley held this secret for over a
9 year?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. Okay. And you told her in person?
12 A. U-huh (yes).
13 Q. Do you have any, did you write any notes or?
14 A. We text about it, a few times, probably, maybe.
15 Yeah, we text about it a couple times because I sent her
16 the picture that, of Chuck's hand in my shirt. She's
17 who I sent it to.
18 Q. Okay. All right. So, take me to where,
19 before we get there, so you talked to your friend, then
20 you talked to your sister?
21 A. Um, the reason I actually, well, who pushed the
22 person who pushed me towards actually telling would have
23 been Madison Turner.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Not Haley. Haley wanted me to, but she was
26
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1 gonna be my best friend and keep the secret that I had
2 told her, because I didn't want to tell anybody.
3 Didn't want anybody to know that.
4 Q. Okay. So, how did Madison push you towards
5 that?
6 A. I told her that, Saturday night, it was a
7 Saturday night, and we had text her about it, well,
8 actually, we were texting about it, and, or I told her I
9 needed to tell her something and we were gonna talk
10 about it. We didn't talk about it through texts, so,
11 she, arranged, she came and she parked at the gate of
12 Chuck's house and I had snuck out to see her. I didn't
13 tell anybody that I was going to go talk to her about it
14 and I went up there, I got in her car and I was talking
15 about it and I was telling her what was going on, a
16 little bit of what was going on, but then mom drove up
17 and was on the other side of the gate and so I got out
18 of her car and Madison left. I was just, it was in the
19 moment, and it was, I snuck out and I was that scared, I
20 was 13, the first time that I really snuck out or done
21 anything that my mom didn't know about it, not that my
22 mom didn't know about it. But, do you know what I'm
23 trying to say?
24 Q. Somewhat.
25 Let me ask you this, are you scared of Chuck?
27
.
1 A. Now? Yes.
2 Q. Well, --
3 A. I was scared of him my entire life.
4 Q. One of the things I'm curious about and I'll ask
5 you about and then we'll double back. You story Dr.
6 Duncan, do you know who he is?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. He is a next-door neighbor of Chuck's?
9 A. Yes, a close friend of Chuck's.
10 Q. Do you know he has seen you on his property?
11 A. He has?
12 Q. Recently.
13 A. He has seen what he has seen people matching my
14 description on Chuck's and mom's property. I have seen
15 that at a point, yes. But, Duncan is older, and,
16 pretty sure he has poor eye sight, but.
17 Q. Well, they do make glasses for that, you're
18 wearing them now.
19 A. You're right.
20 Q. He's probably gonna testify that you were there,
21 so, my question is, were you?
22 A. Was I there?
23 Q. Have you been running on the property?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. Not Mikaela?
28
.
1 A. Not that I'm aware of.
2 Q. Well --
3 A. Mikaela's not in my supervision right now, or,
4 not all the time whenever I was living there and she
5 wasn't the same, either.
6 Q. Okay. So, it's your testimony that while this
7 case has been pending, you haven't come on the property,
8 at all, Chuck's property?
9 A. I've been on property while this case has been
10 pending, yes.
11 Q. What did you get on his property for?
12 A. Why?
13 Q. I'm trying to figure out why someone who is
14 scared of a guy that sexually molested him would go on
15 his property?
16 A. Well, it was technically my property as well,
17 because I lived there for quite a substantial amount of
18 time and it was also my mother's property as well, or
19 was.
20 MR. SERGENT: Can we clarify what property.
21 A. Yeah, which?
22 Q. The residence that he lives at now. Basically,
23 they live on a county road, and there's, they own,
24 there's two lots in that area, then there's a third lot
25 where Chuck's mom lives at, am I describing it
29
.
1 correctly?
2 A. Well, they, the report that Duncan, or who had
3 made the record, was it Chuck or Duncan?
4 Q. Dr. Duncan.
5 A. Okay, oh, I thought it was Chuck advised, he
6 actually made the report.
7 Q. Dr. Duncan is going to testify in court that he
8 saw you running the property.
9 A. But, who made the report, Duncan or Chuck?
10 Q. I don't know.
11 A. It was Chuck, I'm sure, so I'm curious as to why
12 Duncan didn't make the report instead of Chuck.
13 Q. Well, ma'am, he can testify in court, and if a
14 jury wanted to disbelieve Duncan, that's entirely up to
15 them?
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. So let's go back to the original property.
18 You're scared of this guy, what are you doing running
19 the property?
20 A. I wasn't running.
21 Q. What are you doing on the property?
22 A. Well, I don't really have a specific answer for
23 you. Other than, the time that the report that was
24 made by Dr. Duncan, I was not there, and, the green
25 four-wheeler whenever that report was made, the green
30
.
1 four-wheeler doesn't even work.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. It's not drivable.
4 Q. Are you aware that your sisters indicated that
5 you've been on the property and taken things from the
6 property?
7 A. I'm not aware of that, no.
8 Q. Okay. Have you been?
9 A. Have I taken things from the property? No.
10 Q. No amplifiers, anything like that?
11 A. Amplifiers? My mom got the amplifier, yes.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Not from Chuck's house, from, it's called
14 Gertrude's property. Gertrude's house is what we called
15 it, so that would have been joined between both of them.
16 And there's nothing restricting me from going to the
17 property that Duncan accused me from being at, either.
18 Q. No, there's not, but I think you'd agree with me
19 it's a little strange for someone who's afraid of a guy
20 that molested her for years --
21 A. Well, I wouldn't go there if Chuck was there.
22 That would be strange in my opinion as well.
23 Q. How would you know if he was, or was not?
24 A. Well, he drives a vehicle.
25 Q. U-huh (yes).
31
.
1 A. So if the vehicle is not in the driveway, or if
2 I had seen him somewhere else, we live in the same town.
3 Q. So, it's, and I realize right now that property
4 is subject to a divorce?
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. And, your mom and he are fighting over it in the
7 divorce, I understand that, I represent him in the
8 divorce, I'm well aware of it.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. What I'm trying to wrap my head around, is why a
11 teenager is putting herself in harm's way of this guy
12 that she claims is a sex offender?
13 A. Again, I don't know when I put myself in harm's
14 way, or where.
15 Q. I mean, if your --
16 A. I haven't been in his house since we were living
17 there with him, the last time. He was arrested the
18 second time.
19 Q. According to you, most of these actions occurred
20 outside the house?
21 A. When did I say that?
22 Q. We're getting there.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Okay. Now, coming back to your sister, you --
25 A. Which sister are you referring to? I have
32
.
1 multiple.
2 Q. You have three sisters I'm aware of that. My
3 apologies. Your sister Mindy in Florida?
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. The one you had the instant message exchanged
6 with, where you said Chuck has been doing stuff --
7 A. Do you have those as well?
8 Q. Yes, I do.
9 A. Can I see them?
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Are all of these messages?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Wow. It's been a minute since I've seen these.
14 This is fine that I'm reading this right now?
15 Q. Absolutely.
16 (Break.)
17 Q. You've had a chance to look through 'em. I
18 realize this case is several years old?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right.
21 A. Your question again?
22 Q. My question was, you had spoken to your best
23 friend about it, according to you, she held your secret
24 for a year? Is that a yes?
25 A. Yes, sorry.
33
.
1 Q. Then you spoke to your other friend?
2 A. Madison.
3 Q. Madison. Madison encouraged you to seek
4 someone else out?
5 A. She told me that if I didn't tell, that she was
6 going to.
7 Q. So who decided to tell?
8 A. I decided to text Mindy about it.
9 Q. You were pretty close to Mindy?
10 A. Not necessarily.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Our relationship was ruined by Chuck as well.
13 He kind of made me and Mindy bicker, like, have, have
14 resentment that wasn't meant toward each other, but we
15 still loved each other and trusted each other, and we
16 knew that if we needed something we could go to each
17 other.
18 Q. Okay. One of the questions I had is, your
19 sister on this page said, "If it's true you have nothing
20 to worry about." You responded, "And I don't want to
21 ruin another Christmas, capital all caps, OMG,
22 explanation point. I just don't know." And your sister
23 responded, "You promise me a hundred thousand percent
24 that it's true and I can help you and you'll all be
25 safe."
34
.
1 Okay, did I misread anything on that page?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. Does that strike you as odd that your
4 sister would want to know if something like that, her
5 reaction is is that a hundred thousand percent true?
6 A. Strike me as odd?
7 Q. Sure.
8 A. No.
9 Q. No. Let me ask you this. If Mikaela were to
10 come to you and say, Melissa, my school teacher touched
11 me, would your initial reaction would be to ask if she
12 was lying?
13 A. She didn't ask me if I was lying.
14 Q. Would your initial reaction would be to say is
15 it a hundred thousand percent true?
16 A. My initial reaction would be where.
17 Q. That's what I'm getting at. That's what I'm
18 getting at. Your reaction would be her, when, how,
19 why, you'd want the details, fair?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. So, would your reaction be to your sister, are
22 you telling the truth?
23 A. Would I ask her that? Yeah.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Before we made accusations that are what they
35
.
1 are, and, press charges.
2 Q. Would you ask her multiple times?
3 A. If --
4 Q. If she was telling the truth?
5 A. Probably not.
6 Q. Okay. Now --
7 A. Why are you asking me that question? Where's
8 that coming from?
9 Q. Well, as I explained to you earlier, this is my
10 opportunity to ask you questions about the case that I
11 feel are relevant.
12 A. But how is that relevant to this conversation is
13 what I'm curious about. Because my sister never asked
14 me if I was lying.
15 Q. Okay, ma'am, to be perfectly honest with you, I
16 don't owe you an explanation.
17 A. Okay, that's fair.
18 Q. Okay. So you told your sister then what?
19 A. Then I wrote a note to my mother.
20 Q. Okay. Now, a note to your mother, you had, do
21 you remember that note at all?
22 A. Somewhat.
23 Q. Okay. Where did you go once you wrote that
24 note to your mother, did you go to school that day?
25 A. No, I wrote it a Saturday night, so after I
36
.
1 wrote the note, I would have went to Gatewood with Chuck
2 the next morning.
3 Q. So you wrote the note Saturday night, Chuck woke
4 you up, or, did you wake Chuck up Sunday morning?
5 A. No, Chuck came in my room and woke me up.
6 Q. Came to your room and woke you up?
7 A. U-huh (yes).
8 Q. All right, and this was the room where you were
9 going to find out the guy who had been molesting you?
10 A. Whenever he came in to our room.
11 Q. Whenever you left the note, you had told your
12 sister, you told your friend, I mean, this is where you
13 were gonna get this off your chest?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. But yet the next day you went to Gatewood?
16 A. Didn't have much of an option. I couldn't
17 refuse to go with him.
18 Q. There's always the option of telling your
19 mother.
20 A. Well, I wasn't going to tell her right then
21 while she was around Chuck. That's kind of the purpose
22 of the note.
23 Q. Obviously you had a phone?
24 A. Correct, now I do.
25 Q. Did you have a phone then?
37
.
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were there phones in the house?
3 A. There was a home phone, a LAN line, yes.
4 Q. Okay. Now, and I'm not being sarcastic with
5 you, but, I mean, obviously this qualifies as a big
6 deal, what you're saying is true, it's a big deal,
7 right?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Okay. All right. So, who better to call than
10 the police?
11 A. Well, whenever Chuck gets a ticket for not
12 having his child in a car seat and he just takes it to
13 the sheriff and the sheriff rips it up in front of him,
14 the police is not really the option that I wanted to go
15 to.
16 Q. Would you equate a ticket to a child restraint
17 the same thing as sexual molestation?
18 A. No, by far that's very different.
19 Q. So it's kind of apples and oranges?
20 A. Apples and oranges? Yeah, it's contrasting.
21 Q. Big difference?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. What did you guys do at Gatewood that day?
24 A. Well, what I did is we, I got ready, I was,
25 Mindy wanted me to say that I would pretend that I was
38
.
1 sick, so I didn't have to go with him, because he would
2 just call me lazy and tell me to get out of bed. So I
3 got dressed, he went outside and we got in the truck and
4 drove up to his mother's house. And then I was sitting
5 in his truck while he got out and he got on his tractor,
6 loaded up a bale of hay, I was watching him. Puts it on
7 the trailer, and while he was loading up the hay, I used
8 his cell phone. And, I'm, I'm not sure who I called
9 first, I probably called my mom first, and I called her
10 and I told her that there was a note that I wanted her
11 to find. That there was a note that I wrote to her and
12 I put it in my coverall's pocket in my closet, and she
13 was like, okay I'll go find it.
14 Q. You didn't have the cell phone at that point in
15 time?
16 A. No.
17 Q. How would you know you would have the ability to
18 call your mom if you didn't have a phone?
19 A. Because Chuck had a phone.
20 Q. How were you so certain that Chuck would let you
21 use that phone?
22 A. I wasn't gonna ask permission. I wasn't like,
23 hey, can I use your phone to call my mom and tell her
24 you've been molesting me. No, I didn't do that.
25 Q. Well, my understanding is based on what you said
39
.
1 previously to the police, is that Chuck would take
2 phones, hide phones, things like that?
3 A. He would ask me to set my phones different
4 places, but he was always paranoid, always looking,
5 because anytime he would do anything to me, I would just
6 sit on my phone and play with my phone and he would look
7 at my phone to see if I was recording him, because my
8 mom always recorded.
9 Q. So he was so paranoid about your phone and other
10 phone, but yet this day he just managed --
11 A. Well, his phone is not capable of recording. I
12 had an I-phone, he had a basic, dial the number, get
13 ahold of the person.
14 Q. Those phones, they may not be able to video
15 record, but they can audio record.
16 A. Okay, well, I wasn't sure how to do that, I
17 didn't.
18 Q. So my understanding is you called your mom with
19 Chuck's phone to say I have left you a hidden note that
20 I intended for you to find?
21 A. Well, I left her a note that I wanted her to
22 find, that I told her where it was so she would find it,
23 yes.
24 Q. Now, is your mom typically in your coveralls?
25 A. No, that's why I called her, so I could tell her
40
.
1 where it was.
2 Q. But assuming it wasn't, or you couldn't call
3 her, she wouldn't find that note?
4 A. Well, I knew I was going to call her.
5 Q. Okay. It seems like an awful lot of trouble
6 just not to say, hey, mom, this is what's going on, I'm
7 sorry?
8 A. Yeah, it was a lot of trouble, it was a lot of
9 trouble.
10 Q. Where did the majority of these acts allegedly
11 occur?
12 A. They weren't in a specific, they weren't in just
13 certain places, they were all over the place.
14 Q. Okay. Like Gatewood is one of them that you
15 talked about during the preliminary hearing?
16 A. A few things happened out there, but not.
17 Q. Was there one place more than others?
18 A. Chuck's basement, quite a bit of things happened
19 there.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Chuck's house I guess you could say.
22 Q. Did anything, now, is Chuck's house, are you
23 talking about where he's at now that's different than
24 when you all were living --
25 A. If he's living at RR 1 Box 2312, yes.
41
.
1 Q. Now --
2 A. RR 3, Box 7833 is my mom.
3 Q. Whenever they were together, were they living in
4 the 7833 house?
5 A. We had lived in both houses.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. At different times.
8 Q. How did it initially start?
9 A. Initially started, probably when I was two years
10 old, that's when the grooming process, now that I am
11 aware of how other people are molested, and how it's
12 like a process, I mean, it's steps. Probably.
13 Q. How did you think you were groomed at two years
14 old?
15 A. The way he treated me, made me feel probably
16 alone, and, how, how he treated me awfully, up until I
17 started, like hitting puberty, and, then he started, you
18 know, acting more as a father figure, so I thought, but,
19 he had other intentions than what I was aware of.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. So, it initially started whenever we moved back
22 in to the house, back into the 7833 address, after they
23 had had that fight where I told you he broke her nose,
24 and, started with a hug, that's the first physical
25 contact that was made that way, in a sexual manner.
42
.
1 Q. What about that hug made you think it was a
2 sexual manner?
3 A. It was longer. He was, kind of rubbing my back
4 and like pushing me up against him, like holding me
5 closer to him, than he ever had given me a hug before.
6 Any other time he had given me a hug was around the neck
7 and get off of me. I'm having to pretend that I'm
8 proud of you, that's the type hug.
9 Q. Okay. And then it proceeded from there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. How did it progress?
12 A. There was a few hugs like that and I didn't
13 really know how to think about the hugs, I didn't know
14 what to think. I felt like they were definitely
15 different, but I didn't know that they were sexual.
16 And, then, one day after I had been cleaning up after
17 lunch, mom had went back downstairs and was working in
18 the office and I was staying upstairs and cleaning, and,
19 Chuck had went downstairs too and I was almost finished
20 and he came back upstairs and I was getting ready to
21 walk in my room, and, I came out, I went in my room and
22 I came out of my room and Chuck was like coming this way
23 and I walked out, and he like, we might have hugged, I
24 don't know, might have hugged me and then he kissed me,
25 and.
43
.
1 Q. On the forehead?
2 A. On the face. On the mouth, sorry.
3 Q. On the mouth?
4 A. And I freaked out, I was like, I ran away, ran
5 downstairs, ran in to the pool room, just ran away from
6 him, and then about 30 minutes later, he comes in to the
7 pool room, which is where we were doing lessons, or home
8 school or whatever, and he was like, I don't know what I
9 was thinking, that will never happen again, don't tell
10 your mother. And I was like, okay, it better not, it
11 scared me, I don't know what I was thinking, I was like
12 okay.
13 Q. Did it anger you?
14 A. No, just scared me.
15 Q. All right. But, so, now, I doubt, well, maybe
16 you can, can you say with definity what day it may have
17 started, or around what day?
18 A. I don't have a day. I don't have exact dates
19 very many of them, unless there something significant
20 that I remember that day for other reasons.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. But I don't know exactly what day. I'm thinking
23 it would be September.
24 Q. How did it progress?
25 A. What was next?
44
.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. He probably had kissed me a couple times after
3 that, and, then, we were running the tractor one day,
4 and, I was sitting on his left side, and he had his left
5 hand like groping my thigh, rubbing my thigh,
6 inappropriately, it was like, I mean, I knew there was
7 something fishy about it, like it wasn't just an
8 affectionate touch, just, like.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. And, then, he would compliment me. He started
11 complimenting me and saying, like, that I was sexy, or,
12 I was hot, or pretty and I'm like, okay. And, then,
13 he, wanted me to wear short shorts. He liked short
14 shorts, but I bought them, but he told me that he wanted
15 me to wear them, and he always told me that I had nice
16 legs. That's something that he always said.
17 Q. Where was your mom in all of this?
18 A. Working. Or, taking care of the kids.
19 Q. I mean, were you trying to give off vibes that,
20 hey, mom, something's not right here? I mean, were you
21 kind of trying to drop hints for your mom?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were you trying to drop hints for anybody?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay, keep going. I'm sorry I interrupted you.
45
.
1 A. Um, okay, before the tractor thing happened,
2 this is a date that I have that's specific, I don't know
3 what the actual date is, but it was the first, the first
4 day of deer season of 2011.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. I was laying in my bedroom, it was like 4 in the
7 morning, it was exactly 4 in the morning, because my
8 alarm had just gone off, and I was getting ready to go
9 deer hunting with him the next morning and he came in my
10 room, and I was still asleep, I was, I just turned my
11 alarm off and went back to sleep, because I figured he
12 would come in and wake me up whenever he was ready to
13 go, so he comes in there and he sits on my bed and I'm
14 just laying there sleeping and then I feel him put his
15 hand like up my shirt on in my breasts, and I pretended
16 to be asleep. I just pretended like I didn't know what
17 was going on and he started like groping it and feeling
18 it, and, I, pretended to wake up, like I shivered, and I
19 opened my eyes and he pulled his hand out of there and
20 he was like, are you ready to go and I was like no, I
21 don't feel good, I'm too sick to go. And he asked me a
22 couple more times and he was like, are you sure you
23 don't want to go, come on, and I was like I don't want
24 to go.
25 Q. Did he call you lazy for not going?
46
.
1 A. No, the insults, and negative words sort of shut
2 down quite a bit after they'd had their fight and Chuck
3 said, you know, I'm changed, I'm different, I'm gonna be
4 a dad to you guys.
5 Q. Did your mom ever walk in on you sleeping in a
6 bed with him, you two, or he was laying in bed with you?
7 A. Yes, I know one incident you're talking about.
8 Q. It turned into a fight?
9 A. Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
10 Q. I have a letter that you wrote where you told a
11 friend it turned in to a big fight?
12 A. Yeah, it did.
13 Q. What happened?
14 A. What happened was him and I and Mikaela were
15 laying in my bed, and, we were watching T.V. and he had
16 invited himself in there. It was just me and Mikaela
17 watching T.V. in there, I'm pretty sure we were watching
18 T.V.. I'm pretty sure that's what we were doing, and he
19 had came in there, it was kind of later at night, and,
20 we had this back massager, we'd had it for quite a long
21 time, mom would give him back rubs, and Chuck would give
22 mom back rubs, and, Chuck or mom would give one of the
23 kids.
24 Q. That's one of those curved things --
25 A. Yeah, just stuff like that, so it wasn't out of
47
.
1 the ordinary for one of them to give the other a back
2 massage, so I was, so he, so I was giving him a back
3 massage. He had asked me, which I did, because he has a
4 really bad back, and, so, mom had came in there, and,
5 she got, Mikaela, she's like, you know, it's time to go
6 to bed and she's like, are you ready to go to bed, and
7 Chuck's like, yeah, yeah, I'll be in there in a minute.
8 So she got Mikaela, went to her room, went to her
9 bedroom and I think Mikaela had a bed in there on the
10 floor. I'm not sure. That's where we were sleeping for
11 awhile after we had moved back in to the house. And,
12 Chuck stayed in my room, he stayed in my room for quite
13 a while, and ended up falling asleep, and mom came in
14 there and said, what's going on, why haven't you come in
15 there, I've been waiting on you for quite a while and
16 she was mad that he didn't come to bed.
17 Q. Did anything inappropriate happen?
18 A. I don't recall. I don't think so. Not anything
19 that really stood out in my memory.
20 Q. Now, November the 13th, this is the night this
21 question about, there are two charges in this case. I
22 know you probably haven't read what the actual charges
23 say. But there are two charges both for November the
24 13th, of 2013. Was there ever an instance where more
25 than one thing happened to you over the course of a day?
48
.
1 A. Like different times of the day and then like
2 something happened at twelve o'clock and then at six
3 o'clock?
4 Q. Yeah.
5 A. Like anything at all, like any type of contact?
6 Q. Well, charge is statute 1, statutory rape, or
7 statutory sodomy in the first degree, is like, Missouri
8 law defines that as say finger to genitals, mouth to
9 genitals, things like that, that's the contact that was,
10 with someone less than 14 years of age.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Child molestation is a similar touching, but
13 it's a similar touching. So what I'm trying to figure
14 out is, is there an instance about November, 2013, that
15 day, where something happened where there might have
16 been an exchange, or is it just if normally something
17 would happen, it was one act and one act only that day?
18 A. Like multiple things happen, like?
19 Q. Yeah, like multiple things during the course of
20 a day where it would be like your clothes would come
21 off, or his clothes would come off, anything like that?
22 A. I'm pretty sure he never took his clothes off.
23 He never took his clothes off.
24 Q. Okay, you know, for instance one of your
25 allegations were, he had messed with your vagina, like
49
.
1 he would finger you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So, was there ever a day where, let's say he
4 fingered you and then on a separate occasion that day
5 played with your breasts?
6 A. Yes, that happened often, there was never, I'm
7 not gonna say never, but, there were multiple times
8 where that happened during, in the same day, or during
9 the same instance and act.
10 Q. Can you recall anything before Thanksgiving
11 where that happened, multiple times over the same day?
12 A. Before Thanksgiving of 2012?
13 Q. Thanksgiving of 2013, or it would be '13 is when
14 the charge came out. So it would be 2013?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay, can you describe one of those instances,
17 or if there were more?
18 A. I'll describe one of them. This one really
19 stands out in my mind. It was in the summer time, it
20 would have been summer of 2013. Summer time, it was
21 warm outside, that's how I know. Mom was at the
22 office, working, Mikaela and Sara, I'm not sure where
23 they were. And, Chuck and I had went down to his house
24 to change the oil in the truck or something like that, I
25 don't know, we had some chores to do down there, and, we
50
.
1 had went to the house, and, I don't know how, it
2 initiated, I don't remember how like it got started, but
3 we ended up going in Sara's room, my little sisters
4 Sara's room, which is upstairs, and across from their
5 room. Like, you go upstairs on the left and there's
6 her room, there's a bathroom and there's mom and Chuck's
7 room. So we were in there, and, he had asked me to take
8 off all my clothes and I was like no, I don't want to do
9 that, I don't want to take off all my clothes. And I
10 had never been naked in front, completely naked in front
11 of anyone, probably, other than my mom, and he kept
12 begging and asking, oh, I'll buy you this I'll get you
13 in school. So I probably was, but just anything I want,
14 he would probably coerce me into saying that, and I was
15 like, no, that's not gonna make me want to do this, and
16 he just, didn't let up, so I was finally, I was like
17 fine, do whatever. I was like, but I'm not, he took my
18 clothes off, and, so, then, he told me to lay on the
19 bed, so I did, and then he kissed my mouth, and, then,
20 sucked on my boobs, to the point where they were very,
21 very sore. And, then like kissed down my body and then
22 he went down on me and fingered me, and, then he stood
23 up, and he put my hand on his penis and I gave him a
24 hand job. I didn't, I refused to give him a blow job
25 for the longest time, I told him I didn't want to,
51
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1 because I thought it was disgusting.
2 Q. Did he ever try to have full blown sex with you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did that conversation ever happen?
5 A. Yes. We talked, I was like, so are you
6 thinking that we're going to actually have sex. Oh, my
7 guess is -- actually, I forget, there was a time that we
8 went to Gatewood, or not Gatewood, it was at Cedar
9 Creek, it was a river property. I don't think it's
10 private property, but I don't know, and we had all went
11 out there camping, and we were in the woods, and, he was
12 asking me to touch his dick, and I'm like, no. I was
13 like, I don't want to have sex. I'm like, I'm too
14 young. I'm like I cannot have sex right now. And he's
15 like there's other ways to please people without having
16 actual intercourse, I'm like, no. So, we didn't end up
17 doing it that time, but that's whenever we talked about
18 that then. And then I asked him about it, I was like,
19 so, are you gonna try to do more, and he's like, no, I
20 don't want you to end up pregnant, and I'm like, okay.
21 He said, we'd have to come up with a boy that got you
22 pregnant in high school and I'm like okay, that wouldn't
23 work, but, okay.
24 Q. Had you ever told anyone that before?
25 A. (Nodding.)
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1 Q. That means no? You're shaking your head no?
2 A. No. Sorry, I was thinking.
3 Q. And, we're three years removed from whenever
4 this all allegedly stopped, correct?
5 A. I may have told somebody that, but nobody that,
6 with authority.
7 Q. No police officer?
8 A. Yeah, no police officer.
9 Q. Okay. All right. I'm just about finished
10 here.
11 One more thing I want to cover. Obviously
12 you're aware that you and your mom, or Chuck and your
13 mom have been having phone conversations and have been
14 talking, probably up until things probably got heated in
15 the child custody case, in the divorce, were you aware
16 of that?
17 A. To the extent --
18 Q. Do you remember the conversation that your mom
19 and Chuck had while you were there, over the phone?
20 A. You have to tell me more --
21 Q. Actually, you can take a look at it if you want.
22 We can go off the record for a second.
23 (Break.)
24 A. What is this?
25 Q. Let's --
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1 A. Yeah, I think I'm aware of.
2 Q. It was a recording that your mom turned over to
3 your --
4 A. Yeah, mom was aware that we were recording this,
5 I'm sure, right?
6 Q. Yes. I have to ask, what was the reaction?
7 A. That's me telling mom to get off the phone with
8 him. Okay, what is --
9 Q. Do you recall any other conversations that your
10 mom and Chuck had while you were present?
11 A. Some of them, yeah.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Did I talk to him? I talk to him during this,
14 don't I?
15 Q. Yes, you do. And actually the way I read it,
16 obviously I wasn't there to hear the conversation over
17 the phone, but it wasn't particularly a hate
18 conversation.
19 A. No, it wasn't hateful. It was emotional for me
20 too. It was rough.
21 Q. It was very congenial, but it was rough.
22 A. I felt like I was betraying him, that's how I
23 felt. I felt guilty for telling.
24 Q. How long would you estimate that you had
25 conversations with him after you made these allegations?
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1 A. Like how much did we talk after?
2 Q. Yeah.
3 A. Well, after this phone call we had seen him and
4 he drove up to Columbia to see us, and then after that
5 we drove to St. Louis, we stayed the night in separate
6 hotel rooms. He stayed the night with mom, me and
7 Mikaela slept in the other hotel room, or the other
8 room.
9 Q. We, and you had said that he had asked you not
10 in testify, I guess?
11 A. He didn't come out with the words don't testify
12 against me.
13 Q. What were the words?
14 A. They would have been somewhere along the lines
15 as, well, if you say this in court, then we cannot be a
16 family, or, we cannot be together. All of us won't be
17 able to be together. Basically, it was more of a guilt
18 trip.
19 Q. Okay. Did he ever tell you don't go to Court,
20 or don't cooperate in the process, anything like that?
21 A. No, he was smarter than that.
22 Q. Did he ever promise you anything, to say, oh,
23 I'll promise you this, if you don't testify and make the
24 case go away?
25 A. Did he promise or did he say that at all?
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1 Q. Well, your mother makes a reference to a Rav 4
2 that was Bernice's?
3 A. Yeah, I didn't talk to him.
4 Q. So no personal contact?
5 A. Yeah, we didn't come in personal contact other
6 than him trying to intimidate me and trying to follow
7 me.
8 Q. Did you ever go to the police and report that?
9 A. Yeah, there's a report.
10 Q. When was the most recent time, because I don't
11 have that on you?
12 A. You should have that.
13 MR. SERGENT: I don't know that we have received
14 a report on that. I have encouraged them to report any
15 kind of suspicious activity to the Ripley County sheriff
16 department.
17 A. Yes, I do report them.
18 Q. Do you know which officer you reported it to?
19 A. I wrote a statement.
20 Q. You wrote a statement, was it this year, last
21 year?
22 A. This year.
23 Q. This year, 2017?
24 A. It would have been, yeah, within this month,
25 maybe last month. Yeah, it was in January, probably
56
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1 the, a few days after.
2 Q. Okay. Now, are you aware that your mom has
3 made claims that, relating to property that you wouldn't
4 testify again Chuck if he would --
5 A. And I'm aware that she said that, yes.
6 Q. Did you ever have that conversation with your
7 mother?
8 A. Did I hear it?
9 Q. Did you ever have that conversation with your
10 mom?
11 A. Yeah, we had that conversation.
12 Q. What was the conversation?
13 A. The conversation was, I basically told her I
14 don't care what he tries to give me, nothing's gonna
15 make me not testify.
16 Q. Okay. Did your mom try to suggest that you
17 should try and get these properties in exchange for you
18 not testifying?
19 A. No, she said, that she will never, ever tell me
20 not to testify. She said that she wants me to. She
21 said not to let anyone else talk me out of it either.
22 But I am aware that, of what, well, not exactly what
23 their phone conversation is, well, not exactly, but that
24 she has said that to him.
25 Q. I can let you read it if you like.
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1 A. That's fine. But, I'm also aware of how Chuck
2 is, and, how dangerous he is, and, whenever you fear
3 someone, it's kind of like a bank robbery, or, where
4 someone's getting ready to get murdered, and, they're
5 asking you the question, or they want you to do
6 something, you're gonna say what you're gonna say to get
7 out of it, or to protect your life or any other life
8 that you have in fear of.
9 Q. Do you have any direct evidence or overt threats
10 that were made to you with regard to your life?
11 A. Ask that in a similar form, please.
12 Q. Okay. Has Chuck Haynes or anyone in his family
13 personally threatened you or your life if you testify?
14 A. Recently? Recently?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Threatened my life? Yes, actually he has.
17 Q. Who was that?
18 A. That would be Chuck, on February 24th, 2014, or
19 2015 -- yeah, 2014, February 24th.
20 Q. Okay. Since you've had conversations with Mr.
21 Sergent, and you're saying that he's follows you around,
22 have there been any threats against you or your family?
23 A. Since I ever made reports?
24 Q. U-huh (yes).
25 A. No. But while this case has been pending,
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1 there has been threats.
2 Q. Were there any threats made to you that you can
3 remember in the calendar year 2016?
4 A. 2016. No, I didn't come in contact with him.
5 Q. Are you aware through your mother of any threats
6 made to you, where, or anyone else?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In the calendar year 2016?
9 A. Maybe not. I'm not sure what year this was, but
10 I heard him, I heard him say it myself, through a phone
11 recording, I'm sure you've heard it, that.
12 Q. U-huh (yes), yes, ma'am.
13 A. That he wanted her to bury me, as in, I'm not
14 sure what he meant, but. But he said bury that Hogg,
15 as in that last name, and that's a perfect example of
16 how he would single out me and my sister, that we're not
17 his kids.
18 Q. You would agree with me that that's a, the whole
19 thing about my daughter, you give away this land, my
20 daughter's gonna make this thing go away, if she's like,
21 that's a hell of a lie to spin?
22 A. Not necessarily a lie.
23 Q. Well, I mean, there's, I realize President Trump
24 just got elected, but there are no such things as
25 alternative facts. If the fact that she said it and you
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1 said it to her, that's true?
2 A. Well, I've never said that to her.
3 Q. Okay, well that means it's a lie?
4 A. Okay, it was a lie with certain intent, we'll,
5 how about that. With, how will I say it -- a lie for
6 protection, that's what you could say.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Because he had said in the past that if he's,
9 he's not gonna go to jail, and he won't go out alone, as
10 in go to jail, he won't be the one punished.
11 Q. Have you read the extent, if this whole thing is
12 a lie, have you read the extent of a lie, to where your
13 mom says, hey, you want to meet with him and talk to him
14 about this?
15 A. We were gonna have a meeting.
16 Q. When was this?
17 A. But there was going to be nothing that we talked
18 about. This meeting was going to be a few months ago,
19 you were supposed to be there, Jasper was going to be
20 there and mom and Chuck were supposed to be there.
21 Q. It's news to me.
22 A. Figures.
23 Q. What was the, I guess clue me in?
24 A. The meeting.
25 Q. Yeah.
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1 A. It was supposed to discuss this settlement.
2 Apparently Jasper had asked me, if you, or I'm not sure
3 how this was brought about, but he said that, that side,
4 the opposing side, you guys, were wondering if I would
5 recant my statement and I was like no, sorry, not gonna
6 happen.
7 Q. Okay. Have you ever had any conversations with
8 your mom regarding in this case like that?
9 A. Regarding?
10 Q. Regarding any?
11 A. Property, settlement, stuff like that?
12 Q. Yeah.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Because, I'm gonna tell your, your mom has said
15 that a lot, and it's hard to believe that over the
16 course of three years that she didn't mean what she
17 proposed. We had plenty of recordings.
18 A. Well, I'm very certain that she didn't mean
19 that. That she does not want me to not testify in
20 exchange for property is that what you're saying?
21 Q. I'm not asking if that's what she wanted, I'm
22 asking you if that's what she said?
23 A. I mean, apparently if it's on paper here, yes,
24 she's never told me that that's what she wanted me to
25 do, though.
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1 Q. Has she ever told you that she's trying to rope
2 Chuck in to giving away some property with that promise?
3 A. No, Chuck should give it back. There should not
4 be any question right now. It's mom's property
5 initially, Chuck has no rights to it, initially, except
6 that she signed it to him.
7 Q. We're talking about the property with tax liens?
8 A. All of the property that was mom's before
9 Chuck's.
10 Q. Well, that's what marital property is for.
11 And, you would agree with me that there was --
12 A. I would agree that they should have signed a
13 pre-marital agreement.
14 Q. Maybe so, maybe so. But, their marital estate
15 has significant assets, you would agree with that?
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Do you disagree?
18 MR. SERGENT: At this point, I would object to
19 it.
20 You can answer.
21 A. What is the question again?
22 Q. Their marital estate, the two of them, once this
23 divorce is done, there's a lot of money between 'em?
24 A. Between mom and Chuck?
25 Q. Chuck and Cindy.
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1 A. With the property that they're both gonna
2 receive?
3 Q. Yeah.
4 A. Okay, I'm aware that the property that my mom
5 had before she was married to Chuck was worth a lot of
6 money, yes.
7 Q. That was re-deeded in Chuck's name?
8 A. Yeah, that we deeded to him, not re-deeded.
9 Q. And, I'm sure the explanation, and you're a
10 sharp girl, sharp young lady?
11 A. Thank you.
12 Q. Marital property, I'm sure you're aware of that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And in your mom's case, it would be certainly
15 beneficial if Chuck's in prison so he cannot make a
16 claim to said marital property?
17 MR. SERGENT: I object again. We're not
18 litigating the divorce, we're here for the charges.
19 Q. I understand.
20 A. What is the exact question you're asking me?
21 Q. It's hard for him to contest in a marital estate
22 that's worth a million dollars if he's in prison doing a
23 sentence for molestation, isn't it?
24 A. It would be, but that would be a good reason not
25 to commit the crime. We wouldn't be going through this
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1 right now if he didn't commit the crime.
2 Q. And, basically, has anyone else besides, this is
3 essentially your word against his?
4 A. No, there's hard evidence.
5 Q. Did anybody see you having sex with him?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. And this was reported on Chuck's end or mom's
9 end? This?
10 Q. It was reported on Chuck's end.
11 A. Okay. Do you have the device that it was
12 reported on?
13 Q. Sure do.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Last question, last thing we're going into.
16 Obviously you looked a little surprised that we had all
17 the messages from your cell phone.
18 A. No, I was aware of that. I had given them the
19 password to get on my phone.
20 Q. Are you aware of the child porn that was on your
21 cell phone?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who produced that?
24 A. Who took the photos?
25 Q. Yes.
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1 A. I took the photos.
2 Q. Who were you sending them to?
3 A. They weren't necessarily sent to anyone.
4 Q. You're saying none of those photos were sent?
5 A. They were sent, but I don't recall who exactly
6 they were sent to.
7 Q. Did you guys have any issues in the house about
8 you taking those photos and you getting in trouble for
9 it?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You're sure about that?
12 A. I'm positive. I never got in trouble for taking
13 those pictures.
14 Q. I have not seen them, and those were just
15 disclosed to me today. How many would you estimate,
16 how many separate acts of child pornography production
17 would you estimate are on that phone?
18 A. I don't have, I'm not sure.
19 Q. Okay. You were eighteen or nineteen now?
20 A. I just turned eighteen.
21 Q. Eighteen. You knew that was on the phone from
22 the moment, obviously, the moment you took the picture?
23 Yes?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. That same phone you uploaded to a
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1 computer?
2 A. No, I don't think so.
3 Q. Bernice --
4 A. Which computer, I might have.
5 Q. Bernice Haynes' computer, the one that's sitting
6 in Poplar Bluff right now?
7 A. Possibly.
8 Q. I guess what puzzles me and I'm gonna wrap up on
9 this, why were you taking nude photos of yourself, if
10 you weren't sending them to people?
11 A. I never said I never sent them.
12 Q. Who did you send them to?
13 A. And I said I can't remember.
14 Q. You don't remember which person?
15 A. I cannot remember which pictures.
16 Q. Any, to anyone?
17 A. Any pictures?
18 Q. A nude?
19 A. Like, are you wanting a name?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Let me think, this has been quite a while ago,
22 I'm sure, you know. Tommy McRay, that's a boy I sent
23 one to. But, it was quite a while ago.
24 Q. Okay. Do you have the photograph of Chuck's
25 hand in my shirt? Do you have it here?
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1 MR. SERGENT: No, not here.
2 A. Is it clear? What, I haven't seen it, since
3 I've took it, so.
4 MR. SERGENT: We'll talk about it later.
5 I think it's been disclosed.
6 Q. I'm sure.
7 A. That was on the one disk that he did burn, four
8 times, that part has been disclosed.
9 Q. I'll have to go back and look at it again.
10 Like we were talking about earlier, there's just
11 so much discovery in this thing.
12 Have you understood all my questions?
13 A. For the most part.
14 Q. Are there any questions that I asked that you
15 did not understand that you have not asked me to
16 rephrase?
17 A. Not that I need to bring out.
18 Q. Is there anything that you want to revisit or
19 talk about that we have not previously discussed?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What is that?
22 A. I would like to talk about February 24th, 2014.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. Where, he threatened me. We were in his house,
25 and, we were throwing a birthday party for Sara. This
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1 is after the charges were filed, and, this is before the
2 preliminary hearing, so, he had been, we, he had gone
3 out to his dad's grave and visited. We visit his dad's
4 grave, and then we came back to his house, the 2312
5 address, and, me and my little sister, Mikaela, were
6 decorating the house for my little sister Sara's
7 birthday and he was looking for some Scotch tape for
8 something, I don't know what he needed it for, but I
9 told him I didn't know where it was. He asked me if I
10 knew where it was and I said, no. He started
11 complaining about how it wasn't put back in the drawer
12 where it was supposed to be, and how no one ever puts
13 everything where it's supposed to be, and how everyone
14 in the house is lazy. I'm like it's just Scotch tape,
15 I'm sure it can be found. And he was like, you know
16 what, little kid, you better not screw with me, because
17 I don't have much to lose. And that's when I told Jeff
18 Johnson that we were back living with him and that's
19 when he was arrested the second time.
20 Q. Are there any other instances that you remember?
21 A. An instance is where he threatened me?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Not at this time.
24 Q. Okay. All right. Is there anything else you
25 want to talk about?
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1 A. No, sir.
2 MR. LISZEWSKI: Okay.
3 MR. SERGENT: I have a couple questions.
4
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. SERGENT:
7 Q. Melissa, why did you go through the trouble of
8 leaving your mom the note and then calling her, why
9 didn't you tell her that day?
10 A. Because I didn't want her to find out whenever
11 they were together, when they were around each other.
12 Q. Why not?
13 A. Because I didn't want them to fight, didn't want
14 to cause a fight between them. I didn't want them to
15 get violent.
16 Q. We talked about this progressed from a hug to
17 open mouth kisses, and, that, the first hug was in 2011
18 when you were twelve years old. When, how old do you
19 think you were when he gave you this first open mouth
20 kiss?
21 A. Twelve.
22 Q. What about the time, the first time that he
23 touched you on the thigh when you were on a tractor, how
24 old were you then?
25 A. Twelve.
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1 Q. What about the first time that he used his
2 fingers to touch your vagina, how old were you then?
3 A. Probably was thirteen.
4 Q. Do you remember that instance?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you remember about what time of year it was?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What time of year?
9 A. It was probably, a little later after January, I
10 don't know, it could have been, I could have been just
11 almost 13, I'm not sure. But, it was wintertime, and
12 it was cold outside. We were in the basement of his
13 house, so, it, and, there was wood in the stove and so I
14 know it's cold, and I know we were down here, so we had
15 a chute that we would throw wood down and put it in the
16 stove and it would heat the house. And there was this
17 other room, and you would go downstairs, and there was
18 this wood stove room and there was another room that we
19 call the play room and then over there was the washer
20 and dryer. And to the left of that room was like a
21 breaker room, breaker box, electrical stuff and that's
22 the room that we were in. And we were standing down
23 there, and, he was kissing me on the mouth, and sucking
24 on my breasts. He did that multiple times, and, then
25 he put his hand in my pants. He's wearing pajama pants,
70
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1 and he put his finger inside me.
2 Q. So that would have been winter of 2011, 2012?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. SERGENT: I don't have anything further.
5 MR. LISZEWSKI: Okay, basically, we've finished
6 up this deposition today. You, as the person being
7 deposed, have the right to do one of two things. You
8 can have a copy of the transcript of the deposition sent
9 to you, where you can review it for typographical
10 errors, punctuation marks, things like that. You can't
11 change the substance of what you've said.
12 A. Right.
13 MR. LISZEWSKI: That's option one. You'd have
14 to notarize it, send it back to Ms. Stewart, and that
15 would have to be done before the trial. Option two is,
16 is if you believe that she's taking down your words
17 accurately, she's been a court reporter for a long time,
18 you can waive signature. Either option is yours, the
19 choice is yours.
20 A. Can you explain the first option, again?
21 MR. LISZEWSKI: The first option is, she would
22 print out a copy of the transcript of your testimony.
23 That would get sent to your mailing address, you would
24 review that for typographical errors, and, grammar,
25 things like that. You couldn't change the substance of
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1 it, would you have to have that notarized and sent it
2 back to her in time for trial. Okay, if your question
3 is, will I get a transcript of what I've said, the
4 answer is yes, they'll provide you a copy before trial,
5 and, if that's your concern. Option two, is, if you
6 trust that she's taken down your words accurately and
7 completely, you can look at her and say I'll waive
8 signature, and we're done.
9 A. We can be done.
10 * * * * *
11 (Deposition concluded at 3:08 p.m., witness excused.)
12
13 [Signature waived.]
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1
2 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
3
4 I, Jill Crowder, a Certified Court Reporter (MO CCR
5 No. 565), do hereby certify that the witness whose
6 testimony appears in the foregoing deposition was duly
7 sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was duly
8 sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was
9 taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter
10 reduced to typewriting under my direction; that I am
11 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of
12 the parties to the action in which this deposition was
13 taken, and further, that I am not a relative or employee
14 of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties
15 thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the
16 outcome of the action.
17
18
19 _________________
20 Jill Crowder Stewart
21
22
23
24
25
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1 STATE OF MISSOURI
2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF RIPLEY COUNTY
3
4
5 STATE OF MISSOURI, )
6 Plaintiff, )
7 Vs. )Case No. 13RI-CR00907-01
8 CHARLES HAYNES, )
9 Defendant. )
10
11 CERTIFICATE OF DEPOSITION
12
13 Comes now Jill Crowder and pursuant to Rule
57.03(g)(2)(a) states as follows:
14
The deposition of Melissa Hogg was taken on
15 February 9, 2017.
16 The name and address of the person of firm
having custody of the original transcript is:
17
Ted Liszewski
18 Liszewski Law Firm
220 North Main Street
19 Sikeston, MO 63801
20 At the time of delivery of the transcript, the
deposition charges had not been paid. Payment status
21 will be updated at the request of the Court pursuant to
Section 492.590(2) RSMO.
22
23 By:_________________
24 JILL STEWART
870-740-0799
25 Jillcrowder@ymail.com
74