The Roberts Family

Titles aren't being included in the contents list and I don't know how the entries that are being loaded are included as they aren't marked as header types - May need to change the Titles to Header 1 in source document

Introduction

It might be thought that the obvious place to start a story is at the beginning but in history the earliest facts are usually vague and surrounded by questions so I have chosen to start in the middle with some members of our family that are fairly well documented. For our Roberts family the earliest clear facts are that the family was at Grosmont, in north Monmouthshire, next to the Herefordshire border, in the 1800's and this seems a good place to start.

There was a Roberts family in Grosmont in the 1700's and another in the early 1800's but I do not know of a link with either of them. The first of these families has a number of stone tablets in the church where they are described as gentry and a copy of the Grosmont parish records that was published in the early 1900's confirms this, giving brief notes of this family. It would be nice to think that our family had connections with this family but I think it is unlikely since the book doesn't mention a connection even though our ancestors are listed in it, and it gives the impression that the last member of that family died around 1800.

The first three generations of our family that lived at Grosmont were all called John - first John and Sarah of Tressenny Farm, second John and Lucy of Little Birches Farm and then John and Sarah Jane who started in Grosmont but moved a number of times, including Much Fawley, and ended at Day House, Tidenham near Chepstow. This history starts with the first of these John's, then looks at the possible earlier ancestors before moving on to the second John and his descendants. It then covers Sarah Jane's family, The Prices, before finishing with John and Sarah Jane's family.

In the story I have used the spellings as I have found them in documents so names like Tressenny often have different spellings. As research has continued I have sometimes found that earlier deductions were wrong. Sometimes I have left my original deductions in the text and added to them my newer conclusions - This will act as a reminder that some of the deductions may still be wrong.

Copies of this document and Adding to it

This document can be downloaded from http://public.box.net/robertxuk00066

I'd be pleased if you were able to add to, correct or improve this. You can either send updates to me or update the document and send it to my email which is andy_p_roberts$yahoo.co.uk (but you'll have to change the $ to an @ to make this work – typed it this way to prevent programs trawling the internet from automatically finding my email address and getting lots of junk as a result)

Andy Roberts

C/o Tresseck Farm,

Hoarwithy,

Herefordshire

HR2 6QJ

John and Sarah Roberts of Tressenny

At Tressenny - "A Dreadful Accident!"

The earliest known connection of our family with Grosmont was John and Sarah Roberts who farmed at Tressenny just outside the 'town' (as it was described then). The first reference to them is in the parish registers which show five of their children were christened there between 1825 and 1833 and confirms that they were at Tressenny at that time. The registers also record the death of one of those children, Sarah, who died aged 6 in 1835 and then of John aged 54, who was buried on the 3rd of January 1841.

There is a gravestone at Grosmont for a John Roberts who seems to have died in 1810 and for the Sarah who died aged 6. The stone seemed to read -

To the Memory of JOHN ROBERTS

who died Dec 31 1810 Aged 51 (or 54)

Also of Sarah Dau of Jno & Sarah Roberts

who died April 23rd 1835 Aged 6 Years

(with a verse I could only partly read).

It had been assumed that this John was the father of John of Tressenny but there is no record in the registers of a John Roberts buried at Grosmont in 1810 - It is possible that the vicar forgot to write the entry into the registers but the stone only says 'In Memory of' so it was possible that this John was buried elsewhere and remembered on this stone. Another possibility is that he could have been another close relation since there is no relationship mentioned, it is not proved that this John was the father of John of Tressenny.

However, as I was writing this and looking at the copy I made of the stone a doubt began to rise. I originally read the age as 51 but thought there seemed to be a faint cross line cut making it a 54 - I couldn't be certain. I now realise that if I had also misread the 1810 it could be 1840 making this the stone for John of Tressenny not his 'father'.

On going back and looking at the gravestone again it is not possible to tell for certain what the stone says. Only the down cut remains but there is some shading on the stone in the shape of a 4 and the spacing between the numbers looks too large for it to just be a 1.

I looked at the local papers to see if they contained an obituary that shed light on this. It seems that the papers didn't publish deaths then but they did contain the following articles.

The Hereford Times on Saturday the 2nd of January 1841 -

The Grosmont burial register shows that by the time this report was published John had already died.

Two weeks later the Hereford Times reported the accident again with slightly different details without seeming to realise that it had already reported it. -

This version seems to have been copied from the report in the longer standing and I suspect more 'up market' Hereford Journal which had reported the incident on the 13th of January -

On Friday, at Tressenny, near Grosmont, Mr Roberts,

a highly-respectable farmer, died from a fractured skull,

owing to a fall from his horse on his return from Abergavenny

market on Tuesday night, leaving a widow and ten children. The

unfortunate deceased was a particularly sober and abstemious man.

This less sensational report seems to give all the details of John's death and I suspect is the more accurate description of events though the other versions add some more information. I wonder if the last comment was intended to indicate that the fall was not due to him drinking at market.

The winter seems to have been a harsh one. The weather report in the paper that originally reported the accident said -

In passing it might be of interest to include parts of a few other reports from the papers of that time.

The Hereford Times, Saturday, January 9 1841

THE WEATHER.- frost has again set in with increased severity. The ground is covered with snow and travel quite dangerous. Complaints of boys making slides on footpaths. Thursday night coldest night for many years and Friday morning the Thermometer stood at 27 degrees below freezing point.

Another article mentions that the River was frozen.

CAUTION TO FARM SERVANTS.- A farm servant was committed to one month in the county gaol and hard labour for having disobeyed his master's orders and other misconduct

The Hereford Journal, Wednesday, January 13 1810

Two canal-heavers agreed to exchange wives and went to Smithfield market to perform the contract in open market. The 2 women had halters round their necks and one was accompanied by 4 children 2 of whom the buyer agreed to take. A City Marshalman interrupted the disgraceful scene; the men being unwilling to depart one of them was taken into custody for having assembled a mob and interrupted the markets business.

(This is not necessarily a local story - Local papers would copy stories from other newspapers especially London papers).

Not all the articles would seem this strange to us - there were also articles about county boundary changes, the lottery and break-ins at Buckingham Palace, all recently in current news.

The longer established Hereford Journal later went out of business presumably due to competition from its newer more down-market competitor which claimed to have the largest paper distribution in the world.

(All these papers are available for reading at Hereford Library though some are only available on microfilm).

John's Family and Farm when he died

I have a map which shows the fields that John farmed in 1839, a year before he died; he rented 50 fields totalling 240 acres which I think was one of the largest rented farms in the parish. Half the fields are described as pasture (114 acres), quarter as arable (75 acres), 9 fields as meadows (41 acres) which would be fields growing hay, 2 'arable orchards', 1 'pasture orchard', a 'grove' and a 'brake / wood'.

The first national census that is of use for family history was taken in June 1841, just after John died, and it shows that Grosmont was not the family's first home. Sarah is at 'Tressennie' with 6 children of which the three older ones were not born in Monmouthshire. The census entries are shown below.

It was normal at this time for a farmer like Sarah to have unmarried labourers and servants living in the house but the second section above is headed by a woman of 25, described as being of independent means, with a girl of 3, presumably her daughter, and a boy of 10, described as an agricultural labourer. There in no obvious link between this unusual group and the Roberts family. The writing is difficult to read but I think the names were Margaret and Sarah Much and John Rogers but this doesn't shed any light on who they were. (Later on I have deduced a probable link)

Before Tressenny - At St Margarets

So, what of the family before John's untimely death?

The 1851 census is more useful on places of birth and shows that John junior in the 1841 census was born at St Margarets in Herefordshire which is in the hills on the west of the Golden Valley. A search of an index for christenings at St Margarets gave the following entries -

23 July 1815 Charlot Roberts daughter of John and Margaret

9 November 1817 John Roberts son of John and Margaret

22 July 1821 Elenor Roberts daughter of John and Sarah

15 June 1823 John Roberts son of John and Sarah

20 July 1823 Thomas Roberts son of John and Sarah

These entries fit the dates of birth that Martha Colman had already collected for the children but it seems that Sarah was John's second wife. There is also a second son christened John - it would be possible that a second couple called John and Sarah Roberts were living in St Margarets but sometimes two children were given the same name, particularly if the first one died or if the father remarried and the father's name was used again for the first son of the second marriage.

On checking the parish register, however, I found that this John was a copying error and no such entry existed. All the other entries were correct and gave John as farming at "Merdy" which is Maerdy, between Clodock and Abbey Dore, on modern maps. Also Thomas's entry has "Morgan" under Sarah's name, so this may have been her maiden name; However, it seems to have been written in at a different time and I have not been able to find any relevant marriage to confirm this or burials/remarriages to confirm that Sarah was a second wife. There are no entries for either of John's supposed marriages nor the eldest children at St Margarets but more on this later.

There is no christening for Elizabeth who was listed in the 1841 census, even though she comes between John junior and Elenor for whom we do have entries. Sometimes a wife returned to her mother's home when having a child, particularly her first one, and she would sometimes stay long enough to have the child christened there - If John had remarried then Elizabeth could be Sarah's first child. This could explain the absence of Elizabeth's christening but it could be that the clerk or vicar forgot to write the entry in the register or she was christened at one of the other parish churches in the area which are as close to Merdy - I haven't checked their registers yet.

In the Land Tax Returns John first appears at St Margarets in 1814 as tenant of Theophilus Reese, farming Merdy or Maerdy. The Land Tax Rate for the farm was set at £1 4s - I do not know what this means exactly but this is one of the highest rates I have seen so presumably he rented a large farm. The same land was rented by Prossers in the preceding years - It was taken by a Mr Prosser in 1810; the name changes to Thos Prosser in 1812 and John Prosser in the year before John moved in. John Roberts was related to two Prosser families but whether these Prossers were relations can only be speculated. A John Prosser also owned land at St Margarets from 1826 and when John left Maerdy it was not tenanted for two years after which a John Prosser rented it.

Clodock parish registers have an entry for a Philip Jones farming at Merdy in 1813 so 'Merdy' may not have been a single farm.

Sarah and family after John's death

For a long time I did not find any more about the family before St Margarets or on Sarah after the 1841 census, in particular where she lived or when she died - There isn't a gravestone at the church for her.

Family history is often like a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces have become misshapen over time and don't fit together very well. The size of the puzzle depends on how common the surname is so Roberts is fairly difficult. As more pieces fit the overall picture becomes clearer and sometimes some badly fitting pieces are found a place but some pieces that seemed to fit have to be discarded (like the John Roberts thought to be buried in 1810). So, scattered in my notes there were a number of Sarah Roberts entries from Grosmont census returns including the following -

1841 (from above)

Sarah Roberts Age 45 not born in Monmouthshire

Margaret Much Age 25 not born in Monmouthshire

Sarah Much Age 3 not born in Monmouthshire

1851 Sarah Roberts Farmer's Widow Age 50 born Kentchurch

Sarah Meek Grandchild Age 12 born unknown

1861 Sarah Roberts Farmer's Widow Age 20

The Victorian writing in census returns is often difficult to read and a couple of years after copying these entries I noticed the last entry and wondered if the 20 could have been 70 written badly. As the ages in the 1841 census are rounded down to a multiple of 5, Sarah aged 45 could have been 49 which would make her 69 or 70 in 1861. I made a note to recheck the age in the 1861 census.

Similarly the 1851 age could be 60 written badly.

I also looked again at the 1841 Sarah Much entry that I had photocopied - it could be Sarah Meek and the age would fit the 1851 entry (3 in 1841, 12 in 1851). This would make Margaret Much/Meek, in the 1841 census, Sarah's daughter or step-daughter and if the tree below is correct then Margaret would have been 30/31 in 1841 so this nearly fits but not exactly - if she said she was 29 it would have been rounded down to 25. However, if John had two wives, Sarah Meek should have been the step-granddaughter of Sarah Roberts rather than her granddaughter (if they used such a term).

When I rechecked these entries I found the 1861 entry looked more like age 70 than 20 but the entry for 1851 was definitely age 50 - it is unusually clear. Both 1851 and 1861 entries gave the place of birth as Kentchurch.

In those days the census enumerator did not leave a form to be filled in because so many people were illiterate - instead he would probably have asked them the questions and made notes which he later copied into the census book so it is possible that in 1851 he scribbled Sarah's age as 60 at the door and then mis-read it when he was doing the tidy copy. (Another interesting change in census taking is that now enumerators are expected to go to an area where they are not known because people are more willing to give the information to a stranger. In the 1800's the enumerator was expected to be someone who was known and respected by the people in the area).

I have not found when Sarah died but she is not in Grosmont for the 1871 census.

John and Sarah before St Margarets

So it seemed that the 2^nd wife of John Roberts may have been a Sarah Morgan born at Kentchurch around 1790 – 1791. When I searched the parish register for Kentchurch and surrounding parishes I didn't find her but what I did find muddied the water rather than clearing it - no relevant Sarah Morgan entries but the following entries -

25 Jan 1789 Sarah daughter of Dorothy Williams christened

15 Mar 1789 Sarah daughter of William and Elizabeth Davies -

christened

* 1 Jan 1791 Sarah daughter of John and Mary Prosser christened

27 May 1791 Sarah daughter of Thos and Sarah Hutching christened

* 11 Jul 1810 John Roberts married Sarah Prosser

* 30 Sep 1810 Margaret daughter of John and Sarah Roberts christened

and at Kilpeck (near Kentchurch)

* 12 Aug 1812 William son of John and Sarah Roberts christened

and at Kenderchurch (next to Kentchurch)

23 Jul 1807 William illegitimate son of Sarah Morgan christened

(* = Key entries)

The christening of Sarah Prosser, her marriage to John Roberts and the christenings of two children of John and Sarah Roberts, Margaret and William, fit very well with the other information I have on the family except that I thought John had a first wife called Margaret and Sarah's maiden name was Morgan.

Could the Morgan be a red herring though the 1807 entry shows that there was a Sarah Morgan in the area ? Could Sarah have sometimes used the name Margaret ? Its possible though unusual. Did John have 3 wives with both the Sarah's born around the same time and at the same place?

There are still a lot of parish registers in the area to check which may shed light on this.

This information added to what Martha Colman had already collected gives us the tree below for the complete family with the possibility that John only had one wife, Sarah, who sometimes called herself Margaret.

1 Sarah John 2. Margaret 3. Sarah

PROSSER?= ROBERTS = = MORGAN?

x 1791 | | |

1 Jan | b 1786 | There is no evidence that | b ~1791/6

Kentchurch| | John's first wives died | Kentchurch ?

m 11 Jul 1810, Kentchurch | or that John remarried | Herefordshire

| d 1840,31 Dec Age 54| - It could be that his |

| i 1841, 3 Jan, | wife was known as |

| Grosmont | both Sarah and Margaret |

| Farmer at Tressenny | |

/----'-----\ /----'----v- - - - --\ /-- - - ---|

| | | | | | |

Margaret William Charlotte John Elizabeth |

/Charlot (Betty) |

b 1810 b 1812 b 1815 b 1817 b 1819 |

9 Sep 15 Jul 14 Feb 25 Mar 16 Mar |

Kentchurch Kilpeck x 23 Jul x 9 Nov |

= St Margarets, St Margarets, |

MEEK Herefordshire Herefordshire |

|

/----------v----------v---------v-----'--v--------v--------\

| | | | | | |

Ellinor Thomas Richard Henry Sarah Mary Christianna

/Elenor Ann

b 1821 b 1823 b 1825 b 1827 b 1829 b 1831 b 1832

9 Apr 13 Apr 27 Mar 23 Mar 17 May 10 Apr 25 Dec

x 22 Jul x 20 Jul x 26 Jun x 3 Jun x 9 Aug x 22 Apr x 11 Jan

<-- born/baptised --> <------- Born/Baptised at Grosmont ------->

at St Margarets, d Age 6

Herefordshire 23 Apr

i 1835

26 Apr

(b=born, x=christened, d=died, i=interred) Grosmont

The full family of John Roberts of Tresseny

How many wives did John have?

Did John have three wives or were they the same person? I have not resolved this so just to summarise the arguments for and against -

For 3 wives -

- the name of his wife changes in christening entries

- the only possible marriage found is to Sarah Prosser but the christening entry for Thomas gives his mother's name as Sarah Morgan

- daughter Elizabeth was not christened at the local church - mothers sometimes returned to their mother for their first child and this could be the first child of the third wife.

Against 3 wives -

- I have not found any evidence for the deaths of the first two wives or the remarriages

- Both Sarahs seem to have been born at the same place and time

- The 1851 census gives Sarah Meek as Sarah's grandchild but it should have been step-grandchild if there were three wives.

I am inclined to think that John only had one wife but the case isn't proved yet.

The Prossers

I have found a small amount of the information on the family of Sarah Prosser, John's first or only wife which is summarised here.

The family of Sarah Prosser was -

John Prosser = Mary

|

/--------v-------v------+--------v---------v---------\

| | | | | | |

John Thomas Mary Sarah William Richard Hannah

x 1785 x 1787 x 1789 x 1791 x 1792 x 1794 x 1799

30 Dec 7 Oct 8 Mar 1 Jan 15 Dec 8 Dec 1 Sep

All christened at Kentchurch

Earlier Roberts Families

Finding John's family

There are two main pieces of information on John that may help find his christening. First, if John died in 1840 aged 54 then he would have been born in 1786 though ages at death are not always accurate. Second the witnesses at his marriage to Sarah Prosser were Thomas Roberts and Mary Prosser so Thomas was probably a relation and possibly his father.

John lived most of his life in a small area around Kentchurch. The number of Roberts entries in the local area is not as high as might be expected (in fact the indexes for Herefordshire contain twice as many Prossers) so it was possible to make some progress.

There were two boys christened John Roberts in the area at about the right time. The first in 1783 at Kentchurch, where John later married, was the son of James and Mary Roberts; the second in 1786 at Ewyas Harold was the son of Thomas and Margaret Roberts. I checked the first but found no way of linking him to our family so looked further at the second one who exactly fits the facts we have about John and later evidence seems to confirm this to be the right one. I looked for the other children of the first family and didn't find any Thomas but I have not been able to check Uncles and other relations yet.

So John was christened on the 8th of October 1786 at Ewyas Harold, the son of Thomas and Margaret Roberts. Further information on the family is difficult to be certain of because of the state of the Ewyas Harold Parish Registers. They are messy with pages badly faded, entries out of order and some repeated on different pages with different details! I checked a couple of copies of the registers that have been made recently in the hope they had been able to make more sense of the information but didn't find any extra information though in one case a child's name was different in the copy so I am not sure how good these copies are.

In addition there was a Thomas and Elizabeth Roberts in Ewyas Harold at the same time and some christening entries only give the father's name so we do not know which Thomas is referred to.

The full list of entries at Ewyas Harold seems to be -

William son of Thos christened 30 Mar 1777

Richard son of Thomas christened 12 Mar 1780

James son of Thos and wife christened 1 Dec 1782

Margaret daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth christened 23 Apr 1786

John son of Thomas and Margaret christened 8 Oct 1786

Nancy daughter of Thos and Margaret christened 10 Aug 1788

Betty daughter of Thomas and Margt born 30 Jan 1791 and

christened 20 Feb 1791

Margaret daughter of Thomas and Margaret christened 29 Jan 1797

William son of Thomas and Margaret christened 12 Feb 1800

My guess is that only Thomas and Elizabeth were living in Ewyas Harold at first and so only the father's name was given in the first three entries. When Thomas and Margaret moved to Ewyas Harold they started putting the mother's name to distinguish between the couples. (This may be confirmed later by the Land Tax returns).

Further research brought to light another important family member. The Tithe Returns of 1837 for Ewyas Harold list a Thomas Roberts not only farming a large farm but owning it. At first I thought this might have been John's father but when I checked the census returns I found that this Thomas was born in Ewyas Harold only five years before John. Looking at the Parish Register, however, there was no Thomas Roberts recorded as being christened there at that time.

The census entries for this Thomas show that he did not marry but had nieces and nephews living with him -

Names | Age | PROFESSION, TRADE | Born In

| and Sex| EMPLOYMENT | This County

| | | or OF | (Yes/No)

|Male|Fem| INDEPENDENT MEANS |

| | | |

Thomas Roberts | 58 | | Farmer | Y

Eleanor Prosser | | 20| | Y

Ann Prosser | | 18| | Y

John Prosser | 17 | | | Y

(The ages over 15 are supposed to be rounded down to a multiple

of 5 but obviously weren't in this case)

1841 Census - Ewias Harold

Name |Relation | Age | Rank, Profession |

|to Head | of | | Where Born

| of Cond-| | | or Occupation |

|Family|ition|Mal|Fem| |

| | | | | |

Thomas Roberts | Head | Unm |70 | | Farmer | Ewias Harold

Eleanor Prosser |Niece | Unm | |36?| | Ewias Harold

Ann Prosser |Niece | Unm | |30 | | Ewias Harold

John Prosser |Nephew| Unm |28?| | | Ewias Harold

1851 Census - Ewias Harold

From this we have an Eleanor Prosser born 1814-1821, Ann born 1820-1823, and John born 1822-1824 all at Ewyas Harold, all nieces or nephews of Thomas Roberts. I looked for the parents of these nephews and nieces as this should give a brother or sister of Thomas and confirm his link with the family.

John was easy to find, the son of Thomas and Nancy Prosser, christened in 1822. The Ewyas Harold parish register has the following entries -

John son of Thomas and Nancy Prosser christened 24th Jan 1822

William son of Thomas and Nancy Prosser christened 8th Aug 1824

Elizabeth dau of Thomas and Nancy Prosser christened 17th Sep 1826

Joseph son of Thomas and Nancy Prosser christened 1st Dec 1829

Esther son of Thomas and Nancy Prosser christened 6th May 1832

A further search found the following census entry which shows Nancy, now a widow, living at Abbey Dore, with the eldest son born at Kilpeck.

Name |Relation | Age | Rank, Profession |

|to Head | of | | Where Born

| of Cond-| | | or Occupation |

|Family|ition|Mal|Fem| |

| | | | | |

Nancy Prosser | Head | Wid | | 62| Farmer of 160a | Hereford Ewyas Harold

Thomas Prosser | Son | Un |35?| | Farmer's Son | Hereford Kilpeck

William Prosser | Son | Un |27 | | " " | Hereford Ewyas Harold

Joseph Prosser | Son | Un |21?| | Farmer's Son | Hereford Ewyas Harold

Elizabeth Prosser | Daur | Un | | 25| " Daughter | Hereford Ewyas Harold

Hester Prosser | Daur | " | | 18| " " | Hereford Ewyas Harold

William Prosser Grandson " | 12| | ? | Hereford Dulas

Margaret Prosser Granddaughter| | 11| Scholar | Hereford Ewyas Harold

1851 Census - Cwm Farm, Abbey Dore

Assuming Thomas Roberts was a true Uncle, he must have been a brother of Nancy and this census shows Nancy to have been born in Ewyas Harold around 1788-1789 so this must have been Nancy Roberts who was christened in 1788. Thomas must have been another son of Thomas and Margaret and he says he was born in Ewyas Harold but his christening is not recorded there.

It seems that this Thomas Roberts died in 1855, aged 74 or 75 (I'm going to have to check this again as I seem to have different ages in different notes), and was buried at Kenderchurch on the 21st of February next to John and Elizabeth Crump who were Margaret's parents. Since people were often buried in family plots it is quite likely that Thomas was related to the Crumps and so was probably another child of Thomas and Margaret.

Trying to find more about John's parents, there is only one Thomas Roberts marrying a Margaret Thomas anywhere in that area at the time that I have been able to find. Thomas marrying Margaret Crump at Kenderchurch on the 12th of May 1777. Their first child, John, was christened at Kenderchurch on the 8th of March 1778 but died a year later and was buried at Kenderchurch on the 28th of May 1779. In 1782 another son, William, was buried at Kenderchurch on the 5th of June.

So Thomas would seem to be the eldest surviving son and the full family that we know of is -

Thomas ROBERTS⁴ = Margaret??¹

x 1756,23 Jan⁴ } x 1755,27 Apr,

Ewyas Harold } Kenderchurch

m 1777, 12 May, Kenderchurch¹

/----------v---------v-------------v======'-----v---------v----------v-----------\

| | ?? | } | | | |

John¹ Thomas William John¹ Nancy¹ Betty¹ Margaret¹ William¹

x 1778, b~1780 x 1786, 8 Oct¹ b 1791 x 1800,

8 Mar¹ /83²MI Ewyas Harold x 1788, 3 Jan¹ x 1797, 12 Feb¹

Kender- E H² i 1782 m 11 Jul 1810, 10 Aug¹ x 20 Feb 29 Jan¹ Ewyas

church d 1855 5 June Kentchurch Ewyas Ewyas Ewyas Harold

i 1779, 21 Feb Kender- d 1840, 31 Dec Harold Harold Harold i 1800,

28 May Kender- church¹ i 1841, 3 Jan, 30 Mar¹

Kender- church¹(MI) Grosmont Kenderchurch

church¹ Age 74/75

Sources ¹ = Parish Registers/Bishop's Transcripts ² = Census Returns

³ = Family Documents and members ⁴ = Genealogical Index (IGI)

MI = Monumental Inscriptions/Graves

Thomas seems quite old to be a scholar, none of the older children have occupations and there are no lodgers - this may imply that they were doing fairly well, it being a prosperous time for farmers, but this is only a guess.

With the children now growing up it is not surprising that there were many changes in the following decade. I do not know when they left home but by 1881 all the children had gone though they have one grandchild with them at the time of the census.

I presume that John must have retired sometime after 1881 and moved to Llangua, the next parish, because this is where he was living when he died in 1888 aged 71. He was buried at Grosmont on May 4th. Lucy moved to Ross and died there in 1894 - she was also buried at Grosmont, on October 9th - her age is given in the registers as 81 which is again older than she would have been if the ages given in the census' are correct. Their grave is next but one to John's father and says -

In Loving Memory Of

JOHN ROBERTS

of this parish

Who Died April 29th 1888

Aged 71 Years

------

"We loved him, ah no tongue can tell

How much we loved him, or how well

God loved him too, and thought it best

To have him home to be at rest"

------

Also Of LUCY His Wife

Who Died OCT 4 1894

Aged 81 Years

------

"Not lost but gone before"

Either this John Roberts or his father bought land for Grosmont Chapel to use for £7 10s

John Sarah John Elizabeth

Roberts = Davies =

| |

of Tressenny Inn Keeper |

| /---------'--------\

| | |

John Roberts = Lucy Davies Charlotte Davies

|

b 1817 | b~1812/3 b 1812/3

Mar 25 | Hay Hay

St Margaret,| x 1813 Dec 8 x 1813 Jan 24

Herefordshire | Whitney Whitney

m 1848, 4 Dec|Pontypool,Mon

Farmer, Little Birches, Grosmont

|

/-----------v--------------------+----------------v----------\

| | | | |

Agnes Elizabeth John Thomas Charlotte

b 1849 b 1852 b 1853, 15 Oct b 1855 b 1859

Little Birches, Grosmont

x 1849 x 1853 x 1854, 7 May x 1856 x 1859

Jul 14! Jan 1 Grosmont 17 Feb Dec 11

Grosmont Grosmont Monmouthshire Grosmont Grosmont

John and Lucy's Children and their families

I am sure that there are others who can tell much more about John and Lucy's children but I will give what I know for the moment.

Agnes Roberts

Agnes married Robert Sperring in 1875 and their daughter, Lucy, shown in the census above, was 3 in 1881 - she was born at Treherbert which is in the Rhondda. Robert, Agnes, Ada and Lilian were at Lowefield Cottages, Childer Thornton, Cheshire in the 1881 census where Robert was working as a railway porter.

Agnes Betsey Roberts = Robert Sperring

|

m ~Sep 1875

/--------v--------v--------v----'---v--------v--------v--------\

| | | | | | | |

Ernest Gilbert Ada Lucy Lily Minnie Bertha Pearl

= HARRIS

There is a photo of Agnes with her husband and family which looks like three sons and five daughters but one of them that looks like a boy is quite unclear and may be a girl. From the ages of the children and the fashion of the clothes they are wearing it would seem that it was taken at the end of the last century.

They emigrated to America and contact with them was lost - they presumably left sometime after the photo was taken because the background looks like a British house but this could be misleading.

Recently contact was made with a researcher interested in the name Sperring and as a result members of the family have been found in Canada and the USA and contact has been re-established. (I need to add more on what we have found)

Elizabeth Roberts

Elizabeth married George Johns and had 7 children - 5 sons and two daughters. George was a clothier in Ross and they built the house, "Grosmont", in Walford Road, Ross, where Jack and Martha Colman now live. (The builder was Mr Lewis who was father in law of one of their sons). I presume that Elizabeth's mother, Lucy, was living with or near them when she died but I do not know if this was the case.

Leslie Johns farmed at Oakfields (Hoarwithy) which Frank bought from Bert Carter but I think he later joined the air-force. Jean lived at Kings Caple.

Dennis Johns joined the forces before World War II and was accidently shot and killed in the World War II. He was on leave at the time of Mary Keene's wedding at Fawley and this was the last time that he was seen by the family.

John Roberts (III)

In 1881 John and Charlotte were still unmarried and were living at another farm, Little Marlborough, half a mile from Little Birches.

John Roberts | Head | Unm |27 | | Farmer 75 1/2 acres | Mon Grosmont

Charlotte do |sister| do | |21 | Farmers daughter | do do

William Yates | serv | do |24 | | Farm Labourer | do do

James Burford | do | |15 | | do do indoor | do do

1881 Census - Grosmont, Little Marlborough

When John was about twenty one he married Sarah Jane Price who had grown up near the Roberts' in Grosmont. I will cover this John and Sarah later.

Tom Roberts

Thomas married Jessie Owen and they had two daughters Lucy and Etty. They lived at Merthyr Tydfil

Thomas Roberts = Jessie Owen

|

/------------------'-------------\

| |

Lucy = Tom ROWLANDS Etty = Ellis GRIFFITHS

| |

| /--------v--'------\

| | | /--'--\

David Margaret Yvonne Jean Joyce

| = Peter

| JACKSON

/-----'-----\

| |

Jonathan Mark

(Doctor

in London)

Charlotte Roberts

Charlotte married Jack Hodges in 1881 or 1882 and for some time they lived at Grosmont Mill and Skenfrith Mill but later moved to the Newport area.

I presume that Jack was related to the Hodges family mentioned earlier who were at the mill in 1851 though I haven't checked this.

Charlotte Roberts = Jack Hodges

|

/-----------v-------------+---------------v-----------------v------\

| | | | | |

Tom Benjamin Robert Evangeline Lucy Lily John

| Clara = Pullen Charles

| (Emigrated to (Emigrated to |

| Canada) Canada) | d 1883

| /-'-\ /-'-\ |

David Two sons Two sons Edith Kate JOSLYN

| (lives at Fownhope)

Mary Lou

(lives in Ross)

/--'--\

Tom Bridget

One son is buried between the two John Roberts graves in Grosmont churchyard -

In Loving Memory Of

JOHN CHAS

Son of John and Charlotte Hodges

Died in 1885 Aged 2 Years

He Shall Gather The Lambs In His Bosom

There is a Sarah Hodges buried at Barton Hall, Hereford, who was the daughter of William and Elizabeth Hodges of Grosmont and was 21 when she died on the 27th of September 1860. I don't know if these were relations of Charles Hodges but it is possible. Nor do I know if they were members of Barton Hall (some people did travel a long way to non-conformist chapels) or if she was buried there because there wasn't a non-conformist burial ground at Grosmont.

The Hodges that lived a Grosmont Mill were given in the 1851 census as -

The Prices

John Roberts married Sarah Jane Price who had grown up at the mill and farm at Hoaldalbert which is one mile east of Little Birches. It seems that her father, Floyd Price, had moved a few times before coming here in about 1862 when Sarah was a baby and John about 10.

Floyd Price's Family

Floyd said he was born at Bryngwyn, Radnorshire, 5 miles north of Hay in about 1825 on his marriage certificate. His father was given as Richard, a labourer and a miller, which may be where Floyd learnt milling. I have looked for his baptism at Bryngwyn but have not found it. There are, however, four entries between 1826 and 1833 for children of a Richard and Martha Price who lived at Rhos-Goch in the parish of Bryngwyn. Richard is given as a labourer and later a miller matching his marriage certificate, and in 1870 a Martha Price died at Hoaldalbert aged 79, presumably Floyd's mother, so it seems to make it likely that these were his parents. Perhaps the family came to live there just after he was born and he assumed that he was born there (or perhaps the curate forget to enter him in the register).

There are some entries in Kilvert's diary referring to Rhos Goch Mill. Francis Kilvert was a curate at Clyro and wrote his diary there in the early 1870s. They refer back to an earlier time than this though there is no reason to think that they refer to our family but the entries are worth including here as they give an impression of life in the area. In March 1870 he writes -

"I decided to explore the lane running parallel with the brook towards Painscastle and discover the old Rhos Goch Mill. There was a good deal of water and suddenly I came upon the mill pond and the picturesque old mill with an overshot wheel. I crossed one of the streams on a larch felled across the water for a bridge and came back round the front of the cosy old picturesque ivy-grown mill house with its tall chimney completely covered with ivy. A handsome young man with a fine open face, fresh complexion and dressed as a miller was having a romp with a little girl before the door. He said his name was Powell, his father was dead and he carried on the business and with the most perfect politeness and well bred courtesy asked me to come in and sit down. So this is the place that I have heard old Hannah Whitney talk of so often, the place where the old miller sleeping in the mill trough used to see the fairies dancing of nights upon the mill flour."

In October 1870 he wrote - "I turned in to old Hannah's and sat with her an hour talking over old times, and listening to her reminiscences and tales of the dear old times, the simple primitive times 'in the Bryngwyn' nearly ninety years ago. She remembers how, when she was a very little girl, she lived with her grandfather and grandmother, old Walter Whitney (who was about ninety) and his wife. In the winter evenings, some of the old neighbours, friends of her grandfather, used to come in for a chat, especially old Prothero, William Price and William Greenway, contemporaries of her grandfather, and all men born about the beginning of the 18th or the end of the 17th century. These old people would sit round the fire talking on the long winter evenings, and Hannah then a child of 8 or 10 would sit on a little stool by her grandfather's chair in the chimney corner listening while they told their old world stories and tales of 'the fairies' in whom they fully believed. There was the 'Wild Duck Pool' above Newbuilding. To this pool the people used to come on Easter morning to see the sun dance and play in the water and the angels who were at the Resurrection playing backwards and forwards before the sun. There was also the 'sheep cot pool' below Wernwg, where Hob with his lantern was to be seen, only Hannah never saw him. But when people were going to market on Thursday mornings they would exhort one another to come back in good time lest they should be led astray by the Goblin Lantern, and the boys would wear their hats the wrong way lest they should be enticed into the fairy rings and made to dance. Then the story of the girl of Llan Pica who was led astray by the fairies and at last killed by them, and the story of the old man who slept in the mill trough as the Rhos Goch Mill and used to hear the fairies come in at night and dance to sweet fiddles on the mill floor. Hannah living in 'the Bryngwyn' wore a tall Welsh hat till she was grown up'.

The next entry is nothing to do with our story but is also worth repeating - "Old James Jones was breaking stones below Pentwyn. He told me how he had once cured his deafness for a time by pouring hot eel oil into his ear, and again by sticking into his ear an 'elldern' (elder) twig, and wearing it there night and day. The effect of the eel oil at first was, he said, to make his head and brains feel full of crawling creatures.'

Kilvert's diaries give an interesting picture of life in this area in the Victorian era.

Floyd married Sarah's mother, Margaret Edwards, at Plough Chapel, Brecon on the 13th September 1858. The marriage certificate gives the following -

| | | | | | Father's

|Age|Condition|Occupation| Residence | Father |Occupation

-----v---------+---+---------+----------+---------------+----------+----------

| Floyd | 31| Widower | Miller & | Llanarth Mill | Richard | Miller

Sept | Price | | | Farmer |Llanvapley, Mon|(deceased)|

13th |---------+---+---------+----------+---------------+----------+----------

1858 | Margaret| 24|Spinster | House | Money Lane | Thomas | Labourer

| Edwards | | | Keeper | Brecon | Edwards |

-----'---------'---'---------'----------'---------------'----------'----------

Floyd and Margaret's Marriage Certificate

Though he married at Brecon he was living at Llanvapley 7 miles south of Grosmont and 4 miles east of Abergavenny.

His condition was given as widower so I searched for his first marriage - having grown up hearing the name Floyd in the family I had not realised how rare it was - there was no other Floyd Price married in England or Wales in the 15 years before 1858; the only possible entry was a Flyde Price in 1849 so I ordered this certificate which gave the following information -

Marriage at Carmel Chapel, Beaufort in the district of Crickhowell

| | | | | | Father's

|Age|Condition|Occupation| Residence | Father |Occupation

-----v----------+---+---------+----------+-------------+----------+----------

| Flyde | 23|Bachelor | Miner | Brynmawr | Richard | Labourer

14th | Price | | | | Llanelly | Price |

Jan |----------+---+---------+----------+-------------+----------+----------

1849 | Susannah | 19|Spinster | | Brynmawr | Rees | Collier

| Davis | | | | Llangattock | Davies |

-----'----------'---'---------'----------'-------------'----------'----------

Floyd's First Marriage Certificate

I presume this is Floyd since the age and fathers' name fit, however, everything else has changed. He was then living at Llanelly, north west of Abergavenny and, since he is a miner he may have worked at the nearby Clydach Iron Mines. Susannah is at Llangattock, three miles away and just across the River Usk from Crickhowell but they married at Beaufort which is five miles to the south west, the other side of Llanelly so this may mean that Beaufort was her home area. At this time Floyd/Flyde could not sign his name though Susannah could, but by his second marriage he could so it is possible that his first wife taught him to write which was a common occurrence then. I have not done any research into Flyde and Susannah so I do not know whether they had any children or when she died.

Floyd's full family details were –

Rees Richard Martha

DAVIES = PRICE =

| | b ~1790/1

Collier | Labourer/| d 1870, 21 Jun

| Miller | Hoald Albert

| /--------------------------+------v------v-------\

| | | | | |

? 1. Susannah = Flyde / Floyd = 2. Margaret Henry David Emma Elizabeth

Davis Price Price | Edwards

b 1829/30 b 1825/6 | b 1832 / 4 x1826 x1827 x1829 x 1833

Bryngwyn, | 13Mar 24Jun 4 Oct 7 Nov

Radnorshire | Lower Chapel, All at Bryngwyn, Radnorshire

m 14 Jan 1849 m 13 Sep 1858|Plough Chapel, d 1830

Carmel Chapel, Brecon 31 Oct

Beaufort, Miner Miller | i Bryngwyn

nr Crickhowell And Farmer|

|

Floyd's family

Since Abergavenny would have been a focal point for the area it is not surprising that by the time of his second marriage he was at Llanarth Mill just the other side of the town.

Margaret Edwards' family (Floyd's Wife)

From what his second wife, Margaret Edwards, said in census returns, she was born in about 1832 - 1834 at Lower Chapel, a small hamlet 5 miles north of Brecon. Again I have searched the parish registers with similar results as Floyd. This time it is more difficult to work out where to look because Lower Chapel is remote and they could have gone to one of a number of parish churches. There isn't an entry for a Margaret Edwards in any of them but there are some entries which could be her family in Llanfihangel Fechan between 1824 and 1837. There were five children of Thomas and Sarah Edwards baptised with a small gap in the years when Margaret would have been born and Margaret's mother has the same name as Floyd's second daughter.

In addition to these children I have been told that there was another brother called Tom.

If this was Margaret's family then her family details were –

Thomas = Sarah ??

EDWARDS |

|

Labourer |

|

/-----v-------v-------+----v---v------v-------\

/-----'-- | | | <--/ | | |?

Floyd 2. Margaret David William Rees Mary Hannah Tom

Price = Edwards

b 1825/6 | b 1832 / 4 x 1824 x 1827 x 1829 x 1834 x1837

Bryngwyn, | 1 Apr 4 Jan 14 Apr 28 Mar 26 Jan

Radnorshire | Lower Chapel, <----- Llanfihangel Fechan, ---------->

m 13 Sep 1858|Plough Chapel, Breconshire

Brecon

Miller |

And Farmer|

|

Floyd, Margaret and their family

Floyd and Margaret lived at Llanvaple for a few years and their first two children, Martha and Sarah, were born there. I looked for them on the 1861 census return which might have shown if Floyd had any children from his first marriage there but I could not find them. Unfortunately during the 1800's people did not think that the old census returns would be of any use and so they were not stored properly and were moved between the store rooms of various government bodies, spending some years in the roof of the House of Commons, and at some point the Llanvaple returns have been damaged, losing the first few pages - I presume the family was on one of those pages.

I have also searched for Sarah's birth certificate or baptism without success - Sarah Price is a very common name and there are a few in the area but none of these seem to fit. We are not allowed to search the original birth certificates and only have the indexes to look at. (A check can be made to see if the certificates have particular details on them and I checked some for the parents names of Floyd and Margaret but they said that none of the certificates had either of these names on them).

According to the next census, 1871, Sarah was born at Llanvaple in 1861/2 and Alice at Grosmont in 1863/4 so they must have moved in 1862 or 1863. I presume they moved straight into the Mill at Hoaldalbert (possibly taking over from a John and Elizabeth Roberts (not relations as far as I know) who were there in 1859).

On the 21st June 1870 a Martha Price died at Hoaldalbert aged 79; this was presumably Floyd's mother and corroborates the entries in the Bryngwyn parish register.

Here Sarah's middle name is given as Annie instead of Jane - without the earlier census or birth entries I cannot tell if this is a one off or if she changed her middle name after this. (This was the period when more people started having middle names and some who were not given them at birth would add one so sometimes middle names did change).

At this time they have five daughters aged 2 to 11 and they had one more 3 years later. Floyd died in 1876, before the next census, and their eldest daughter, Martha, married Charles Hodges who moved into the house which the 1881 census no longer describes as a mill.

The third daughter, Alice, is not there - when someone is missing it is impossible to say whether they were just away for that night or have moved out permanently.

(The entry was completed incorrectly because relationships were supposed to be to the head of the household which is given as Charles so all the 'daur's should be given as sister-in-law - I'm sure the enumerator didn't think that he looked old enough to have a 19 year old daughter).

Floyd died in 1876 and Margaret in 1890.

1. Susannah = Flyde / Floyd 2. Margaret

Davis Price Price = Edwards

b 1829/30 b 1825/6 | b 1832 / 4

Bryngwyn, |

Radnorshire | Lower Chapel,Breconshire

m 14 Jan 1849 m 13 Sep 1858 | Plough Chapel,

Carmel Chapel, Brecon

Beaufort, Miner Miller |

nr Crickhowell And Farmer |

|

d 1876 | d 1890

|

/----------------v-------------v-------'------v----------------v-----------\

| | | | | |

| | | | | |

Martha Price Sarah Jane PRICE Alice Margret Elizabeth Mary Matilda Amy

Sarah Annie PRICE PRICE or Elizabeth Margret (Tillie) Harriet

b. 1859/60 b. 1861 / 2 b 1863/4 b 1866/7 b 1868/9 b 1874/5

Llanvaple Llanvaple Grosmont Grosmont Grosmont

Monmouthshire Monmouthshire

Summary of Floyd and Margaret's Family

Floyd and Margaret's Children and their families

Again there are others who could fill in more on the children of Floyd and Margaret and I would be pleased if more could be added to the outline I have here.

Martha Price

Martha had married Charles Hodges by 1881 and they were living at Hoald Albert Farm. They had five sons and their family, as far as I know it, is as follows -

Charles HODGES = Martha Price

|

b 1859/60 | b. 1859/60

St Maughans | Llanvaple

Monmouthshire| Monmouthshire

|

/---------------------------v-------------+---------------v---------\

| | | | |

Charles = Agnes JOHNS Floyd Manley Jack Alfred

| | |

| /--------+--------\ /----'----\

| | | | | |

Jean William Phyllis Valerie Rosemary Dianna

HODGES

Here we come across the first of the complications in the family tree because Charles Hodges junior married his cousin Agnes Johns, daughter of George and Elizabeth Johns (nee Roberts) whose tree was shown earlier in the section on the Roberts family.

Sarah Jane Price

Sarah married John Roberts who has already been covered and I will give more on them below.

Alice Price and Elizabeth Margaret Price

All I know of Alice at the moment is that she married a Sydney Francis Farr and she died 1920.

I am not sure if the next daughter should be Elizabeth Margaret or Margaret Elizabeth as the 1871 and 1881 census returns give different orders. Again my only information on her is the name of her husband Albert Bevan.

Mary Matilda Price and the Coles

Mary Matilda married Alfred George Cole of Grosmont. His parents, Joseph James and Mary Ann Cole were both born in Hereford but all their children were born at Grosmont between 1860 and 1874. They had a shop in Grosmont where Joseph was a Grocer, Draper and, later, Postmaster.

Joseph's mother in law is Annie Edmunds and a family of Edmunds had a grocer's shop in Grosmont in the 1851 census. There isn't an Annie or Mary in that family so it isn't clear whether that was a related family or not.

In 1895 Alfred Cole is listed as a farmer in Grosmont. They had four children - The first daughter, Daisy, married Charles Honey whose family were builders in Hereford. Their son, Joe, married late but I do not have any other information on him. The last two daughters , known as Pattie and Minnie, married two brothers, Dennis and Reginald Michael.

Joseph Cole died on the 16th August 1904 and Mary on the 30th September 1915 - both are buried at Grosmont. Their gravestone also includes details of the death of their son Joseph and his wife Lettie who died at Southampton.

Amy Harriet Price

I do not know anything about Floyd and Margaret's fifth daughter.

The Story so Far

This tree summarises the families that have been covered by showing all the direct ancestors of John and Sarah Jane.

Roberts / Price

John and Sarah Jane Roberts (nee Price)

John Roberts married Sarah Jane Price at Grosmont on the 31st of January 1883. The standard statement on the marriage certificate is filled in to read 'Married in the Room according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Brethren by Certificate by me, William Seward, ....ister, Thomas Lewis, Registrar'. (Part is rubbed or damaged - does it say minister?)

| | | | | Father's

|Age|Condition| Residence | Father |Occupation

-----v----------+---+---------+------------------+--------------+----------

Thirty| John | 29|Bachelor | Birches,Grosmont | John Roberts | Farmer

First| Roberts | | | | |

January|----------+---+---------+------------------+--------------+----------

1883 |Sarah Jane| 21|Spinster | Hoaldalbert | Floyd Price | Farmer &

| Price | | | Grosmont | | Miller

-----'----------'---'---------'------------------'--------------'----------

Witnesses - Thomas Roberts and Alice Price

John and Sarah's Marriage Certificate

Having started at Grosmont John and Sarah farmed at a number of different places. Their first move, before their first child was born in 1885, was to Trewen near Whitchurch just off the Ross to Monmouth road where they were for the 1891 census. John's nephew Frank Johns was with them for the night of the census; we have no way of knowing if he was just visiting or if he stayed for a longer period.

After that they moved a short distance to Trebandy House. One source tells me that they were there until 2nd February 1907 but the diary entry below implies that they had moved to Much Fawley by 1905. It seems that they were farming both farms for a while.

When they moved to Much Fawley the Bellamy's moved from there to Fawley Court. (Timothy Powell, whose daughter, Rose, was to marry Floyd Aubrey, had farmed Fawley Court until 29th September 1900 but had taken on Ballingham Court from the 2nd February 1900).

The full family of John and Sarah was -

John Roberts = Sarah Jane PRICE

|

b. 1853, Grosmont | b. 1861 / 2

Monmouthshire | Llanvaple

m 1883, 31 Jan, Grosmont Brethren

|

/--------v--------v--------v--------+--------v--------v--------v--------\

| | | | | | | | |

Floyd Amy Margaret Agnes John Charlotte Tom Jessie Joseph

Aubrey Elizabeth Lucy Martha Hedley Dorothy Sydney Alice James

b 1885 (Tiny) (Pattie) (Jack) Price Matilda (Joe)

= = = = (Topsy) =

Rose Edith Stanley Mary = Georgina

Powell DAVIS ADAMS JONES James (Gean)

WILLIAMS INCOL

The Family of John and Sarah Jane Roberts

The following is part of a diary entry of a visitor to Much Fawley, printed in a local paper - "The writer Effie Allen (nee Connigrove) born 1870, was on her first trip from South Australia to the United Kingdom in 1905 and was making a special trip to Much Fawley. She made a day trip from London taking the train to Ross and hiring a carriage to drive her to Much Fawley. The whole trip taking thirteen hours -

'I alighted {from the hired Landau} amongst a number of large stables and out-buildings and enquired from a nice little girl who lived at Much Fawley, she told me the Bellamy's had moved to Fawley Court and a Mrs Roberts lived there, so I asked her to take me to her. We went round an old little church down a few steps and then she opened an old gate and there I was standing at the door of my mother's birthplace. Over the front door was a rustic trellis and at the other end the little glass house that I had heard her speak of.

'The house is an old-fashioned looking two-storey one built on a hill and as you stand at the front door you look right down the Wye which flows just at the foot, away as far as the eyes can see are fields with hedges and hill and vale country.

'Mrs Roberts, a rather pleasant looking woman appeared and I explained I was a stranger ... and as it was my mother's birthplace I wanted to ask if I might look around it.

'She asked me inside into the sitting room a nice large altho rather low room with large beams across it. There was a casement window or sort of bay window looking out in the garden towards the Wye.

'In the wall near the window were two small doors evidently an old fashioned cupboard and also a door near out of which I could see an archway and old fashioned staircase. There was also a piece taken out of the room and a door to it, a fireplace and two other doors and the one side of the room was wainscoted with wood. ...

'She said the Bellamy's had lived there 50 years, she and her husband had only been there four times she did not seem to like it much and told me she had nine children and there was not much in it but hard work.

'She very kindly sent for the key to the church as she thought I would like to see inside, she said they did not go they were dissenters. Her son a rather nice looking young fellow of 20 turned the key and left me in that little old quaint place alone. ...

'When I returned to the house Mrs Roberts had kindly got me a nice little tea, lovely bread, cake tea and cream which I did enjoy. ...'

'I returned to the carriage and we returned a different way...'

The 'four times' could mean that they still lived at Trebandy at that time. The son mentioned would have been her eldest, Aubrey.

Land owners could give a years notice to tenants and this is what their landlord did because of their strong pro-Liberal views so they left Much Fawley and John bought Upton Court at Tysoe in Warwickshire. While there his eldest son, Aubrey, started renting a neighbouring farm at the bottom of the hill that Upton Court was on. John sold that farm and bought Day House at Tidenham near Chepstow but Aubrey continued on his farm as Tysoe with one of his sisters as housekeeper. Aubrey then bought and moved to Bromley in 1912.

I will finish the main part of the family history there as I probably know less than most on their family. The following are brief notes about John and Sarah's children and their families - some of them could do with a few more details, if anyone can provide me with information then I will add it.

Further notes

Floyd Aubrey

Floyd Aubrey was born in 1885 and baptised as an adult in a brook at Trewen.

He married Rose Powell, daughter of Timothy Powell, at Henry Street Chapel in Ross on the 4th of June 1912. Rose had lived as Fawley Court but her family moved to Ballingham Court at the same time as the Roberts family took Much Fawley. I'm told that Aubrey would cycle from Tysoe to Ballingham when he was courting Rose. They lived at Bromley Court and their family was born there.

Floyd Aubrey Roberts = Rose Powell

|

/---------v---------v----'----v---------v---------\

| | | | | |

Frank Mary Floyd Tom Gordon Douglas

?b 1918? b 1922

21 Feb

Floyd died young (when he was about 5 ?).

They bought The Elms at Tibberton in 1936, originally with the intention that Leslie Johns would farm there but Aubrey, Rose, Tom, Gordon and Douglas moved there though they continued to return to Hoarwithy often and attended the chapel there. Frank stayed at Bromley with Mary and then married Mary Ware on 21 May 1937. Tom took Crooks Farm near Newent in 1938. The family moved to Fawley Court in 1939 and Mary married Wilfred Keene from there on the 4th January 1940. They kept the Elms on for 8 years and Tom drove to Crooks each day with Douglas who cycled on to Tibberton. Tom married Ivy on the 29th March 1947.

(All possible land was supposed to be ploughed for crops during the war however several ploughing orders had to be cancelled due to seed failures including 16 acres at Fawley Court (probably in 1944) (From Landscape Origins of the Wye Valley ed. Heather Hurley).

Floyd Hodges had moved to farm Staly House at Stalybridge near Manchester but in the 1930's Aubrey took over this, with someone else having the farm's milk round. They used to transfer cattle between there and Fawley by train initially but, after an incident where railway personnel decided to put down an animal that was lame with no compensation being paid, they bought a lorry to do the transporting themselves. It was possible to do a round trip in a day taking about six hours each way.

Guys Hospital bought Tresseck Farm from the Austens (because they wanted to get money out of London in anticipation of damage that might be done during the war) – this may have been late in 1939 (according to family) or they may have tried to sell it in 1939 but the sale to Guys actually happened 2-3 years later (according to book on Tresseck). Aubrey wanted land away from Fawley because he had too many cows testing positive for TB and wanted somewhere separate to keep them where the calves could be born and then taken back to Fawley at a young age, free of TB. He took on Tresseck for this and Gordon farmed it during the war. When Frank moved to Shobdon, Gordon moved into Bromley and Douglas took over Tresseck. When Guys decided to rationalize their holding they decided to sell Tresseck because it was separate to their other land and the family bought it. (I do not know which year they bought it). Aubrey and Rose left Fawley at Easter 1957(?) and moved to Hill Crest, the house they had built at Hoarwithy.

Frank Johns had bought Oakfields, next to Bromley, from Bert Powell (do I mean Carter?) for his son, Leslie, to farm but later Gordon bought Oakfields from the Johns and Leslie joined the airforce.

Timothy Powell had bought Hollington Farm from the Holme Lacy Park Estate and Stephen Powell farmed there with, perhaps, Bert and Lily, Stephen's sister, having the river meadows along with Ballingham Court. Initially Wilfred and Mary Keene farmed at Wantage but his father bought Hollington and they moved there.

Farm Histories

I haven't yet got the full details of who farmed what and when but the following is a list of entries from various directories. The information may, of course, be out of date by the time that the directory is published.

1870 Tresseck Thomas Smyth

Bromley Henry Lickford

1891 The Tump, Fownhope Fras Timothy Powell

Tresech Thomas Smyth

1895 Treyseck Thomas Smyth

1900 Treyseck Thomas Smyth

Fawley Court Timothy Powell

1909 Lower Ballingham Timothy F Powell

Fawley Court Edmund Bellamy

Tresseck Thomas Smyth

1929 Bromley Court Floyd Aubrey Roberts

Tresseck Geo Llewellyn Baker

Oakfields Stephen Powell

Fawley Ct (>150 acres) E J Bellamy and Son

1937 Bromley Court Floyd Aubrey Roberts

Tresseck (<150 acres) Geo Llewellyn Baker

Hollington Farm (<150a) Stephen Powell

1941 Fawley Ct (>150 acres) F A Roberts

Bromley Ct (>150 acres) Frank Jn Price Roberts

Hollington (>150 acres) Stephen Powell

Tresseck Austin Baker

Tresseck Census returns

1841 Township of Tresseck

William Dobson 45 Farmer

Ann Knill 20 Independent. Housekeeper

Susannah Rainbow? 20 Female Servant

James Porter 25 Male Servant

Thomas Cooke 25 Male Servant

George Carter 15 Male Servant

William Williams 15 Male Servant

(Ages rounded down to multiple of 5 years)

Followed by entries for Tresseck Drapers Mill, Lawn Cottage, Lower Cottage, Cheeses Barn. There are also households at Red Rail and a lot at Wye Hill as well as Hoarwithy.

1881 Tresseck Farm

Place of Birth

Thomas Smythe 33 Farmer of 196 acres Ballingham

employing 5 men and 2 boys

Elizabeth " Wife 34

Nora E Daur 3

John L Son 1

Florence A Daur 5 months

Mary James Servant 18 General Servant Pontrilas

Mary A Price? Servant 14 Hentland

This is followed by entries for a Pritchards family at the Little Bone Mill and the Fids or Tids at the Bone Mill before entries for Hoarwithy start.

Amy, Margaret and Agnes

The first three daughters, Amy, Tiny and Pattie, as they were known, didn't marry.

Amy went to India with Lady Minto and others as a government nurse. After returning to England she could not settle and left for Tinsin, China.

John Hedley

John, the fourth John, known as Jack, was born in 1895 and married Edith Davis of Tuts Hill(?). She died fairly young. Their son John Roberts of Wyesham and grandson John Richard are the fifth and sixth John Roberts'. Their other son James (of Old Hall / Sandyway ??) and grand-daughter Eunice Carter both married descendants of Rose Powell's brother, Stephen, making the complete family tree very difficult to draw (though I'm sure that's not why they did it). John later married his sister-in-law Mary Jones.

John Hedley Roberts = 1. Edith Davis

| 2. Mary Roberts nee Jones

/--------------------v----'------------------\

| | |

John = Mary Friend Ruth = Stanley Carter James = Rhoda Powell

Charlotte

Charlotte married Stanley Adams and had two children, Robert and Jane.

Charlotte Roberts = Stanley Adams

|

/--------'------\

| |

Robert Jane

Tom Sydney

Tom married Mary Jones. He was killed in an accident in the autumn of 1937. His wife later married Jack Roberts her brother in law.

1. Tom Sydney Roberts = Mary Jones

2. John Hedley Roberts |

/---------------+-----------\

| | |

Jack = Jean Peter Martha = 1. Peter Jackson

2. Jack Colman

(From Martha: My father Tom Roberts died following a farming accident at Hewelsfield Court, St Briavels. I was about 12 months old at the time.

My two brothers John and Peter remember him though. Peter now lives on the Isle of Lewis, Western Isles, Scotland and John our older brother lives in Kenilworth.

Aunty Rose and Uncle Aubrey were very kind to me when I was young. I used to go to stay with them at Fawley Court in the School holidays. On one occasion Aubrey from Ledicot was staying there at the same time.

I did spend some time going to school from St. Briavels where I lived for a while with Aunty Charlotte and Uncle Stanley and also I lived with the Aunties at Day House, Tidenham and went to school from there, until my mum was able to have me back, when she went to house keep for a retired farmer at Much Birch., a Harry Manning and I am still in touch with the Manning family.

I went to Much Birch School before passing to go to Ross Grammar School. We moved to live at Ingestone, Foy when my Mum married Jack Roberts. (Father of James, John and Ruth Roberts, my first cousins. Ruth was just about to marry Stanley Carter and move to live at Ballingham Court. John, her brother, was still living at home and I was bridesmaid when he married Mary Friend, from Aylestone Hill, Hereford.

I was about 12 at the time we went to live at Ingestone and the Festival of Britain was in full swing. I can remember going to it with a group of children from the Grammar School.)

Jessie

Jessie, known as Topsy, stayed at Tidenham and married James Williams who took on Day House at Tidenham.

Jessie = James Williams

|

|

Sarah "Sally" (adopted)

Joseph

Joe married Gean Incol and they lived in Canada and later in Scotland (Edinburgh?). Their children live in Canada.

Joe = Gean Incol

|

/----------------------+---------------\

| | |

June = Craig Sharp Margaret = Andy Sally = Bob Miller

One of the problems of investigating the family history is the number of Roberts' that there are in documents though there are not as many as Powell or Price in south west Herefordshire. As a final note the following list which shows the frequency of different surnames in English and Welsh Birth, Marriage and Death certificates from 30-Jun-1837 to 1-Jul-1838 may be of interest to some.

13429 Jones 4199 Roberts 3148 Walker 2874 Thompson

12637 Smith 3745 Johnson 3134 Lewis 2836 Hill

8743 Williams 3555 Robinson 3112 Green 2771 Harris

6440 Taylor 3399 Wilson 3097 Edwards 2693 Cooper

5589 Davies 3299 Wright 3087 White 2683 Clark

5585 Brown 3227 Hall 3040 Jackson 2661 Davis

5278 Thomas 3180 Hughes 2908 Turner 2502 Harrison

4930 Evans 3177 Wood

I am hoping to add to this history so if you can send me corrections to what I have written or more information, either small items to add to what's here or longer pieces to cover branches that I have only been able to cover briefly, then please let me know and I will add it in.

Andy Roberts c/o or via the Brown

family at

Tresseck Farm, Pamington Farm,

Hoarwithy, Tewkesbury,

Herefordshire Gloucestershire

HR2 6QJ

Version 5 June 2006 – Reviewed format and content – tidied up for family gathering

Corrections / Questions etc

Leslie Johns did not farm at Penalt (Kings Caple) ? (Aunty Mary)

Where did I get this from ?

I had Floyd and Rose's marriage as 2nd of June 1912 - Where did that come from correct other places where 2nd June is written.

Alice died 1920 - is that correct - I wasn't sure who this comment referred to.

Where was Aunty Mary when family moved to Tibberton

Other corrections to note, transfer to other documents, pass on to Martha

Valerie dau of Floyd Hodges not Jack

order of Alf Cole's children

Tom went to the school at Exeter first. Later Gordon at the same time as Wilfred Keene went (which is how he met Mary). Later Douglas went down about 1930/2. (If the school was Mount Radford then Tommy Cooper may have been there at a similar time - he was born between Gordon and Douglas, I think).

Mary and Ruth Carter nee Roberts went to Ross Grammar.

Gordon Roberts d 2 Jun 1997

Wilfred Keene d 3-jun-2002 Worcester Hospital, i 7-jun-2002 Dulas

memorial service Barton Hall Hereford 7-Jun-2002

Mary Keene d Aug-2002, i Dulas, memorial service afterwards at Barton Hall Hereford