Wrapping my mind around video exporting

Who has done video exporting and can answer some simple questions.

All animations I have done have some "ISSUE" or another, I feel I have tried every combination of resolution and file type and still can not get a clean (unFlickered) render.

My final output is DVD coming from Adobe Priemere or Encore.

1. AVI or Sequential images, if images which file type?

2. Does animation (AVI) use sqare or rectangular pixels(pixel aspect ratio)...Video or VideoD1 720x480 or 720x486

3. Can sequential images work for smooth animation?

4. Is .TIF an uncompressed format?

5. If .tifs are uncompressed can you export larger file, say double (1440x960) and reduce the flicker effect that happens on all verticle lines that are within 1 pixel?

6. Can anyone beat the flicker effect?

7. Can someone let me know there export pipeline for Professional quality animation playback?

Thanks in advance for any help as I'm about to throw my computer out the window.

wowsers, I thought I could help, but I think I have not attempted this level of video detail yet. Sorry,

Chris Fullmer

When we get an answer of "yes" on this one (6.)... hoooo boy! I think that there will be great rejoicing!

I think I might know the answer to some of these. I'm on a mac, though, which exports .mov files instead of .avis - some of the issues might be a little different.

1. Sequential images - AVI's will (almost) always be compressed, so you'll lose detail. Even on the 'uncompressed' setting, I think you still lost some colour depth. For an image sequence export, anything that's uncompressed (anything other than a jpeg, basically) should be fine.

2. Unless you specify otherwise, the pixel aspect ratio should be 1.00 (square). I don't remember seeing an option to export anamorphic, so I'm not even sure if SU can manage non-square pixels.

3. In post-production (i.e high-end 3d rendering), movies are ALWAYS stored as image sequences. There is no reason why an image sequence shouldn't give a smooth animation.

4. Again, unless you specify otherwise, .tif files are uncompressed.

5. I expect this would work, though you'd have to anti-alias the image as you reduced it, otherwise the jaggies would appear again.

6/7 Erm... not sure. I've never had to export a 'professional' quality DVD movie from SU. It sounds a little bit like using a motorbike to pull a caravan (no, I couldn't think of a better analogy than that...), but your 'massive sized tif' export pipeline might work...

Let us know how you get on, oh, and buy another hard drive. If your movie is longer than a few minutes, you might just need it...

Take care

AJ

Quoting bb3d:

Who has done video exporting and can answer some simple questions.

All animations I have done still can not get a clean (unFlickered) render.

My final output is DVD coming from Adobe Priemere or Encore.

6. Can anyone beat the flicker effect?

7. Can someone let me know there export pipeline for Professional quality animation playback?

Thanks in advance for any help as I'm about to throw my computer out the window.

Keep your computer. You are on the right track. It is difficult because a $6,000- personal computer is less purpose built for post-production than a $750,000 Edit Droid workstation or services such as ILM and Pixar provide...

Try this:

-) Create your own "lab" experiment of a single second of intended finished product to test with, or lab of a 5 second output to test with. And stick to that.

-) NTSC video frame rate of 29.978 fps from the beginning of creation through the end of post.

-) Frame rate: holding a 12 fps frame-one jpeg open, for 1/12 of a 29.978 fps NTSC DVD video frame, well... flicker (mathematical interpolation).

-) Keep your shape square at first.

-) Included colors: look into the NTSC color pallete, or colors that are within the NTSC ability to reproduce without interpolation (estimating a simlar substitute), and stay within that color pallette throughout, beginning to end.

-) "frame" your finished product in a black border (closest color to off for the retrace mechanical effort...)

-) Beware the "personal computer technology of compression" during ANY of your preproduction and post production steps, as the de-compression phase takes TIME. Time means waiting, and waiting means a different reason for flicker...

-) Locate ANYONE else's video that runs fine in your intended output format, and that has similar content in it to your own, and chase down their pre and post production standards from them.

To understand how to succeed in exporting high quality video, you will first have to undertand the final process (broadcasting on a TV, or from a DVD) and from that point, you will need to identify and understand the highest-quality common-denominator of the processes involved from production, through post, to viewing. Sorry if this sounds long-winded.

Vertical and Horizontal Re-Trace: A monitor needs to "shut off" it's "drawing of an image" to draw another one. This process is handled in two steps called both "Horizontal Blanking" and "Vertical Blanking". These two process(s) occur in a complicated sequence called color framing and fields, but at the end of the curve its though of by us as "each frame". The important point to recognize about Blanking is that the electron gun that is drawing on your monitor screen (in typical monitors and TVs) as well as the actual color of any given pixel (on newer LCDs and Plasma screens), is that the electron gun actually colors a pixel black, or white, or heats up a colored pixel(s) to create the color. As that gun physically travels back to the top of the monitor, for example, "ya gotta shut the gun off" or it will draw a long diagonal black line from the bottom to the top (just and example).

Refresh Rate: It all comes down to cycles per second. 1) of your eyes to be able to detec out of sync blanking. 2) of your monitor to be able to generate a consistent blanking your eyes cannot detect (in sync with). 3) of the display engine (application such as quicktime or wmp) to handle blanking in-time with the physical hardware monitor. 4) Of the file format and saved file frame rate, plus that saved file format's need to decompress for display (waiting) and so on). Of the original frame rate (to allow blanking to occur normally) to allow the display engine to not interpolate or estimate. etc..

So, "flicker" is caused by the inability of the monitors "mechanicals" to properly shut the gun off, to retrace either horizontally or vertically, in preparation for drawing the next line. In technical terms, a flickering video has poor quality vertical blanking, or has poor quality horizontal blanking. On the surface we kind of generalize this as a frame-rate problem, which is a bit misleading for troubleshooting efforts.

I have to get back to work, but if this discussion wants any more progress on this point from me, then please ask here, or I will assume this is too long-winded or too technical (or WRONG! hehe) for this forum discussion.

FYI, high end animation stations are hooked into something called a "sync-signal" to a "control crystal color black" that allows them to record to tape or broadcast in perfect sync to NTSC, or PAL or whatever. Computers use monitor refresh rate (on the other hand), sooo...

=:-)

Respectfully submitted for consideration (sorry it is long winded),

Bree

Maybe I understood the original post wrong - by 'flicker' do you mean:

1. A pulsing, strobing effect over the whole image (like a movie projector playing too slowly).

OR

2. A 'buzzing' effect caused by the movement of low-res 'jaggies' on black lines and sharp edges?

I assumed you meant (2), because I've never had any 'flicker' problems like Bree describes. If your problem is actually (1), then ignore my post - I got the wrong end of the stick!

Take care

AJ

Alex, Bree, and AJ your response is GREATLY appreciated!

Alex: I think I will stick with sequential tifs as I have had to many times when an avi gets over 2 gigs and cannot be played back, do you know of any programs (free?) that will load frames into RAM and playback at no loss of framerate. Somtimes these big sequences even slow down (fps)in adobe packages for me. I used to use Commotion to load frames and playback, but that was in school...

Bree: wowsers I think would be a good terminology...that is some serious discussion on NTSC production what is your background? I think I should have posted an example of video to show my problem(its kinda big though and I dont have webspace to post)...but you have surely given me some great information on a subject I know little about. I tried to follow as best I could! Thanks!

AJ: #2 jaggies on black verticle lines and some horizontal stairstepping as well

off to the lab...Thanks again!

bb

For a FREE player / compositor, you could try Jahshaka. They've just released Jahplayer, which can play back HD frames real-time. The application itself is still buggy as hell, but the player works just great.

Download HERE

(I don't seem to remember how to simplify links i.e. 'HERE' instead of displaying the whole line - anyone know?)

EDIT: I do now - thanks Chris

Thanks AJ I tried Jahshaka without any tutorial and could get it going. I will try again when I have a few hours to learn a new nle/compositor.

One more question. Does anyone know if when exporting animation @ 1440x960 to sequential .tifs if the line thickness increases, mine looks more like profile edges is on, but in actuallity they are turned off.

To post a "simplified link":

[noparse]Sketchup

That code will give you:

Sketchup

Chris

you might want to check that link i think you mistook an h somewhere...its talking about cracked software/cd, somthing we might not want to solicit on the SU site ;)

bb

bb3d,

How large a file size is a one second clip exported as a QuickTime Movie? (looping QT movie).

Just curious if that kind of short clip is postable enough to see the flickering artifact thing. My background has been web development for about 15 years, and professional music video editing before that (in Hollywood!). I love to say "in Hollywood" because that makes it sound like I was a bigshot, even though I wasn't. hehehe ( I was doing that in Hollywood, but I wasn't a bigshot, that is).

=:-)

Oh, and does it exhibit the same problems if you export a smaller physical dimension to test with? say, 320 pixels wide or so?

Bree

oops, thanks bb3d. The link is fixed now. :)