蔡明亮 Tsai Ming Liang

關於所有的自由——蔡明亮訪談

文／謝鎮逸

前往訪談地點的一路上下著大雨，車子最後停在疑似目的地的建屋，竟是被夾在一排民宅廢墟之間。進入屋內即被招待咖啡，等待受訪者的同時環顧四周，比起望見落地窗外的綠意庭院，更吸引我的倒是擺放著許多獎座的櫃子。有獅子塑像、有的是熊，當然還有幾隻奔躍之姿的馬匹。

為什麼會拍《黑眼圈》？為什麼蔡明亮要在這種地方拍這種電影？作品為什麼不在馬來西亞放映？為什麼沒回去馬來西亞生活？諸如此類可以想得到的雞肋問題，自然在我們的問題清單裡頭；但身經百戰的受訪者自然一眼看穿我們。

「你們都不用問我問題了，我現在就可以把全部事情告訴你。」

「如果我今天只是一個商業導演，拍大家愛看的商業電影，我可以在台灣或香港拍，你們也不會想要放映我的電影。為什麼你們想要放映《黑眼圈》？因為你們知道這部作品是特殊的，它是自由創作的結果。你們應該要問的是，為什麼蔡明亮沒有在馬來西亞創作？」

一部挨刀的電影

當時想說既然在馬來西亞拍了《黑眼圈》，蔡導決定試試看把它推上當地院線。一送審，想當然爾就是禁了。再送審第二次，並請他們說出被禁的理由，最後卻給出了八個荒謬至極的理由，包括「醜化馬來西亞」。

「所以我才決定將這件事情公開來讓大家來討論。後來重審的決定是要挨五刀，本來當然是不願意，但後來我還是決定讓它上。我當時想的是，這裡始終是這部片生產出來的地方，始終是我的國家。我是不是能為這個地方做點什麼貢獻？好啊，那就來上，就算剪成一分鐘我也要上。我就是要讓大家知道，你現在看的電影是被剪過的電影。」

後來就真的上了，不過也只有少數的幾個場次，而且規定只能在特定幾家偏僻的戲院。

「會因為如此覺得對這國家絕望了嗎？並沒有，她只是需要過程，而我回來就是要跟她對話。當我還什麼都不是的時候，我回來就只能是你社會裡頭的一份子、只能乖乖聽你的話；但當我足夠強大的時候，我回來了也沒要你聽我的，但我可以選擇做我自己。當你做自己的時候，才會發現你可以去的地方就不只有一個了。」

當時看著吉隆坡這座城市，最吸引蔡導的就是外勞。這些人是在馬來西亞急速發展時被引進來的窮人，從他們臉上也彷彿看見自身那種被困住的狀態，所以才決定拍他們。但後來很多學者表示失望，覺得為什麼電影沒談外勞的境況。

「但並不是拍外勞就是要去拍他們的問題，我拍他們就是因為他們也是人啊。我要講的就是人本身，他們的情慾等。我要拍馬來西亞，這些身處此地的人，自然就進來了。」

「既然我們都是馬來西亞人，我覺得我們應該來談談我們的環境。」

電影是有限度的娛樂

當時沒有所謂影展或電影節。2000年以前，蔡導有幾部電影在吉隆坡的一個影迷俱樂部做地下放映。用的是拷貝，在當時已算是很不得了的。第一是沒有經過審查；第二是輸入途徑。當時俱樂部成員去找台灣辦事處談，最後以文化活動之名將拷貝送進來。當時是在一間已經關閉的老戲院，連放了好幾天，期間大家還非常害怕會被檢舉、查水錶，但最後還是完成了。那是蔡導的作品第一次進入故土放映。

「記得當時我就跟俱樂部的朋友們說，馬來西亞最需要的就是一個電影節。這電影節不是為了一圖風光，而是辦給大馬的人民；給年輕人看到國外有那麼多電影，不只是那些院線電影而已。就大馬影視產業來說，我從小都是看商業片長大的，坦白說也沒什麼好選擇的。電影常常在餵養著有限度的娛樂，而這個限度就是國家，以及片商決定要給你看多少。所以我們的觀影口味是偏食的，但以前沒有網絡，大家也都沒辦法。但當哪一天看到一些不一樣的電影時，你就會嘗試繼續再看一些，慢慢地，你就會漸漸遠離那些千篇一律的娛樂片，這時你才會開始透過這些不一樣的電影而看到真實存在的世界。」

「有些人庸庸碌碌過一生，想看電影就只會看娛樂片，這是無法改變生命的。如同寶萊塢電影，每年生產千餘部拍給窮人看的電影，都是一樣的歌舞片，大家進戲院享受歡愉短暫的幾個小時，看完出來依舊不會翻身，因為歌舞片的內容幾乎都沒有窮人。所以如果馬來西亞電影還一直在拍娛樂片，大概也無法改變這個社會。但改變始終不容易，它需要一直做一直做，而且通常作出改變的人也都會被排除在人群之外。」

自由創作的動能

對於我們剛剛提到的焦慮，蔡導認為全世界最焦慮的行業就是拍電影。其實每個人都很焦慮，因為每個人都無法做自己，都要做別人眼中的那個人。然而，蔡導電影中的小康，就是他自己；這樣他才會是一個人，而不是一個什麼電影角色。

「我常覺得有很多年輕導演不夠成熟，所謂成熟是，你在創作上要可以看得到、做得到，你就需要很大的自由。所謂的不成熟、不自由，就是因為不敢去碰一些值得去探索的議題，也礙於諸多環境限制而不敢繼續往前衝一些。大馬社會就是欠缺這種自由。但很多時候這個不自由也未必是環境壓迫你的，而是你自己壓迫自己、進而也去壓迫別人。」

「我們應該要問的是，馬來西亞電影能不能有『作者』出現？」

馬來西亞要到2000年以後，有明確作者姿態的電影創作者才開始出現。蔡導在茲念茲的，始終是「自由」能交付給電影人的創作生命及其力量。

對於舉辦一個影展究竟能帶來些什麼？或許如同蔡導所言，唯一需要貫徹始終的主題就是「自由創作」。電影的力量，並不是說辦了一個影展就能改變事情。

「我覺得你們要辦一個馬來西亞影展其實很簡單，就只要告訴大家，現在馬來西亞的導演會拍什麼樣的電影，這樣就夠了。」

*本訪談係為2019交通大學「焦慮的年代：馬來西亞影展在台灣」放映計劃進行並整理成章，完整版刊載於《放映週報》第643期，2019/04/15。

All About Freedoms: A Conversation with Tsai Ming Liang

/ Seah Jenn Yi (translated by Show Ying Xin)

It was raining heavily on our way to the place of interview. The taxi dropped us off in front of a building sandwiched between a row of ruined houses. We were served coffee as soon as we entered the house. While waiting for the interviewee to get ready, we looked around the interior. What attracted me was not the green courtyard outside the French windows, but the cabinet furnished with trophies: the Golden Lion, the Silver Bear and a few Golden Horses.

What prompts you make the film I Don’t Want to Sleep Alone? Why would Tsai Ming Liang make such film in such a place? Why was the film banned in Malaysia? Why didn’t you choose to live in Malaysia? Such trivial questions were of course on our list, but the experienced interviewee has read us like a book.

“You don’t have to ask me questions, and I can tell you everything now.”

“If today I am only a director who makes everyone’s favorite commercial films, I can shoot the film in Taiwan or Hong Kong, and you won’t want to screen my film. Why would you screen I Don’t Want to Sleep Alone? It’s because you understand the uniqueness of that film, as it’s a result of freedom of creation. You should be asking me: ‘Why wouldn’t Tsai Ming Liang create his works in Malaysia?’”

A censored film

Since he had shot the film in Malaysia, he thought he might as well try to run it in local theatres. Nevertheless, once submitted for approval, the film is almost too natural to be banned. He submitted the second time and requested the authority to give him reasons for the ban. He was given eight ridiculous explanations, including the “negative portrayals of Malaysia”.

“Therefore, I decided to publicize this matter to invite public discussion. The review result is to cut five scenes; initially, I was definitely not willing to do so, but later I still came to terms with it. What came to my mind at that time was: this is the place where I make the film, and this is my country, can I contribute anything to this place? So, I want it to be screened in the local cinemas even if it was censored into a one-minute film. I want everyone to know that what they are watching is a censored film.”

The film eventually made it to local cinemas, but with only a few slots in selected remote cinemas.

“Will I lose hope on Malaysia? No. She just needs to go through the process, and I want to have a dialogue with her; that’s why I returned. If I return as a nobody, I can only be one part of the society who is expected to be obedient; but if I am strong enough, I do not expect you to listen to me when I return, but I can choose to be myself. When you can be yourself, you would realize that there is more than one place you can go.”

Before the actual shooting of I Don’t Want to Sleep Alone in the city of Kuala Lumpur, what attracted Tsai the most is the migrant workers. The poor people are brought into Malaysia during the rapid development of the country. Tsai observed their state of being trapped in a place and decided to tell their stories. However, some academics felt disappointed after watching the film as they thought it does not tell the circumstances of migrant workers.

“I make films about them not because I want to focus on their problems; it’s because they are also humans. I want to tell the stories about humans, about their lust. I want to make films about Malaysia, and they naturally become my stories.”

“Since you are also Malaysians, I think we should talk about our environment.”

Movies as limited entertainment

There was no such thing as film festivals in Malaysia during that time. Some years before 2000, a fan club in Kuala Lumpur screened Tsai’s movies underground. They used copied discs, which was really something during that time. First, the files are not censored; second, the way of importing is unusual: the members sought help from the Taipei cultural office in Malaysia and the copied discs were brought in in the name of promoting cultural activities. They screened the films at a now-defunct old cinema for a few days, in fear of being raided anytime. Fortunately, the screening went well, and that marked the first screening of Tsai Ming Liang’s films in his home country.

“I remember telling the friends at the club that a film festival is most needed in Malaysia. This film festival should not be intended to look grand, but it should be a film festival for Malaysians. It is to let the young people know that there are so many films outside, not just those you get to watch in the cinema. In terms of the industry in Malaysia, I grew up watching commercial films so, frankly speaking, I had no other choices. We are often fed by limited entertainment through movies, and that limitation is precisely what the country and the film companies want you to see. Therefore, our taste is biased; also, since there was no internet during that time, people had no choice. But, when people finally see some distinctive films, they would be eager to watch more. Gradually, they would distance themselves with those entertainment films, and would see the real world through the distinctive films.”

“Some people would live a mediocre life. When they think about movies, they can only think of entertainment films. These films won’t change life. For instance, thousands of Bollywood films are being produced every year for the consumption of poor people; people go to the cinema to enjoy the same melodramatic musicals for a few hours, yet their life still can’t be changed as the films feature no poor people at all. Therefore, if Malaysians still hold on to entertainment movies, society could not change. But a change is not easy; you have to keep doing it even though you are excluded from the community.”

Freedom of creation

About the feeling of anxiety, the theme of this film festival, Tsai is of the view that the most uneasy job in the world is precisely making movies. In fact, everyone is anxious about not being able to be him/herself as he/she always wants to be the person in the eyes of others. Hsiao-Kang, in Tsai’s films, is himself a person, and he is not some movie characters.

“I often have a feeling that many young directors are not mature enough. You need a lot of freedom to see and to do things. You are immature and not free when you don’t dare to explore certain issues, or you don’t dare to move forward due to many limitations in the environment. Precisely, Malaysia lacks such kind of freedom (to create). However, oftentimes the oppression may not necessarily come from the environment, but from yourself; and then you proceed to oppress others”.

“We have to ask, can there be an auteur in Malaysian cinema?”

It’s not until the 2000s that some directors with a clear auteur stance began to appear. What concerns Tsai the most, it’s always the strength and creative life that “freedom” can bestow on the filmmakers.

What can a film festival bring? Perhaps it’s like what Tsai said –the only theme is “freedom of creation.” The power of cinema cannot be realized with simply a film festival.

“I think it’s easy for you to organize this Malaysian Film Festival. You just have to tell your audience what kind of films have contemporary Malaysian directors been producing. And this is enough.”

* This interview is conducted for the “Age of Anxiety: Malaysian Film Festival in Taiwan”. The full version has been published on Funscreen Issue No. 643 on Apr 15, 2019.