ORAL HISTORY - 1 ORAL HISTORY - 2 ORAL HISTORY - 3
CONVERSATION TWO
Date: 1/9/85 - My original transcript is dated 1/9/85 - but I think that was the day that Ziggie died - It seems unlikely that this was recorded at the shiva(1) but it might have been. It certainly happened after 23/8/85 (the previous conversation) and was in September 1985.
Present: Sophie, Cyril, Kathleen, Lou, Mildred, Min, Roger, Mary, Daniella, Adam
The recording starts in the middle of conversation between Sophie and Cyril about Anna Salit's (that's Grandma Davidson's) mother i.e. Cyril and Sophie's grandmother...
Sophie
She went as a wet nurse to a very rich household because she had milk, to feed the baby of the rich household. And her baby she gave to somebody who was worse off than she was...
Cyril
That was Mama...
Sophie
That was Uncle Jack. He grew up with rickets; he grew up with bandy legs; he grew up as a sickly child; actually he lived longer any of them in the end. By the time he came here he had grown out of that. He'd been in the Army in Russia or Lithuania or wherever it was -- and he came here as a man in his middle twenties. He finished and they'd let him go from the Army.
Cyril
We saw the picture that Edie had of him, she'd got it somewhere. And he looked a fine strapping bloke with a moustache and a military uniform.
Sophie
What did he do in 1914? He was one of the first volunteers.
Cyril
So Mama's mother remained in Vilna.
Sophie
Geoffie was born the year after that mother died. Now Mama always had a grievance against her mother because all these children were all farmed out, so that her mother could earn enough money to keep the family going to have a better life herself. Uncle Melach was already about 12 or 13 so he was given out to a tailor - to learn to be tailor -- he went 'auf keist'. 'Auf keist' is no wages - you got your food, and you slept under the bed, like an apprentice. They taught him to be tailor, or to cut or to machine, or whatever. They taught him, and that's where he learned his trade. And at night he slept under the table with a cushion under his head, and a blanket. That was Uncle Melach. Sorretel when she was old enough went to be a servant somewhere, or maybe stood in a market or something. I'm not sure. When Mama was a youngster she worked for rich cousin who had a stall in the market, and had a little room at the back. After they'd eaten their dinner, they'd leave her something to eat in the back. Then she'd go and eat. Then Uncle Melach came here, and made a life for himself. He came with his bride. I'm named after her, Tsietl-Frume. And she died. After Rosie was born, a year and half afterwards, she had a little boy, and the little boy was stillborn, and she was very poorly. They went for a walk in the park one shabbos(2) afternoon, and when she was in the park she had haemorrhage. She had a very heavy haemorrhage, and by the time they got her home she died. So Mama was left to bring Rosie and Fannie... Well she didn't bring them up, they brought themselves up,. And then Uncle Melach married....(?)
Cyril
Did Mama ever maintain any contact with her mother? I suppose she couldn't, because she couldn't write.
Sophie
No. I think she did with the family because we used to keep in touch... They used to come to us. You remember?
Cyril
Yes. But years afterwards. Jo and Harry. But with her own mother?
Sophie
She must have done. I don't remember. I don't know. People came and went. Uncle Jack came.
Cyril
But he never went back did he?
Sophie
No. He never went back. When Uncle Jack came his mother was still alive. Now Uncle Tevye was the clever one. When Uncle Tevye was growing up already things were a bit better for them. And Uncle Tevye was befriended. In his mother's family there were rich relations, and he was taken in by them. They had no children, and they gave him an education. He went to college - they called it the Gymnasia -- he went to the Gymnasia, and he was clever. He became a mensch(3). By this time Vilna had become... The stedtl(4) had... well like here. The East End moved out, and eventually they got to Golders Green. So this is what happens with the little stedtls - Schaevit gebirne(5). So they went to live in Vilna. They got a bit of education. And they grew wealthier. They weren't rich. They became clever. They became dealers in this, and dealers in that.
Cyril
In by the time we met Jo and Harry as they were dealing in textiles and all sorts of things.
Sophie
That was Sorretel's family. Sorretel and Tsadik. Their parents were still alive, and they bought as news of Uncle Tevye, and all his children. Two of them were doctors, and two were lawyers. He had five children. They were all wiped out in the Holocaust. There was one woman left. We got a letter from her. She was somewhere in Russia or... I don't know. She'd been saved. She was already a doctor and they wanted her in the hospital. But she wrote that she wanted books. Geoffie got them. Mama was living at Tilson House at the time. We sent her a white overcoat, and the books she asked for. And then we never heard any more.
Cyril
When you think about it, the whole lot were wiped out in those three or four years.
Sophie
But you see, look how people pick themselves up here in England. They were all immigrants, and look how they've...(managed)
Cyril
That was Mama's the side of the family. As far as Dada was concerned, did he ever keep contact with his people? He didn't did he?
Sophie
He used to write and write and write. They never forgave him. He never got a reply. He used to cry. They didn't forgive him.
Cyril
Well he couldn't go back presumably because...
Sophie
Well he hadn't gone back. He had a ticket to go back, and he didn't. He came to Hull and he married Mama, and Uncle Melach taught him to be a machinist. That's how he made his living. Then he was the first chairman of the garment union -- he made a good Socialist.
Cyril
What was the business that his father was in?
Sophie
He had a big brewery.
Cyril
A brewery or was it a mill?
Sophie
A brewery.
Cyril
An honourable profession. It is interesting to go back over the (diesers?) and get it clear in your mind who they were.
Sophie
I wanted to go to Poland. I know there are still some members of that family still there. Dada was the only son of that family.
Cyril
But Jo went there didn't he?
Sophie
Yes it was one of those tours where they didn't let you out of sight, you know.
Cyril
I wonder whether Leib would be interested in going.
Sophie
You've got to find Hodgies -- Hodgies is the village outside Warsaw where they... When Dada was very very ill, we had no money. Do you remember that Rov(6) in Hull - with a red beard. Well his father had been a Rov in that village where Dada's family were. And when that Rov came to England he found my father - alav hashalom(7) - in Hull, he made a friend. He was the only friend. Nobody likes that Rov in Hull.
Cyril
He used to thunder, didn't he, and was ferocious...
Sophie
So he made a friend of Dada. He used to bring him books. And Dada was ill at the time. And when he was very ill and the Rov saw what the position was like at home, he wrote to the Rov there, and told him about Dada. Dada would have gone mad if he'd have known that somebody had written and said that he was in poverty. So he wrote and said was there any kind of inheritance there that could help this family who's young children - Leib was a baby and you (Cyril) were about 7 or 8 years old. He got a letter back from the Rov, and he said there are 12 families all from the adopted son. Dada's mother had had a lot of miscarriages, and she adopted a boy. When that boy was about three years old Dada was born. So the other boy when he grew up was in the brewery. And when Dada grew up they sent him out of the country to get away from the army. They sent to the university -- the Gymnasia -- and when he finished his education they paid to get him out of the army - and they sent him on world tour to stay away until when he came back he'd be too old. But he didn't go back. When he came to Hull he went to take a present to this woman in Hull, and Mrs Marmoth, who was a cook in his mother's house. So he goes to Mrs Marmoth and Mama was there with Annie Molitski and poor Petty Ackovitz - and he asked "What is all the excitement". "We're going to Hull Fair -- ". "Can I come with?" - "Come with." On the way back he got lost with Mama...
Cyril
... And here we are! It bears thinking that we never knew our grandparents, never met them, and they never met us. It's a different world isn't it for our grandchildren...
Sophie
Ziggie knew his grandparents. His grandparents came over here married. They married in the Heim(8) -- they came over here and started their family. Ziggie's mother, and Auntie Becky and Auntie Leah they were all born here. They came in the early days.
Cyril
So on the Nobles side they were one generation ahead of us.
Sophie
No - they came at the right time. They came from the stedtl. If Dada's circumstances had been the same, if his parents had come when he came... But they didn't. They had it good there where they were. They were like the 'squire'....
Cyril
But if you went back and you found it -- what then Sophie?
Sophie
I don't know
Cyril
You are saying that there were a lot of families presumably dependent on the income of the brewery...
Sophie
Yes. The brewery was burnt down during the First World War, and parents were burnt down with it. And whoever was left built the thing up again - and it's theirs. And this Rov got the letter back, and it said in the letter that it would be in 'avira' (sin) to take from them. The 'yerusha' (inheritance) is burnt so it would be an avira to take from them.
Cyril
All the same it will be nice to go back and have a look round to see where it all happened, where it all began.
Sophie
I'm reading now that Flora Sorrell. When you read that there were those kind of people in Russia. Her life in Russia as a child was like our father's life would have been, only more so. Whereas he was only the 'nobility' of the village, they were the 'nobility' of the country. A different day and age. It was good for some people.
Cyril
It's good for the children should know what the background is.
Sophie
Ziggie left a little thing and it said "Lazar Dovid Shotness" - that's his grandfather - born named Gantmacher, came to England on a false passport of a man called Shotness. So he came here as Shlomo Shotness though his name was Gantmacher. That's Ziggie's zeida. Buba - the grandmother - there's some little history there - and then the children that she had. Auntie Leah and Auntie Jessie...
Cyril
Ziggie set this all down in a family tree.
Sophie
It's all down. Then there's Lou, Charlie, Bernie... That's all. He can't go back any further than that. We can't go back more than a couple of generations. She can -- Flora Sorrel.
(The conversation continues as they look through a family tree. Eventually they look at Sorretel's family)
Sophie
Sorretel's children as far as I know, were Harry and Joe -- and Berl as well, the youngest one. They lived in Vilna. Now he had some money in England.
Cyril
What happened to the money?
Sophie
Charlie kept banking it. Then when we didn't hear any more from them he gave it to Uncle Jack.... Berl wasn't married. He used to leave money in case when he comes back -- you know -- I think he was thinking maybe be of coming to England -- it was before the war.
Cyril
I have a letter somewhere...
Sophie
I've got letters. (Roger) I've got the letters. I'll give them to you if you are interested.
Cyril
Minnie and I went up to meet him at the Strand Palace one evening.
Sophie
Oh there's a funny story. Do you remember the story when he had piles? We got a telephone call from the Heim saying go down to this hotel in the East End, what did they call it, where we were married, Stern's in the East End -- they call it the Three Tuns or the Three Nuns or something -- because Joe is there. They sent as an urgent telegram that he's very ill -- they're taking off his leg. So Mama, said "Quick, you must go and see. What do they mean they're taking off his leg?" So Me and Ziggie went down. And in Yiddish he'd said to them, "Ist der mir ungenumen ein Fuss." He'd got a pain. It was a poor translation of what he said in Yiddish. "Ungenumen" means "I've got such a pain I can't walk on it" -- like "I'm without a leg!"
So we ran down, and he's laying in bed, and we can't see any cage on him, and if he has had his leg off he should be in hospital. And in Yiddish, because he didn't have very good English, he said "Its hurting me and it's terrible." So they called the doctor, and the doctor gave him something to take. And he's also got something from the back passage -- he can't sit, he can only lay. Zig said it sounds as if he's got bad piles -- he's bleeding from round the back -- so Ziggie said he's got bleeding piles or something. So we get him dressed and pay the bill, with his money. And we go into Whitechapel and we get on the bus, and it's half empty, and the conductor says "No standing. Sit down!" And he wouldn't sit down -- he couldn't sit down -- his bum was hurting him! He stood, and the conductor kept saying sit down, and Ziggie kept winking at me. "What am I going to do with him?" So I said to him in Yiddish "______auf sitzen - kenn er stehen _______". In a few minutes we'll be home. So he was sitting there and he was wriggling from one side to the other.
Anyway thank God we pulled up outside... it was '34 '35 and we were living over the shop in Battersea. We had that front bedroom that looked on to the street. So he can't sit and he can't stand. His foot hurts him and he's got this thing. So I said to Zig, the only thing is we'll put him to bed and we'll send for Dr Bronstein. So we phone Dr Bronstein, but it's after surgery hours by then, and he's not there, and he'll come in the morning. Our phone was out of order, so Ziggie had gone in next door to Ben Coleman -- you remember he used to be a barber next door to us. He was a bit of a funny fellow. Well he was a barber, and he used to wear a white coat. So he says to Ziggie you know what, to put his mind at rest, I'll be the doctor. Well he was waiting for the doctor. They were so terrible those lads -- they were shocking. So Ziggie goes with Ben Coleman, and he puts this thing around his neck like a stethoscope. And his Yiddish was good. So he goes in and he says, "Was zu tseh weiss?" So he says "Summet wehe tsets". In Yiddish it's "Turn over...." And Ziggie was plating - he had to go outside. He says "Gor nicht___________" So he scribbles something on a piece of paper, and he says to Zig, "Kimmeren bei mir, und sie geben der medizin... and the pain will go away." so he goes down stairs and he gives Ziggie a bottle of aspirin; takes the label off and puts on it "take three times a day" or something.
Meanwhile we didn't have a bed to sleep in. I think he was in our bed. So we make up a bed next door with Buba, and he's sleeping there. So he takes the pills and before he goes to bed I gave him drink, and give him something to eat. He can't sit up to eat, so he's drinking and eating this way, and we say goodnight to him, and say that in the morning we'll give him more medicine. Meanwhile we'd cabled back that his leg was all right and there's nothing wrong with him. He's okay -- the doctor's seen him and he's got medicine. And we shipped him back. He was okay -- he had something -- it was piles. Taki - the next morning we got Dr Bronstein. He came in and he examined him. "He's got a very bad attack of haemorrhoids." He gave him an ointment. And his foot was hurting him -- he'd sprained an ankle or something. He said to let him rest upstairs a bit. So we went downstairs, and we told Dr Bronstein what we'd done the day before. But he said "Really you shouldn't do things like that -- because he might be very ill." But what you do is someone's really ill, and he's frightened out of his life that we'll put in hospital..." That was Joe. He was a schlemiel -- everything happened to him."
NOTES
1 Shiva - period of mourning
2 shabbos - Shabbat - Sabbath
3 mensch - 'a man'
4 stedtl - Lit: a little town - Jewish village or neighbourhood
5 Schaevit gebirne - (Don't know - any help? Editor) - see below
6 Rov - rabbi
7 alav hashalom - peace be upon him
8 heim - lit: home - homeland - the old country
Addendum 2008: Schaevit gebirne: We now believe that the phrase was actually Shirvint Gebornia means 'the district of Sivintos' -Sirvintos is the town where we think Grandma (Annie Salit) was born. The family assumed when Grandma said she came from'Vilna' she meant the city - but it is also the name of the region. This explains Sophie's comments "By this time Vilna had become... The stedtl(4) had... well like here. The East End moved out, and eventually they got to Golders Green. So this is what happens with the little stedtls - Schaevit gebirne(5). So they went to live in Vilna."