1981, January: Hayao Miyazaki

Translation by Ray. Minor edits by Reed Nelson. Some portions of the interview have been removed in this translation by the translator due to irrelevance/sidetracking.

Interview conducted by Emiko Okada.

Okada:

I am a member of famous movie club for more than 20 years and I heard all the members were raving about your movie “Castle of Cagliostro.”

Miyazaki:

Thank you so much. But I also have so many bitter memories and regrets about that movie.

Okada:

For a creator, no piece is just perfect, I assume. I just wanted to tell you that we loved this film of yours.

Miyazaki:

I understand. Thank you. I will tell my crew so, too.

[And then went on talking about how they have to cut some scenes (about 7 minutes worth) to make the movie fit into TV showing which I thought is irrelevant. -Ray]

Okada:

...I thought the film was well put together and there was no waste of time.

Miyazaki:

I am an impatient person, so I like the plot to have no breaks. I often watch a movie enjoying the fast pace of it while others complain that it is too fast and tiring. (laugh)

Okada:

I though the pace was perfect in the film. The slow part and fast part was mixed well and calculated to be very effective.

Miyazaki:

Thank you… I did not plan that far so seriously myself. I was just thinking what kind of action and acting was done, and/or what kind of refreshing image I could make to make it more entertaining for the audience. Then there is a schedule. There were so many “wounds” (flows). The problem with the production company, the limitation of my own skill as a director, etc… I did not actually talk much about this film. I still don’t know, honestly. (laugh)

Okada:

Do you feel that you did what you could do best at the time, and speaking of the film now would be more like making excuses?

Miyazaki:

Yes. When you start working on the film, you think you know all about the skill of the artists and the crew. That combined with the timeframe which you were given, you will know what kind of “building” you can build with all that. And you start building a foundation. You would start building a big robust one thinking even if the plan failed, this foundation will be able to support it. So you plan big, and then the plan will put so much pressure on you in the end. (laugh) That’s where I always fail. I cannot gauge that well.

Anyway, my staff and crew worked really hard for this film, so soon after they finished, if the director said “What the heck did we ended up making?” that would be an insult. So we cannot say that. Of course, it’s in my heart, like “that stupid one” or things like that… (laugh) But then, it is probably true for both parties.

The idea for the story came from “The Girl with the Green Eyes” and “Ghost Tower.”

Okada:

So how long did it take for you to finish that film?

Miyazaki:

I started preparing in May of 1979 and the production started the following July. It all finished in late November. So it was about 4 months total? The preparation time was only two months. So I spent a month to create the story and the next month to finish the storyboard. When production started in July, only one-fourth of the storyboard was complete. I made the rest alongside the production. It was like we kept going without a plan and by the time we finished the last scenes, we were all dying with exhaustion. (laugh) We even skipped eating dinners several times. I don’t know how we did all that without alcohol.

Okada:

I see. I can imagine how hard it would have been if you started reviewing the film and making changes.

Miyazaki:

I sometimes wish if I had one more month, maybe it would have been different and more perfect, but that’s just my ideal speaking. There are also scenes that became alive and made more sense only after the production team put animations on. So I could added more to them, also…

Okada:

That tight scheduling was a bad habit of Japanese animation industry, maybe.

Miyazaki:

It was not like a process where you go after the story and themes and the rest of the film starts building up. It was more action and character oriented to begin with. I think that is why it was failed as an entertainment.

Okada:

I thought it was a great entertainment. I was running up the stairs of the movie theater thinking I had watched a great film.

Miyazaki:

I am glad to hear that. (laugh)

Okada:

How did you come up with that story?

Miyazaki:

It was from Maurice Leblanc’s novel. There was a story called “The Girl with Green Eyes” [US version title: Arsène Lupin, Super-Sleuth], which revolves around a mineral water called Giovanni water. In the novel, there is a lake which has the remains of ancient Rome hidden in the bottom…

Okada:

Is that so?

Miyazaki:

Yes. I read the book while I was in middle school. I rented the book from a book rental store. I liked the book very much I read it many times. I was always excited to see a beautiful girl in novels. (laugh)

Okada:

Lupin series are known to have a beautiful woman in its story.

Miyazaki:

All Leblanc’s Lupin novel have beautiful girls.

Okada:

And Lupin always falls in love. Again and again.

Miyazaki:

Yes. (laugh) When Lupin became too old, he puts a younger guy in the story instead… (laugh) So, that book and a novel called “Ghost Tower” by Ruiko Kuroiwa.

Okada:

I guessed that book was it.

Miyazaki:

Actually, I never read the book by Ruiko myself. However, Ranpo Edogawa wrote his “Ghost Tower” based on Ruiko’s. I heard even Ruiko’s version was a reproduction and there was another original somewhere.

Okada:

Yes, there is. A novel by English author.*

Miyazaki:

Ranpo was looking for that original but he could never find it.

*[Ruiko Kuroiwa's Ghost Tower is an adaptation of the 1898 English novel A Woman in Grey by Alice M. Williamson, but he wrote in the book that it was actually based on a novel called The Phantom Tower, a red herring and a real-world phantom of a novel. (Ha!) -Reed]

Okada:

I came across with this book one day and it had things like “secret treasure”, “secret of clock tower”, “a whole in a portrait picture”, “pitfall to basement”... So I thought this must be where you got the image from.

Miyazaki:

I liked the clock tower which appeared in that novel. I always wanted to create a film using that material... So I mixed those two together.

Okada:

I see.

“It is hard to move characters and set a frame for the stage”

Miyazaki:

In fact, I wanted to do that when I was working on the first Lupin TV series. Back then, I only had the image of the opening, in which a bride is driving a really old car passing by and the man would be chasing after her. And I used it when I was assigned for this film’s director.

Okada:

You were really into that book.

Miyazaki:

Yes. I read the book, and also there was a audio book version of “Ghost Tower”on the radio by Muse Tokugawa, which was excellent. It highlights the small details like the sound “rustle of clothing”... It was thrilling.

Okada:

Even without the picture you can almost see it.

Miyazaki:

Yes, things like maze and mystery of clock tower was better suited to play in audiobook. I also feel that Lord of the Rings is best told in audiobook format. (laugh)

Okada:

I think so too. There are rooms for more imagination.

Miyazaki:

If you put them to drawings and pictures, you would lose certain things, sadly. I had that dilemma but I wanted also had the strong urge to put the story down in my drawing.

Okada:

I did not feel that it was limiting or disappointing even knowing the book that is based on.

Miyazaki:

I wish I could use the castle more structuring. I had a hard time designing the castle and determining its size. If I made it small, it would not look like a leader of a nation won’t be living in here. If I make it too big, then it does not look good either…

Okada:

You also used the Roman Aqueducts.

Miyazaki:

I saw the pictures of Aqueducts when I was small. From a glance, you don’t know where the water is running. I did not think it was at the very top.

Okada:

A lot of the people think it is just a stone bridge.

Miyazaki:

So I made the structural plan of the buildings. Staff members had a hard time grasping the architectural structure of the buildings. I tried to explain from time to time, but most of them still did not understand it well.

Okada:

Do you always make those precise design/frame for the stage and background?

Miyazaki:

No, I always wish I could, and use it to the full extent. But I guess I'm not talented enough to do that. For example, there are background stories like, the male citizens of Cagliostro are all aspiring to work for the castle one day, but all the young people are living outside the nation, so the Shadows (the assassins) in the film are actually all middle-aged guys. Even the counterfeit business was losing its power as world trade shifts to electronic money transfers. So the nation’s economy was in decline. And the people of Cagliostro had too much pride to live off tourism as their main business, and so on. But I couldn't include all that background information in the film. So the Count appears to be a simple villain, who is also a pedophile. (laugh)

Okada:

I thought he was a very humane villain. In the Akira Kurosawa movie that you said you like, there is a story that one script writer made a troubling situation and asked another script writer to solve the problem. Have you ever done that kind of thing with Lupin?

Miyazaki:

No, I have never done that. I wish there was a scriptwriter that creative. A true action film all has that “solving a seemingly impossible problem/situation” in the core. Do you know the Hornblower series?

Okada:

Yes, the marine’s story.

Miyazaki:

There was an episode that a guy escapes from French camp. He also saves the injured soldier along the way. It seems like an impossible task but he finds a way down the river. I heard the author of the novel actually took a boat and went down that river to find the route himself. I like that. Of course, most of the things that’s written is fiction. But he makes it believable.

It is all about making the setup of the situation and to start the problem solving. That is most difficult, I think.

“It's hard to make a villain that can be killed easily.”

Miyazaki:

Speaking of a villain, in action, it used to be really easy to portray a villain. Like an Indian in Western movies and corrupted landlord in Japanese Samurai movies. But today things are becoming more and more difficult.

Okada:

I agree. There is no one who is 100% evil and easy to kill. I believe that is why action films are becoming hard to make.

Miyazaki:

That is my point.

Okada:

I assume that is why people started making Space Operas: people are start taking things to outer space. Those villains are not humans, after all, so we can kill them with no hesitation.

Miyazaki:

Characters like Darth Vader and soldiers of the Empire are given the evil looks and title, so we can justify killing them senselessly. However, what if they look more like us…?

Okada:

I think that is why they do not show their faces.

Miyazaki:

I feel sick watching “Planet of the Apes” because I feel that the Apes are maybe a metaphor for Asians. (laugh) There is a term “Yellow Peril” in the Western world, in which the East will bring terrors and disasters to the Western society. I feel that idea is in the base of that movie.

Then I started seeing Star Wars the same way. The ones who are wearing rags and olive skinned look like Puerto Ricans or Mexicans, or even Indians. I heard some people said the people who were collecting robot parts and making a living selling them was a symbol of Japanese. (laugh)

And that bothers me. We are substituting Indians with some other images. And if that is inevitable for making an action film, it is really sad.

Okada:

But the villains have to be terrifying, scary and really strong to make the movie more interesting.

Miyazaki:

Exactly. But then I wonder: who is “terrifying, scary and really strong” in our society now? If a dirty old politician is trying to gather the rich, can you see them as villains?

Okada:

Mmm, I do not know.

Miyazaki:

It’s easy to understand if there is a clear villain, like the authorities, like Louis the Something-eth who is selfish and doing all sorts of cruel things to the nation for his own satisfaction. But the things are not that simple and easy nowadays. Having a lot of money does not give you much power.

Okada:

Yes, I feel the same.

Miyazaki:

If people are starving around you, it would make a difference because you will never go hungry if you had the money. But take a look around. Times have changed, and the people with pot bellies are the poor ones. Wealthy people in America eat so little trying to lose weight to keep their body in shape.

Okada:

It seemed to me, that villains used to have maybe 30% goodness among their evil nature. Recently, the villains in movies have 60% goodness compared to before. And it is stressful for people to watch that.

Miyazaki:

I think before, people considered villains to include life’s misfortunes/disaster famines and natural disasters. The dragons and demons. Maybe it was symbolic, but it was pure and strong evil. Of course we still have those disasters, but their evilness lost its appeal over the years as we have means to avoid them. I always wish I could create a perfect villain who people will scream in their head “Kill him!” as they watch.

Okada:

The enemy which audience worry the main hero might not be able to defeat?

Miyazaki:

Yes, that would be really nice if I could create that character.

“Bringing a wonderful dream to people.”

Miyazaki:

People ask me often what I would like to make. Then I always goes back to the simple answer. I would like to make an animation which I wanted to see as a child.

When I was a kid, I was reading comics and/or watching a movie and wondered “Why does it end right here? Why don’t they continue?” “Why wouldn’t they go into more details?” I would like to make something to satisfy those needs. Something which kids would forget about their own worldly issues and be lost in.

Okada:

That would be like a dream.

Miyazaki:

Yes. It would be really hard to make something like that.

[Then he spent almost 2 pages talking about his personal experience with Chinese circus and his dream to make something wonderful -Ray]

“It is Man’s Dream to have a heroine like Clementine”

Okada:

There are some who expressed the worries if Clarisse would be happy in the end.

Miyazaki:

I think that is up to her. Not Lupin, not the story of the film. She needs to find her happiness.

Okada:

Maybe she will turn the castle into a national treasure and bring in tourism, or make more counterfeit. (laugh)

Miyazaki:

I thought about making epilogues. I think there was something between the gardener and Lupin. An unspoken promise. But then I don’t see any point talking about it here and now. She should be happy for now because she is not in captivity of a weirdo anymore! (laugh)

I could add some lines like “You don’t have to be a princess - you can throw away your title and rank.” in order for the pursuit of her true happiness. But then, there are critics which says I portray woman too idealistically. They seems unrealistic like they do not even pee or poop. (laugh) I wanna ask them if they want to see girls who are peeing and pooping all the time. (laugh) Those girls are all around us, you know?

In all seriousness, I would like to have staff who can draw a graceful woman with presence.

Okazaki:

I think the film’s ending was very similar to “My Darling Clementine.” Do you like that movie?

Miyazaki:

Yes. But people who like that movie was one generation older than mine. People like Mr. Otsuka mimicked the way Henry Fonda walked in the movie. (laugh)

Okazaki:

So, was Clarisse your version of Clementine?

Miyazaki:

No…… I never thought about it that way…...well, I created all kinds of heroines….. Anyway, why do you think those type of heroine like Clementines are rare now?

Okazaki:

Maybe because she is too unrealistic, like you said. (lough) It was a man’s dream. But I feel there is still a demand in the audience for someone like her.

Miyazaki:

I believe so too. When you fall in love with someone, you are certainly not imaging them peeing or pooping. You will be blinded to certain unpleasing reality. The heroine should be the symbol of all those moments. Charles Chaplin made so many movies which he is in the search for the person who would make him a better person than he is now. In the “Modern Times”, people say that the main theme of the movie is industrial revolution or something of that nature, but to me, it was all about a guy who met this homeless girl…

Okazaki:

And strive to become a better person for her?

Miyazaki:

Yes, she was a muse and reason of existence for him.

“I would like to make a movie with Lupin’s daughter as main character.”

Okada:

I think most of the audience who enjoyed this film was older than 20.

Miyazaki:

Yes, I made the character with my middle age mindset.

Okada:

I see.

Miyazaki:

It had a meaning of self-deprecating as well.

I asked people around me how old do you think Lupin is. People who are in 28 said that he is definitely “Older” than them. People who are close to 40 also answered that he must be “Older” than them. I feel the say way also. My point is, everybody thinks that he is older than them.

Okada:

I think that Lupin is mature.

Miyazaki:

When I was making the first TV series, I regarded him as being the same age. I do not know about Mr. Takahata, but I did not have to even think about Lupin’s age. There was a projection of myself in him. I cannot do that right now. I think if the creator project too much of himself in the character, that work is destined to have a shorter life expectancy.

Okada:

I can understand that.

Miyazaki:

If I can make a story of Lupin’s daughter, I can give it my all and create it now. If Lupin had a daughter somewhere… she does not know who her father is… she lives in a boarding school somewhere… Jigen and Goemon have already retired and Jigen owns a bird shop. Lupin cannot show up in front of the daughter and tell her his identity because he is a thief after all….

I am looking at my daughter growing up and I just imagine, if there was a girl who was above everyday concerns, it would be really nice…. she plays in a rock band, and wears a bunny girl costume without hesitation. She practices some Karate, but plays a violin alone in her quiet time… a weirdo, indeed. (laugh) Then there will be Fujiko’s niece, but she’ll be an airhead and tries to use her sex appeal too much and gets into too much trouble. If you pair them up and create a story, I think it would be fun, but nobody takes me seriously. (laugh) I just want to create something simple and fun.

Okada:

I thought Cagliostro did just that. Simple and fun.

(Originally from January 1981 Animage Interview)