ORAL HISTORY - 1 ORAL HISTORY - 2 ORAL HISTORY - 3
Conversation Three
Date: September 1985
Present: Sophie, Min, Roger
They are looking through the earlier transcripts, and the family tree. The conversation was about Marlene who was a hairdresser.
Sophie
... she had a very good training at Ronnies in Streatham High Road. So she took customers upstairs. She fitted up a little salon. But then something went wrong with the marriage -- a lot went wrong. He wasn't a very nice person. She should never have married him. He had some awful eye complaint... I used to see her when I used to go with Ziggie to the ophthalmic department. Once in a while I would see her there. She was just the same. Smiling.
Minnie
The brother, who I didn't know very much about...
Sophie
He went into the Print -- you know if you get into the Print, once you're a printer it's a good living. Then he went into business with somebody for one of the big firms and they got their own equipment, and he's in the money. He's got a big bungalow. He once gave me and Marlene a lift, coming back from somewhere -- I can't remember where it was -- it was something to do with Rosie. Not recently. I must have seen Marlene about two years ago. I know exactly where she is -- she could fill me in with a lot of things. But Shleme's just like his father --. The son is just like the father. Smart Alex. And he's well off. He helps Marlene. And he saw her through the divorce.
Minnie
He went right out on a limb. And nobody knows him.
Sophie
And nobody bothered with him.
Minnie
The last time I saw Sybil I said do you hear anything of him...
Roger
That's what I wanted to know. Do they ever keep contact with them?
Minnie
I saw the few weeks ago when they came over. They took me to Cyrie and Kathleen's. I said you see anything of Marlene and Cyril. And she said no.
Sophie
Actually Fannie went senile in her old age. And they had to get somebody.
Minnie
They lived in Battersea.
Sophie
And she lives in Balham. I know exactly where she is. She said to me any time you want your hair done Sophie...
Roger
This Dr Bronstein you were talking about -- he's not a relation?
Sophie
No. He was only a doctor.
Minnie
He was Grandma Noble's doctor. And he was a doctor to you and me when we lived in Crownstone Court, he used to come and see us if we needed anything. But he really lived in Battersea. He was the doctor to the boxing profession, wasn't he?
Sophie
Yes. He used to go abroad with them. ... (The conversation continued, they moved on to Tevye, who had visited England before the war and thought to stay) ...
Sophie
... he has to leave the Heim and come here. And you'll never have any Mazal if you don't go to Shul on Shabbos. He was very frum. And he didn't like the idea of having to work -- cos she used to be the one who worked. He was lazy -- very lazy. ... (The conversation about Tevye had led on from a conversation about his daughter, the only possible family survivor of the Holocaust in Poland who had made contact with Anna after the war. The conversation returns to her) ...
Sophie
You know what. She didn't come to visitor us. She sent somebody to visitor us -- that doctor. Because she wanted a white doctor's coat, and two medical books she wanted. And Leibie got them for her. Lionel knows about that. But I got a picture of her. I've got all the pictures. I'll go through the pictures if you want them.
Roger
Tevye's wife was...
Sophie
I don't know her name. Sorretel's husband was Tsadik. Uncle Melach's first wife was Tsippel-Frume, and I was called after her. His second wife was Toby. It's a shame. If we had known then that, we should have known about all the relatives... we only knew what Mama told us. The only one who still might be there is Berl. He left money here. We gave it to Uncle Jack in the end. His children... the youngest one wasn't quite all there...
Minnie
They had an Edie as well.
Sophie
Oh yes. That was a posh one. She married out. I forgot completely about her. There was Beckie, Joe, Gittel, Edie, Minnie and Shlomo. I'd forgotten about Edie. Gittel never mentioned her. I speak to Gittel a lot. She came to a conference in Israel. She is a good WIZO girl. I've seen her over the years.
Roger
With these second cousins, is there a family likeness?
Sophie
Oh yes -- she's a real Salit. I saw her in February. Steffi looks like a Salit. She looks like Steffi, and like Minnie. You know she was a member of the family.
Minnie
Salit was my mother's maiden name. That was the blonde side of the family. Joe and Moishe's grandchildren...
Sophie
She was blonde. She came to London, and lived with us for a while -- and she became like one of us. She loved Mama, and she loved Minnie...
Minnie
I remember that Beckie Salit. I can see her face so clearly.
Sophie
She lives in Deal. She's got little bungalow there. Gittel tops me up with all the family news, where they all are. The eldest boy, Joe, had just come over from America. His wife had died. He was quite well off and he had come over on a visit to Leeds. And Shlomo is doing well somewhere else. I can't remember where. She said they're all well thank God - all doing very well. Beckie is in retirement. The husband died. She never had any children. They sold the bungalow, and she gave the money to this retirement home. And she lives in Deal in a retirement home. She's very comfortable there. Gittel sees her now and again. Gittel tries to be like all of us you know. She so proud when Edie goes up.
Minnie
But she doesn't keep in touch with Joni very much. Joni's got a Salit face. Joni's mother was Moishe's Minnie. (The conversation goes on to Minnie and her sister Hetty who lived with her and Moishe.)
Sophie
She loved the children. She adored the kids.
Minnie
I always remember she came to see us when I first lived at Harcourt Lodge in Wallington when I first got married. Moishe and Minnie came over to tea. Binkie had brought me some beautiful Shelley china. And I used to use the tea-pot. And I never knew how to clean a tea-pot. I was pouring tea out of the teapot and she said to me, "Minnie, I hope you will be offended. Everything is so beautiful, why don't you clean the teapot spout?" I had no idea. I didn't know you had to clean the teapot spout. I had never had a china teapot. So she got me a little brush and she showed me. And I am so conscious of teapot spouts! It just goes to show. That was the first year I was married -- 1938. She was very houseproud, Minnie. She kept a beautiful house.
Sophie
If you went into her bedroom there was a chair, and there were clothes upon clothes. She never hung anything up. Minnie, you never slept there.
Minnie
Now Minnie and Hetty were the daughters of a very wealthy man in Hull, called Saltzon. Their mother died young and he married another woman who late in life had a daughter called Phyllis. She was a friend of mine.
Sophie
There were two of them.
Minnie
No Bubbles was Beckie's daughter. So I used to play with Phyllis. She was Minnie's stepsister -- very much younger, and she was a friend of mine. And the lived in a very big house -- to me it was luxury. And I remember the big fat woman was the mother, and she went after South Africa, and during the war -- was its Cyrie or Lionel -- came across her? And she entertained them.
Sophie
I can't remember very much about that. Gittel is married to a man called Sidney Jackson -- he was a hairdresser. He was very keen on photography, and he started dabbling in pictures. He used to go about buying and selling pictures. All her children have done very well. She's got grandchildren. You know you can't imagine her as a grandmother, but her face has gone... well haven't we all. High cheekbones. But it's the same face. You can't mistake her. She was so proud when Edie went to Leeds to talk to the League (of Jewish women).
Minnie
But funnily enough she doesn't keep much contact with Joni always Joe and Vivienne (Joe is Lou Wayne's brother).
Sophie
Gittel would like to mix with Vivienne's crowd. And Joni doesn't care about any of them. She couldn't care less. She and Harry are their own people. She's not a joiner. She goes to work three days a week, and looks after the house, the ironing and the washing, and she's devoted to Harry. That's her life. Gittel would like to be like Edie. So she's really towards Vivienne's lot but they've got their own little clique. (The conversation moved on to recent WIZO conference in Leeds) (Later Sophie comments on the likeness between Roger's Daniella, Stephen's Paul, and Martin -- and then between them and Dada) Look at the early pictures of Dada, when he had his hat on.
Minnie
Martin looks like Lammie. Cyrie looks like that.
Sophie
But Dada never grew to be Cyrie's age. He grew to look old and ill. Dada was 48 when he became ill, and was ill for ten years till he died when he was fifty-eight. He was 48 when he had his first operation. It started with something that grew into cancer, and eventually he died. (The conversation returned to the Polish cousins who were killed during war)
Minnie
Before the war I'm sure they were trying to get here.
Sophie
No. Before the war they were trying to get us to come there. You know they sent us a tin of butter -- they thought we were starving. And they wrote and said...
Minnie
They thought they were all right -- they didn't know they were in danger.
Sophie
They didn't at that point. When it was 1938, and it was threatening...
Minnie
It must have been 1940 because I've got a letter that says "what was Minnie's baby -- was it a girl or a boy?" So he came to visit when I was pregnant (1939-1940). And he went back to Poland, and wrote to Joe. And this (?) letter never got back to him -- it was Joe's letter -- it was sent back to him - it said 'Censored'.
Sophie
Joe got a letter. I got a letter -- in fact I think I got two letters. And I've got some photos.