by MJ Kruebbe
replying to: http://faithinthenews.com/3-things-to-say-to-an-atheist/,
by Pastor Jack Wellman, shared by family on Facebook, Feb 24, 2015.
Pastor Wellman's article poses 3 questions to Atheists:
What do you do with your guilt?
Where did the universe come from?
Can you prove there is no God?
Since the article was posted by a family member and likely directed toward me, I will assume that these are sincere questions, and I will respond to each question sincerely and in order.
These questions have been asked and answered countless times, but I will treat them as fresh questions, since both the author and my family members are not familiar with typical atheists' or cosmologists' responses or with any other literature on these topics.
1. The 1st question posed to atheists: "What do you do with your guilt?"
Well, first of all, I do not really have any unmanageable amount of guilt in my life so as to create a problem for myself. I generally try to do the best I can, and I realize that I am trying, so I do not beat myself up excessively for my shortcomings, since that would accomplish nothing of value.
When I do feel guilty about something, I try to understand why, I apologize when I feel it is warranted, I make amends when I can, I analyze my character looking for ways I might improve, and I let go of my guilt in favor of constructive action.
It is not that complicated. Such is the stuff of humanity, with or without religion.
It is true that I have seen much suffering in life, and if I think about certain episodes from the past, I can still feel pain, even a deep and rather intense amount of it. But I know that there are / were / have been far too many things beyond my control in the world, and I cannot blame myself unduly for the suffering that I have seen and felt. I think that everyone suffers, and there are too many life situations in which there is no painless option.
I simply do my best. And that is sufficient.
I do not feel any guilt regarding any personal gods, because I do not know of any personal gods that actually exist. If I did, I would gladly love and honor such divinity/divinities (assuming it/ he/ she/ they would be good), and I would seek to establish a good relationship with it/ him/ her/ them/ whatever.
Pastor Wellman quotes Romans 1:18, saying “the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, ... ."
Is threatening people the best way to express love? Yet the bible is full of such threats. "Love this god character and believe in my stories or you will burn." It's so psychologically manipulative, especially when used upon children.
I am curious, and I would like you to answer these questions and address these points:
What kind of "wrath" do you think is in store for me as a non-believer? Would you be kind enough to reply and explain the details?
And where do you think this "wrath" is "revealed"?
And what do you think I've done that deserves this alleged "wrath" from "heaven"? Do you think "wrath" is truly justified? The bible tells of eternal torment (https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/listofreasons#sdfootnote1sym). What exactly have I done that truly merits eternal torment?
If we, being "mere" modern humans, are capable of forgiving others without demanding blood sacrifice, and if we are capable of lovingly working out our issues face-to-face, wouldn't a real divinity be capable of such enlightened, loving decency as well? Yet the bible speaks of an imaginary, primitive, angry deity who is incapable of forgiving people (even for the pettiest mistakes) without demanding the blood sacrifice of innocent animals (Old Testament) or human flesh/ Jesus (New Testament). In the Old Testament, Yahweh smells "the pleasing aroma" of burning animal sacrifices from his home in the sky (Gen 8:20-21). About 39 times, the Torah speaks of that "pleasing aroma": Gen 8:21; Ex 29:18,25,41; Lev 1:9,13,17; 2:2,9,12; 3:5,16; 4:31; 6:15,21; 8:21,28; 17:6; 23:13,18; 26:31; Num 15:3,7,10,13,14,24; 18:17; 28:2,6,8,13,24,27; 29:2,6,8,13,36. What kind of deity likes the smell of burning flesh? Why isn't it clear to everyone that this is ancient superstition? People around the Mediterranean believed similar things; they all made animal sacrifices to please their gods; Yahweh was but one among many such gods invented by ancient people trying to make sense of a world they could not yet understand. And the New Testament is just as bad, because (A.) it is still based on the same absurd notion of blood sacrifice for forgiveness, and (B.) torturing and killing something or someone innocent to appease an angry god (as in the fictionalized Jesus story) does not actually remove anyone's guilt or make anyone a better person. Effort makes people better. I would welcome a loving, all-knowing father-in-the-sky, if one really existed. That would be wonderful! But the biblical deity is not only un-real, it is a shamefully angry, unjust, and impoverished character reflecting the poverty of the primitive minds who invented it in the first millennium BCE and the first couple of centuries of the Common Era.
The Christian bible teaches that all people have "sinned" (Rom 3.23) and thus deserve death and torment for their mistakes (Rom 6.23), but the moral code used to determine sin was a bogus, man-made, Jewish moral code passed off as coming from a sky god called Yahweh. It is not a worthy or legitimately divine moral code. Since the bible is obviously not God's word and no God is speaking to all mankind clearly, honestly, openly, unquestionably, without any fraud or pretense or self-proclaimed middle men, why should I listen to your outdated ideas regarding sin or guilt?
The biblical Exodus story is not historical to begin with. It is highly fictionalized. (https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/otchrono#TheExodus),
The Moses character is fictionalized. (https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/otchrono#Moses),
Moses did not actually write the Torah. Later Jews wrote and edited it. (https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/otchrono#LateAuthorship),
The "Mosaic" law allegedly from Yahweh/ God is a rather primitive law code that most people would now consider immoral, if they bothered to read it! (https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/otchrono#MosaicLaw),
And it is easy to see that the Jews borrowed their ideas from older cultures and law codes, like the earlier Code of Hammurabi. Animal sacrifice, "eye for an eye" morality, and concern for "orphans and widows," etc., were not invented by Yahweh or Moses; the Babylonians and Sumerians had taught those concepts much earlier. The Hebrews/ Jews simply modified older law codes, and just like Hammurabi, they claimed to get their laws from a divine source, ... so that the people would obey the priesthood and government. (https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/otchrono#MosesAndHammurabi).
Christians also thought sin entered the world through Adam, and they believed the Jewish creation story regarding Adam and Eve, but anyone willing to study a bit can see quite clearly that the Adam and Eve story is a myth, not a historical event. (https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/otchrono#AdamandEve)
Is your character and lifestyle better than mine? Do you have greater love, joy, peace, knowledge, etc. in your life than I do? There is no Christian on the planet with whom I would trade lives.
If there were a real, personal God, and it/ he/ she really wanted to get to know me, it should have no problem communicating with me and making itself known. I am easy to find. If you can speak to me, surely it/he/she could do so as well (or better), IF there were a God. I would honestly be so very happy to hear from such a God, if one existed. I spent my teens and early 20s on my knees and on long walks seeking the God my Christian parents told me about and studying the alleged 'holy book' quite thoroughly for my age. I found ultimately that the Christian bible most certainly cannot stand up to scrutiny, that the biblical god does not really exist, that Christians rely on their imaginations, that they have been brainwashed, that they are motivated by fear (despite what they may say), that they are afraid of change and afraid of probing too deep (despite what they say), and that Christians have no real answers to give me for any of this. Am I to be blamed for trying my best and for being honest? Am I to be blamed when neither you nor your alleged god has anything to say in response to my honest seeking and probing? Do I deserve punishment in return for my truth-seeking?
The "wrath of god(s)" is an ancient but unfortunately persistent myth meant to scare people into obedience in various cultures. That is all. Your religion is but one variation on a popular old theme. If you can show me evidence to the contrary, I will listen. I do not need a myth to scare me into being a good person. I see the logic in trying to be good for its own sake -- for the rewards and the harmony concomitant with love, knowledge,and virtue.
Further, quoting the bible is completely worthless unless you can verify that the bible is worth believing. I have set out out a more-than-sufficient amount of evidence to show that the bible was written by fallible people, not a god, and that the bible is not trustworthy, (https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/). Although my conclusions are my own, they are in line with those of the best biblical scholars on the planet. Are you able or willing to address my concerns or my evidence? If not, you are a pretentious coward if you continue to quote from a debunked book.
If you really care, try reading what I have written, just as I took the time to read your post and reply to it openly. If you have no reply to make against my evidence, be reasonable and acknowledge the validity of my points.
2. The 2nd question: "Where did the Universe come from?"
In short, either the universe is naturally eternal and self-existent, or else it arose naturally and is self-existent. Either way, no external cause is needed or warranted by any evidence.
If you are proposing this question sincerely, and it is not mere rhetoric, then here are some resources for you:
"What Caused the Big Bang?" -- a relatively short essay I have written, including references to the works of professional physicists/ cosmologists: https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/thebigquestions/what-caused-the-big-bang.
"Why Are We Here?" -- a more lengthy discussion of "big questions," also written by me, with many links to books, videos, and articles by professional physicists and others. https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/thebigquestions/1-why-are-we-here-do-we-have-a-purpose.
Although I provide both resources and a good discussion in the links above, including a list of reasons why no intelligent, deliberative, or personal cause should be proposed as the cause of the Big Bang, I will list some links here as well:
Not all physicists consider the "Big Bang" the ultimate beginning. Here is an example: "No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning," posted at Phys.org on Feb 09, 2015, by Lisa Zyga: http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html.
"Lawrence Krauss: A Universe from Nothing," a video of Krauss's appearance on "The Agenda with Steve Paikin," TVO, Ontario Public Television, (26 minutes, 12 seconds), YouTube: http://youtu.be/46sKeycH3bE.
And here is a short television episode featuring the ideas of famed cosmologist Stephen Hawking. This is from "Curiosity," Season 1, Episode 1, "Did God Create the Universe?" Stephen Hawking explains why his physics has no need for a god in order to explain the existence of the universe. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xmc55o_curiosity-s01e01-did-god-create-the-universe_tech.
Curiosity - S01E01 Did God Create the Universe by bdtmz
Further, even if physicists had no answer to such questions, it is still true that the biblical story of creation is not a true story, but was an attempt by one of my ancient tribes to invent a story to explain what they did not know. https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/otchrono.
If you really want to know about the discoverable history of the universe, preachers and debunked ancient texts are not the best sources of information.
Pastor Wellman quotes a psalm, saying "the psalmist knew ... " about the heavens. But the psalmists did not really know much, and they were woefully ignorant of so much more.
For example, the writer of Psalm 18 (allegedly David) also thought that his god Yahweh flew through the clouds on the backs of cherubim (winged hybrid creatures from Babylonian mythology), breathed smoke from his nostrils and fire from his mouth when he got angry, and sent thunder and lightning down on the enemies of Israel! He also thought that mountains were the foundation pillars of the sky / heavens. (https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/yahweh-the-primitive-storm-god--sky-god) Does that shows great insight into the nature of the universe? The Old Testament is as primitive as the iron age men who wrote it.
Pastor Wellman also quotes the epistle of Romans again: "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made [i.e. nature], so that people are without excuse" (Romans 1.20).
Here are two problems with that statement:
When biblical authors talk about the "creation of the world," they are speaking from a misguided belief in a Jewish myth, not reality. If you were to investigate the bible with care and diligence, you could see what I mean. Here is a good explanation: https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/otchrono .
If "God's invisible qualities" are so "clearly seen" from nature, why is it that people around the world disagree regarding those qualities or even the existence of such a being? Why didn't the Egyptians, Chinese, Greeks, or Romans all "clearly see" the same "qualities" some (certainly not all) Jews did? And even putting other religions aside, if it is so clear, why is Christian history so ugly/ messy, with people fighting, excommunicating, and even killing each other for disagreeing about the nature of the Christian god? Furthermore, the people who now probe the deepest into nature are among those most likely to feel compelled to abandon belief in ancient superstitions, such as those Christians hold. Among the world's best biologists and physicists/ cosmologists, religiosity drops to a very low percentage, because what they learn about nature runs quite counter to claims made in the bible.
3. The 3rd question posed to atheists: "Can you prove there is no God?"
The answer, of course, is no, but atheists do not need to prove the non-existence of gods or fairies or ghosts, etc. And the very question is completely misguided.
The question sounds just like what my mother said to me a few weeks ago (on Facebook): "No one has ever proven the non existence of a Higher Intelligence than man." ...
The inability to prove the non-existence of something is not a valid argument in favor of its existence! No one has ever proven the non-existence of leprechauns, fairies, big foot, Zeus, Poseidon, Hermes, Ra, Osiris, Thor, Oden, Allah, Vishnu, Yahweh, Ganesha, angels, demons, elves, a spiritual Pinocchio that watches you while you cook, etc. ... either! So what? Should I believe in those too? Can you prove there is not an invisible, undetectable, resurrected Elvis in your house right now? No. But unless you can give me evidence of such things, why should I entertain such notions? You are in the same camp as all the other superstitions unless you can provide good evidence. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I care about what really exists, not what can not be proven not to exist!
Reliance on an opponent's inability to prove the non-existence of something is a logical fallacy. Here is more information: http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/146-proving-non-existence. It's also called "shifting the burden of proof." You should read about Bertrand Russell's celestial tea pot while you're at it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot.
I will address other comments made by Pastor Wellman.
>> The atheist, technically doesn’t exist because it is impossible for them to prove that God doesn’t exist. That takes a great deal of faith."
Whether Wellman believes it or not, I really exist, and I am an atheist, because I do not have an active believe in a personal god/God. And no, it does not take much faith for me to see that Christians rely on their imaginations, not evidence, and that they do not carefully investigate the claims of their own religion.
An atheist does not need to "prove" there is no god in order to be an atheist, just as you do not have to prove that Thor, Allah, Hermes, and Vishnu do not exist in order for you to lack belief in them.
Do you believe in Thor? Or are you an atheist in regards to Thor? Does your inability to prove Thor's non-existence matter even the tiniest bit to you? ... I didn't think so.
The most common form of atheism is simply a lack of belief in personal deities. It is the default position for someone who doesn't have sufficient evidence to warrant belief.
Everything I know about Christians from being a dedicated believer myself for so long and from living among you all for my whole life confirms for me that there is no supernatural power in the lives of Christians, Muslims, etc., and there never was. That is not a bad thing. Your life does not need an imaginary friend in the sky in order to give it abundant love, wisdom, joy, peace, etc.
I have posted so many reasons why Christianity is not true. Can you give me any decent evidence or arguments to the contrary?
>>"What scientific evidence can they provide that God doesn’t exist?"
More importantly, what scientific evidence shows that Christianity and its bible are false? Tons of evidence. Here, check this out and don't be lazy: https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home.
>> "If there is no God, then is it fair that Hitler and Stalin have no justice served for all their crimes against humanity??"
Hitler and Stalin are dead. Time to get over your desire for vengeance upon them. Even if you further tried to torture their dead corpses, or even if you could resurrect them and then torture them for eternity to fulfill your own personal form of psychological illness, it would do NOTHING to change what they already accomplished and what NO GODS intervened to prevent or stop or diminish.
If you want a just god, you need one capable of warning people before the priest molests the altar boy, not a god who watches it happen, allows it to happen, even in allegedly holy places, and does nothing to stop it! The Christian god is imaginary.
"Is it fair?" No. That's why it is important for people to work hard to make life better. No gods are going to intervene and do it for us.
>>"Are there moral absolutes? If not, then aren’t they making an absolute statement that there are no absolutes?"
This is irrelevant. But if you want to propose a moral absolute, I'll listen.
Something I do know is that Judeo-Christian "morality" was not originally given by a real, personal god to Moses on a mountain as the bible portrays it (https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/otchrono#MosaicLaw),
and Judeo-Christian morality certainly has changed a lot over time. It has not been absolute. (https://sites.google.com/site/investigatingchristianity/home/christian-morality-evolves).
Conclusion:
I have addressed your questions. Are you willing to address mine and consider the evidence honestly?
I will be waiting.