Moms
Part 2
From UrbanBaby
http://www.urbanbaby.com/talk/posts/54073918
[Q] “I was looking into this because their toddler and preschool programs seem really ideal for my DCs but I posted on here a couple of days ago and some of the responses really made me concerned.”
[A1] “...Personally I would highly recommend Waldorf education, especially preschool.”*
[A2] “We have some very thoughtful friends whose kids have all gone through it and they spoke so glowingly that I did some research and took DD to a baby program at our local Waldorf school. For us, way too wacky and pseudo-religious. If you're interested look into the beliefs of Steiner and the principles of anthroposophy....”
[A3] “Education, no. Salad, yes!”
[A4] “If I want my kids to learn that gnomes are real I'll send 'em to Disney.”
[A5] “Einstein said that if want your children to be intelligent tell them fairy tales, if you want them to be brilliant tell them more fairy stories”*
[A6] “Disney? That is part of the problem with our children. Too much media! Fostering imagination and creativity should be what we want for our children, not Disney. <sigh>”*
[A7] “My kids love it. I feel it helps nurture their creativity, which to me is the most important thing a child can learn.”*
[A8] “A steiner education is a comprehensive classical education that takes into account and seeks to develop the whole person. Hwn the children are small they are encouraged to be children to create little environments (yes with gnomes) that they can safely play in — imagination and role play is encouraged....”*
[A9] “The Waldorf school on 79th Street was just too weird for us and we didn't fill out the application.“
[A10] “My child has flourished in his seven years (and counting) of Waldorf education. 'Weird' and 'wacky'? Yes, in today's society, I suppose the school's connection to the earth, to the soul and spirit (in largely non-religious ways), seems a bit odd....”*
[A11] “IMHO, Steiner is a victim of its own educational theory. Telling 21st century parents that their children can't study a map because until age ___ a child is incapable of understanding a separate place is simply wacky. True story — and no other word for it.
[A12] “After meeting graduates from a Waldorf school, I was amazed! They can hold a conversation with an adult, look me in the eyes, have respect, are confident, have a greater sense of community, are creative and well educated...."*
* “WARNING: It is quite likely that one person posted the positive posts here. The Anthroposophists are so deceitful that they actually have people on the lookout for posts like this to take over. One of them may have started this thread just to be able to respond to it. YES! do your homework...but dig A LOT deeper than what any of the waldorf schools will tell you. It's an esoteric new age cult.”
The following is from a discussion at The Ethereal Kiosk
early in 2013
http://zooey.wordpress.com/2013/01/02/swsf-and-the-mumsnet-threats/
SWSF AND THE MUMSNET THREATS
January 2, 2013 · by alicia hamberg · in the bee
Perhaps now that the Steiner Waldorf School Fellowship, too, has become more active on the internet and in social media, it will be possible to get a reaction to the old threat made by Sune Nordwall [an active, paid Swedish Waldorf proponent] in the organisation’s name. In a recent thread, which resurrected an old and dreadful topic, Melanie [a Waldorf critic] wrote:
In his correspondence with parent forum mumsnet he suggested that he was poised to:
“ask Percy Bratt of Bratt and Feinsilber in Sweden to contact you in cooperation with the legal representatives of The Steiner Waldorf Schools Fellowship [SWSF] in the UK and Ireland (http://www.steinerwaldorf.org/index.html)”
and this was particularly aimed at silencing an ex-Steiner parent who was publishing ‘libel’ – in other words quoting Steiner in his own words in a way that made supporters of Steiner schools in the UK very uncomfortable.
The SWSF have never denied that their ‘legal representatives’ were involved. Neither has Sune.
It clearly wasn’t something that happened once — the forum, according to one of its owners, got legal threats pretty much daily during this time period when they still allowed negative comments on Steiner education, and this threat must have been representative (presumably, Sune Nordwall was behind many of the other threats too). What the situation is like now, I do not know; to my knowledge, when someone new starts a discussion about Steiner schools, they’re reminded, by other members, that they’re not allowed to write negative things. (Perhaps those who follow the forum can fill me in.) I do know that practically everyone who had posted negative comments on Steiner education on the forum was banned. Lots of comments were deleted. Entire threads were deleted. What Sune did at Mumsnet was taking advantage of the legal situation in the UK — a much criticized and debated situation where extreme libel laws stifle debate in an unhealthy way. The SWSF, too, has indicated in the past that if critics ‘go too far’, the movement will take action — against whom or for what remained unclear, but it wasn’t difficult to understand who was the target of the threat (Melanie Byng and David Colquhoun for the posts on his blog). It appears that they have since decided it’s better not to make worse fools of themselves, because nothing more has been said about this.
Perhaps now that the SWSF has more of a presence on the internet — both tweeting and facebooking — it might possible to get them to express an opinion about the old Mumsnet threats. I know it’s been many years, many years of stifled debate on one of the most important internet forums for education discussions in the UK.
Was the SWSF ever behind the threats made by Sune Nordwall towards Mumsnet? Unless told otherwise, we have to assume they were — the information Sune gave was pretty detailed, Bratt and Feinsilber, in Sweden, representing, presumably, not only Sune but also the Swedish Waldorf Federation, would contact the forum in cooperation with the SWSF through its legal representative.
What is the position of the SWSF today? Does the SWSF want debate to be stifled? Does the SWSF still stand behind such threats, if they ever did?
A related question is what the Steiner schools think of this. The SWSF is, after all, supposed to organise and represent them.
(By the way — I don’t have a beef with Mumsnet for deciding they don’t want discussions about Steiner education in their education forums. It’s their forum, and their decision; it is the actions of the waldorf movement, which led to the decision, that bother me. And I think it’s a pity that the most influential web forum for parents in the UK can’t allow this one particular educational movement to be discussed critically — especially since the movement is trying to expand and is in the process of obtaining state funding for more and more schools. However, it hardly matters one iota to me personally — I’m not getting involved in online discussions of that kind ever again.)
◊
Melanie · January 2, 2013 - 11:39 pm ·
Thank you for highlighting this, Alicia. What was Sune doing ‘monitoring’ the situation in England? (With the support of the Swedish Waldorf Schools Federation).
You now have to log in to the forum to read ‘talk’ – anyone can join. The latest mention of Steiner is this, dated Jan 1st 2013:
“I am also lucky to not have to worry about school fees and also to not have any baggage attached to going to any sort of school bar religious or cult (the Steiners) so can look at schools based on what they offer my child.”
I’d say this is fairly representative of the attitude on the forum – no one has responded.
There’s a recent thread on the Edinburgh Steiner School, the last post includes:
"…personally I have problems with the whole Steiner philosophy. Not sure whether the idea of karma (meaning if you are bullied, you are getting what is coming to you and why should someone interfere with that) has to do with the bullying stories…"
From what I can see people are openly discussing Steiner ed and no one is telling them they can’t – which is a positive sign. Sune did not succeed, in fact he probably made things worse for the movement. When you behave like the representative of a cult that’s exactly how parents will perceive you, even if it takes a little while to work out what’s going on.
Here is a message posted at mothering.com in March, 2013
http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1377068/help-waldorf-1st-grade-out-of-control
I am so disappointed. I thought Waldorf would be a great experience for my daughter. It is, EXCEPT
1. 5 kids in the class are out of control, constantly interrupting, hitting, yelling. Stealing crayons & flutes from other children's desks, etc. The main bully had another child restrain a third child in the boys bathroom so he could punch him — one of 1000 examples.
2. The teacher says that the rowdy kids "need held" and my dau. needs to be stronger.
3. The teacher says the bullies are really improving so much since September, that should make all of us parents content.
4. The school will not acknowledge that there are any problems.
5. 4/5 of the bullies are from rich families.
It is too late to apply to other schools for next fall. I am so depressed. When I googled "waldorf bullying" i lost my mind. I had no idea it was like this.
How can it be OK to tolerate so much chaos? Those 5 kids take up 70% of the teacher's time.
[For commentary on this message,
see the Waldorf Watch Annex.]
The following letter was posted on the waldorf-critics list
in 1997 and reposted in 2013
[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waldorf-critics/message/25574];
I have added a few footnotes. — R.R.
I spoke with an old friend the other day who had found herself upset all over again over events that happened in the [Waldorf] school our children had once been in. News items about cults had opened up old wounds for her.
We discussed a number of incidents, and it made me see that it's time to mention some of them here. She is considering how much she can tell about other friends' experiences without hurting anyone — and how much she feels o.k. telling about her own family's. She will be thinking about it and talking it over with her husband this next week.
At the time our children were at the school, there were many unsettling incidents that happened on the playground in the unsupervised environment. Little boys were being beaten up, and bullying was seriously out of control. Children would come home worried and upset. Some parents were closer to what was going on than others, and tried unsuccessfully to convince the teachers to supervise the playground. There was rarely a teacher out there. It was especially disturbing in light of the fact that the boys being beaten up were not the kind of children who would ordinarily be involved in fighting or bringing on that kind of negative attention.
An anxious parent spoke to a teacher who told her that those children were dealing with "past life karma" they needed to work out together. [1] The same parent finally called a member of the College [2] (there is a specific protocol you are supposed to follow in filing complaints) and told him she had observed children climbing the (high) play structure on stilts, children dragging other children around by ropes, children bullying and using foul language — but no teachers supervising. The teacher answered, "You are not an initiate [3], and therefore you cannot understand the kind of energies we're dealing with here." When the stunned parent reported this back to another teacher, she was met with wide eyes, "He told you THAT?" The implication was that he had seriously erred in letting a cat out of a bag. [4]
One of the concerns some parents had was that their little girls were continually having their dresses pulled up by boys. This was very disturbing to the girls. When they screamed, it was only the girls who were reprimanded for causing a disturbance. Finally a "Friday Is Skirts Up" policy was started by a teacher so as to placate everyone — that way the girls could have Monday thru Thursday as days their skirts were not to be pulled up. The girls, as you might imagine, were not amused. I don't remember the outcome, but I would hope it was finally handled after one little girl angrily proposed a "Boys Pants Down Day."
There was a lot of parent time and energy that went into trying to make the playground a safe place, but the teachers never seemed to share the concern. One parent who dropped out ran into a parent (an Anthroposophist) the following fall who had stayed. The other parent, who had formerly been warm and friendly, was aloof, and commented "Oh....it's just so lovely and peaceful there this year. Everyone who had problems with the school is gone, and those left are people who really *want* to be there." She was someone who had not cared to look at any of the problems that were being brought up. It was back to Business As Usual until the next batch of trouble making parents would arrive in a year or two.
The majority of people I've known who send their children to Waldorf schools have decided that the idea of public school is unthinkable. This makes them feel that they have to hang in and make it work or try to "trust" and let it be. I got so tired of hearing the word "trust" mouthed as if it were some kind virtue that separated the open and enlightened from the rabble.
A further complication is that many parents find such "community" around the campus, the wonderful festivals [5], and all that goes with being "Waldorf parents." This makes them very reluctant to see problems, to make waves — or to listen to troublemakers.
I used to regularly hear one parent or another discuss how miserable their child was for one reason or another, but they would do little or nothing to get the child out of the damaging situation. After appealing unsuccessfully to the teacher and then to the College, the child would stay in the situation.
Those particular parents were so full of their own neediness and longing for those beautiful pastel rooms, beeswax crayon drawings, and all the rest, that their children were made to stay there as a vehicle for their parents' access — the mothers especially. I mentioned this to several of them *after* they finally took their children out.
In every case, I was met with the sheepish acknowledgment that it was exactly what they were doing. They hadn't realized it at the time, and were surprised to hear that I had been observing it all along. In turn, I was surprised to hear that they had not been aware of what seemed so obvious all the times I saw them peering so longingly into the beautiful cloistered classrooms. [6] The few parents did get into those classrooms, by the way, were those few who were needed to teach a handicraft like knitting. This does not mean to imply that all children are unhappy in [Waldorf schools]! Many are perfectly happy there. I'm just making the point that some parents feel so personally fulfilled in the cultlike community that they are able to ignore or deny what they see, even when it affects their own children. The friend I spoke with yesterday recalled how she had been "shunned" after finally leaving the school. It had been painful enough to let go of her dream, but then being cut off from the community she that meant so much to her made it that much worse.
The [Waldorf] system is essentially set up in such a way that the teachers are responsible and accountable only to themselves to interpret Anthroposophy and apply it to the schools, without interference, in whatever way they choose.
◊
[1] Karma and reincarnation are key beliefs in the Waldorf belief system, Anthroposophy.
[2] At many Waldorf schools, the central committee — the seat of power, occupied by senior faculty members — is called the College of Teachers.
[3] Anthroposophists consider themselves to be occult initiates, privy to secret spiritual knowledge. [See, e.g., "Inside Scoop".]
[4] Waldorf schools generally keep many secrets from outsiders, including students' parents. [See "Secrets".]
[5] These are often disguised religious observances. [See "Magical Arts".]
[6] Waldorf schools often strive to keep parents and others out, barring unsupervised visits. The faculty seeks freedom to proceed as their beliefs dictate, with no outside interference. [See, e.g., "Faculty Meetings" and "Visits".]
— R.R.
Here is a pair of comments from a discussion labeled
"Waldorf Schools and ADHD" at ADDConnect
http://connect.additudemag.com/groups/topic/Waldorf_Schools_and_ADHD/
"We had our son in a Waldorf School and had plan[ned] to raise him with that education. We were on a waiting list for 2 years and it worked out that he could start in his Kindergarten year. We ended up pulling him out halfway through the year. It was a devastating experience for all of us. The main issue is that they do everything through the rhythm of the day — routines are cued non-verbally by the teacher as she starts her day and so it goes the entire day. The concept is sound but a child that needs to be redirected or to transition with ‘warnings’ it doesn't work out so well. They would try to redirect him by taking his hand which resulted in him not understanding and often times a struggle would [ensue] simply because he had no clue what was going on. Then there comes the issue with wearing layers, changing clothes (they go out in every kind of weather regardless), putting their wooly slippers on, etc. Everything was a struggle and he was labeled a difficult child and every suggestion we had to help him was ignored with ‘we do not really understand what he needs.’ We tried their Eurythmy Classes and there too he had difficulty with focus they said. So much for letting a child be and the imagination of free play. It began causing him stress and then there are the other kids there that just don't get it. These are just a few examples and I have many others. We are friends with people that have been raised in Waldorf Schools and the young adults that graduate are beautiful rounded people. Steiner was a brilliant man and his ability to understand the spirit, mind and body development of children is short of genius.* However, we found unstructured environments are detrimental to our son. We also tried several other private schools and soon realized that we would never be able to get what we needed for him to thrive. We finally decided to move to an awesome public school district and he is thriving and we have all of the services and staff needed to help him."
◊
* A key point to note is that this parent — like many who have unfortunate Waldorf experiences — believes in the Waldorf system and greatly respects Rudolf Steiner. Favoring Waldorf and Steiner does not protect a family from the adverse effects of choosing Waldorf education. Indeed, making the error of believing in Waldorf and Steiner may simply set up a family for the problems that Waldorf often inflicts. As for whether Steiner had any real insight into the "spirit, mind and body of children," see, e.g., "Oh Humanity". — R.R.
◊
"We kept our son at a Waldorf school for way, way too long because we didn't realize he had ADD/ADHD. All the signs were there in the classroom and his class teacher never once mentioned the possibility to us. Instead she shamed, punished and took his disrespect personally. Ultimately she made it more about her than him. We were so very disappointed in this school. We feel that so much of what they claim to stand for is untrue. I very much regret choosing a Waldorf school for my son. I think it did him a great disservice. It is one of my biggest mistakes as a parent. A lot of time has been lost and we are desperately trying to work things out now."
Here are excerpts from a letter
posted on the waldorf-critics list in 2017
[https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/waldorf-critics/conversations/messages/31662]
[W]e have been involved in 4 Waldorf schools in the United States. At all four Waldorf schools...we have experienced subtle racism and white supremacy viewpoints weaved into the curriculum...
...I honestly didn't really fully wake up to this reality until we arrived at [Waldorf School X] so my daughter could join the 6th grade class there this past August. We have always had issues around the discipline styles used by teachers at Waldorf schools and definitely noticed that the curriculum was mostly Euro-centric but 6th grade brought up diversity and historical inaccuracy issues that were disturbing and seemed to be taught without any critical thinking whatsoever. We raised our concerns with the teacher and the faculty chair (in accordance with the schools "Direct Communication Practice" outlined in their Parent Handbook)...
Our concerns with the curriculum included a poem recited by the 7th grade at the Middle School Concert about Christopher Columbus "discovering" America, the issue of slavery being used for humor in the 6th grade play, and the controversy around the hostile depiction of Judaism in the book "The Bronze Bow" which was recently assigned as a reader to the 6th grade class. We were also interested in talking to the school staff about establishing a Diversity Committee since there is no such effort currently on-going at the school. There were other issues we raised as well around the 6th grade teacher talking negatively about our daughter to other students as well as the eurythmy teacher restraining my child's hands when she was fidgeting. We were bringing up all of these concerns with the teacher via email...
My husband and I met with the Interim School Administrator and the Chair of the Board just yesterday (this was our first meeting ever with these two people at the school) and they informed us that our daughter was being dismissed from the school effectively immediately. I'm just wondering if anyone else has ever experienced such treatment from the administration of a Waldorf school for simply raising concerns with the school staff? And does anyone know a lawyer we could talk to about the way [Waldorf School X] has conducted themselves toward us?
Here is an item from
the Waldorf Watch News:
REELING AWAY
FROM WALDORF
From time to time, stunned and disillusioned parents report their experiences at Waldorf schools. Here are excerpts from such a report posted yesterday — Jan. 20, 2018. I have done a little light editing for clarity (my annoying habit as an old English teacher).
Hello,
My son attended [X] Waldorf Nursery school for 3 years of preschool. I was attracted to it for the nature, art and play-based aspects. I also appreciated what I thought was non-religious spirituality ... We left a couple of months early in his 3rd year due to safety concerns and learning more about the Waldorf founder Rudolf Steiner's background. When I first researched the school I learned nothing concerning these things. I've since learned that if one does not intentionally look for negative things on Waldorf, only positive, Waldorf-based sites show up online, some looking independent.
I was very involved [at the school] as a volunteer ... I was particularly thankful when my son was 2 that I could participate in the parent-child class which seemed in line with attachment parenting ... [I] later realized that was the beginning [of] "teaching" me as much as my son.
I learned of teachers believing [in] gnomes ... I cocked my head and did some research and was stunned, beginning with concern about them taking their reverence for nature beyond reality and how that could impact our son. Then learning of Steiner's involvement with the occult, and his racist statements (karmic hierarchy of souls from black to white) ... [I was] outright stupefied....
...I would have wanted to know these things before starting and so am posting them here so that other parents may research criticisms as well as information by pro-Waldorf and anthroposophy sites.
...Looking back...I see how rituals, communications, materials and activities seem to me all skillful means to indoctrinate my son and family ... Some particularly strange things in the last year indicate that [the Waldorf faculty] may have been trusting me more given my involvement and enthusiasm. While we did have many positive experiences at [the school] the information that came to light overshadowed and changed our understanding of the positive aspects far beyond what was acceptable to us.
[At this point, the writer gives a long list of specific problems at the school.]
People can have a wide range of parenting and spiritual beliefs. Transparency of those beliefs is critical for me to trust a school with my child. In my experience the school was not completely forthright with their beliefs. Some concerns & criticisms raised in waldorfwatch.com and other critical websites are consistent with my experience of Waldorf education ... Many concerning aspects were very subtle, [but] cumulatively and increasingly concerning issues arose, particularly in the last year.
[downloaded 1/21/2018 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/waldorf-critics/conversations/messages/31732]
◊
Waldorf Watch Response:
Different families sending their kids to different Waldorf schools may have very different experiences. Some children and their parents love the Waldorf schools in which they become involved.
Yet, undeniably, some families reel away from Waldorf stunned. The bizarre nature of Waldorf beliefs shocks many, and the day-to-day reality of life within the schools is often jarringly unlike the glowing images projected by Waldorf PR.
Disillusioned families often depart Waldorf schools quietly. They aren't looking to pick a fight with anyone — they just want to undo whatever damage their children suffered, and find a better school. But sometimes, fortunately, brave parents write the truth about their sojourns in the delusory Waldorf universe.
To delve more deeply into these matters, you should read the entire message posted at the Waldorf Critics discussion site — it is far longer than the excerpted version above. You may also want to examine "Moms", "Pops", and "Cautionary Tales".
— R.R.
