Murkglow - WASD

Arm4g3dd0nX: WASD is quite inferior to the numpad.

Arm4g3dd0nX: I think it became the default because people complained that they had to slide their keyboards to the left.

Murkglow: What? Not this again! I'm away for a day and already you're back on this? Bad Arm4g3dd0nX Bad!

Murkglow: Anything you can do with a Num pad can be done with WSAD...

Murkglow: Grrrr...

Arm4g3dd0nX: I was responding to a new person.

Arm4g3dd0nX: And I never said you can't do everything on wasd that you can on the numpad.

Arm4g3dd0nX: I daresay though if you were to randomly sample people that play in FPS ladder tournaments...

Arm4g3dd0nX: the people that use numpad will be statistically higher on that ladder than those that don't.

Murkglow: Possibly, however I would say that's only because the majority use WSAD...

Murkglow: so all of the weaker players drag the average down for WSAD...

Murkglow: while people who use Num Pad (I can't say I've seen many, you being the most prominent at the moment)...

Murkglow: would be the more "individualist" (i.e. not majority) players.

Murkglow: Thus Num Pad does not suffer from weaker players dragging it down.

Murkglow: With that out of the way I still disagree WSAD is "quite inferior" (your words) to Num Pad.

Murkglow: At worse they are basically the same.

Arm4g3dd0nX: Well if it was a random sample all that would be eliminated.

Arm4g3dd0nX: And if you are in a ladder tournament, your already one of the much better players.

Arm4g3dd0nX: If you're saying that it doesn't count because people that use numpad correlate with better gamers...

Arm4g3dd0nX: well that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

Murkglow: My statistics is a bit rusty. How would random sample help?

Murkglow: And yes I'm saying "people that use numpad correlate with better gamers"...

Murkglow: but I'm not saying it's because Num Pad is better...

Murkglow: I'm saying it because WSAD is much more popular/common...

Murkglow: which means you're more likely to find weaker players using it...

Murkglow: over much more uncommon/nitch/individualist bind sets like num pad/EDSF/Arrows/ect...

Murkglow: You've also still not shown any reason WSAD is inferior yet (at least not in this thread).

Arm4g3dd0nX: Hah, I could argue more but I think I'll be happy with the partial victory...

Arm4g3dd0nX: if you admit that people that spend time thinking about their key bindings...

Arm4g3dd0nX: rather than using the default just because it’s the default, tend to be better gamers.

Arm4g3dd0nX: I think that's about all I could convince you even through a heated debate.

Murkglow: But that's not what I'm saying.

Murkglow: (Though I am more then willing to agree that people should pick a bind set that works for them/they are comfortable with.)

Murkglow: I'm saying that say you have 100 people...

Murkglow: 5 of which are the best, 20 are top tier, 25 are second tier, 25 are third tier, and 25 are bottom tier...

Murkglow: I would fully expect the entire bottom tier (and at least most of the next) to be all WSAD users.

Murkglow: (Not because WSAD is worse then others but because it is so prevalent.)

Murkglow: If you're using Numpad you're likely not a complete novice.

Murkglow: (Since it's a much rarer set you must have played a bit to pick it up somewhere.)

Murkglow: And thus are likely in at least the tier above that.

Murkglow: It's not the key binding that got you to the upper tier but that fact that you're likely a better player that did it.

Murkglow: The top tier I would hazard to guess is all personalized binds...

Murkglow: since people who make it to the top are likely the ones who play the very most and have developed their own bind set.

Murkglow: Often this isn't because WSAD doesn't work but because these players have likely been playing professional...

Murkglow: since before there was a standard and they simply got used to their own set.

Murkglow: Whatever the case, I've never had a problem with you using your own key binds...

Murkglow: in fact more power to you for doing so.

Murkglow: I do however disagree that WSAD is quite inferior and will defend it as a perfectly valid/competitive choice in its own right.

Murkglow: Thinking more on it, I do agree with "people that spend time thinking about their key bindings...

Murkglow: rather than using the default just because it’s the default, tend to be better gamers."

Murkglow: I would imagine it goes without saying that if you're a pro gamer you personalize every aspect to fit you.

Murkglow: Now that personalize might mean WSAD is for you and it might mean Num Pad is.

Murkglow: However that still does not make WSAD "quite inferior" so that idea still does not defend your previous comment anyway.

Arm4g3dd0nX: You've basically stated 3 times so far that people that think about their key bindings tend...

Arm4g3dd0nX: to be in a higher "tier" of gamers.

Arm4g3dd0nX: I asked you to agree with the statement that people that think about their key bindings tend...

Arm4g3dd0nX: to be in a higher "tier" of gamers.

Arm4g3dd0nX: Yet you have yet to admit what you have stated three times already when it is associated with agreeing with me.

Arm4g3dd0nX: That gives me clear evidence you are simply looking for an argument and you "don't want me to win".

Arm4g3dd0nX: No point in continuing then.

Arm4g3dd0nX: In other words:

Arm4g3dd0nX: If you are so inclined to not compromise that you are willing to contradict yourself...

Arm4g3dd0nX: how am I supposed to come up with an argument to sway you?

Murkglow: No I'm not trying to win/argue something just to argue it (as such a thing is foolish with a topic and a forum such as this).

Murkglow: My last post did indeed say I agree with you that people who think about their key bindings tend to be higher tier.

Murkglow: That was never an argument I was against in any fashion (I apologize if it seemed that way).

Murkglow: My only problem (and what started my comments to begin with) was simply that you said WSAD was "quite inferior".

Murkglow:That was the only problem I had.

Murkglow: You haven't given an argument which is why I tended to work myself up arguing nothings/side issues.

Murkglow: In other words:

Murkglow: You have not stated why you feel WSAD is inferior (and by extension Num Pad is superior).

Murkglow: You mentioned a bit about statistics which got me into that ramble I was on before this...

Murkglow: but all of that is simply a side issue/random talk.

Murkglow: State why you feel WSAD is inferior and we can start fresh from there.

Murkglow: "That gives me clear evidence you are simply looking for an argument and you "don't want me to win"."

Murkglow: is a bit harsh though if I do say so myself...

Arm4g3dd0nX: Perhaps I am wrong then. It was not my intention to offend you, merely to open your mind if it was not already. :)

Murkglow: You have not offended me (just as I don't think I've/hope I haven't offended you... o.o)...

Murkglow: people can have disagreements/differences of opinion without it being a problem.

Murkglow: As for opening my mind, I always have accepted your Num Pad usage as being a valid option...

Murkglow: I just feel the need to stand up for WSAD is all. =)

Arm4g3dd0nX: Getting back to my actual argument, it stands on two categories:

Arm4g3dd0nX: 1. People that think out what the best key setup would be tend to be better gamers.

Arm4g3dd0nX: And games that do not allow customization are lesser games because of it.

Murkglow: Agreed 100%.

Arm4g3dd0nX: 2. My personal preferences on numpad that are based in rational logic.

Arm4g3dd0nX: This category is broken down into 3 subcategories.

Murkglow: “KK - will discuss them in their own turns.

Arm4g3dd0nX: 2a. By the visual logic of spirals, lattices, triangles and grids...

Arm4g3dd0nX: (Everything we see is broken down into these components.)

Arm4g3dd0nX: I make the assumption that all five senses are dictated in the same way.

Arm4g3dd0nX: Based on this, I believe that the grid layout of the numpad is more natural and more immediately cognitive.

Murkglow: By this I assume you mean the way WSAD is "slanted".

Murkglow: I find this interesting because the modern keyboard itself was obviously designed purposely this way.

Murkglow: If it was easier on the hand/mind to have ordered rows then would the keyboard not already be in said rows?

Murkglow: Given that, I'm inclined to say that with the shape of the human hand...

Murkglow: and how much practice people have with the use of a keyboard, WSAD is at least just as easy/natural to use as Num Pad.

Arm4g3dd0nX: I would totally agree except the keyboard was designed in this way for ASDF not WASD.

Murkglow: But the same things that make it work so well for ASDF.

Murkglow: (How your fingers naturally fall into that line and how they work along/around it.)

Murkglow: It also works for WSAD (or at least they do for me).

Murkglow: Would you say you were more in favor of EDSF rather then WSAD?

Murkglow: (Even more on the ASDF line and thus useing that built in line-up more.)

Arm4g3dd0nX: That DOES have less issues with caps, tab, shift, alt, and windows key.  More on that later.

Arm4g3dd0nX: 2b. I feel as though the positioning of the middle and ring fingers are more congested in resting position.

Arm4g3dd0nX: This makes the ring finger and the thumb mostly not useful.

Arm4g3dd0nX:The ring can only access the Q and A keys naturally and the thumb generally only has access to the spacebar...

Arm4g3dd0nX: an awkward key in its own right.

Arm4g3dd0nX: All this combines to make the pointer finger vastly dominant on the keyboard...

Arm4g3dd0nX: sometimes having to reach as far as the G or H keys.

Murkglow: Those are indeed limitations on the WSAD formula.

Murkglow: (Though you can "extend the ring finger to TAB/Tilde/Capslock/1 or even Z with a bit of practice.)

Murkglow: I fail to see how the Num Pad set up does this better.

Murkglow: If anything I would imagine the same problem exists but in reverse.

Murkglow: Your thumb is only really able to hit enter (as is the WSAD space bar)...

Murkglow: and now either your ring finger or pinky will need to match what WSAD's pointer finger is doing...

Murkglow: and the only extra keys are the "home" island.

Murkglow: You're still stretching just with a different finger.

Murkglow: It could be argued that since you're using the pinky (a non-movement finger) rather then the pointer that would be an advantage.

Murkglow: Still that is somewhat evened out due to your pinky/ring finger slightly effecting one another when moved...

Murkglow: and the loss of extra keys coupled with the fact that your pointer tends to be a more responsive/accurate finger.

Arm4g3dd0nX: The ring finger has easy access to 1, 4, 7, and Num Lock.

Arm4g3dd0nX: The middle finger has easy access to 2, 5, 8, and /.

Arm4g3dd0nX: The pointer finger has easy access to 3, 6, 9, *, -, +.

Arm4g3dd0nX: And finally the thumb has easy access to Ins, Del and Enter.

Arm4g3dd0nX: When I use WASD I tend to use my middle finger to access Z.

Arm4g3dd0nX: The pointer finger for X, D, E, C, F, R, V, G, T, H.

Murkglow: Really, I never knew your thumb went for Insert.

Murkglow: My ring finger has easy access to Caps, Tab, Q, 1, A, and Z.

Murkglow: The middle finger has easy access to 2, W, S, and X.

Murkglow: The Pointer has easy access to D, E, R, F, C, 3 and 4.

Murkglow: My thumb has Space and Left Alt.

Murkglow: My Pinky has Left Shift and Left Ctrl (I'm sure your pinky works a bit of the "home island"/maybe arrows).

Murkglow: Perhaps my hand rests at an angle which makes Z easier for my ring finger.

Murkglow: I couldn't say as I have it that way all the time.

Arm4g3dd0nX: I pretty much gave up on binding tab, alt, shift,  or caps lock whenever I used WASD.

Arm4g3dd0nX: It may seem silly but my eyes get distracted to the other side of the keyboard...

Arm4g3dd0nX: when the caps lock light goes on and off which isn't so bad when doing it with num lock...

Arm4g3dd0nX: because its right next to the key.

Arm4g3dd0nX: Also caps lock doesn't affect software outside of the game.

Arm4g3dd0nX: Alt+Tab will crash most of the games I play.

Arm4g3dd0nX: The windows key is right next to alt.

Arm4g3dd0nX: And windows has that sticky keys popup if you press shift too much.

Murkglow: This is mostly just discussion anyway...

Murkglow: You shouldn't need all of the keys around your hand so some can be ignore usually.

Murkglow: I rarely find myself binding cap lock, alt, or Tab though I do use shift/Ctrl alot.

Murkglow: The Win key isn't an issue since the only finger down there often is the pinky and it has no reason to go right.

Murkglow: I've never had the sticky key problem but then I usually use Shift for weapon swap/alt fire/sprint/hold breath...

Murkglow: none of which require/allow it to be held all that long.

Arm4g3dd0nX: 2c. When someone plays several different games...

Arm4g3dd0nX: they tend to not immediately adapt or sometimes make small errors on key setups.

Arm4g3dd0nX:A minor solution to this is by having just enough keys nearby, but not too many contiguously to "lose your position".

Arm4g3dd0nX: It's basically impossible to find your hand in the wrong resting position...

Arm4g3dd0nX: and you naturally know that no key is more than one key away from resting position when using the numpad.

Murkglow: With WSAD you also keep yourself well positioned due to the differences in size/shape/feel ect. of the Caps Lock key.

Murkglow: You should be more then able to tell if your hand is correctly placed at all times.

Murkglow: And WSAD also has any number of keys no more then one key away (QERFZXC/Tab/Caps/Shift/Space).

Arm4g3dd0nX: Ok, I think I just realized a major reason for the confusion.

Arm4g3dd0nX: You seem to have a very different idea of what the resting position on a numpad is than what it really is.

Arm4g3dd0nX: Ring on 4, middle on 8, pointer on 6, thumb on Del.

Arm4g3dd0nX: Keyboard slid to the left, and left side of the keyboard is pushed up a couple inches.

Murkglow: Indeed I don't use the Num Pad (as I'm sure you could tell)...

Murkglow: so as I mention in a comment I just posted I don't know what your thumb is doing. =)

Murkglow: Also, ESDF is a good method for advanced gamers.

Murkglow: However this requires you move your pinky about more which moves your ring finger a bit more.

Murkglow: But since the pinky is a bit weaker/less reponsive then your other fingers so again it could lead to some slow downs.

Arm4g3dd0nX: FYI, people that use the numpad don't use their pinkies.