TCJ: What drew you to work at the library?

SAR: I saw the position and ... It seemed like projects I could really use to get in touch with different [Philadelphia] communities, so I was attracted, even though it's a new position for the library. Myself and the two other people that were hired at the same time that I was, we're still kind of carving out what the role is and what it means. We're different than the community organizers like Fred.

TCJ: How are you different from the community organizers?

SAR: First of all, we're city employees. They're hired through the Foundation. ... I feel like we have less wiggle room. Whereas I feel like their position is a little more free to actually find out what the issues are in the community and how we can do things to solve them. Our position is more like, we do that, but we also do what we're told to do with it, as opposed to actually responding to what they need. It's our job to kind of translate it to the library, but then the library ultimately still tells us how to give it back to the community, if that makes sense. … Like with the Fund Our Libraries [campaign], we were in a really weird spot. The campaign kind of looked like we were going against the mayor who, he's our boss, what? Like, five times removed? So, it put us in an awkward space. Whereas though the foundation employees, they didn't have that, and they could organize the community.

TCJ: That's really interesting. So how would you describe your time at the library so far?

SAR: I would say so far at the library, it's been a mixture of things. Some of it positive and some of it negative. The negative is like really negative and the positive is positive. 

TCJ: I'm wondering, when you say the negative has been very negative, I presume you're talking about instances of bias or harassment or discrimination, etc. Have you had those experiences at the library? Could you talk to me a little bit about what those experiences have been for you?

SAR: Yes. I have experienced them. My first and worst incident, I was still a new employee with a library. So, I was on probation. On probation, you gotta kinda keep your head down and do your work until you pass probation because they can very well. Like, if you're on probation and you don't pass it, if you previously had a city job, they could send you back to that job. Or if you didn't have a job and you're on probation, and you don't pass, you could be fired, like that's city rules. So you have to be kind of careful because you're being evaluated every step of the way. So I was on probation and I was working at my location and all of a sudden I was told by my supervisor that there were complaints about me at the branch that I smell and I was stinking up the place by the employees. ... So these other grown women didn't talk to me. They went and reported it to my boss that I smelled, and they started to put air fresheners by my desk, soap, light candles and then have really loud conversations in our shared space about how bad it smelled in the work room.

TCJ: Wow. How did that make you feel? What was your reaction at the time?

SAR: Well, first of all, I couldn't believe it. I'm like, wait, I smell? At my big old, 31-year-old age? I was like, wait, like, you know? And it was actually super embarrassing because who wants to be the "smelly kid"? And I'm Muslim, so I thought maybe it's the muslim oils that I wear, because I know some of them are stronger. I'm like, is my oil too strong? Either way, it was super embarrassing to me that they were having these loud conversations right in front of me like, "ugh, it stinks in here." Management did not step in. [My coworkers] put one of those Glade automatic air fresheners where they shoot out the scent ... they put that right at my desk, right above my desk.  They put soap by my desk. I was still on probation, so I'm like, do I bring this up with my union? They went directly to my supervisor. My supervisor is two levels above them. My direct supervisor is their supervisor's supervisor. ... She sat down and talked to me because I think that they might have reported it to their boss and their boss and I, we both report directly to [my boss].  So after that, first of all, [my boss] assured me, like I sit next to you in meetings all the time. We meet every Thursday and we're like right next to each other. You do not smell. I actually asked my other co-workers, like trusted people like ... Am I walking around funky? Like?! And they're like no, like stop, you're being crazy, you don't smell. They're just being racist because they made it clear that they don't like people who are not them. In Northern Liberty and Fishtown there's a huge old timer versus gentrifier neighborhood conflict, so they made it clear that they don't like people who are not them, who are other than them. ... I went out with my sister and she helped me pick out "white woman appropriate" perfume, so that I could just wear it and make sure I last my last two months on probation.

TCJ: After you bought it and started wearing it did the complaints stop? What happened?

SAR: No, no, no. The complaints didn't stop but then I was able to be moved. I could move my work location. ... With my position, I do community work for four different branches, so I got more free rein to bounce around. I was given an office space in a different branch outside the cluster, because that's where there was space. It was space at the Lillian Marrero Branch. ...which isn’t far, but that’s not even my cluster. … I was able to have an office [at Lillian Marrero], but that's what the library does. They move the problem around. So, all of a sudden, I felt like I was the problem because I'm the one that got moved, instead of them addressing the culprit for going around spreading these things about me and treating me like crap. I felt embarrassed. I felt crappy. And the response that I got was, “oh, that's just how they are. Like, we know that they're not good people, but…,”  and I'm like, okay, so? But that's how it was left. "Oh, that's just how they are. We'll let you go to [Lillian] Marrero and you can have office space there and you can be like with the organizers who were there since your work overlaps with theirs and you can be there because it's not far from Fishtown or Port Richmond," which are the main two communities which I needed to build capacity in and do community relations in. There was no solution. It was just, I got to go other places, which is like, okay, thanks for nothing.

TCJ: Ideally for you, how would the leadership of the library look? How would they respond when you're having these  situations?

SAR: They would take immediate action. I'm not saying to jump on anyone's side immediately, but do something. Stop ignoring it. Stop sweeping it under the rug. Because if you ignore bias, racism, harassment, and all the other isms, essentially, you ignoring it is taking the side of the oppressor and the harmer and not even considering the harmed at all. By you not taking action, you're taking a side and that's not okay. So ideally, I would like to see them address things as they come up. I would like to see a change in our culture where these types of attitudes of harassment and bias, where they can't thrive, where they can't live. I'd like to see that in our culture and from our [executive] staff. And that's not what I've seen over my two and a half years here. I feel like, the way we're set up, it's kind of like a breeding ground for harassment and bias, just with all of the the white individuals in all of the leadership positions. The majority of the leadership positions are white people.

TCJ: I would love, actually, if you could contextualize that, because [admin] always talk about how the library has a majority minority staff, but what does that really look like?

SAR: So the majority of the staff that are in the lower paying positions are African-American. I haven't been to every branch, but I can say you can probably count on... I'll be generous and say two hands, how many guards are not black. You can probably count on your ten fingers.

TCJ: You mean across the system?

SAR: From what I've seen, yes. Even in the "white" neighborhoods, they're all black men, and a few women. And I think I saw one white woman guard in North Philly. In the lower paying positions, there are not many people who are not of color. And all of the higher positions, especially the positions that I feel are agents of change, or can be, are all held by white people. A lot of our deputy positions ... they're all held by white people, whereas some of these positions, if they were held by black people, the library would be more inclusive. And generally more lit. I mean [laughs]. Because they have such a deciding factor on what kind of things come to the library, how they come, the roles. What programs we have, what's decided on, what direction we want to go into next. They don't have that level of understanding that people of color [have], unfortunately. What their wants are, their needs, their aspirations. They don't have that. I mean, sorry to say it, but I feel like some of these people are stuck in their white bubble. They work downtown, away from the communities. You don't see them in the neighborhood libraries, so they have no idea what happens in the neighborhood libraries. They come to work, they come to Central, they’re in their white bubble and they're making all these decisions for these neighborhoods of color, about what they could have, what programs they do have, what people are coming, what's allowed, what's not allowed and they don't have that level of understanding. They don't have the cultural competence. ... And that kind of creates the culture that I was talking about, or the breeding ground of bias and harassment, because they don't have that understanding to be able to enforce certain policies or bring certain programs that will foster a more inclusive environment.

TCJ: So, fast forwarding, I'm wondering how these last few months have been for you, working at the library in the time of COVID.

SAR: Actually, I've enjoyed being home. I'm not able to do my full job because a lot of it involves being in the community. But I feel like it was a good break away from all of the, just, crap. I felt very fatigued when we were leaving for COVID, and I feel like during these couple of months, I've been able to kind of regain my strength, kind of recenter, be away from people who are treating me crappy. It's weird, because when I first got there, they were like she smells. This, that and the third. ... They always had something smart to say. Every time I said something, it was just the whole room rolled their eyes. And then once I went away for a while because I was at the other office, and I stopped coming around as much, but I started coming around again, everybody was so friendly. ... But it was nice to be away from that. 

TCJ: Also during this time the Concern Black Workers has been building up. Do you feel like the relief that you've felt or feelings you just described have anything to do with the CBW engaging in this movement?

SAR: I do feel that way. And I feel like, even though we're doing a lot of work, it was necessary work. It's necessary that this gets done. It's necessary that we organize, because if we don't do something, nothing is ever going to change. They're just going to keep moving around those problem employees or saying "that's just how they are" and just excusing all of the bias, harassment and everything. They're just going to excuse it and keep sweeping it under the rug. And it's like, eventually we're, we're gonna, like, combust. So I think it's good that we decided to organize and that it's being addressed. Its been ignored for too long.

TCJ: Do you feel like this movement is part of the larger movement that's happening for black lives?

SAR: I do. I feel like that was one of the things that kind of sparked it. And then with them not having a safety plan and it negatively affecting mostly black people, we're like, hold on, hold on, hold on. Like, no, we can't... I feel like the whole Black Lives Matter movement, what's going on now and George Floyd has given people a lot of courage. And it's like, okay, we can't stand for this anymore. Whether they are Black people or brown people, or even white people who are now like I can't be silent anymore, like I can't. So its given people a lot of courage. Unfortunately, we had to watch a man die on camera for it, but it's given people an inner strength that maybe we didn't know we had.

TCJ: How did it feel to see the authors cancel their events and react in solidarity with you all?

SAR: I think solidarity is wonderful. I think that it's very powerful. It sends a message: how are people outside of the organization standing in solidarity and they get it, they understand what's going on, they're standing with us, when we can't get that from inside. I think it's super powerful. Of course, we want to bring these great cultural things to Philadelphia, but we also can't bring them on the backs of staff who are being mistreated. 

TCJ: Did the administration's reaction to the initial letter surprise you at all?

SAR: I was not surprised, because a lot of the way that the administration deals with things is to ignore it, sweep it under the rug, or not do anything. It's like they've got covers over their eyes and they're like, oh, we didn't see it, so it didn't happen. So I didn't expect for them to be like, oh, let's actually sit down and give a thoughtful response. No, that's not what I expected. And that's just what I've seen being here for two and a half years, which is not a long time. I'm still a newbie. I'm a library baby here. And I'm already disgusted with the way that things are handled and ignored. So no, it did not surprise me. ... We received a response from Siobhan and from the board and I can't even remember what they said. That's how much they say nothing meaningful or thoughtful at all. I can't remember one line or one word at all. But that's to be expected. They don't want to deal with it. But they have to. … Having a voice [with the Concerned Black Workers] is kind of healing. It kind of feels like a weight is lifted off of our shoulders by actually being able to speak and tell our stories and be listened to.