A TAPE OF TROM'S LEVEL FIVE

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One of the shortcomings of the original work, "The Resolution of Mind a Games Manual" by Dennis Stephens was that the chapter on TROM's Level Five was too vague as to how it was actually run.  Dennis made up for this shortcoming with this detailed cassette correspondence he sent to his friend Judith.  The new edition of the manual put out by DIY Salvation, "TROM 2023" Has an additional chapter added to it which is a text adaptation of this recording . This text adaptation is also fully illustrated and annotated.

PREREQUISITE STUDY: Read all the material up to and through the chapter entitled "TROM Level Five" of the "TROM 2023" PDF or our online edition. 

OR

Listen to the TROM Mastery Audio Course from the beginning, and it will run right up to this lecture.

The lecture transcript for the raw original recording follows:

Hello, Judith, this is Dennis Stephens here and I'd like to thank you for the very welcome tape I
received today which is the 10th of November 1994. It's a very hot day here in the early summer
in Brisbane today, although from the very welcome thumbnail sketch of your life you sent me
and with your background in Zimbabwe, Rhodesia and in South Africa and also in the outback of
the Kalahari Desert, have I got the word right Namibia? 

Yes, that desert in south-west Africa. You would be no stranger to heat would you? No stranger
to heat at all. So you'd probably be quite at home here in Brisbane on a day like today. 

[Note: Dennis continues with some personal information and dialogue here] 

Yes I'm not surprised to hear Judith that there's very little charge on your case on Levels 2 and 3
of TROM after all the excellent auditing you've had from Leonard [Leonard Dunn]. 

Leonard's  an  old  hand  at  this  game,  he's  been  in  the  game  of  auditing  for  many  years.  I
remember him way back. He was one of my students on course way back in the 1950's, we've
known each other many years Leonard and he's a very, very fine auditor, and a very careful, very
thoughtful technician is Leonard, so you've been in good hands and it's proven itself by the fact
that you sailed through Levels 2 and 3 of TROM. 

The phenomenon you report at Level 4 of TROM of getting some bodily feelings and bodily
sensations and so forth which it's not easy to pinpoint the source of; is not at all uncommon. I
had this phenomenon myself. When you get to Level 5 you will discover the source of them. They
show up at Level 4 but you often, at Level 4, you don't find the source of them. If you do very
carefully timebreak each and every one of these bodily sensations that turn up at Level 4 you
would find that you will be able to timebreak them back out of existence again. 

There's  no  need  to  walk  around  with  these  body  feelings.  You  can  timebreak  them  quite
comfortably. 

Timebreak a Body Sensation 

You simply would experience the feeling in the body then become simultaneously aware of the
feeling and aware of the rest of the universe around you in present time and you would find the
feeling would then come up to a peak and then would slowly fade out. It would go through the
same cycle as anything else that was being timebroken. 

So you could always get rid of these unknown and unwelcome feelings that show up at Level 4 by
timebreaking the sensation, timebreaking the feeling. You were correct to leave Level 4. You got
bored with Level 4, fine that's a sure sign that the level's gone flat. So you got all the gain you
could get out of Level 4 and now you want to move on to Level 5, and that is quite correct, that's
the correct thing to do, and also you've done the correct thing, you have a query on it and you
got in touch with me. 

First of all you took it up with Leonard and now you've decided to come to me to get an answer
to your question. Leonard has helped you as far as he could on the subject and I'll be able to now
give you the rest of the information that you need. So you've done everything exactly right so
far, Judith. 

So congratulations many people in your position wouldn't have done it as correctly as you, but
you've done it exactly right. Now before we precede, Judith, to answer your question, I'd like you
to take out your copy of TROM and turn it to the page with the postulate failure cycle chart on. 

And when you've done that I'd like to make sure that you've got some corrections that I put in.
Some of the early editions of TROM went out uncorrected. Yours almost certainly is corrected
but I just want to be sure that you've got a corrected edition. 

So would you pick up your postulate failure cycle chart and count off from the left the seventh
column. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. The column 7 is the column with all the words overwhelm and
overwhelmed in, that's column 7. 

Now I'll give you the corrections the way the columns should be printed. Row 2B. That's row 2B
column 7 the word in that square is overwhelm and not overwhelmed. Repeat 2B column 7 the
word in that square is the word overwhelm and not overwhelmed. 

Similarly, row 4B column 7 again the word is overwhelm and not overwhelmed. 

Similarly, row 6B column 7 the word in that square is overwhelm and not overwhelmed. 

Similarly, row 8B the word in column 7 is overwhelm and not overwhelmed. 

That's all the corrections, that is the end of the corrections. Now the copy you have almost
certainly has it correctly but if it doesn't have it correctly put the corrections in because it does 

change the sense very slightly of the chart. You might as well get the chart exactly right before
you use it. It's important to get it exactly right. That's why I sent out these corrections. 

There are no other corrections required on the chart. The chart is now exactly as per my research
notes cause I have the copy of the printed thing in front of me here. All right, well now without
more ado we'll go in now and answer your question. I will go through the chart as if I'm the
subject and I'm running Level 5. 

And I'm starting in at Level 1A. I'm starting in at Level 1A and my goals package I'm using is the
basic 'To Know' goals package. Ok? So I'm starting in now at Level 1A. 

Before I start as given in the manual I would timebreak out all the day's activities and also I
would make sure that Levels 1, 2, 3, and 4 have been run to no more change. I wouldn't attempt
Level 5 until those first 4 levels have been run to no more change and also I've timebroken out
the day's activities. 

Establishing a Space in Which to Work 

Right well here we go, Level 1A. The first thing we would need is a little bit of space around us.
Now it doesn't matter which space you use. You can use the space of the present time universe
around you or you can use the space of any past moment in time, it doesn't matter. You're not
limited in any form whatsoever; you just need some space in which to work. 

So it doesn't have to be present time physical universe space. It can be past physical universe
time space, follow me? You just need some space there to work. 

Level 1A 

So we're at Level 1A and the first thing you would do is put up the others postulate there 'Must
be Known', the postulate is 'Must be Known' and that is in the class of not-self. Now, it doesn't
matter where you put the postulate. Most people prefer to put the postulate into a mass. But
there's no reason why you should put it into a mass you can put it into empty space if you want
but most people find it easier to put the postulate into a mass, either a created mass of your
own choice or into a wall, a part of the physical universe or a fence or a passing car or anything. 

It doesn't matter where you put it but the important thing is that it's a 'Must be Known'
postulate and it's in the class of not-self. That is important, that you must be certain that it's in
the class of "others," which I will refer to, for more precision, as the class of "not-self." 

So you will put up that postulate 'Must be Known' in the class of not-self. Then you create the
postulate 'Must Know'. Now that postulate is in the class of "self", that's you, right where you
are. 

It's you holding the postulate 'Must Know'. So you've got 'Must be Known' over that way, origin.
Receipt, you, where you are, you with the postulate 'Must Know' and if you go over to column 8
on the chart you'll see that the level here is 'Forced To Know', and it's you being 'Forced To
Know'. Get that? 

Doesn't  matter  what  is  "known"  you  don't  have  to  specify,  you're  just  working  with  the
postulates. So you would put up 'Must be Known' over that way in the class of not-self. Don't see
yourself over that way doing this. You get yourself right where you are with a 'Must Know'
postulate. 

There's a little danger there that you can say, "Well, I'll get me over that way" well no that's
wrong. You get you right where you are with a 'Must Know' postulate. You understand that? It's
you right where you are creating  a  'Must  Know'  postulate then you simply  timebreak  out
anything that shows up. 

Any sensations that show up, you hold the situation as a cameo, as a scenario, as a scene and you
timebreak out anything that happens, anything that shows up you timebreak it. Timebreak it out
till it's gone away and you put the postulates back up again. 

You put the postulates back up and if more scenes show up from the past you timebreak those
back out, have a good look at them, timebreak them back out of existence. Then put the
postulates back up again and you keep on doing this until you can put those postulates at Level
1A with no more change occurring. 

That you can quite happily put up the postulate 'Must be Known' in the class of not-self over that
way while you're sitting there with 'Must Know' and you have got the idea that you're being
'Forced To Know' and that it's quite ok, nothing happening, and it's all quietened down. 

Right you're now ready to move on. In other words you've started to get bored at that level.
You've done all you can with that level, it's time to move on. 

Level 1B 

So we now move from Level 1A to Level 1B. Now that is signified by you changing your postulate
from 'Must Know' to 'Mustn't Know'. You're still at receipt point but you are changing your
postulate from 'Must Know' to 'Mustn't Know'. The postulate 'Must be Known' is still out there in
the class of not-self but now it's a game. 

We now have a games condition. We now have the opposition. We now have an opposition
situation. We have 'Must be Known' in the class of not-self and 'Mustn't Know' in the class of self
and they are opposing postulates and that is a game situation. So you just hold that; just hold
that situation and timebreak out anything that shows up, anything that shows up, there. 

And you continue with it until there's no more change, you've timebroken out everything and
you quite happily have that situation there where you have 'Must be Known' over there in the
class of not-self and 'Mustn't Know' in the class of self and you can hold that situation and
there's nothing else, it's all quietened down, there's nothing else happening and you're getting
bored with it. And say, "Right, it's time to move on." 

Level 2A 

So you now move on from 1B to 2A. Now this involves going from receipt to origin. There's a
definite change going to happen now between 1B and 2A. When you go from 1B to 2A you start
off by instead of feeling yourself at receipt point you start to say to yourself, "Well now, I'm in
'Mustn't Know' but now I am starting to originate." 

You start to originate in 'Mustn't Know' and drive your postulate 'Mustn't Know' across to the
other person, to the 'Must be Known', there. In other words, instead of him being the originator
and you being at the receipt. At Level 2A it's you the originator of 'Mustn't Know' and you drive
him into the receipt of your pan-determined postulate 'Mustn't be Known'. 

And you're beginning to get at him, you begin to get at the opponent. So it's you at 'Mustn't
Know' and him still holding his postulate of 'Must be Known' but now instead of him being at the
origin point he's at the receipt point. But it's still a game. Again you would do all the necessary
timebreaking. The handling of anything that shows up. Clean everything up till you're quite
bored with that level and can hold Level 2A. 

Level 2B 

Then you would go to Level 2B where now you're going to actually overwhelm the opponent.
You still stay in your 'Mustn't Know' postulate. You're originating your 'Mustn't Know' postulate
at Level 2B and now you drive him. You actually force him. You drive him by sheer power of
postulate; you drive him from 'Must be Known' into 'Mustn't be Known' 

And you make him comply with your pan-determined 'Mustn't be Known' postulate. So he is
driven from the 'Must be Known' he held at Level 2A, he now goes to 'Mustn't be Known' at Level
2B. And Level 2B has you, self with 'Mustn't Know' as the origin and the opponent is at 'Mustn't
be Known' at the receipt point, there. 

So now we've gone through a whole little cycle, haven't we, we've gone through a whole little
cycle. We had the complementary postulates at Level 1A of 'Must be Known' and 'Must Know'.
Now we've gone through two game cycles there and now we've come back to complementary
postulates again but notice that the postulates have changed. 

At  2B  we  have  'Mustn't  Know',  'Mustn't  be  Known'  and  we're  back  with  complementary
postulates again but now you're at the origin point and the 'Mustn't be Known' is at the receipt
point, but again we've achieved complementary postulates. And the level here now, it's not a
game level. This is the overt of preventing from being known. 

Now I really don't have to go any further Judith, because that is a complete little cycle I've run
there in 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B. That gives a complete little cycle. It's actually a quarter of the whole set.
And if you can follow that quarter then the rest of the postulate failure cycle chart is three more
quarters. That all follow the same pattern, they all follow the same pattern as that first quarter.
So if you can follow what I've just given you, you've got it. 

Now I just re-checked over your tape and I think I've answered your question. Your difficulty is a
lack of understanding that you're dealing purely with postulates. That you're not dealing with
effects here on the chart. You're dealing with postulates, that's all your putting up is postulates.
You're not putting up effects. You're not putting up sensations or you're not creating people,
you're not mocking up people, you're not mocking up walls or floors or situations. 

You're simply mocking up postulates and that bugs many people right at the start. They're not
used to working with just postulates. Well that is the whole level of Level 5, is postulates. That's
all we work with at Level 5, is postulates. We don't work with anything else, we timebreak out
everything else that shows up. We only work with postulates at Level 5. 

It's an incredible thing to work with. At first it seems very strange and so forth, and very odd and
peculiar to be just working with postulates but after a while you get used to it and when you get
into Level 5 you get to a point eventually where you wouldn't dream of working with anything
else but postulates because you get the fastest result working with postulates. 

And you always work with just postulates and you simply timebreak out anything else that shows
up, any incidents that show up, any sensations or any emotions or what have you that show up
you simply timebreak them out. So at Level 5 you're working purely with postulates. Once you
grasp that you've got it. You've got it. You really get that, you've got it. You can work then at
Level 5 and realise what you're doing. 

As I said in the write up there, take it steady. You can't overrun these levels at Level 5. If you stay
on a level longer than you need to run it, all that's going to happen is you’re going to get bored.
So boredom is the sign it's time to move on. Nothing terrible is going to happen if you overrun a
level at Level 5 but nasty things can start happening if you leave a level before you should have
left it. 

So it's always best to err on the side of staying on the level a little longer than you need to
because as I mentioned in the write up, if you leave a level before you should have left it you can
get into a lot of difficulty. But I've given you the repair for Level 5. It's in the text. There's the 

repair of what you do if this happens to you. If you're leaving a level before you should have left
it. If you do that you'll know all about it, sooner or later, but there's a repair there and I've
explained that very carefully in the text and there's nothing I need to add on that subject, it's all
thoroughly covered in the write up. 

But that's the only real mistake you can make, is to leave a level before you should have left it.
It's best to err on the side of boredom. Stay with a level till you're so bored with it that you say,
"Oh my God, it's time I moved on. I'm absolutely bored with this. This is getting to easy." 

Opponent's Postulate Won't Move 

Now what happens if you can't get the opponent to move his postulate? Supposing he's got his
postulates stuck there at 'Must be Known' and you can't drive him in, say to 'Mustn't be Known'.
He's a 'Must be Known' and he refuses to budge. Ok, well just simply mock-up lots and lots and
lots of him with that postulate. 

Just keep creating the opponent with that postulate, just keep going. Might take 5 minutes,
might take 10 minutes, 15 minutes, half an hour, just keep creating more and more and more of
him and more and more, an abundance of him with that postulate. 

Eventually you'll be able to change the postulate. So don't quit there. Never feel that there's a
scarcity of postulates here. If a postulate fades out put it back. If it fades out on the opponent
create it back in the opponent. But make sure the opponent's in the class of not-self and you're
in the class of self. 

You are always in the class of self and the opponents always in the class of not-self. You get that?
If your postulates fade out you put it back. If the opponents postulate won't easily change, you
can't push him through the overwhelm, alright, mock-up lots and lots of the postulate he's stuck
in, that he insists on staying in. 

He insists upon staying in 'Mustn't be Known', ok well mock-up lots and lots of that postulate
with the opponent in 'Mustn't be Known', then we timebreak out anything that shows up, and
then we move on. Eventually you'll always be able to move on. 

There's no such thing as getting stuck on the chart. If you get stuck you just simply create your
way out of the stuck situation. You get the idea? Your own creativity will always get you out. You
just simply have to create the stuck point. Keep creating lots and lots and lots of copies of what
is happening... the point that's sticking. Get the idea? 

Then you move on. But I'm sure I mentioned this in the write up. But if I hadn't well I'm
mentioning it now. 

Importance of RI 

The final point I'd like to mention on the running of Level 5 here is the subject of RI. Now as I
mentioned in the write up but I'll mention it again because it's so dreadfully important. Level 5
will not, repeat not; run in the absence of RI. When it all starts to grind and get difficult and get
hard and your field starts to go black and so forth, the most likely explanation is that you've
neglected to run RI. 

If you don't run your RI on Level 5 and run it copiously, the whole thing is going to grind to a
shuddering halt, and you won't know what's happened. You'll think, "Oh my god, I'm... I'm going
mad. It's all falling apart." And all you need to do is just run RI for 5 minutes and it will all come
back right again. So always bear that in mind. It's a good thing to run RI before you start your
session on Level 5, and it's a good thing to run RI between levels on the chart, and it's a good
thing to run RI when the going gets rough, and it's a good thing to run RI at the end of the
session, before you leave the session and end the session. 

In other words you can run it at any time. And don't be sparing on the running of RI. Now I
couldn't over stress the importance of those remarks on this subject of RI. I said it in the write
up, I'm saying it again here now. Run RI. As you get further and further in to Level 5 this need to
run RI lessens, it lessens, and towards the end you can almost do without it but you’re never
completely free of the necessity of running RI. 

The need is greatest at the beginning. When you start Level 5 you have a great need to run lots
of RI. It does chew up your importance's rather murderously, Level 5 does. You've got to repair
them. You've got to repair these importances that you're chewing up. The answer is RI. Ok? 

It's in the write up; I'm just repeating it again to make sure you've got the message. 

Don't Abandon the 'To Know' Goals Package too Soon 

One of the great errors you can make early on in Level 5 is to abandon the 'To Know' goals
package prematurely. That is a very bad mistake. A person starts in on it and goes round the
whole cycle once and says, "Aw well, nothing much happened there and uhh... I think I'll leave the
'To Know' goals package and start going on to the junior goals packages." 

Well that is a definite mistake. You should stay with that 'To Know' goals package until you're so
bored with it that it's coming out your ears. You know? And that's the time to leave it. And that is
a long way ahead I can assure you. That is a long way ahead. There's absolutely no reason why a
person shouldn't stay on that the whole way, that goals package can take you the whole way. 

No other goals package can. All the other goals packages are junior to that one. That is the
senior goals package, that's the granddaddy of them all. There's nothing in any of the junior
goals packages that isn't in that basic 'To Know' goals package, that one's the major one. 

Now that's the one you start with and that's the one you stay with as long as you can. 

Dropping Back a Level 

Never feel ashamed about dropping back to a lower level in TROM. If you have a lot of trouble
with Level 5 then just simply drop back. Drop back to Level 4. You know, if you're having terrible
trouble with Level 5 and it's too hot for you and the going gets really rough and you've done
everything and it's still rough. Ok, just drop back to Level 4. 

You'll find there's plenty of charge that Level 4 will turn up for you, and if Level 4's too tough to
handle  drop  back  to  Level  3.  Just  do  straight  timebreaking,  just  do  a  session  of  straight
timebreaking, and if that's too tough to handle well go back to Level 2 and find some differences
and similarities. You can always drop back, you see. Don't be ashamed to do it. I've done it many
times with great benefit. There's no loss of face here. 

So always be prepared to do that. If the going gets rough at Level 5 drop back to Level 4, if it's
rough at Level 4 go back to Level 3, if it's rough at 3 go back to 2... you'll arrive at a level you can
work at, then you can crawl your way back up the levels again, to get back onto Level 5. That's
the clever way to do it. 

The un-clever way to do it is to say, "Well now I'm at Level 5, I must stay at Level 5, I mustn't go
back that will be a loss of face." No, that's the wrong approach. If you have to go back then you
go back. Get the idea? 

Self-determined and Pan-determined Postulates 

Now finally, Judith, and I've saved this purposefully for the very last, is the subject of the pan-
determined postulates. You didn't mention you're having any difficulty understanding this so I'm
assuming that you’re pretty well straight forward on it, but I will just cover it for you briefly just
to  make  sure,  to  be  absolutely  certain,  that  you're  very  ok  with  this  subject  of  the  self-
determined and pan-determined postulates at these levels. 

Let's go through our levels again now and just make sure that we know what we're doing here.
It's very important that early on when you're working with those goals packages that you put the
pan-determined postulates in place, otherwise you won't know why the postulates change on
the chart. 

The whole thing doesn't make much sense except in terms of the self-determined and pan-
determined postulates so if you try and take the pan-determined postulates out of the equation
the whole thing starts to become rather puzzling. So we have to put them in, particularly early on
in therapy. 

Later on in therapy they'll become so automatic that you'll know they're there, that you don't
really have to bother about them, they're obviously there. You know? But early on you've got to
consciously put them there so that you can thoroughly grasp the reasons why the postulates
change when they change, and this whole subject of overwhelm then starts to make sense. 

Level 1A 

So let's go through our Levels we have 1A. Now at Level 1A the only postulates there are the
opponent's postulates. There's his self-determined postulate of 'Must be Known' and there's you
at your end of the comm. line complying with that. Actually they are both his postulates and they
are his self-determined postulate 'Must be Known' and at your end of the line you're sitting
there holding 'Must Know' which really is his pan-determined postulate, but you're calling it your
self-determined postulate. You see? You've bought it, you've bought the lie. 

So there's only two postulates involved there at Level 1A. 

Level 1B 

As soon as we go to Level 1B, which is a games level, you now stop buying the lie, your self-
determined postulate of 'Mustn't Know' reasserts itself at the receipt point and with it your pan-
determined postulate of 'Mustn't be Known' reappears round the opponent at his end of the
comm. line. At the same time you've now clawed your way out of his pan-determined postulate.
His pan-determined postulate is still at your end of the comm. line and his pan-determined
postulate is 'Must Know' but you're not in it. 

You're not dramatizing it any more but it's still at your end of the comm. line. So at Level 1B
there  are  four  postulates.  There's  the  two  self-determined  postulates  and  the  two  pan-
determined postulates and they're in the positions I've given. 

Level 2A 

Similarly at Level 2A. Level 2A is a games level so the 4 postulates are still present, they haven't
changed. The only difference is that you've moved now from receipt to origin, but there are still
the four postulates in play. There are still the two self-determined postulates and the two pan-
determined postulates in the positions I've just given. 

Level 2B 

Then we move to Level 2B and here we have an overwhelm level. Now what happened here is
that you've now overwhelmed the opponent. He's lost his self-determined postulate; he's now
bought your pan-determined postulate. So there's your self-determined postulate of 'Mustn't
Know' and he's now bought your pan-determined postulate of 'Mustn't be Known'. 

So  there  are  only  two  postulates  on  the  board  and  they're  both  yours.  There's  your  self-
determined postulate of 'Mustn't Know' and there's your pan-determined postulate which the
opponent has bought and he's now in 'Mustn't be Known'. The opponent's postulates have gone.
He's been overwhelmed. 

Whenever the opponent is overwhelmed his postulates are gone, they're no longer in play. When
you get overwhelmed your postulates are gone and only the opponents postulates are in play.
So at the overwhelm levels there's only two postulates there, but at the games levels on the
chart there's always the four postulates, the two self-determined postulates and the two pan-
determined postulates. 

It's very difficult to explain this in words. It's much simpler once you start to put it out there in
your mind and do it. You'll see it immediately. But as I said unless you see the need for these self-
determined  and  pan-determined  postulates,  unless  you  see  why  we  have  to  get  the  pan-
determined postulates, you never understand why the postulates change on the chart and the
whole chart becomes rather meaningless to you. 

But put the pan-determined postulates in, then it starts to make an awful lot of sense. And
suddenly it, clicks and you say, "My god yes, I've got it, I get it, I get the whole thing. I see what
Dennis is talking about." 

After that it's easy. It gets so easy after a while with the pan-determined postulates, they are so
obviously there, you put them there so naturally that you don't have to think about them any
more, you know? They're so obviously there it's like going out shopping in the morning and it's
daylight and so obviously the sun's above the horizon, it's that sort of obvious. 

Still you're always putting the pan-determined postulates there when they ought to be there.
You get it? You never cease to do it, but it becomes second nature to you after a while. It's just
that early on in therapy you must do it very consciously and you must be very consciously aware
of doing it otherwise the chart won't make any sense to you. 

End of tape 

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