1851 Census - Cwm Farm, Abbey Dore

Assuming Thomas Roberts was a true Uncle, he must have been a brother of Nancy and this census shows Nancy to have been born in Ewyas Harold around 1788-1789 so this must have been Nancy Roberts who was christened in 1788. Thomas must have been another son of Thomas and Margaret and he says he was born in Ewyas Harold but his christening is not recorded there.

It seems that this Thomas Roberts died in 1855, aged 74 or 75 (I'm going to have to check this again as I seem to have different ages in different notes), and was buried at Kenderchurch on the 21st of February next to John and Elizabeth Crump who were Margaret's parents. Since people were often buried in family plots it is quite likely that Thomas was related to the Crumps and so was probably another child of Thomas and Margaret.

Trying to find more about John's parents, there is only one Thomas Roberts marrying a Margaret Thomas anywhere in that area at the time that I have been able to find. Thomas marrying Margaret Crump at Kenderchurch on the 12th of May 1777. Their first child, John, was christened at Kenderchurch on the 8th of March 1778 but died a year later and was buried at Kenderchurch on the 28th of May 1779. In 1782 another son, William, was buried at Kenderchurch on the 5th of June.

So Thomas would seem to be the eldest surviving son and the full family that we know of is -

Thomas ROBERTS⁴ = Margaret??¹

/-------------^------------\

| |

John Nancy^{1 2} = Thomas PROSSER

|

x 1788, 10 Aug¹ |

Ewyas Harold |

m 1813, 12 May, Hampton Bishop

/---------v---------v-------v----------v--^------v-----------v------------v---------\

| | | | | | | | |

Elinor⁴ Margaret⁴ Thomas² Ann??² John^{2 4} William² Elizabeth^{4 2} Joseph² Hester²

/Esther⁴

1814⁴ 1815⁴ 1817⁴ 1820/23 1822^{2 4} 1824^{2 4} 1826⁴² 1829^{2 4} 1832^{2 4}

11 Mar 10 Jun 31 May 24 Jan 8 Aug 17 Sep 1 Dec 6 May

Kilpeck⁴ Kilpeck⁴ Kilpeck⁴ E.H² E.H^{2 4} E.H^{2 4} E.H⁴² E.H^{2 4} E.H^{2 4}

Grandchildren - William² ,b 1838/9² , Dulas² Margaret² ,b 1839/40² , Ewyas Harold²

¹ - Parish Regs/BMD Cert/St Cath index ² - Census Returns/Tithe Returns

³ - Family Documents and members ⁴ - IGI

Suggested Family of John Roberts

I think Thomas and Margaret must have had other children as there are gaps from 1778 to 1786 and 1791 to 1797.

I have not found the deaths of Thomas or Margaret.

A further check of the Kilpeck parish register index entries combined with the census entries gave the following tree. There was also a marriage of a Thomas Prosser to Ann Roberts at Hampton Bishop a year before their first known child was born which may be Thomas and Nancy's wedding - it is not in the immediate area but I have not found any other possible entries.

John Roberts moved from Kilpeck to St Margarets in 1813 or 1814 so it is possible that Thomas and Nancy Prosser moved to the farm that he vacated at that time at Kilpeck.

Thomas ROBERTS4 = Margaret??1

x 1756,23 Jan4 } x 1755,27 Apr,

Ewyas Harold } Kenderchurch

m 1777, 12 May, Kenderchurch1

/----------v---------v-------------v======'-----v---------v----------v-----------\

| | ?? | } | | | |

John1 Thomas William John1 Nancy1 Betty1 Margaret1 William1

x 1778, b~1780 x 1786, 8 Oct1 b 1791 x 1800,

8 Mar1 /832MI Ewyas Harold x 1788, 3 Jan1 x 1797, 12 Feb1

Kender- E H2 i 1782 m 11 Jul 1810, 10 Aug1 x 20 Feb 29 Jan1 Ewyas

church d 1855 5 June Kentchurch Ewyas Ewyas Ewyas Harold

i 1779, 21 Feb Kender- d 1840, 31 Dec Harold Harold Harold i 1800,

28 May Kender- church1 i 1841, 3 Jan, 30 Mar1

Kender- church1(MI) Grosmont Kenderchurch

church1 Age 74/75

Sources 1 = Parish Registers/Bishop's Transcripts 2 = Census Returns

3 = Family Documents and members 4 = Genealogical Index (IGI)

MI = Monumental Inscriptions/Graves

Family of John's sister - Nancy

The family seems fairly well off so it is possible that some of them made wills which, if they can be found, usually give information on children and other family members. I have checked for these but not found any so far.

John Roberts married Sarah Prosser by licence so I had a look at the record of it at Hereford Record Office. I thought licences often gave more details about relations and would have said who the Thomas was who witnessed the wedding but it was of little use.

Official copies of Parish Registers were made annually and sent to the Bishop - these are now at the National Library of Wales and they clarified some of the points that were not clear in the Parish Registers but didn't contain an entry for Thomas junior's christening. The Bishop's Transcripts have survived for dates before the beginning of the Parish Register but there aren't any Roberts entries shown in the parish at the earlier dates.

There are still a number of sources to check that might give some more information and clarify some of the problems above.

In the part of Kenderchurch graveyard where Thomas Roberts is buried there are some gravestones that are unreadable. If there is a map of the graveyard it might indicate who was buried in these graves.

The local Poll books list a Thomas Roberts at Ewyas Harold but it does not give any information to identify which one.

The Roberts name is not common in the area so it will not take too long to search the local census returns for all Roberts entries which may help piece together the family groups but I have not done this yet.

John's Grandparents?

Assuming that Thomas and Margaret are the right parents we can start looking for John's Grandparents.

Maternal Grandparents - Crump

Margaret's family are fairly easy because she had a rare maiden name, Crump.

John CRUMP = Elizabeth DWYER

b~1715/16(MI) } b~1709/10 (MI)

m 1749, 1 Mar, All Saints, Hereford

d 1788, 13 Feb Age 72 (MI) } d 1785, 14 May Age 75(MI)

i Kenderchurch } i Kenderchurch

/---------------v-------'======v---------------\

| | } |

Elinor⁴ John⁴ Margaret¹ Mary⁴

x 1749,11 Mar! x 1752,24 May x 1755,27 Apr, x 1757, 13 Jan

Kentchurch⁴ Kentchurch⁴ Kenderchurch Kenderchurch

It was not unusual for the bride to be pregnant when a couple got married but in this case their first child was christened 10 days after they married though it is possible that the child was born before the marriage. There is probably a story behind why they left the wedding so late which we will presumably never know.

It is quite possible that they were from the Kentchurch area and moved to Hereford for a while to cover up the situation, returning soon after the wedding but I have not been able to trace the family any further back.

Trying to find Paternal Grandparents – Roberts

Tracing the family history further back is more difficult because we do not have census information to help link people to their marriage and christening records and so identifying the correct christening for John Roberts of Tressenny is not easy. (A lot of this section gives information on Roberts families living in the area and my deductions on the most likely relationships. I am not sure how clearly I have been able to put this information (re-reading it I had to use a pencil and paper to work through my deductions) and you may want skip to the sections on John's son, John of Little Birches).

It is not surprising that the Roberts Grandparents are harder to identify. This time we do not have a date of birth for Thomas senior and there are a number of possible candidates even if we limit the search to the local area.

To research this I collected all Thomas Roberts christening's in the area that could be Thomas snr who married in 1777. I also collected all the adult Thomas Roberts' who were around who could be our Thomas snr, either from marriage entries or who were named as the father at a christening. I then tried to link up the lists to see if I could remove some of the potential candidates from the list of christenings. Usually this would achieve little because some would die young and others may remarry so the two lists couldn't be linked. In this case the lists do seem to match leaving only 3 possible christenings that could be our Thomas, only one of those seeming likely (and that result may be corroborated by the Land Tax Returns below).

Thomas Roberts christenings near Ewyas Harold were -

Entry Notes below

son of Philip and Ann christened 25 Mar 1704 at Grosmont } See

son of Thomas and Elizabeth christened 30 May 1713 at Kentchurch } A, B + G below

son of John christened 8 Mar 1722 at Grosmont }

son of Joseph and Margaret christened 11 Dec 1737 at St Weonards C

son of Phillip and Mary christened 26 May 1745 at Kentchurch D

son of John and Jane christened 23 Jan 1756 at Ewyas Harold G

son of William and Ann christened 26 Feb 1758/9 at Grosmont G

son of Thomas and Elizabeth christened 14 May 1761 at Kenderchurch F probably too young

son of John and Sarah christened 25 Nov 1764 at Garway }

son of John and Ann christened 16 Aug 1767 at Kentchurch } E Too young

son of John and Mary christened 7 May 1771 at St Weonards }

I have attempted to identify each of these Thomas' by trying to link them to their marriages and their children's christenings. The Thomas' who married or were fathers at christenings in the area were-

A Edward son of Thomas Roberts christened 28 Oct 1750 Grosmont

B Thomas married Elizabeth Lewis 20 Nov 1752 Abbey Dore

B James son of Thomas and Elizabeth christened 24 Dec 1752 Kentchurch

B Elizabeth dau of Thomas and Elizabeth christened 21 Mar 1757 Kenderchurch

B Thomas son of Thomas and Elizabeth christened 13/14 May 1761 Kenderchurch

C1 Thomas and Hannah parents of Hannah christened 20 Aug 1758 St Weonards

C2 Thomas married Mary Wall 12 Jun 1766 St Weonards

D Thomas married Elizabeth Harper 12 Feb 1770 Kenderchurch

Children of Thomas and Elizabeth christened at Ewias Harold -

William 1777, Richard 1780, James 1782, Margaret 1786

Thomas married Margaret Crump 12 May 1777 Kenderchurch

John son of Thomas and Margaret christened 1778 at Kenderchurch

Children of Thomas and Margaret christened at Ewias Harold -

John 1786, Nancy 1788, Betty 1791, Margaret 1797, William 1800

Thomas married Jane Watkins 1784 at Llanvihangel Crucorney

Thomas and Mary parents of Anne christened 1808 Cwmyoy

(A) The Thomas who had a son christened at Grosmont in 1750 must have been born before 1737 so must be one of the first three in the list of christenings; probably the one christened at Grosmont.

(B) The Thomas Roberts who married Elizabeth Lewis at Abbey Dore in 1752, who are probably the couple in the next 3 entries, is also probably too young to have been christened in 1737 so is probably another of the first three in the christening list.

(C) The Thomas and Hannah at St Weonards in 1758 and later the Thomas Roberts who married Mary Wall at St Weonards in 1766 could have been the same Thomas if his first wife died and he remarried. This person, or one of them if they are two different people, is more likely to be the fourth Thomas christened at St Weonards in the list of christenings above than any of the earlier ones and would probably not be the one christened in 1745 though this is not conclussive. (What if different Thomas?)

(D) The Thomas Roberts who married Elizabeth Harper at Kenderchurch in 1770 is unlikely to have been born as late as 1756 and so is probably the fifth entry christened in 1745. This is probably the Thomas and Elizabeth who later lived at Ewyas Harold.

This leaves our Thomas and Margaret who married in 1777 at Kenderchurch, a Thomas who married Jane Watkins at Llanvihangel Crucorney in 1784 and another the husband of Mary at Cwmyoy in 1808.

(E) The last three christenings in 1764, 1767 and 1771 were too young to be our Thomas married in 1777 so I have ignored them.

(F) The one christened in 1761 could have married in 1777 but would have been only 15

(G) That leaves a Thomas christened at Ewias Harold in 1756, one at Grosmont in 1758/9 and possibly one of the first 3 christenings that isn't accounted for. This last is very unlikely. I need to check if the Grosmont christening is part of the family known to have been there which is unrelated to us. Given the known connection with Ewyas Harold the most likely solution is that our Thomas was the son of John and Jane at Ewyas Harold christened in 1756.

We all know that love is not as logical as this and this possible reconstruction could be spoilt by people moving around, one of the Thomas's having died young or having married twice but the identity of John and Jane as the parents of our Thomas seems most likely (and may be corroborated by the Land Tax returns below).

Probable Roberts Grandparents and further back

So the probable grandparents of John of Tressenny were John and Jane Roberts of Ewias Harold who had the following family based on the Ewias Harold records.

John ROBERTS = Jane

b ~1727/8(MI) } b ~1721/2

d 1787, 23 J..} d 1760, 23 Oct,

Ewias Harold, Age 59} Age 38(MI)

} i Ewias Harold

/---?---?---?---?---------v============'------------v--------------\

| /--====='---------\ | |

John = Ann Thomas ROBERTS⁴ Jane James Sarah

b~1753|b~1768 x 1756,23 Jan⁴ , x 1756,23 Jan⁴ x 1758, 5 Aug x 1760,17 Oct

d 1831|d 1848 Ewyas Harold Ewyas Ewyas Ewyas

Helm-|Holmer m 1777, 12 May, Harold Harold Harold

Bridge| Kenderchurch¹

E.H | |

Farmer| |

|

John of Tressenny

John and Jane are buried in prominent positions near the entrance to Ewyas Harold church. Their gravestone reads -

In memory of John Roberts? of this Parish.

He died ye 23 of J.. 1787 aged 59

In memory of Jane the wife of John Roberts

who departed this life the 23rd day of

October 1760 aged 38 years

So Jane died a week after Sarah was christened - she may have died as a result of Sarah's birth or Sarah's christening may have been done because Jane was ill and not expected to live long.

There is also another gravestone near to John and Jane which may mean they were related which again seems to be confirmed by the Land Tax returns below.

To the memory of Ann relict of John Roberts.

She departed this life 26th of March 1848 in her 80th year.

To the memory of John Roberts of the Helm Bridge

in the Parish. He departed this life 11th of October 1831 in

his 78th year

(Relict = Widow)

This John was born around 1753 but I have not been able to find a christening or marriage for him that might indicate how he was related.

The Ewyas Harold parish registers only go back to 1734 as far as I know but the Bishop's Transcripts of the register go back to the beginning of the 1700's, though a few are missing, and they do not show any Roberts' at Ewias Harrold at these earlier dates.

Land Tax Returns

There seems to be some supporting information about the Roberts families in the Land Tax Returns. The Land Tax seems to have been an occasional tax on land owners or tenants with the same fixed amounts levied for each parcel of land every time. Some entries are for whole farms and others for small pieces of land. The tax returns usually give the owner, tenant and taxable value, sometimes with the name of the farm.

From these returns you can trace the occupancy of pieces of land, see approximately when it was taken on or relinquished and, sometimes, its passing on to other family members.

The first Thomas Roberts appears in the 1789 return, the previous return having been in 1782 or 1783. (Check this) at Ewias Harold. This is around the time that our Thomas and Margaret move to Ewias Harold. They had a son christened at Kenderchurch in 1778 and buried there in 1779. Another son was buried there in 1782. Their first child know to be Christened at Ewias Harold was in 1786 though their son Thomas was supposed to have been born there around 1780 – 1783 (depending on whether you trust his age in census returns or at his burial).

It seems likely that this Thomas in the Land Tax Return was our Thomas moving into the area.

It seemed likely earlier that John and Jane were his parents and their grave gives John's death as 1787. Could it be that Thomas moved back to help with John's farm due to his father's age or ailing health?

There are a number of entries I the returns for the name of John Roberts. The first are for 1777, 1781 and 1782 (there are no returns for 1778 – 80) where the land is initially unnamed and then called Wow or Weare Farm. I think this is the same land each time.

Was there a return in 82 and 89 – could this John have moved to Helm Green or is there a break implying this is our John who died?

From these returns it seems that a John Roberts started renting Helm Green between 1783 and 1789 from a Mr Gwillim; from 1790 Walter Marsh owned the land until 1819 when John Roberts bought the land; he continued as owner until 1832 after which the owner is given as 'The Late John Roberts' and it is farmed by Thomas Roberts. John seems to have bought another piece of land around 1802 which was passed to Ann Roberts from 1833. These entries presumably refer to John Roberts of Helm Bridge above who died in 1831, and Ann, his wife.

The returns also give a John Roberts farming two other pieces of land which he gave up in 1823-1825. If this is the same John he would have been about 70 at this time - a reasonable age to be giving up his tenancies. The more valuable of these pieces of land, which was about twice the value of the land he owned, was called Spur Meadow and was also rented from Walter Marsh, the other piece doesn't have a name.

In the earliest returns there was a John Roberts who rented some unnamed land in 1777 and Wow or Weare Farm in 1781 and 1782. This may be John Roberts Snr, father of the above John and Thomas Roberts and who died in 1787 (before the next Land Tax return in 1789).

There was also a Thomas Roberts farming various pieces of land from 1789 onwards which could be the same Thomas as above and had presumably been taken on since the previous tax return in 1782. This is of much lower value than the Wow Farm/Weare Farm so it is unlikely that this was the son taking on his fathers land. Going back to the christenings at Ewias Harold - our Thomas Roberts, the father of John of Tresseny, seems to have moved into the parish between 1782 and 1786 while the second Thomas had been there in 1777 so the beginning of these entries in the tax returns coincides with our Thomas moving to the parish.

The Land Tax Returns also have a piece of land rented by a sequence of Roberts from a Rev Griffiths and later a Rev. Davies. It is not certain but it seems to be the same piece of land throughout since the value is the same and it keeps the same position in the lists. The entries are as follows -

Owner Tenant Tax

1811-1824 Rev Griffiths Phillip Roberts 6/4

1825-1827 Rev D Griffiths Mrs Roberts 6/4

1828 no entry

1829 Rev Mr Thomas Roberts 6/4

1830-1832 Rev Mr Ann Roberts 6/4

1833-1834 Rev Mr Davies Ann Roberts 6/4

There was a Phillip and Ann parents of Thomas and John, christened at Ewias Harold in 1809 and 1811. These entries may refer to this family - I do not know if they are related to our family.

I have not found the marriage of John and Jane and the Bishop's Transcripts (which are much clearer and tidier than their source, the Parish Registers) do not have any early Roberts entries so John probably didn't come from Ewias Harold originally. There are of course many John Roberts' christened in Herefordshire around 1727, the date that he was born, according to the age on his grave stone. Of these there is one of a John Roberts christened at Kentchurch on the 15th April 1727, son of John and Mary. There are others like one born around 1727 at Abergavenny and one christened at Kentchurch in 1732 so more information would be needed to say that this was definitely the father of John Roberts of Ewias Harrold.

If the one at Kentchurch is the right one (which would definitely need some more investigation to prove) then this would link up with the only John Roberts that is known to have been christened in the area at about the right time which is John son of Phillip and Anne, christened at Kentchurch in 1702. They had 9 children christened there between 1701 and 1714, John being the second.

With these earliest conjectured generations the earliest generations are -

Possible Parents -

Phillip Roberts = Anne

|

The only John |

John known to |

be christened |

in the area |

|

/------------+---------------v---------v---------v--------v------v------v------\

| | | | | | | | |

Thomas John = Mary Elizabeth Eleanor Catherine Anne Phillip Mary Mary

ROBERTS ?

x 1701 x 1702, ? x 1704 x 1707 x 1708 x1711 x1712 x1713 x1714

Kentchurch 3 Aug ? ß-- All christened at Kentchurch --->

Kentchurch$?

?

/------------v--?----------------------v-----------------------------\

? ? ? ?

William Mary John ROBERTS = Jane James

x 1724, x 1725, b ~1727/8(MI) } b ~1721/2 x 1729,

2 Oct 13 Mar Guess ?? x 1727, 15 Apr⁴ } 1 Mar

Kentchurch Kentchurch ??? Kentchurch⁴ } Kentchurch

d 1787, 23 J..} d 1760, 23 Oct,

Ewias Harold Age 59} Age 38(MI)

John and Lucy Roberts of Little Birches

We now move back to the second of the three Johns listed in the introduction, the son of John and Sarah of Tressenny, born 25 Mar 1817 at St Margarets parish in Herefordshire. He would have been 23 when his father died.

In the 1851 Grosmont census John junior was now living with his wife, Lucy, and daughter, Agnes, at The Birches farming 39 acres, and Henry, his brother, who was an agricultural labourer, was living at Grosmont Mill. (The family at the mill is Hodges - I do not know whether they were connected to the family who appear there later in our story). The other children of John and Sarah seem to have left Grosmont though Mary or Christianna could have married and still be there under their married names.

It seems that John married Lucy Davies at Abersychan Chapel (Church of England) just outside Pontypool on 4th December 1848 - this is the only marriage certificate for a John Roberts marrying a Lucy Davies in the area at this time. John is given as a Farmer and Lucy's father, John, as an Inn Keeper. The place of residence of both of them is given as 'Varsy' but I don't know where or what this is; the marriage is after Banns so they must have been there for a few weeks but they may only have been visitors in the area. The witnesses of the marriage (Benjamin Rudge and Daniel Thomas) are not family members as far as I know.

They were back in Grosmont for the christening of their first child Agnes just seven months after the marriage and were living at Little Birches, just over a mile from Tressenny, by the time of the 1851 census so I would guess they moved there soon after their marriage.

All their children were christened at Grosmont and by the next census in 1861 their family was complete -

Name |Relation | Age | Rank, Profession |

|to Head | of | | Where Born

| of Cond-| | | or Occupation |

|Family|ition|Mal|Fem| |

| | | | | |

John Roberts | Head | Mar |44 | | Farmer of 42 acres | Hereford St Margarets

Lucy Do | Wife | Mar | |45 | Farmers Wife | Brecknock Hay

Agnes Do | Dau | Un | |11 | Scholar | Monmouth Grosmont

Elizabeth Do | Dau | Un | | 8 | Scholar | Monmouth Grosmont

John Do | Son | Do | 7 | | Scholar | Monmouth Grosmont

Thomas Do | Son | Do | 5 | | --- | Monmouth Grosmont

Charlotte Do | Dau | Do | | 1 | --- | Monmouth Grosmont

Charlotte Davies | | Un | |47 | House Keeper | Brecknock Hay

Austin Morgan |Servant Un |16 | | General Servant | Monmouth Skenfrith

George Davies | | Un |53 | | Labourer | Hereford Ross

1861 Census - Grosmont, Little Birches

This shows a bit more about the family and the household. Lucy was born at Hay, not Brecon as in the 1851 census, and it looks as if it may be an unmarried sister, Charlotte Davies, who is described as their housekeeper. They have a couple of unmarried workers lodging with them which was normal practice in those days - in fact it is odd that they do not have labourers or servants lodging with them in other census returns.

By the time of the 1871 census there is little change in the Roberts household - everybody is ten years older except Lucy whose age has again gone up by 11 years! Perhaps she did not like it being known that she was older than her husband in 1851 so gave the same age or perhaps John had trouble remembering his wife's age.

Name |RELATION | AGE | Rank, Profession |

|to Head | of | | WHERE BORN

| of COND-| | | or OCCUPATION |

|Family |ITION|Mal|Fem| |

| | | | | |

John Roberts | Head | Mar |54 | | Farmer (of 60 acres) | Herefordsh; St Margarets

Lucy do | Wife | Mar | |56 | | Breconsh; Hay

John do | Son | Unm |17 | | | Monmouthsh; Grosmont

Thomas do | Son | Unm |15 | | Scholar | do; do

Agnes do | Daur | Unm | |21 | | do; do

Elizabeth do | Daur | Unm | |18 | | do; do

Charlotte do | Daur | | |11 | Scholar | do; do

1871 Census – Grosmont, Little Birches

Thomas seems quite old to be a scholar, none of the older children have occupations and there are no lodgers - this may imply that they were doing fairly well, it being a prosperous time for farmers, but this is only a guess.

With the children now growing up it is not surprising that there were many changes in the following decade. I do not know when they left home but by 1881 all the children had gone though they have one grandchild with them at the time of the census.

John Roberts | Head | Mar |64 | | Farmer 78 acres | Hereford St Margarets

Lucy do | Wife | Mar | |66 | do Wife | Brecknock Hay

James Higgs | Serv | Unm |40 | | Farm Labourer | Mon Grosmont

Lucy Sperrin |G.child| | | 3 | | Glam Treherbert

1881 - Grosmont, Little Birches

I presume that John must have retired sometime after 1881 and moved to Llangua, the next parish, because this is where he was living when he died in 1888 aged 71. He was buried at Grosmont on May 4th. Lucy moved to Ross and died there in 1894 - she was also buried at Grosmont, on October 9th - her age is given in the registers as 81 which is again older than she would have been if the ages given in the census' are correct. Their grave is next but one to John's father and says -

In Loving Memory Of

JOHN ROBERTS

of this parish

Who Died April 29th 1888

Aged 71 Years

------

"We loved him, ah no tongue can tell

How much we loved him, or how well

God loved him too, and thought it best

To have him home to be at rest"

------

Also Of LUCY His Wife

Who Died OCT 4 1894

Aged 81 Years

------

"Not lost but gone before"

Either this John Roberts or his father bought land for Grosmont Chapel to use for £7 10s

John Sarah John Elizabeth

Roberts = Davies =

| |

of Tressenny Inn Keeper |

| /---------'--------\

| | |

John Roberts = Lucy Davies Charlotte Davies

|

b 1817 | b~1812/3 b 1812/3

Mar 25 | Hay Hay

St Margaret,| x 1813 Dec 8 x 1813 Jan 24

Herefordshire | Whitney Whitney

m 1848, 4 Dec|Pontypool,Mon

Farmer, Little Birches, Grosmont

|

/-----------v--------------------+----------------v----------\

| | | | |

Agnes Elizabeth John Thomas Charlotte

b 1849 b 1852 b 1853, 15 Oct b 1855 b 1859

Little Birches, Grosmont

x 1849 x 1853 x 1854, 7 May x 1856 x 1859

Jul 14! Jan 1 Grosmont 17 Feb Dec 11

Grosmont Grosmont Monmouthshire Grosmont Grosmont

John and Lucy's Children and their families

I am sure that there are others who can tell much more about John and Lucy's children but I will give what I know for the moment.

Agnes Roberts

Agnes married Robert Sperring in 1875 and their daughter, Lucy, shown in the census above, was 3 in 1881 - she was born at Treherbert which is in the Rhondda. Robert, Agnes, Ada and Lilian were at Lowefield Cottages, Childer Thornton, Cheshire in the 1881 census where Robert was working as a railway porter.

Agnes Betsey Roberts = Robert Sperring

|

m ~Sep 1875

/--------v--------v--------v----'---v--------v--------v--------\

| | | | | | | |

Ernest Gilbert Ada Lucy Lily Minnie Bertha Pearl

= HARRIS

There is a photo of Agnes with her husband and family which looks like three sons and five daughters but one of them that looks like a boy is quite unclear and may be a girl. From the ages of the children and the fashion of the clothes they are wearing it would seem that it was taken at the end of the last century.

They emigrated to America and contact with them was lost - they presumably left sometime after the photo was taken because the background looks like a British house but this could be misleading.

Recently contact was made with a researcher interested in the name Sperring and as a result members of the family have been found in Canada and the USA and contact has been re-established. (I need to add more on what we have found)

Elizabeth Roberts

Elizabeth married George Johns and had 7 children - 5 sons and two daughters. George was a clothier in Ross and they built the house, "Grosmont", in Walford Road, Ross, where Jack and Martha Colman now live. (The builder was Mr Lewis who was father in law of one of their sons). I presume that Elizabeth's mother, Lucy, was living with or near them when she died but I do not know if this was the case.

Elizabeth Roberts = George Johns

|

m 1880 | Kentchurch

|

/--------------v-------------v------------'-------v-------------v-----v-----\

| | | | | | |

Frank Edgar Lucy Jack Harry Tom Agnes

= Elizabeth Sadie Robert Mary Gordon Charles

| "Cissie" = SMITH = GOULDSTONE = LEWIS = HODGES

| DOMAN went to| | | b 1890|

| Canada | | Lived at Died Lived at

| 1912 | | Handsworth 1918 in Penalt

d | Mayor of | | Lodge World to Fawley

1950 Calgary, | | Duxmere, Ross War I Canada |

| Canada | | | |

| /-------+------\ |-----------\ \--v-------v-------\ |

| | | | | | | | | |

Leslie Margaret Doris Mary Elizabeth Christopher Barbara Dennis Peter Jean

= Louise = = /Denys = HODGES

Patience "Mary Lou" Peter F Sheila

WATTS TANNER ACRES

| | d 1940 |

/---'---\ | |

| | | |

David Caroline Rosemary Timothy

= Geoffrey = Anthea WYATT

STEPHENS |

/-------v---'--v------\

| | | |

Rebecca Joanna Sam Rowena

Leslie Johns farmed at Oakfields (Hoarwithy) which Frank bought from Bert Carter but I think he later joined the air-force. Jean lived at Kings Caple.

Dennis Johns joined the forces before World War II and was accidently shot and killed in the World War II. He was on leave at the time of Mary Keene's wedding at Fawley and this was the last time that he was seen by the family.

John Roberts (III)

In 1881 John and Charlotte were still unmarried and were living at another farm, Little Marlborough, half a mile from Little Birches.

John Roberts | Head | Unm |27 | | Farmer 75 1/2 acres | Mon Grosmont

Charlotte do |sister| do | |21 | Farmers daughter | do do

William Yates | serv | do |24 | | Farm Labourer | do do

James Burford | do | |15 | | do do indoor | do do

1881 Census - Grosmont, Little Marlborough

When John was about twenty one he married Sarah Jane Price who had grown up near the Roberts' in Grosmont. I will cover this John and Sarah later.

Tom Roberts

Thomas married Jessie Owen and they had two daughters Lucy and Etty. They lived at Merthyr Tydfil

Thomas Roberts = Jessie Owen

|

/------------------'-------------\

| |

Lucy = Tom ROWLANDS Etty = Ellis GRIFFITHS

| |

| /--------v--'------\

| | | /--'--\

David Margaret Yvonne Jean Joyce

| = Peter

| JACKSON

/-----'-----\

| |

Jonathan Mark

(Doctor

in London)

Charlotte Roberts

Charlotte married Jack Hodges in 1881 or 1882 and for some time they lived at Grosmont Mill and Skenfrith Mill but later moved to the Newport area.

I presume that Jack was related to the Hodges family mentioned earlier who were at the mill in 1851 though I haven't checked this.

Charlotte Roberts = Jack Hodges

|

/-----------v-------------+---------------v-----------------v------\

| | | | | |

Tom Benjamin Robert Evangeline Lucy Lily John

| Clara = Pullen Charles

| (Emigrated to (Emigrated to |

| Canada) Canada) | d 1883

| /-'-\ /-'-\ |

David Two sons Two sons Edith Kate JOSLYN

| (lives at Fownhope)

Mary Lou

(lives in Ross)

/--'--\

Tom Bridget

One son is buried between the two John Roberts graves in Grosmont churchyard -

In Loving Memory Of

JOHN CHAS

Son of John and Charlotte Hodges

Died in 1885 Aged 2 Years

He Shall Gather The Lambs In His Bosom

There is a Sarah Hodges buried at Barton Hall, Hereford, who was the daughter of William and Elizabeth Hodges of Grosmont and was 21 when she died on the 27th of September 1860. I don't know if these were relations of Charles Hodges but it is possible. Nor do I know if they were members of Barton Hall (some people did travel a long way to non-conformist chapels) or if she was buried there because there wasn't a non-conformist burial ground at Grosmont.

The Hodges that lived a Grosmont Mill were given in the 1851 census as -

Name |Relation | Age | Rank, Profession |

|to Head | of | | Where Born

| of Cond-| | | or Occupation |

|Family|ition|Mal|Fem| |

| | | | | |

William Hodges | Head | |39 | | | Wellington

Elizabeth Hodges | Wife | | |38 | | Lanveynoe

William Hodges | Son | |15 | | | Wellington

Elizabeth Hodges | Dau | | |13 | | Wellington

Sarah Hodges | Dau | | |11 | | Wellington

Ann Hodges | Dau | | | 9 | | Wellington

Sophia Hodges | Dau | | | 6?| | Grosmont

John Hodges | Son | | 8 | | | Kentchurch

Mary Ann Hodges | Dau | | | 4 | | Grosmont

James Hodges | Son | | 1 | | | Grosmont

1851 Census - Grosmont Mill

The Prices

John Roberts married Sarah Jane Price who had grown up at the mill and farm at Hoaldalbert which is one mile east of Little Birches. It seems that her father, Floyd Price, had moved a few times before coming here in about 1862 when Sarah was a baby and John about 10.

Floyd Price's Family

Floyd said he was born at Bryngwyn, Radnorshire, 5 miles north of Hay in about 1825 on his marriage certificate. His father was given as Richard, a labourer and a miller, which may be where Floyd learnt milling. I have looked for his baptism at Bryngwyn but have not found it. There are, however, four entries between 1826 and 1833 for children of a Richard and Martha Price who lived at Rhos-Goch in the parish of Bryngwyn. Richard is given as a labourer and later a miller matching his marriage certificate, and in 1870 a Martha Price died at Hoaldalbert aged 79, presumably Floyd's mother, so it seems to make it likely that these were his parents. Perhaps the family came to live there just after he was born and he assumed that he was born there (or perhaps the curate forget to enter him in the register).

There are some entries in Kilvert's diary referring to Rhos Goch Mill. Francis Kilvert was a curate at Clyro and wrote his diary there in the early 1870s. They refer back to an earlier time than this though there is no reason to think that they refer to our family but the entries are worth including here as they give an impression of life in the area. In March 1870 he writes -

"I decided to explore the lane running parallel with the brook towards Painscastle and discover the old Rhos Goch Mill. There was a good deal of water and suddenly I came upon the mill pond and the picturesque old mill with an overshot wheel. I crossed one of the streams on a larch felled across the water for a bridge and came back round the front of the cosy old picturesque ivy-grown mill house with its tall chimney completely covered with ivy. A handsome young man with a fine open face, fresh complexion and dressed as a miller was having a romp with a little girl before the door. He said his name was Powell, his father was dead and he carried on the business and with the most perfect politeness and well bred courtesy asked me to come in and sit down. So this is the place that I have heard old Hannah Whitney talk of so often, the place where the old miller sleeping in the mill trough used to see the fairies dancing of nights upon the mill flour."

In October 1870 he wrote - "I turned in to old Hannah's and sat with her an hour talking over old times, and listening to her reminiscences and tales of the dear old times, the simple primitive times 'in the Bryngwyn' nearly ninety years ago. She remembers how, when she was a very little girl, she lived with her grandfather and grandmother, old Walter Whitney (who was about ninety) and his wife. In the winter evenings, some of the old neighbours, friends of her grandfather, used to come in for a chat, especially old Prothero, William Price and William Greenway, contemporaries of her grandfather, and all men born about the beginning of the 18th or the end of the 17th century. These old people would sit round the fire talking on the long winter evenings, and Hannah then a child of 8 or 10 would sit on a little stool by her grandfather's chair in the chimney corner listening while they told their old world stories and tales of 'the fairies' in whom they fully believed. There was the 'Wild Duck Pool' above Newbuilding. To this pool the people used to come on Easter morning to see the sun dance and play in the water and the angels who were at the Resurrection playing backwards and forwards before the sun. There was also the 'sheep cot pool' below Wernwg, where Hob with his lantern was to be seen, only Hannah never saw him. But when people were going to market on Thursday mornings they would exhort one another to come back in good time lest they should be led astray by the Goblin Lantern, and the boys would wear their hats the wrong way lest they should be enticed into the fairy rings and made to dance. Then the story of the girl of Llan Pica who was led astray by the fairies and at last killed by them, and the story of the old man who slept in the mill trough as the Rhos Goch Mill and used to hear the fairies come in at night and dance to sweet fiddles on the mill floor. Hannah living in 'the Bryngwyn' wore a tall Welsh hat till she was grown up'.

The next entry is nothing to do with our story but is also worth repeating - "Old James Jones was breaking stones below Pentwyn. He told me how he had once cured his deafness for a time by pouring hot eel oil into his ear, and again by sticking into his ear an 'elldern' (elder) twig, and wearing it there night and day. The effect of the eel oil at first was, he said, to make his head and brains feel full of crawling creatures.'

Kilvert's diaries give an interesting picture of life in this area in the Victorian era.

Floyd married Sarah's mother, Margaret Edwards, at Plough Chapel, Brecon on the 13th September 1858. The marriage certificate gives the following -

| | | | | | Father's

|Age|Condition|Occupation| Residence | Father |Occupation

-----v---------+---+---------+----------+---------------+----------+----------

| Floyd | 31| Widower | Miller & | Llanarth Mill | Richard | Miller

Sept | Price | | | Farmer |Llanvapley, Mon|(deceased)|

13th |---------+---+---------+----------+---------------+----------+----------

1858 | Margaret| 24|Spinster | House | Money Lane | Thomas | Labourer

| Edwards | | | Keeper | Brecon | Edwards |

-----'---------'---'---------'----------'---------------'----------'----------

Floyd and Margaret's Marriage Certificate

Though he married at Brecon he was living at Llanvapley 7 miles south of Grosmont and 4 miles east of Abergavenny.

His condition was given as widower so I searched for his first marriage - having grown up hearing the name Floyd in the family I had not realised how rare it was - there was no other Floyd Price married in England or Wales in the 15 years before 1858; the only possible entry was a Flyde Price in 1849 so I ordered this certificate which gave the following information -

Marriage at Carmel Chapel, Beaufort in the district of Crickhowell

| | | | | | Father's

|Age|Condition|Occupation| Residence | Father |Occupation

-----v----------+---+---------+----------+-------------+----------+----------

| Flyde | 23|Bachelor | Miner | Brynmawr | Richard | Labourer

14th | Price | | | | Llanelly | Price |

Jan |----------+---+---------+----------+-------------+----------+----------

1849 | Susannah | 19|Spinster | | Brynmawr | Rees | Collier

| Davis | | | | Llangattock | Davies |

-----'----------'---'---------'----------'-------------'----------'----------

Floyd's First Marriage Certificate

I presume this is Floyd since the age and fathers' name fit, however, everything else has changed. He was then living at Llanelly, north west of Abergavenny and, since he is a miner he may have worked at the nearby Clydach Iron Mines. Susannah is at Llangattock, three miles away and just across the River Usk from Crickhowell but they married at Beaufort which is five miles to the south west, the other side of Llanelly so this may mean that Beaufort was her home area. At this time Floyd/Flyde could not sign his name though Susannah could, but by his second marriage he could so it is possible that his first wife taught him to write which was a common occurrence then. I have not done any research into Flyde and Susannah so I do not know whether they had any children or when she died.

Floyd's full family details were –

Rees Richard Martha

DAVIES = PRICE =

| | b ~1790/1

Collier | Labourer/| d 1870, 21 Jun

| Miller | Hoald Albert

| /--------------------------+------v------v-------\

| | | | | |

? 1. Susannah = Flyde / Floyd = 2. Margaret Henry David Emma Elizabeth

Davis Price Price | Edwards

b 1829/30 b 1825/6 | b 1832 / 4 x1826 x1827 x1829 x 1833

Bryngwyn, | 13Mar 24Jun 4 Oct 7 Nov

Radnorshire | Lower Chapel, All at Bryngwyn, Radnorshire

m 14 Jan 1849 m 13 Sep 1858|Plough Chapel, d 1830

Carmel Chapel, Brecon 31 Oct

Beaufort, Miner Miller | i Bryngwyn

nr Crickhowell And Farmer|

|

Floyd's family

Since Abergavenny would have been a focal point for the area it is not surprising that by the time of his second marriage he was at Llanarth Mill just the other side of the town.

Margaret Edwards' family (Floyd's Wife)

From what his second wife, Margaret Edwards, said in census returns, she was born in about 1832 - 1834 at Lower Chapel, a small hamlet 5 miles north of Brecon. Again I have searched the parish registers with similar results as Floyd. This time it is more difficult to work out where to look because Lower Chapel is remote and they could have gone to one of a number of parish churches. There isn't an entry for a Margaret Edwards in any of them but there are some entries which could be her family in Llanfihangel Fechan between 1824 and 1837. There were five children of Thomas and Sarah Edwards baptised with a small gap in the years when Margaret would have been born and Margaret's mother has the same name as Floyd's second daughter.

In addition to these children I have been told that there was another brother called Tom.

If this was Margaret's family then her family details were –

Thomas = Sarah ??

EDWARDS |

|

Labourer |

|

/-----v-------v-------+----v---v------v-------\

/-----'-- | | | <--/ | | |?

Floyd 2. Margaret David William Rees Mary Hannah Tom

Price = Edwards

b 1825/6 | b 1832 / 4 x 1824 x 1827 x 1829 x 1834 x1837

Bryngwyn, | 1 Apr 4 Jan 14 Apr 28 Mar 26 Jan

Radnorshire | Lower Chapel, <----- Llanfihangel Fechan, ---------->

m 13 Sep 1858|Plough Chapel, Breconshire

Brecon

Miller |

And Farmer|

|

Floyd, Margaret and their family

Floyd and Margaret lived at Llanvaple for a few years and their first two children, Martha and Sarah, were born there. I looked for them on the 1861 census return which might have shown if Floyd had any children from his first marriage there but I could not find them. Unfortunately during the 1800's people did not think that the old census returns would be of any use and so they were not stored properly and were moved between the store rooms of various government bodies, spending some years in the roof of the House of Commons, and at some point the Llanvaple returns have been damaged, losing the first few pages - I presume the family was on one of those pages.

I have also searched for Sarah's birth certificate or baptism without success - Sarah Price is a very common name and there are a few in the area but none of these seem to fit. We are not allowed to search the original birth certificates and only have the indexes to look at. (A check can be made to see if the certificates have particular details on them and I checked some for the parents names of Floyd and Margaret but they said that none of the certificates had either of these names on them).

According to the next census, 1871, Sarah was born at Llanvaple in 1861/2 and Alice at Grosmont in 1863/4 so they must have moved in 1862 or 1863. I presume they moved straight into the Mill at Hoaldalbert (possibly taking over from a John and Elizabeth Roberts (not relations as far as I know) who were there in 1859).

On the 21st June 1870 a Martha Price died at Hoaldalbert aged 79; this was presumably Floyd's mother and corroborates the entries in the Bryngwyn parish register.

Name |RELATION | AGE | Rank,Profession |

|to Head | of | | WHERE BORN

| of COND-| | | or OCCUPATION |

|Family|ITION|Mal|Fem| |

| | | | | |

Floy Price | Head | Mar |45 | | Farmer and Mill and 73 acres

| | | | | | Bryngwyn Radnorshire

Margret Price | Wife | Mar | |38 | Lowerchapel | Lowerchapel Breconshire

Martha Price | Daur | | |11 | Scholar | Llanvaple Monmouthshire

Sarah Annie Price | Daur | | | 9 | Scholar | Do Do

Alice Price | Daur | | | 7 | Scholar | Grosmont Mon

Margret E Price | Daur | | | 4 | Scholar | Do Do

Mary Matilda Price | Daur | | | 2 | | Do Do

Hanah Thomas | Serv | | |16 | Gen Serv | Brynmawr Breconshire

Janet Whitney | Serv | | |18 | do | Little Dewchurch

| | | | | | Herefordshire

David Tawne? | Serv | |24 | | Farm Serv indoor | Michaelchurch Do

George Harris | Serv | |26 | | do do | Huntington Do

1871 Census – Hoaldalbert

Here Sarah's middle name is given as Annie instead of Jane - without the earlier census or birth entries I cannot tell if this is a one off or if she changed her middle name after this. (This was the period when more people started having middle names and some who were not given them at birth would add one so sometimes middle names did change).

At this time they have five daughters aged 2 to 11 and they had one more 3 years later. Floyd died in 1876, before the next census, and their eldest daughter, Martha, married Charles Hodges who moved into the house which the 1881 census no longer describes as a mill.

Charles Hodges | Head | Mar |22 | | Farmer | Mon St Maughans

Martha Hodges | Wife | Mar | |21 | --- Wife | do Grosmont

Margaret Price M-in-Law|Widow| |47 | | Lower Chapel

Sarah J do | daur | Unm | |19 | | do Grosmont

Elizabeth M do | daur | | |14 | | do do

Tillie Price | do | | |12 | Scholar | do do

Amy do | do | | | 6 | do | do do

Annie Allen |friend| Unm | |23 | | do Manly Ct

Edwin Tanner | serv | do |22 | | Farm Servant Indoor | Hereford Newton

Charles Morgan | do | do |60 | | do | Mon Llan?urren?

1881 Census - Grosmont, Hoald Albert Farm

The third daughter, Alice, is not there - when someone is missing it is impossible to say whether they were just away for that night or have moved out permanently.

(The entry was completed incorrectly because relationships were supposed to be to the head of the household which is given as Charles so all the 'daur's should be given as sister-in-law - I'm sure the enumerator didn't think that he looked old enough to have a 19 year old daughter).

Floyd died in 1876 and Margaret in 1890.

1. Susannah = Flyde / Floyd 2. Margaret

Davis Price Price = Edwards

b 1829/30 b 1825/6 | b 1832 / 4

Bryngwyn, |

Radnorshire | Lower Chapel,Breconshire

m 14 Jan 1849 m 13 Sep 1858 | Plough Chapel,

Carmel Chapel, Brecon

Beaufort, Miner Miller |

nr Crickhowell And Farmer |

|

d 1876 | d 1890

|

/----------------v-------------v-------'------v----------------v-----------\

| | | | | |

| | | | | |

Martha Price Sarah Jane PRICE Alice Margret Elizabeth Mary Matilda Amy

Sarah Annie PRICE PRICE or Elizabeth Margret (Tillie) Harriet

b. 1859/60 b. 1861 / 2 b 1863/4 b 1866/7 b 1868/9 b 1874/5

Llanvaple Llanvaple Grosmont Grosmont Grosmont

Monmouthshire Monmouthshire

Summary of Floyd and Margaret's Family

Floyd and Margaret's Children and their families

Again there are others who could fill in more on the children of Floyd and Margaret and I would be pleased if more could be added to the outline I have here.

Martha Price

Martha had married Charles Hodges by 1881 and they were living at Hoald Albert Farm. They had five sons and their family, as far as I know it, is as follows -

Charles HODGES = Martha Price

|

b 1859/60 | b. 1859/60

St Maughans | Llanvaple

Monmouthshire| Monmouthshire

|

/---------------------------v-------------+---------------v---------\

| | | | |

Charles = Agnes JOHNS Floyd Manley Jack Alfred

| | |

| /--------+--------\ /----'----\

| | | | | |

Jean William Phyllis Valerie Rosemary Dianna

HODGES

Here we come across the first of the complications in the family tree because Charles Hodges junior married his cousin Agnes Johns, daughter of George and Elizabeth Johns (nee Roberts) whose tree was shown earlier in the section on the Roberts family.

Sarah Jane Price

Sarah married John Roberts who has already been covered and I will give more on them below.

Alice Price and Elizabeth Margaret Price

All I know of Alice at the moment is that she married a Sydney Francis Farr and she died 1920.

I am not sure if the next daughter should be Elizabeth Margaret or Margaret Elizabeth as the 1871 and 1881 census returns give different orders. Again my only information on her is the name of her husband Albert Bevan.

Mary Matilda Price and the Coles

Mary Matilda married Alfred George Cole of Grosmont. His parents, Joseph James and Mary Ann Cole were both born in Hereford but all their children were born at Grosmont between 1860 and 1874. They had a shop in Grosmont where Joseph was a Grocer, Draper and, later, Postmaster.

Name |Relation | Age | Rank, Profession |

|to Head | of | | Place of Birth

| of COND-| | | or OCCUPATION |

|Family|ITION|Mal|Fem| |

| | | | | |

J J Cole | H | Mar |23 | | Grocer & Draper | Herefordshire Hereford

Mary Ann Cole | Wife | Do | |27 | ------- Wife | Do Do

Ann Edmonds Mother-in-Law W | |53 | | Do Do

Elizabeth Edmonds |Sister| un | |14 | Sister | Herefordshire Hereford

?Renn?h Bevan | Serv | un |16 | | Apprentice | Monmouthshire Grosmont

Mary Ann Cole | Daur | | | 1 | | Do Do

Mary Ann Hunner? | Serv | un | |15 | Serv | Hereford

Winer? | | | | | |

1861 Census - Shop, Grosmont

J J Cole | Head | Mar |33 | | Grocer, Draper & Subpostmaster

| | | | | | Hereford

Mary Ann Cole | Wife | Mar | |38 | Grocers | Hereford

Mary Ann Cole | daur | X | |11 | | Grosmont Mon

Joseph A Cole | Son | X | 9 | | | do do

John E Cole | Son | X | 7 | | | do do

Edwin W Cole | Son | X | 2 | | | do do

Ann Edmunds Mother-in-Law W | |63 | | do do

Ann Whitney | Serv | X | |15 | Gen Servant | -- --

Sarah Martha Moffat|Teacher to | |27 | Governess | Hull Yorkshire

|Children | | | |

John Ford |Visitor Mar |41 | | | Fownhope Herefordshire

1871 Census - Grosmont Village

Joseph J Cole | Head | Mar |43 | | Grocer, Draper,Postmaster Hereford

Mary Ann do | do | Mar | |47 | Wife of above | do

Mary Annie do | daur | Unm | |21 | Assistant in shop | Mon Grosmont

Emma Cole | do | | |15 | draper do do | do do

Edwin N Cole | Son | |12 | | Scholar | do do

Alfred G do | son | | 9 | | do | do do

James Cole | son | | 7 | | do | do do

Annie Edmunds M in Law|Widow| |73 | | Herefordshire

Mary Powell | aunt | Unm | |64 | Housekeeper | do

Henry N Gualker? assistant do |18 | | Assistant in shop | Mon Grosmont

grocer

1881 Census - Grosmont Village

= POWELL = Annie EDMUNDS

| | b ~1807/8

| | Herefordshire

| /----------'---------\

| | |

Joseph James COLE = Mary Ann EDMUNDS Elizabeth EDMONDS

b 1837 / 8 | b 1833/4 b ~1846/7

Hereford | Hereford

Grocer / Linen Draper and Post Office |

d 1904, 16 Aug, i Grosmont | d 1915, 30 Sep, i Grosmont

/--------v----------------v-------v-------+---------v----------------------------\

| | | | | | |

Mary Joseph Lettie John Emma Edwin Alfred Mary Matilda James

Ann Andrew = Marian E W/N George COLE = (Tillie) PRICE COLE

1859/60 1861 1863/4 1865/6 1868/9 b 1871/2 | b 1868/9 b 1873/4

<------------- All Born At Grosmont -----------> Grosmont | Grosmont

d 1937 b~1865/6 |

21 Jun d 1938 Farmer at |

Southampton 29 Dec Grosmont 1895|

|

/----------------v-----------v--------------------------'---------\

| | | /----------------------- | -------\

Daisy Charles Joe Agnes Martha = Dennis Mary Anne = Reginald

= HONEY = (Pattie) | MICHAEL (Minnie) | MICHAEL

| | |

/-----+-----\ /--------v--------+--------v--------\ /----v--'--v-----\

| | | | | | | | | | | |

Margaret Douglas Patricia Marion Margaret Gillian Philip John Graham Pat Robin

Francis Anne Louise Elizabeth George Alfred

The Coles

Joseph's mother in law is Annie Edmunds and a family of Edmunds had a grocer's shop in Grosmont in the 1851 census. There isn't an Annie or Mary in that family so it isn't clear whether that was a related family or not.

In 1895 Alfred Cole is listed as a farmer in Grosmont. They had four children - The first daughter, Daisy, married Charles Honey whose family were builders in Hereford. Their son, Joe, married late but I do not have any other information on him. The last two daughters , known as Pattie and Minnie, married two brothers, Dennis and Reginald Michael.

Joseph Cole died on the 16th August 1904 and Mary on the 30th September 1915 - both are buried at Grosmont. Their gravestone also includes details of the death of their son Joseph and his wife Lettie who died at Southampton.

Amy Harriet Price

I do not know anything about Floyd and Margaret's fifth daughter.

The Story so Far

This tree summarises the families that have been covered by showing all the direct ancestors of John and Sarah Jane.

John Jane John Elizabeth

ROBERTS = CRUMP = DWYER

| |

b~1727/8|b~1721/2 b~1715/16 | b~1709/10 b = born

d 1787 |d 1760, m 1749, 1 Mar x = christened

23 J | 23 Oct All Saints, Hereford m = married

i Ewyas |i Ewyas d 1788,13 Feb| d = died

Harold | Harold i Kenderchurch| i = interred

| /---/

| |

| |

Thomas Margaret John Mary

ROBERTS = CRUMP PROSSER=

| ?? |

x 1756 | x 1755 |??

23 Jan | 27 Apr |

Ewyas | Kenderchurch |

Harold | |

m 1777, 12 May |

Kenderchurch |

| |

| |

| Margaret

John /Sarah?? John Elizabeth Richard Martha Thomas Sarah?

ROBERTS = PROSSER?? DAVIES= PRICE = EDWARDS=

| | | |

x 1786, 8 Oct |x1790,1 Jan?? | |b~1790/1 |

Ewyas Harold | Kentchurch?? | | |

m 1810, 11 Jul, Kentchurch | | |

d 1840, 31 Dec, | | | |

Age 54 | | | d 1870, |

i 1841, 3 Jan | | | 21 Jun |

Grosmont | | |Hoaldalbert |

Farmer at | Inn | Labourer/| Labourer|

Tressenny | Keeper | Miller | |

| | | |

| | | |

John ROBERTS = Lucy DAVIES Floyd PRICE = 2. Margaret

| | EDWARDS

| |

b 1817, Mar 25 | b~1812/3,Hay b 1829/30 | b 1825/6

St Margaret, | x 1813 Dec 8 Bryngwyn, | Lower Chapel,

Herefordshire | Whitney Radnorshire | Breconshire

m 1848, 4 Dec|Pontypool,Mon m 13 Sep 1858,Plough Chapel,

Farmer, Little Birches, Grosmont Miner Miller | Brecon

d Llangua, Hfds | d Ross-On-Wye,Hfds And Farmer |

i 1888, May 4 | i 1894, Oct 9 d 1876 | d 1890

Grosmont. Age 71 | Grosmont, Age 81 |

| |

| |

John ROBERTS = Sarah Jane PRICE

|

|

b 1853, 15 Oct | b 1861 / 2

Little Birches, Grosmont | Llanvapley

x 1854, 7 May | Monmouthshire

Grosmont, Monmouthshire |

d 1945 | d 1940

Tidenham, Glos | Tidenham, Glos

Roberts / Price

John and Sarah Jane Roberts (nee Price)

John Roberts married Sarah Jane Price at Grosmont on the 31st of January 1883. The standard statement on the marriage certificate is filled in to read 'Married in the Room according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Brethren by Certificate by me, William Seward, ....ister, Thomas Lewis, Registrar'. (Part is rubbed or damaged - does it say minister?)

| | | | | Father's

|Age|Condition| Residence | Father |Occupation

-----v----------+---+---------+------------------+--------------+----------

Thirty| John | 29|Bachelor | Birches,Grosmont | John Roberts | Farmer

First| Roberts | | | | |

January|----------+---+---------+------------------+--------------+----------

1883 |Sarah Jane| 21|Spinster | Hoaldalbert | Floyd Price | Farmer &

| Price | | | Grosmont | | Miller

-----'----------'---'---------'------------------'--------------'----------

Witnesses - Thomas Roberts and Alice Price

John and Sarah's Marriage Certificate

Having started at Grosmont John and Sarah farmed at a number of different places. Their first move, before their first child was born in 1885, was to Trewen near Whitchurch just off the Ross to Monmouth road where they were for the 1891 census. John's nephew Frank Johns was with them for the night of the census; we have no way of knowing if he was just visiting or if he stayed for a longer period.

John Roberts | Head | M |37 | | Farmer | Monmouth Grosmont

Sarah J Roberts | Wife | M | |29 | | Monmouth Llanarth

Floyd A Roberts | Son | | 5 | | | Herefordshire Llangarren

Amy E Roberts | Daur | | | 2 | | Herefordshire Llangarren

Margaret Roberts | Daur | | |9mo| | Herefordshire Llangarren

Henry Morsom? Servant|Sin|22 | | Waggoner | Herefordshire Welsh Newton

Flora Watkins Servant|Sin| |16 | Domestic Servant | Herefordshire Llangarren

Frank Johns |Nephew| | 7 | | | Monmouth Abergavenny

Next entry - Ruxton Court - Scudamore

1891 Census - Trewen, Llangarren

After that they moved a short distance to Trebandy House. One source tells me that they were there until 2nd February 1907 but the diary entry below implies that they had moved to Much Fawley by 1905. It seems that they were farming both farms for a while.

When they moved to Much Fawley the Bellamy's moved from there to Fawley Court. (Timothy Powell, whose daughter, Rose, was to marry Floyd Aubrey, had farmed Fawley Court until 29th September 1900 but had taken on Ballingham Court from the 2nd February 1900).

The full family of John and Sarah was -

John Roberts = Sarah Jane PRICE

|

b. 1853, Grosmont | b. 1861 / 2

Monmouthshire | Llanvaple

m 1883, 31 Jan, Grosmont Brethren

|

/--------v--------v--------v--------+--------v--------v--------v--------\

| | | | | | | | |

Floyd Amy Margaret Agnes John Charlotte Tom Jessie Joseph

Aubrey Elizabeth Lucy Martha Hedley Dorothy Sydney Alice James

b 1885 (Tiny) (Pattie) (Jack) Price Matilda (Joe)

= = = = (Topsy) =

Rose Edith Stanley Mary = Georgina

Powell DAVIS ADAMS JONES James (Gean)

WILLIAMS INCOL

The Family of John and Sarah Jane Roberts

The following is part of a diary entry of a visitor to Much Fawley, printed in a local paper - "The writer Effie Allen (nee Connigrove) born 1870, was on her first trip from South Australia to the United Kingdom in 1905 and was making a special trip to Much Fawley. She made a day trip from London taking the train to Ross and hiring a carriage to drive her to Much Fawley. The whole trip taking thirteen hours -

'I alighted {from the hired Landau} amongst a number of large stables and out-buildings and enquired from a nice little girl who lived at Much Fawley, she told me the Bellamy's had moved to Fawley Court and a Mrs Roberts lived there, so I asked her to take me to her. We went round an old little church down a few steps and then she opened an old gate and there I was standing at the door of my mother's birthplace. Over the front door was a rustic trellis and at the other end the little glass house that I had heard her speak of.

'The house is an old-fashioned looking two-storey one built on a hill and as you stand at the front door you look right down the Wye which flows just at the foot, away as far as the eyes can see are fields with hedges and hill and vale country.

'Mrs Roberts, a rather pleasant looking woman appeared and I explained I was a stranger ... and as it was my mother's birthplace I wanted to ask if I might look around it.

'She asked me inside into the sitting room a nice large altho rather low room with large beams across it. There was a casement window or sort of bay window looking out in the garden towards the Wye.

'In the wall near the window were two small doors evidently an old fashioned cupboard and also a door near out of which I could see an archway and old fashioned staircase. There was also a piece taken out of the room and a door to it, a fireplace and two other doors and the one side of the room was wainscoted with wood. ...

'She said the Bellamy's had lived there 50 years, she and her husband had only been there four times she did not seem to like it much and told me she had nine children and there was not much in it but hard work.

'She very kindly sent for the key to the church as she thought I would like to see inside, she said they did not go they were dissenters. Her son a rather nice looking young fellow of 20 turned the key and left me in that little old quaint place alone. ...

'When I returned to the house Mrs Roberts had kindly got me a nice little tea, lovely bread, cake tea and cream which I did enjoy. ...'

'I returned to the carriage and we returned a different way...'

The 'four times' could mean that they still lived at Trebandy at that time. The son mentioned would have been her eldest, Aubrey.

Land owners could give a years notice to tenants and this is what their landlord did because of their strong pro-Liberal views so they left Much Fawley and John bought Upton Court at Tysoe in Warwickshire. While there his eldest son, Aubrey, started renting a neighbouring farm at the bottom of the hill that Upton Court was on. John sold that farm and bought Day House at Tidenham near Chepstow but Aubrey continued on his farm as Tysoe with one of his sisters as housekeeper. Aubrey then bought and moved to Bromley in 1912.

I will finish the main part of the family history there as I probably know less than most on their family. The following are brief notes about John and Sarah's children and their families - some of them could do with a few more details, if anyone can provide me with information then I will add it.

Further notes

Floyd Aubrey

Floyd Aubrey was born in 1885 and baptised as an adult in a brook at Trewen.

He married Rose Powell, daughter of Timothy Powell, at Henry Street Chapel in Ross on the 4th of June 1912. Rose had lived as Fawley Court but her family moved to Ballingham Court at the same time as the Roberts family took Much Fawley. I'm told that Aubrey would cycle from Tysoe to Ballingham when he was courting Rose. They lived at Bromley Court and their family was born there.

Floyd Aubrey Roberts = Rose Powell

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Frank Mary Floyd Tom Gordon Douglas

?b 1918? b 1922

21 Feb

Floyd died young (when he was about 5 ?).

They bought The Elms at Tibberton in 1936, originally with the intention that Leslie Johns would farm there but Aubrey, Rose, Tom, Gordon and Douglas moved there though they continued to return to Hoarwithy often and attended the chapel there. Frank stayed at Bromley with Mary and then married Mary Ware on 21 May 1937. Tom took Crooks Farm near Newent in 1938. The family moved to Fawley Court in 1939 and Mary married Wilfred Keene from there on the 4th January 1940. They kept the Elms on for 8 years and Tom drove to Crooks each day with Douglas who cycled on to Tibberton. Tom married Ivy on the 29th March 1947.

(All possible land was supposed to be ploughed for crops during the war however several ploughing orders had to be cancelled due to seed failures including 16 acres at Fawley Court (probably in 1944) (From Landscape Origins of the Wye Valley ed. Heather Hurley).

Floyd Hodges had moved to farm Staly House at Stalybridge near Manchester but in the 1930's Aubrey took over this, with someone else having the farm's milk round. They used to transfer cattle between there and Fawley by train initially but, after an incident where railway personnel decided to put down an animal that was lame with no compensation being paid, they bought a lorry to do the transporting themselves. It was possible to do a round trip in a day taking about six hours each way.

Guys Hospital bought Tresseck Farm from the Austens (because they wanted to get money out of London in anticipation of damage that might be done during the war) – this may have been late in 1939 (according to family) or they may have tried to sell it in 1939 but the sale to Guys actually happened 2-3 years later (according to book on Tresseck). Aubrey wanted land away from Fawley because he had too many cows testing positive for TB and wanted somewhere separate to keep them where the calves could be born and then taken back to Fawley at a young age, free of TB. He took on Tresseck for this and Gordon farmed it during the war. When Frank moved to Shobdon, Gordon moved into Bromley and Douglas took over Tresseck. When Guys decided to rationalize their holding they decided to sell Tresseck because it was separate to their other land and the family bought it. (I do not know which year they bought it). Aubrey and Rose left Fawley at Easter 1957(?) and moved to Hill Crest, the house they had built at Hoarwithy.

Frank Johns had bought Oakfields, next to Bromley, from Bert Powell (do I mean Carter?) for his son, Leslie, to farm but later Gordon bought Oakfields from the Johns and Leslie joined the airforce.

Timothy Powell had bought Hollington Farm from the Holme Lacy Park Estate and Stephen Powell farmed there with, perhaps, Bert and Lily, Stephen's sister, having the river meadows along with Ballingham Court. Initially Wilfred and Mary Keene farmed at Wantage but his father bought Hollington and they moved there.

Farm Histories

I haven't yet got the full details of who farmed what and when but the following is a list of entries from various directories. The information may, of course, be out of date by the time that the directory is published.

1870 Tresseck Thomas Smyth

Bromley Henry Lickford

1891 The Tump, Fownhope Fras Timothy Powell

Tresech Thomas Smyth

1895 Treyseck Thomas Smyth

1900 Treyseck Thomas Smyth

Fawley Court Timothy Powell

1909 Lower Ballingham Timothy F Powell

Fawley Court Edmund Bellamy

Tresseck Thomas Smyth

1929 Bromley Court Floyd Aubrey Roberts

Tresseck Geo Llewellyn Baker

Oakfields Stephen Powell

Fawley Ct (>150 acres) E J Bellamy and Son

1937 Bromley Court Floyd Aubrey Roberts

Tresseck (<150 acres) Geo Llewellyn Baker

Hollington Farm (<150a) Stephen Powell

1941 Fawley Ct (>150 acres) F A Roberts

Bromley Ct (>150 acres) Frank Jn Price Roberts

Hollington (>150 acres) Stephen Powell

Tresseck Austin Baker

Tresseck Census returns

1841 Township of Tresseck

William Dobson 45 Farmer

Ann Knill 20 Independent. Housekeeper

Susannah Rainbow? 20 Female Servant

James Porter 25 Male Servant

Thomas Cooke 25 Male Servant

George Carter 15 Male Servant

William Williams 15 Male Servant

(Ages rounded down to multiple of 5 years)

Followed by entries for Tresseck Drapers Mill, Lawn Cottage, Lower Cottage, Cheeses Barn. There are also households at Red Rail and a lot at Wye Hill as well as Hoarwithy.

1881 Tresseck Farm

Place of Birth

Thomas Smythe 33 Farmer of 196 acres Ballingham

employing 5 men and 2 boys

Elizabeth " Wife 34

Nora E Daur 3

John L Son 1

Florence A Daur 5 months

Mary James Servant 18 General Servant Pontrilas

Mary A Price? Servant 14 Hentland

This is followed by entries for a Pritchards family at the Little Bone Mill and the Fids or Tids at the Bone Mill before entries for Hoarwithy start.

Amy, Margaret and Agnes

The first three daughters, Amy, Tiny and Pattie, as they were known, didn't marry.

Amy went to India with Lady Minto and others as a government nurse. After returning to England she could not settle and left for Tinsin, China.

John Hedley

John, the fourth John, known as Jack, was born in 1895 and married Edith Davis of Tuts Hill(?). She died fairly young. Their son John Roberts of Wyesham and grandson John Richard are the fifth and sixth John Roberts'. Their other son James (of Old Hall / Sandyway ??) and grand-daughter Eunice Carter both married descendants of Rose Powell's brother, Stephen, making the complete family tree very difficult to draw (though I'm sure that's not why they did it). John later married his sister-in-law Mary Jones.

John Hedley Roberts = 1. Edith Davis

| 2. Mary Roberts nee Jones

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John = Mary Friend Ruth = Stanley Carter James = Rhoda Powell

Charlotte

Charlotte married Stanley Adams and had two children, Robert and Jane.

Charlotte Roberts = Stanley Adams

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Robert Jane

Tom Sydney

Tom married Mary Jones. He was killed in an accident in the autumn of 1937. His wife later married Jack Roberts her brother in law.

1. Tom Sydney Roberts = Mary Jones

2. John Hedley Roberts |

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Jack = Jean Peter Martha = 1. Peter Jackson

2. Jack Colman

(From Martha: My father Tom Roberts died following a farming accident at Hewelsfield Court, St Briavels. I was about 12 months old at the time.

My two brothers John and Peter remember him though. Peter now lives on the Isle of Lewis, Western Isles, Scotland and John our older brother lives in Kenilworth.

Aunty Rose and Uncle Aubrey were very kind to me when I was young. I used to go to stay with them at Fawley Court in the School holidays. On one occasion Aubrey from Ledicot was staying there at the same time.

I did spend some time going to school from St. Briavels where I lived for a while with Aunty Charlotte and Uncle Stanley and also I lived with the Aunties at Day House, Tidenham and went to school from there, until my mum was able to have me back, when she went to house keep for a retired farmer at Much Birch., a Harry Manning and I am still in touch with the Manning family.

I went to Much Birch School before passing to go to Ross Grammar School. We moved to live at Ingestone, Foy when my Mum married Jack Roberts. (Father of James, John and Ruth Roberts, my first cousins. Ruth was just about to marry Stanley Carter and move to live at Ballingham Court. John, her brother, was still living at home and I was bridesmaid when he married Mary Friend, from Aylestone Hill, Hereford.

I was about 12 at the time we went to live at Ingestone and the Festival of Britain was in full swing. I can remember going to it with a group of children from the Grammar School.)

Jessie

Jessie, known as Topsy, stayed at Tidenham and married James Williams who took on Day House at Tidenham.

Jessie = James Williams

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Sarah "Sally" (adopted)

Joseph

Joe married Gean Incol and they lived in Canada and later in Scotland (Edinburgh?). Their children live in Canada.

Joe = Gean Incol

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June = Craig Sharp Margaret = Andy Sally = Bob Miller

One of the problems of investigating the family history is the number of Roberts' that there are in documents though there are not as many as Powell or Price in south west Herefordshire. As a final note the following list which shows the frequency of different surnames in English and Welsh Birth, Marriage and Death certificates from 30-Jun-1837 to 1-Jul-1838 may be of interest to some.

13429 Jones 4199 Roberts 3148 Walker 2874 Thompson

12637 Smith 3745 Johnson 3134 Lewis 2836 Hill

8743 Williams 3555 Robinson 3112 Green 2771 Harris

6440 Taylor 3399 Wilson 3097 Edwards 2693 Cooper

5589 Davies 3299 Wright 3087 White 2683 Clark

5585 Brown 3227 Hall 3040 Jackson 2661 Davis

5278 Thomas 3180 Hughes 2908 Turner 2502 Harrison

4930 Evans 3177 Wood

I am hoping to add to this history so if you can send me corrections to what I have written or more information, either small items to add to what's here or longer pieces to cover branches that I have only been able to cover briefly, then please let me know and I will add it in.

Andy Roberts c/o or via the Brown

family at

Tresseck Barn, Pamington Farm,

Hoarwithy, Tewkesbury,

Herefordshire Gloucestershire

HR2 6QJ

Version 5 June 2006 – Reviewed format and content – tidied up for family gathering

Corrections / Questions etc

Leslie Johns did not farm at Penalt (Kings Caple) ? (Aunty Mary)

Where did I get this from ?

I had Floyd and Rose's marriage as 2nd of June 1912 - Where did that come from correct other places where 2nd June is written.

Alice died 1920 - is that correct - I wasn't sure who this comment referred to.

Where was Aunty Mary when family moved to Tibberton

Other corrections to note, transfer to other documents, pass on to Martha

Valerie dau of Floyd Hodges not Jack

order of Alf Cole's children

Tom went to the school at Exeter first. Later Gordon at the same time as Wilfred Keene went (which is how he met Mary). Later Douglas went down about 1930/2. (If the school was Mount Radford then Tommy Cooper may have been there at a similar time - he was born between Gordon and Douglas, I think).

Mary and Ruth Carter nee Roberts went to Ross Grammar.Gordon Roberts d 2 Jun 1997

Wilfred Keene d 3-jun-2002 Worcester Hospital, i 7-jun-2002 Dulas

memorial service Barton Hall Hereford 7-Jun-2002

Mary Keene d Aug-2002, i Dulas, memorial service afterwards at Barton Hall Hereford

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http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/Dissent2.html

Grosmont

Non-conformist Churches / Chapels / Meeting Rooms registered in Grosmont. These could be for the Brethren church that the Roberts' joined at Grosmont - the Hereford Brethren church was initially based in Bridge Street and the group would typically refer to themselves as Christians rather than a denominational name as is done in the second entry in the place where denomination is usually listed.

1840, April 1: Protestant; the Town Hall; William HUMFREYS, Bridge street, Hereford; No 231. (Endorsed: Certificate dated 1840, August 13)

1846, September 7; Protestant (endorsed; Christians); a room in the house occupied by Richard FARRE; William YAPP of Bridge street Hereford; No 232. (Endorsed: Certificate dated 1846, September 19.)

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