Mindi Wernick and Malkie Grozalsky

Interview

Mindi Wernick, 36, Financial Representative

Hometown: Los Angeles, CA

Malkie Grozalsky, 36, Graduate Student

Hometown: Boro Park, Brooklyn, NY

Current residence: Windsor Terrace, Brooklyn, NY

Date of interview: August 19, 2007

Mindi: “It was a shidduch/blind date. Someone I knew from elementary school saw Malkie at a meeting of gay yeshiva alumni and said, ‘you have to meet her.’”

Malkie: “We went out to a restaurant and told each other everything about each other. That’s the way Orthodox people date--we don’t date for its own sake—we want to find out quickly if there’s anything there. After the first date we thought we’d try it again.”

Mindi: “It was the heyday of gay Orthodox people getting together and finding a place for ourselves. We went to a lot of events, meetings, and movie previews. While ‘Trembling Before God’ was being made we went to showings of excerpts to the community. I had my own apartment, and after six months Malkie was over there five days a week. After nine months we found a new apartment and moved in together. That was nine and a half years ago; we were 27. On our tenth anniversary we will have a commitment ceremony, but not one modeled on weddings, which we feel are contrived.”

Malkie: “It removes the groom and substitutes a second bride; it feels like co-opting a ceremony and rituals that don’t work for us. We would rather have something created for us.”

Mindi: “We’re both highly Jewishly educated; we’ll try to create something authentic. It will be a nice family thing for our sons Micah (five and a half) and Max (three and a half). Having kids is a bigger commitment than having a ceremony.

“Yes, I do believe in a beshert.”

Malkie: “I don’t know.”

Mindi: “In ‘Many Lives Many Masters’ Brian Weis explains that souls are created together but assume different roles in different lifetimes. Early on I felt Malkie was very familiar; maybe we were together in other lifetimes.”

Malkie: I believe in soul mates but not foreordained ones. I like the story but don’t believe it. There are people out there with whom you can connect on a deeper level. It wasn’t love at first sight, but we knew there was something between us.”

Both: “It was the right time.”

Mindi: “We have more of an equal relationship than our parents did. Our parents were ten years apart. Our parents were opposites and so are we; each of us has her own mother’s and the other’s father’s personality.”

Malkie: “Our likes, dislikes, and personalities are opposites, but we have more commonalities than our parents.”

Mindi: “My parents had an open house with lots of guests, and so do we.”

Malkie: “We each have the worst characteristics of the other’s parents.”

Mindi: “We married our parents, but it’s OK. Psychologists call it the repeat compulsion. It also explains the familiarity we felt when we met.

“I grew up Modern Orthodox. Malkie grew up Chasidic. If we were not gay I might still be Orthodox.”

Malkie: “You would not!’

Mindi: “I might, but it’s a hypothetical question. Malkie found the whole thing oppressive. We found a way.”

Malkie: “We didn’t set rigid rules.”

Mindi: “We’re making it work for our lives instead of a certain set way. Our holiday observances are traditional. We find a way to mark Shabbat. We belong to a Conservative shul. Our First Pesach together I wanted to be strictly observant, and Malkie didn’t care.”

Malkie: “I said, ‘If you want to do it, do it, but I won’t do the work. We’re still traditional, but now I do all the work, since Mindi works outside the home.”

Mindi: “To me being Jewish is a tradition—being part of a heritage.”

Malkie: “Growing up Orthodox everything was Jewish. For me now it’s about being connected to something larger than myself and less about rules.”

Mindi: “For the children we keep more rules than we would for ourselves. As a family it’s important that we do it.”

Malkie: “Being Jewish is just there. It’s something that informs our choices. It’s very much in the foreground, because it influences everything. Our kids play turns into the Exodus story. Neither of us works Saturdays, and we always take the holidays off. It influenced our choice of partner.”

Mindi: “There had to be that commonality of how we grew up.”

Malkie: “We make financial sacrifices so our kids can go to a Jewish school.”

Mindi: “Malkie buys all my clothing, so we have the same style. We grow more similar over time. We’re both passionate about helping others.”

Malkie: “Mindi is the queen of small talk, and I don’t talk to strangers.”

Mindi: “I’m more extroverted, she’s more introverted and more intellectual.”

Malkie: “She’s more of a risk taker; I’m not. We both like to have people over and entertain. We know how to do that, and what part of that each of us is good at.”

Mindi: “My mom was a party planner, and that role comes naturally to me.

We’re a refuge for Orthodox and formerly Orthodox lesbians, and we’re fine with that role. I’m passionate about my work and family. I’m passionate about others’ happiness. Malkie reads; I don’t. I don’t know much about music; I let Malkie program my ipod. She likes documentaries; I like dramas. We like the same furniture. I don’t follow politics; I vote for whomever Malkie says—we have common values. As for childrearing, Malkie is more strict, but I do all the rituals with the kids.”

Malkie: “It’s not a conscious decision on my part not to, and it’s your thing.”

Mindi: “I’m like the dad; ritual is my department. We both say Shma with the kids. I talk about God with the kids; Malkie doesn’t.”

Malkie: “I believe in God--more like Mordechai Kaplan’s God, but the kids aren’t old enough for that kind of discussion.”

Mindi: “We’re pretty traditional: I tell the kids God wrote the Torah, and we must respect it.”

Both: “No, we’re too different to be friends if we were not a couple.”

Mindi: “Had we met on our own instead of being introduced we would never have become a couple. My fear at the start was losing myself, but it’s worked out fine. Malkie wanted kids, but I wasn’t sure. It’s all integrated, being Jewish and gay. When we moved from Manhattan to Brooklyn I was nervous, because we didn’t know anyone. But we took a leap of faith that we’d find our way, and we did. To me, God provided for us.”

Malkie: “It wasn’t a series of random events.”

Mindi: “We’re monogamous, we keep to it, and we deal with jealousy.”

Malkie: “I have not been tempted, nor have I been jealous.”

Mindi: “I’m a jealous person, and Malkie is not. We’re each other’s best friend and confidant.

“Malkie just finished her first master’s degree and is starting her second. We’re still figuring it out. But I like having the role of breadwinner, since I don’t like housework and child care. And Malkie loves that and so does more child care, and I do more housework.”

Malkie: “I’m a strict parent and take care of the nitty-gritty -- I see that day to day things happen: clothes are bought and doctors’ appointments are kept. Mindi does the fun stuff. I don’t like to entertain them.”

Mindi: “I take them to the park, the zoo, the botanical gardens, the beach, the museum, and movies.”

Malkie: “I don’t even like that stuff for myself.”

Mindi: “I took them to the supermarket in pajamas.”

Malkie: “Which I would never do.”

Mindi: “I’m fun and Malkie is practical.”

Malkie: “Moving in together was a difficult transition. Back then I worked and you didn’t.”

Mindi: “It took getting used to each other. Having kids was stressful -- one more ball to juggle. Our first kid was very high maintenance: he was colicky, and would stick his fingers down his throat and vomit if he didn’t get his way. It is stressful but wonderful, adds depth to a relationship, and makes us grow as people.”

Malkie: “It gives us a future. Before we had kids we were on our own schedule. Now the kids are our priority.”

Both: “We’re absolutely glad we’re a couple and have no regrets.”

Mindi: “Our friends are all lesbian couples with kids who grew up traditional. There are very few non-Jews.”

Malkie: “Most of our friends have kids.”

Mindi: “It’s hard to socialize without the kids.

“Yes, there is a distinction between spirituality and religion. Religion is more seasonal, involves rituals and gives them meaning.”

Malkie: “I don’t understand what people mean when they say they’re spiritual. Nature doesn’t nurture my spirit. Acts of kindness are spiritual. New age isn’t my definition of spiritual. Religion is being part of a generational continuum. Thus there is a spiritual dimension to our partnership – putting God out in the world.”

Mindi: “Our relationship pushes us to be better people than if we didn’t have each other to contend with.”

Malkie: “I agree.”

Mindi: “We help each other live this lifetime and be the best people we can be.”

Malkie: “It impacts us knowing we’re part of something larger than just the two of us. And that might shape some of our decisions. But our partnership is not comparable to our relationship with the Jewish people and with God. Our connection with each other is a choice; our connection to the Jewish people and to God is a given.”

Mindi: “Judaism has been connected to us longer than our partnership.”

Malkie: “Our Jewish practices are a choice, but our connection to Judaism is not a choice.”

Mindi: “My family didn’t handle our partnership well until we had children. That made it relatable.”

Malkie: “My mother was accepting. My dad was already very ill and unaware. I have no relationship with my brother.”

Mindi: “I’m happy I had a religious education. I wish it wasn’t so fear based.”

Malkie: “I’m also glad and wish it were less fear based. I wish it had been open for discussion more rather than this is how things are and don’t question. Mindi is more ritual-oriented, and I question more. Mindi does things because they feel like home. I’m more the student. She has no interest in continuing her Jewish education. Mindi gives the kids a sense of tradition and continuity. To me it’s more important not to mix text and midrash. We’re both pretty religious but in different ways. Do you know the pot roast joke? A little girl sees her older sister preparing a pot roast and asks, ‘Why do you cut the ends off the pot roast before putting it in the roasting pan?’ Her sister replies, ‘Because that’s the way mom does it.’ She asks her mom the same question and gets the same answer. Likewise her grandmother says that her mom did it that way. Finally the little girl asks her great-grandmother and she tells her, ‘Because my roasting pan was too small.’ Mindi cuts the ends off without asking why; I ask why.”

Mindi: “Malkie has no warm fuzzy memories having grown up Chasidic. I expose them to gefilte fish Judaism, such as Fiddler on the Roof. We want them to be knowledgeable so they have a basis to make their own choices. We’ll be sad if they chose not to do anything. We hope they feel connected to the Jewish community.”

Malkie: “That they find meaning, what they’re good at, a loving relationship, and to be happy. And to be part of a Jewish community.”

Mindi: “If marriage means you’re committed to each other we’re for it. We want the benefits and legal protection when it becomes possible.”

Malkie: “We want a ceremony but not a wedding. I’m a lot more comfortable saying “my partner” than my wife, because I don’t want to be a wife.”

Mindi: “I like calling you my wife.”

Malkie: “Because you like traditional roles. Mindi’s religious experience was joyful, and mine was all about rules, not about joy, but doing things right. Mindi has fond memories, and I don’t. For her it’s about carrying on, and for me it’s about creating new.”

Mindi: “I grew up without rules. When my mom died I sat shiva and we had a memorial service that was both traditional and creative. Mom was a party planner, so the memorial service was an ice cream social, yet the songs and stories were all Jewish. It was both authentic and original.”

Malkie: “I believe nothing is random. We don’t understand why, but there must be a reason. It’s comforting to believe. Other than that I wallow – I withdraw. Mindi gets social and I don’t.”

Mindi: “The support of friends, community, and our rabbi have helped in times of crises more than faith. Malkie had a miscarriage, and our rabbi called and came. She read to us from a book. We turned to her rather than to God, but it was still a Jewish place to turn.”

Malkie: “I want Mindi to stick up for me.”

Mindy: “And I want to still have a relationship with my brother.”

Malkie: “We’re leading a very Jewish life, and we’ve worked at our practices and beliefs. I’m OK with doing more, and Mindi has a problem with doing less.

“I think we have a good, warm and respectful partnership. Jewishness has a lot to do with it. We grew up with the same ideas of what is proper and shameful. The Jewish concept of modesty is still important to us.”

Mindi: “It’s satisfying and successful and feels right. But I don’t think Jewishness uniquely has anything to do with it. I’m sure there are people from other cultures just like us. We’re just good people. Our home is the center of everything, and that’s where the energy is focused.”

Malkie: “Nurturing ourselves as a couple and our community are very important to us: to do our share, to be honest, and to live with integrity. There is a sanity about our partnership, our family, and our persons.”