TCJ: What drew you to working at the library?

FG: I was living in New York before I came to the library. I was the director of organizing for a nonprofit there and then I kind of wanted to come home.

TCJ: You're from Philly?

FG: Born and raised ... North Philly. All over North Philly. I lived in South Philly for a little bit of time but mostly North.

TCJ: So being at the library brought you back home? That’s awesome.

FG: It did. So I came home and was looking for a job and saw the library and was like, oh, they're hiring organizers? This is interesting. Let's see what this is. Let's see what’s happening. Honestly, I came to the library because it was the first time I've ever seen a large city institution actually say, we want to go out to the community and ask them what they need and shift the dynamic of how we work. Sometimes, you know, big institutions give stuff, but never really ask what communities need. And so I was like, oh, that's different. I like that. Let's see what happens. So that's really why I came to the Library, because it appeared to want to do something different.

TCJ: Since you're from Philly, did you go to the library when you were younger?

FG: I did. I did go to the [Free] Library when I was young, probably like middle school, because the library was on my way home from school. I did go inside the library for books and stuff, but also the front of the library is just where it went down. [laughs]. … When I got to high school I was way more into organizing, so I didn't really go to the library. I was more at my organizing office.

TCJ: So how would you describe what it's been like for you working at The Free Library?

FG: A struggle. It has been a struggle. You know, I've been organizing since I was 13, working with communities, really trying to figure out like, how do we shift institutions to be better and to really meet the needs of Black and brown folk, and queer folk and poor folk. And, you know, working at the Library is great in the sense of, you know, it puts you right in communities. Libraries are one of the most trusted places in the world, that's still also free and has a lot of good programming, a lot of dope activities for neighborhoods. But being a staff person there is the worst. It is the worst. And I will note this is the first time I've ever worked in a large white-led organization. I've always ever worked in smaller, people-of-color led nonprofits. So coming to the library was such a huge culture shock. Microaggressions, the way people treat each other. It was ridiculous. 

My first day of work at the library system … I'm sitting at my desk, I got my headphones in. I'm listening to music, you know, I'm doing a quick little search on the internet, [thinking] let me start my community maps, and this white woman sitting next to me is like, “Can you turn your music down? I can't concentrate.” And I'm like, “what?” I got headphones in my ears. They're not that loud, and they're the headphones that go inside your ear, with a little plastic [cap] to actually stop sound from leaving. And I'm like “what?” and then you know, I'm like alright fine. It's my first day. Let me not go there on my first day of work. I just got here. So, I'm nice. I'm like alright, no problem. I turn [the music] down. 

Later, I walk past her desk and this woman is playing games on her computer. … And I'm just like, are you serious? like you did that for what? Just to be white and show a little bit of power, which you really didn't even have because I could have completely ignored you but I'm a nice person, so I decided not to. And it's only gotten worse from there. My very first day I had to deal with microaggressions from white people who were being ridiculous. It has gotten so much worse the longer I've been there. 

TCJ: Have you experienced, like bias or discrimination? I've been told microaggressions are common place, but have you experienced any bias? And how are these experiences dealt with? 

FG: Whoo. Let's see, where do I start? It's so bad because there's so many. So … the person in charge of neighborhood library services, runs all the neighborhood branches in the city, I was sitting in a meeting with her around a program for police brutality, conversations between police and like communities of color. Because of my background and doing police reform work and having done that type of conversation before, they asked if I could participate and engage in a conversation. I was like, Sure. So first and foremost, she didn't want to have this conversation in neighborhood libraries. She was like, no one told me, which I don't think was accurate, but no one told me. Okay, fine. 

So [at the meeting] I'm talking about, what does it mean to create a safe space? Like if you want to do this [program] cool, but it has to be safe for communities of color. Police officers, they’re safe right, like, in this kind of a conversation they’re already safe by nature of who they are, and what they do. So, I'm being really thorough, like it needs to be safe. We need to ensure that people aren't coming in here talking about they can shoot unarmed Black men in the back. 

And then she stops me. And she says, we've got to create a space for divergent opinions. And I'm like, so... when you say divergent opinions, are you saying, because I'm trying to be really clear, and I'm trying to give her an avenue to be like, oh, I misunderstood, like I'm trying to give benefit of the doubt. So she goes, um, no, we have to pave the space for divergent opinions. And I responded, it's okay for someone to come into the [Free] Library and say “You can shoot unarmed Black people in the back, unarmed Black men in the back?” 

And then she cited the American Civil Liberties Union's stance around freedom of speech. And I said, Yeah, I get freedom of speech, but you also can't yell fire in a movie theater. Right? No, like no. So, now I'm rebranding. We're talking about hate speech. And she's like, well, it's a divergent opinion. And the ACLU would hold us to the fire if we said we couldn't create a space where people can say that. I'm like, so wait, so let me be clear, you're saying that it is okay for someone to come into this building and say, I can get shot as a Black man, can get shot in the back by police officers with no weapons, unarmed, minding my business. And she's just like, it has to be a space for all opinions. Even if they're divergent. And at that point, I was just like, goodbye. And there were other people there…

TCJ: So with that incident, like did you just kind of like, take it, think about it and tell people about it? Or did you escalate it?

FG: So funny enough, I didn't have to escalate that one.

TCJ: Wow, what happened? 

FG: So [two other white administrators] were also in the meeting and pretty much told her, that's really racist. What you're saying is really wrong. It's really problematic. So [one of those administrators] actually filed a grievance against her. And so we went through this whole investigation process. They had me write up a statement. I got interviewed by Joe Benford, who's like the second command inside the library, and Leslie Walker, who is the chief of staff for Siobhan, and nothing. … 

I had to have been out on the job for maybe a month and a half in 2017. I just got to the library. This was like my first impressions of this system. ... And it is in this timeframe of, you know, we're seeing Eric Garner, Trayvon Martin and Philando Castille. It is during this time, right, of an elevated awareness of the deaths of unarmed Black men, which is why this program is happening, right, is because all these things are happening in the country and a need to elevate the conversation here. And so, it's in this frame of like, what is- what's wrong with you? what's wrong with y'all? And so we got this email from [Free Library President] Siobhan in like, December. We're all like, on vacation. It's Christmas. I think this [incident] took place in August. And so, you know, months later, we get an email from Siobhan, that's like, you know, what she said was wrong. It was jacked up, basically. But there's no actions to be taken. No repercussions.

TCJ: Now is that the case that [councilwoman] Cindy Bass was referencing during the hearing last year?

FG: It was. Yes.

TCJ: Wow. I'd heard about that incident, but had no idea that was you. So what was it like for you then being in the room when Cindy bass and Councilwoman Blondell Reynolds-Brown questioning Siobhan last spring about this? What was going through your head at the moment? 

FG: Get her, girl. Get her. Y'all see what we're talking about? Like, she's got to go. It was literally one of those moments of like, now what are you going to say? How are you getting out of this one? What are you going to do now? Like, congratulations, all of your dirty laundry is now being aired out for the world to see. What are you gonna do? And literally nothing, nothing happened. 

I will say during this time, my supervisor tried to encourage me not to go as hard as I was planning to go. It was weird attempts like, you're new here, and like trying to calm me down, and it's not the first time she's done it. I normally have really pretty long nails and sometimes…

TCJ: The first time I met you, I noticed that, actually.

FG: [laughs] Yeah, I like to keep it flowing. So, I'm sitting there, so she comes to me one day and she's like, oh, you have really long nails. I'm like yeah. Thank you. She's like, well, why? I'm like, what do you mean, why? I like long nails. She was like, “Are you a performer?” No. What do you mean, am I a performer? Like what you wanted to ask me is, was I a drag queen? That's what you wanted to ask. That's literally what you wanted to ask me, if I was a drag queen. And I guess you thought maybe it was more respectful to ask me if I was a performer? 'm like, how did my nails get me to drag queen? What? How is that even any of your business? Unacceptable. You don't get to walk around and ask me these kinds of questions. Like no. 

TCJ: I'm wondering how these last couple of months have been for you, working in this time of COVID, and I’m curious about the climate within the Library?

FG: I mean, if you were a fly on the wall... In terms of morale, morale is horrible. Morale is low. No one really trusts the administration or the boards, nor really trust our leadership at all. And, and you can see it. Every day there is some message challenging the administration, asking questions. We had these two town halls where it was literally like, why are we even here? Like there's absolutely nothing useful coming out of this. It's been so pointless, like completely pointless, and even ... 

Well, two things. One, we used to have this thing called All-outlook on our computers. It allowed us to send emails to everyone in the system. Right before we left for COVID everyone was on All Outlook sending emails around closing. We're like why are we still here? Nobody can come into the libraries. Why are we here? We need to be home. This is not smart. This is not safe.  Everywhere is shutting down. And it's not the first time we used All Outlook as a tool to hold the administration accountable for their misconduct or lack of caring, And so we went on COVID break, and then they took [away] our access to All Outlook, like they completely took our access, so we no longer have access to being able to organize around it or use it to organize and share our thoughts. But just like any major institution with tons of bureaucracy, there's a way around it to be able to still send messages to everyone. And so, we started to utilize that. 

So [one administrator] created this post around the re-opening plan. On this thread... people were sending all these questions. So she decided to respond and tell everyone to take the conversation off this All Outlook message and go to our staff forum. Our staff forum is another space where staff can have conversations, but not everyone has access to it or knows how to access. And so I responded, actually, I think it's important that we actually keep the conversation here, this way it's transparent. And the only time staff actually get answered is when we're on All Outlook and we're holding the administration accountable. … It's important for us to hold this conversation here. She responds to me and is like, oh, no, we need to keep this conversation professional, there should be no snark in the conversation. And so I kindly responded, I'm sorry. What was snark? What was unprofessional? Like, how dare you attempt to tone police me or try and silence me when I've made a statement that was completely valid, like you will not do that to me. I refuse that. She responded to that with, she thinks I'm very thoughtful and she knows I put a lot of energy and thought into my words. And this very kind of like, white tear, guilt kind of thing. And she even said, I knew this was gonna get taken the wrong way. So I responded, you know, that's ridiculous, like, if you knew it was going to get taken the wrong way and still responded, that is your white privilege showing up. You shouldn't have responded at all. Like, not at all. And she tried to apologize and so I didn't accept her apology because it doesn't make sense to accept an apology for something that keeps happening over and over and over again. 

And so I think part of what I mean COVID did in this moment, right is just exacerbate all the things that we've been experiencing, all the things that we've been seeing. And we're done. Like we're not taking it anymore. Like nope. Mmm-mm. We just won't take it. So I think that's what we're seeing now … every single day there is like 15 messages of like, what is this? Like Why? I was on Twitter earlier and realized that the library has two new hashtags. One is #SiobhanResign and the other one is #SiobhanReardonResign. 

TCJ: Speaking of Twitter, I'm wondering how it felt to see authors like Colson Whitehead canceling events in solidarity, like how did that feel?

FG: It was amazing. We're all working, and we're organizing stuff. And then a colleague sent me a picture of the tweet, like Colson just canceled his event and we were like, wait... what? Oh! Yes! Okay. ... So then, then it was like, another author cancelled and it was like oh! We were mad hype. We're like, yo, we need one or two more and this is national news. And then all of them canceled. Then we see Colson Whitehead in Entertainment Weekly and [we're featured] in the Washington Post. And we're just like aye!  Not only are we seeing authors cancel, the teen [social justice] Symposium that was supposed to be happening, they canceled. ... And so I think, for us it's like, yes. Funny enough, I actually had a conversation with a board member yesterday who pretty much was like, Siobhan has a lot of support with the Board of Trustees. And so that's the body that can actually fire her. He's like, yeah ... you guys might want to change your demands. What? We've got to change our demands? Like, why are you telling this to us? Like, why are we sitting here having a conversation? You called us because you wanted to provide a response to our Open Letter to the board of directors and to Siobhan, and your response is change your demand? No. We're not changing our demand. And that for me says that y'all are scared, right? You have no idea what to do. Because this has gone way beyond your control. When you're hiring corporate crisis firms to write your letters, um…

TCJ: Can you kind of walk me through what the debacle is around Siobhan's response letter and the hired crisis management firm? Why is that important, why does staff care? 

FG: We wrote our open letter, our second open letter that we sent out. We're waiting for responses. We share our stuff with the media. For us, it's a way for us to be able to, one, be fully transparent with the community. But it's also a power move for us, like it applies pressure on to the administration and to the board to take it seriously. You can't sweep this under the rug anymore. Everybody knows what's happening. And so [Siobhan] decides to send us the letter in response. And mind you, I didn't even find this, another librarian found this. ... And these are information gathering people for a living. So, one, people came for her because she sent a Word document. It was like, yo, you can't even send us like a PDF? Like a Word document we can edit. So then people decided, oh, well, let's go look at the metadata. And I don't know who did this, but a librarian decided to like go and look it up. And mind you, Concerned Black Workers, we weren't even responding to [her letter]. We all read it. We looked at it. We were like, this is not what we asked for. This is clearly some placating that doesn't work. Whatever. We're going to keep moving forward with our strategy and pushing for her resignation. And so they posted [the metadata information] on our staff web forum and sent it to all the people in the library. And everybody was like, she can't even write her own letter? This letter is supposed to show that you care about your workers. Clearly, you don't care enough to write a letter to us. You can't directly do this? Why are you here? You obviously can't do your job, that you have to hire all of these consultants to do this work for you. And then how much are you paying them? 

TCJ: What are your thoughts, in general, about how the administration is responding to all this and specifically like how Siobhan has responded to all this?

FG: It's so funny because I was having this conversation yesterday. Siobhan could have been seen as, like, the dopest head of a major institution like in this city. Right? She could have, even with all the press, she could have stepped out and said, You're absolutely right. I hear their demands. Here's what I'm doing to meet their demands. [She] could literally have set this stage for how to work with your workers in this moment. We know there's this huge political moment that is happening across this country. And you could have been at the forefront. … People would have fought tooth and nail for you. And instead, you decided to follow the status quo, BS of the world. And now you're getting dragged through the mud. We're watching other institutions, other city institutions like the school district, go, oh, we need to go back on our plans for a reopening, because they don't want to look like the Free Library of Philadelphia. People are going back to be like, yo, let's make sure we are talking to people, that we've talked to our workers. We do not want to be national news in this way. Especially right now. Especially in this particular political moment. You do not want that look. I’m like, had you done this right, you would have been like, you literally could have gone anywhere. And done anything. Like you could have ran for city council and won because you actually got it right. But because you've chosen to hire consulting firms and to ignore your workers, we are where we are now.

TCJ: How do the boards fit into these issues that you all are having?

FG: So, the Library has two boards. One is the Board of Trustees, which governs the library and has the power to fire Siobhan. The other one is our board of directors, which is over the Foundation. And so the person we talked to was from the foundation board, and he basically was like I had no idea any of this was going on. And things of this nature, in terms of employee complaints wouldn't go to their board, that would go to the Board of Trustees. And then he was like, I work full time I'm on the board and I have a family. My response to him was, I've sat on boards before. Like, this is not my first rodeo. I've had a full time job where I was traveling across the country. I have a family. Like, I have a very full life and any board I sat on, I knew exactly what was happening inside the organization. That's part of your responsibility as a board member. And he's just like, well, we just didn't know like, that's just not stuff that comes to our board. He heard about the conversation with Siobhan and like Cindy Bass and saw the paper. So if you saw those things, how did you not know? But you had no idea. And in fact, you called us on behalf of the Black board members. Not the full board, the Black board members. That's a problem. For me, that says it's either complete neglect which is problematic or you just don't care, which is problematic. So anyway you look at it like y'all are a problem. You are a problem.

TCJ: Ideally, to you, how would library leadership look? And how would they respond to these issues that are raised?

FG: Look, we are seeing Karens get fired for getting on the phone and calling the cops on unarmed Black people; for not wearing masking, going into stores and having tantrums. Why would this be any less severe? It shouldn’t be. And so for me the board of trustees would be like Siobhan, you got one of two options: you either resign or we’re going to fire you. We cannot contine to allow this to happen as an instituion of learning, and development  and educating people, we ourselves are marching around like it’s 1940. No. That’s unacceptable. The fact that youre not willing to actually respond or engage your staff; you gotta go. And then, the entire executive team who has supported Siobhan, y’all gotta go. Y’all are the holders of the culture of, well not the only holders of the culture of this organization, but you set the standard. And your standard is not good, so y’all got to go. And the board of directors and the board of trustees, you’re all complicit in racism. And you’re all silent. And your silence is part of the problem that we face in this country every single day. And I’m sure we can find people that are highly qualified to run this organization and will probably run it a hell of a lot better than it’s being run right now.