A Personal Relationship?
Striking up a friendship with Jesus from within a naturalistic paradigm.
Back in 2005, I participated briefly in a usenet group called talk.origins. The subject matter dealt extensively with evolution, and the conversation typically pitted supporters of evolutionary theory against fundamentalist Christians who supposed, more often than not, that evolution was 'only' a theory not supported by fact.
Like so many aspects of American discourse today, the 'discussion' was so polarized that it more closely resembled navel battles from the olden days, when sailing ships would maneuver close to each other to deliver devastating broadsides. In this respect, there was little to differentiate the believers from the pagans.
However, after several mis-steps, occasionally launching ad hominem attacks myself, I chanced upon an unusual essay by 'Oldman' who seemed to be straddling both camps.
I don't remember what the essay was titled, but I remember being won over by Oldman's humility and subtle humor as he took a moment to describe his qualifications.
ESSAY by OLDMAN as it appeared on talk.origins 2005
This essay seemed remarkable and rare - a creationist actually engaging the theory of evolution in what appeared to be an open and thoughtful manner. I responded, and the dialogue that resulted over the course of several months eventually resulted in 35 pages of material which either shows that I'm not completely without communication skills, or that Oldman was an extremely patient evangelist...or perhaps even a friend. Note: I've color coded the text to help readers recognize who's talking. My contributions will be red, foreshadowing my likely eternal destination, and Oldman's writings will be colored blue. (Note: Google Sites doesn't seem to support colored text so Oldman's text will be in italics)
1. My Initial Response to Oldman's Essay.
Common ground - trying to reconcile evolutionary theory with the creation account. Revealing my bias - preferring a naturalistic world view to a supernatural one. Questioning the rationale for positing an 'eternal soul'.
2. Oldman Lays Out His Position.
God responsible for all creation - evolution as possible mechanism utilized in 'forming from the dust'. Life here on Earth is only temporary. Universe has purpose. Duality of humans - physical/spiritual. Eternal soul because the bible teaches it.
3. Even Scott Can Quote Scripture.
Who wrote the Bible? Why do some think it doesn't have mistakes? Orthodox interpretation not the only show in town. Bible as library instead of 1 bound hardcover. Difficulties with interpretation. Eternal Soul or Living Being? Dual nature of humans unknown to Hebrew authors? What was Jesus' gospel before He did that crucifixion thing? Kingdom of Heaven here now?
4. Inspiration of Scripture (2nd Timothy Style)
Oldman's background. Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth Miller. Second Timothy defense of scripture. What scripture can be used for. Possible mis-applications of scripture
5. 2nd Timothy Interpretation Problematical
Scott's background. Second Timothy: Proof text of evangelists. My attempt at interpreting Second Timothy.
6. Oldman Supports the Concept of Life after Death.
Man made in 'the image of God'. Hebrew concept of life after death. New testament concept of eternal life. Orthodox understanding of Jesus story as act of redemption.
7. More On Nature of New Testament Documents.
Oldman encourages honest questioning - Addresses New Testament timeline - Paul's admonition to correctly use the word of truth.
8. Genuine Faith vs. Willful Ignorance.
Inspiration in a naturalistic world - Faith needn't be blind - Faith isn't Magic - Situations where faith can be dangerous - How to determine God's will? - metaphorical double standards - what about miracles? - desire for transcendent experience - "maybe you're expecting too much."
9. Faith Based on Personal Relationships.
Bible distinct from all other writings - Faith as described in book of Hebrews - Paradoxical claims: Faith is not based on physical evidence, but Faith is based on personal relationships. - Knowing God's will - Belief in miracles - purpose of miracles.
10. What If You Couldn't Say "Personal Relationship"?
The thing about personal testimonies - The Hall of Fame for people of faith - My admiration of Abraham - embellishing the story - loose interpretation of the word 'personal'.
11. Your Big Issue: Relationship with God.
Relationships: Personal and Impersonal - Relationships: Levels of intimacy - What God wants.
12. ...How Else Does God Speak?
Joan of Arc anecdote - personal relationship with God = thoughtful introspection? - exploring definitions of personal relationships - I posit the idea that personal relationships must be bi-directional - my less than impressive statement of faith in a naturalistic paradigm - Oh yes there is an intermediary! - Even real personal relationships can be misconstrued - Is Oldman imaginary? - How do you distinguish Jesus from a placebo? - faith as sharing of stories.
13. I Finally Ruin the Conversation.
Oldman's offer - Scott's reluctance to join Atheism vs. Christianity.
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s. dietz copyright 2011