Keith and Cindy Hamada

Interview

Keith Hamada, food company CFO, 38

Hometown: Queens, NY

Cindy Hamada, Lawyer, 37

Hometown: Midwood, Brooklyn, NY

Current residence: West Hempstead, Nassau County, NY

Date of interview: November 4, 2007

Cindy: “We met on a blind date. It was my thirtieth blind date and Keith’s first. My mom’s friend was a friend of Keith’s mom; they had gone to school together. She called and told his mom, “I have a girl for Keith.” Keith had never been on a blind date before and didn’t want to go. He was seeing someone else.”

Keith: “I was, but it wasn’t a serious relationship. It’s funny; I was on the phone with this other girl and got a call waiting from my mom’s friend. She asked if I would go out with Cindy, and to please my mom and her friend I agreed. I knew from the minute I opened the door and saw Cindy there, I knew I was going to marry her, or at least I knew there was a lot of potential.”

Cindy: “I didn’t want to go out on another blind date. This was my third blind date that week. My reaction was similar; as soon as I saw him I knew there was something there. It was a good first date. This was May 1992. We kept going out and broke up twice, once in August and again in November. There’s a lot of pressure in our Orthodox world to know where things are going, and I was old already by the standards of our world; I was 22, and most of the people in my circle were married already.

Keith: “I don’t think I was ready for a serious relationship.”

Cindy: “We got back together after our second break-up in November, and then we got engaged in February and married in August 1993. The entire courtship was a little over a year. It was a normal courtship. The initial blind date wasn’t the kind where you investigate and find out everything there is to know about the other one’s family as some people in our world do. It was normal dating: movies, comedy clubs, getting together with friends. We didn’t have sex before marriage, but we fooled around and were physical with each other. It was a normal Modern Orthodox courtship. I was one month shy of 23 when we got married, and Keith was 24.

“The words of the vow connect us to the past and to the future. They are words that have been used and will be used and link us in the chain of Judaism to where we’re going, growing, and connect us to where our kids will be going.”

Keith: “It’s ceremonial, what we say when we get married, the way the gentiles say ‘I do.’”

Cindy: “I don’t interpret the words ‘consecrated unto me’ as sexist. I think reciprocity is implied, even though in Orthodox ceremonies the bride doesn’t say it back.”

“I believe in the concept of Bashert.”

Keith: “So do I.”

Cindy: “I think there could be more than one out there for you, and that doesn’t take anything away from Keith—I hope he lives to 120. I went out with so many people, but he’s the one.”

Keith: “My parents have a mutual respect, as do Cindy and I. We both contribute to the household, as did they; they both worked. Our childrearing views are different from theirs; Cindy and I share the same child-rearing views. My parents love each other, as Cindy and I do.”

Cindy: “I also grew up seeing both parents work, and they also respect each other. But my father was very much the man: he didn’t do anything in the house, he didn’t help; my mother did everything. Keith isn’t like that. My father’s big job on a Shabbat dinner was to clear the soda bottles from the table; that was his contribution to the house. He didn’t do very much. God forbid my mother should die—she should live to 120—my father would be at a complete loss; he wouldn’t know where anything is: which are the meat dishes, which are the dairy dishes. He grew up in America; it’s not as if he grew up in Europe with an old world mentality. That, for lack of a better word, is how my mother trained him. Keith’s parents trained him to help and take responsibility at home. I remember when we were dating seeing him and his father cooking and helping. That was like a totally novel thing for me. I love my dad, but that’s not the way their relationship operates. My father would come home, and there would be a meal on the table. It was expected. My mother now regrets not having trained him. Me, I’m not a domestic creature; I don’t usually cook. I have a more modern attitude. Keith’s a big boy; if he wants something to eat he can cook it himself. We don’t really cook.”

Keith: “We both work very hard. Dinner is secondary.”

Cindy: “The baby sitter feeds the kids dinner. I don’t get home until 6:45. Keith gets home 8 or 8:30. I have fond memories of family dinners growing up with my parents; we would sit and discuss the day’s events. We don’t do that. Not at this stage of our lives. We don’t have family dinners. Shabbat and holidays, that’s it. That concept has totally changed.”

Keith: “And we’ve only started doing that recently now that the kids are older.

“My parents were home at dinner time. My dad was a professor, and my mom was a teacher.”

Cindy: “My parents were home too. They were both city workers. Mom was a caseworker, and dad was a civil servant in the Human Resources Administration. They worked nine to five jobs. And my mom as a caseworker was always home. My dad would get home around 5:30 or 6. And though we were Orthodox they were open minded, questioned and discussed everything, and encouraged me to question too.

Keith: “My parents followed the line and were theologically much more traditional. I rebelled and became less religious. Cindy didn’t feel as much of a need to rebel. We compromise for the sake of the kids.”

Cindy: “And for me. Keith would be much less religious were it not for the kids and me.”

Keith: “A lot of the things we do are for the kids. When they grow up they can decide for themselves.”

Cindy: “Considering that I came from the more skeptical background I feel less of a need to question; I just do it. When we have disagreements Keith will say he’ll do it for the kids. I feel I am the more religious one, and I feel the burden of keeping our kids in touch with that. I want them in that cocooned environment, though it costs $33K per year for the three girls’ tuition.”

Keith: “The high tuition is a form of birth control. It limits the size of families.

Cindy: “I’ve reduced my level of observance because of Keith. We eat out at non-kosher restaurants (but we only order fish, pasta, or salad) and leave the television on Friday nights. Not that I object, but I never would have thought to do that. Keith grew up with parents as authority figures. I grew up with parents as friends. I’m much freer with our kids than Keith is. I acknowledge that my girls might fool around with boys before they are married. So they’ll lie to you and tell the truth to me.”

Keith: “I’m aware that certain things may happen but right now prefer not to think about what my daughters might do when they’re older. There’s a certain amount of respect children must show a parent and vice versa. I don’t think it’s mutually exclusive to be a parent and a friend. I don’t think they’ll hide things from either of us. You were the golden child and the oldest of your siblings. I was the youngest and a troublemaker. My parents had to be strict.

“Being Jewish ties me to my family and community, not so much to God. The moral code has molded my Jewishness and provides me with certain boundaries and a community that shares my beliefs.”

Cindy: “I agree. We live in a community that shares our values and boundaries. I also have a relationship with God, and I feel I can talk to Him and get mad at Him when things don’t go well. I don’t know if it’s particularly Jewish, but I feel a certain sense of spirituality.”

Keith: “Being Jewish puts us in this community and the kids in Yeshiva.”

Cindy: “The Jewish calendar and the synagogue shape our sense of time. It moves our sense of Jewishness into the foreground.”

Keith: “Except when dealing with non-Jews. We don’t push it to the foreground in the work or gentile world.”

Cindy: “Keith doesn’t wear his yarmulkah at work. I don’t cover my hair.”

Keith: “Everything we do revolves around the fact that we are Jewish.”

Cindy: “It’s a framework.”

Keith: “It determines where we live, what we eat.”

Cindy: “Our spending priorities. Selecting the neighborhood. Most of our friends are just like us.”

Keith: “Our social life revolves around the synagogue.”

Cindy: “In terms of how I dress, I’m more bohemian than I used to be, and Keith likes that. I have red and blond stripes in my hair. I have a nose ring. He brought out the artsy side of me.”

Keith: “It’s because of the kinds of homes we come from. Mine was straight as an arrow.”

Cindy: “Mine was not.”

Keith: “We don’t really discuss politics.”

Cindy: “You’re a Republican and I am a Democrat.”

Keith: “You’re not a real Democrat.”

Cindy: “I’m more liberal than you are, more accepting of other lifestyles.”

Keith: “I accept other life styles. I just don’t understand them.”

Cindy: “I’m pro-choice; you’re not. I’m anti-death penalty; you’re not. We’re both very pro-Israel. I believe that a gay couple can raise kids perfectly well. I vote on two issues: Israel and pro-choice.”

Keith: “I vote on one issue, Israel. I like gay people. It confuses me and certainly goes against our religion. We have friends who are a lesbian couple. I just don’t understand how and why a woman would be attracted to another woman or a man to another man. I’m not homophobic; I just don’t get it.”

Cindy: “That’s more of your straight laced background coming out.

“We became friends and then fell in love.”

Keith: “No, we fell in love and became friends. Our personalities and senses of humor are similar though our interests differ. We would still be friends if we weren’t married.”

Cindy: “I hope so.

Keith: “Infidelity never enters our thoughts. It’s not even an option.”

Cindy: “We’re married and we love each other and that’s it. I don’t have feelings of jealousy or temptation. We each have friends of the opposite sex.”

Keith: “Some of my closest friends are women from before we were married. That’s just the way it has always been. When Cindy was in law school I went out with a woman friend, because Cindy was studying.”

Cindy: “I used to call her the surrogate wife. I would say, ‘Go out with the surrogate wife.’ We were both very comfortable with it. We can look at other people and say they’re good looking, but it doesn’t mean we’ve going to do anything. It’s not even an issue.”

Keith: “I earn more, but not considerably more that I think of myself as the main breadwinner.”

Cindy: “I do think of Keith as the main breadwinner.”

Keith: “You make a very good living.”

Cindy: “I do make a good living, but because he’s a man I think Keith should be the main breadwinner and should earn more, and he is the main breadwinner. And I feel that my domain--I mean I work, I’m a professional person--I‘m in charge of the house. I’m in charge of the kids and their schedules. I know where everyone is and is supposed to be.

“I work four days a week from 8:30 am to 6:15 pm, which is considered part-time for a lawyer. But most Fridays I go in; even though it’s officially my day off, and I don’t have to go in, I do. So officially I’m a part-time lawyer. I work fifteen minutes from home, and I take the primary parental role. Keith has his breadwinner role, I have my professional role—my money does contribute to the household--and I then have my role as the mommy. And Keith is a great father. He’s a good father and husband and he is involved, but I’m the primary. I’m the one who sees that the homework is done every night. If Keith gets home early he helps.”

Keith: “When I get home I take over.”

Cindy: “Because I’ve already had it. But I’m the one who oversees the kids, and if they have a class trip I have to make lunch. I oversee their schedules and appointments.”

Keith: “Cindy is the primary parent. I mind the finances.”

Cindy: “But I’m aware of the finances.”

Keith: “She’s very involved in the finances and I’m very involved with the kids. I’m primary with the finances and vice versa. We’re both involved in every aspect. But we have a babysitter and a cleaning lady. We fill in as needed.”

“We had a lot of trouble having children—all three daughters, the nine year old and the seven year old twins, are IVF kids. Our relationship changed during that period rather than after having kids. That tested our relationship and made it stronger.”

Cindy: “I felt guilt, and our relationship with God changed. Keith became more religious; he reconnected with a rabbi from high school. He started going to shul every morning. It helped him in his religion and it hurt me; I was pissed. I used to pray every day and I stopped, because I felt me prayers weren’t being answered. I became more distant from religion, because I was angry with God. But as a couple we came out of it stronger. When you go through something bad and come out ahead you come out stronger.

“When we were trying to have kids sex wasn’t fun anymore. It was sex to have kids.”

Keith: “It became very clinical. That part of it tested our relationship. Our personal sex life was pushed aside for the goal of having children.”

Cindy: “And after we had kids our sex life was affected. We’ve been married 14 years. I’m tired. Now it’s not as frequent as it used to be. By the time I get into bed at night after a long day of dealing with the kids more often than not the only thing on my mind is going to sleep. Not that we never have sex, but it’s certainly less than before.”

Keith: “In that respect we’re no different than any other couple with two jobs and three kids. It’s normal.”

“Religion is organized and spirituality is personal.”

Cindy: “There are things I do in my marriage because of the religion, such as lighting Shabbis candles, not necessarily because of spirituality. It’s also part of a tradition that is the strength of our religion—the chain that connects us to the past. If God plays a role in that tradition then some spirituality is there. I don’t see His presence there in my marriage. I feel I have a relationship with the Jewish people and with God, and some of that relationship comes through with my relationship with my spouse because I’m observant, and I do certain things, and I do those things because I’m part of the Jewish people and because I believe in God. It’s all interconnected.”

Keith: “I’ve never questioned my feelings for Cindy, but I certainly have with God. Notwithstanding whatever problems I have with God I’m completely committed to the Jewish people, and in that sense there’s a correlation to my commitment to Cindy. I would never cut my ties to the Jewish people and likewise there’s no one else I want to be with than Cindy.”

Cindy: “My relationships with the Jewish people and God predate and are independent of my relationship with Keith.”

Keith: “I wish health, prosperity, and happiness for my children.”

Cindy: “To be good people. I hope they can make their own decisions. I’d like them to continue in the Jewish faith and to continue the traditions we’ve given to them and our parents have given to us. I like that to continue, and that’s part of the reason we’re sending them to a yeshiva and raising them the way we’re raising them. But I don’t want them to be robots. I want them to think for themselves, and question and come to their own conclusions. That’s not to say that if they chose not to be religious I wouldn’t be upset; I probably would be. But I want them to make that decision for themselves based on their own thought processes and their own questioning.”

“At times of loss or disappointment I’ll get angry with God, but I also pray. I take it out on God, and then I’ll ask for forgiveness and help.”

Keith: “My coping does not have a religious basis. Maybe at one time it did, but now it doesn’t. I don’t think God cares enough to mold my life one way or another.”

Cindy: “And I think that’s horrible, and I’ve had this conversation with Keith. How can you say God doesn’t care?”

Keith: “Because there are bigger issues at play than if something good or bad happens to me. I do believe in God, but I don’t think He gets involved in everything that happens to people. And no one can argue with me one way or the other, because no one knows. It’s purely conjecture.”

Cindy: “So in difficult times you don’t think there is Someone you can reach out to?”

Keith: “I’m not saying mine is an enviable position. I just don’t know. I don’t know. Do I find myself at times speaking out to Someone? I don’t know.

Cindy: “We both know our parents would be there for us if we needed them. They’re a huge presence in our lives. Judaism stresses family, and we have strong families. There is not one holiday that we don’t have relatives in this house.”

Keith: “We have a fundamentally great relationship, but I don’t think Judaism has much to do with it.”

Cindy: “We respect each other and each other’s opinions, and we each have the freedom to be individuals.”

Keith: “I think our relationship is stronger than it was in the past.”

Cindy: “We’ve been tested.”

Keith: “Our relationship is rock solid. Yes, we have disagreements, but that makes our life richer. Our relationship is secular. My love for you is a human thing.”