Dan Poole: The Comics Decoder Interview / R. W. Watkins
Dan Poole: The Comics Decoder Interview
R. W. Watkins chats with the man who revolutionised the comic-book fan film
Now, if I’m not mistaken, you were shooting videotape fan ‘films’ featuring Spider-Man as early as 1988 – that would have been shortly after your finishing high school, I believe. Were you merely combining two major interests—comics and cinematography—at that point, or did you already have a deeper modus operandi?
Yes, the first video I shot of Spider-Man was in 1988, two years after I graduated high school. I think the two major interests I was combining were comic books and stunt work. I can’t say that cinematography was an interest at the time. Videotape was in its infancy when I was growing up and I never had access to film cameras and that whole process. I wish I had had a camera while me and a buddy climbed every tree, school and business rooftop in the area growing up.
I don’t know if it’s worth mentioning that I was part of The Children’s Theater Association in Baltimore between the ages of 10 and 13, taking acting lessons and doing improv. Also, I was always drawing something when I could. A book I got around that same time period was How To Draw Comics The Marvel Way, in which they showed the stages of building a dynamic hero sketch. Their guide of “Good, Better, MARVEL” remains a reference in my life in many areas.
When I was around 9, I found out my dad had a modest comic-book collection of mostly DC stuff. I remember checking out his Flash and Green Lantern comics and being an instant superhero comics fan. But being a young, energetic kid into gymnastics/stunts, and being a complete smart ass, I quickly found Spidey. That’s about when I saw those Spidey TV movies with Nicholas Hammond, and I can vividly recall my disappointment. “That’s not Spider-man,” I thought. I felt personally offended, actually! THAT’S the best they can do?? They were hard to watch even as a pre-teen.
In high school everyone associated me with Spider-Man, which was a combination of my energy and antics, my drawings during class, and perhaps because of a rubber stamp that placed a two-inch Romita-like tattoo in every hallway, desk and locker in the building. It kind of got out of hand and I was the alleged culprit. Also, while most students were looking into colleges, I told my guidance counselor that I wanted to be a stuntman. When a classmate held a big Halloween party in 1986, my mom helped me put together a pretty authentic-looking costume. It was her idea of using car window tinting material for the eyelets. I still regard that as brilliant.
Help me remember – Was there already much talk and speculation regarding a Spider-Man motion picture in the late ’80s?
Very shortly after that party I grabbed a large paperback book called The Amazing Spider-Man, with a forward by Stan Lee. In it, he mentioned plans for a Spider-Man movie. Immediately, I wanted to be part of it. I am a born stuntman. I was really into the Wall Crawler. This seemed like destiny. I HAD to get onto that project. But, how in the world does an 18-year old in Baltimore with zero film experience and no money even begin to find a way into a Hollywood movie? A demo tape? YES! A DEMO TAPE!!! I had the costume, a friend had a camcorder – all I had to do was put some dynamic Spidey action on screen and they’d have to give me a call! As completely goofy and naive as it sounds, it was the only hope I felt like I had. I called on my best friends to assist, and the first stop was a local playground where Eric Supensky (FX makeup, Goblin mask, J. Jonah Jameson) shot the first tests of me climbing and falling all over the place. Then I started dreaming up action sequences and drawing story boards. My buddy Matt put on a ninja outfit (with a real sword) and we climbed onto a local rooftop and began shooting action sequences. It was as crude as you can imagine and nothing felt worthy of sending to anyone in Hollywood, but we were learning and refining each time we went out.
My friends and I put a lot of time and energy into several Spidey video attempts for a few years. There was the ninja stuff with no real story, a campy 20-minute video called Spider-Dan, another 20-minute video with gangsters entitled Garboozi’s Revenge, a 50-minute adventure featuring The Kingpin and Bullseye called The Quick & The Dead, several incarnations of some cool Mysterio footage we shot in a warehouse, and various pieces of action. It all looked great on paper and we did our best to bring it to life, but I knew none of it was going to get me a job in Hollywood. But I went out there anyway, storming the production companies and getting a few minutes with some suits.
Sometime around 1990 I got into the offices of 21st Century Films in L.A. who had just gotten the film rights to Spider-Man from Cannon. I was shown the costume and web shooters they were going to use for the big movie. It was a pretty cool moment. The folks showing me the props were kind but somewhat condescending, and I certainly wasn’t asked for my W2 information, so the writing was on the wall. It said, “EXIT”. That project never happened anyway. Instead they went to Yugoslavia and shot Captain America with Reb Brown.
Back in Baltimore, I tapped out. I didn’t see a reason to continue. Plus, there was no news on the Spidey movie. I continued with my life, working in the mailroom of The National Aquarium in Baltimore, collecting 14 titles a month and making silly videos with my friends. I will say that once I did get a camcorder in my hand, it definitely sparked a great interest in making movies.
Now, I understand The Green Goblin’s Last Stand was truly shot with the intention of grabbing people’s attention in high places. Exactly whom, though? The Hollywood producers? The suits at Marvel? Some combination? Did you have any ‘tips’ or insider information at this point?
Yes, as from the very begging, every Spidey video I conceived and produced was for the sole purpose of landing a job. All I ever wanted was an opportunity to work on the set of a Hollywood Spider-Man movie. As I learned of the various stages of production and the battle over the theatrical rights, I would plan a new video whenever someone new entered the picture. After several videos, several trips to Los Angeles and several cold calls to the people involved, I stopped—just as the momentum of the major motion picture did.
Then one morning I saw Stan Lee on TV where he announced that James Cameron would be directing the upcoming Spider-Man film. Instantly, I knew I had to create something else. I clearly remember thinking, “I haven’t done my best work yet”. My imagination was flooded with ideas of villains and costumes and practical effects. There was a fierce determination to find a way to impress the creator of The Terminator.
As for insider intel, I had made several phone calls to Stan Lee’s office on Sepulveda Boulevard and made acquaintances with his assistant, Pam Dovale. She was always very civil to me and offered what information she could.
On a side note, during the production of GGLS, I stopped by a convention in Baltimore that I heard Stan Lee was attending. I went to the Marvel booth, where I saw a guy in a Spidey suit taking pictures with fans. Soon thereafter when I saw him in street clothes and spoke with him, he was visibly shocked that I knew it was him. I told him that I noticed the impressions in his arms where the skin-tight suit left seam lines. When I told him why I knew that, he agreed to introduce me to Stan. SO, as Stan was leaving the building, I walked with him and his agent (I think) back toward his hotel. I told him that I was making a Spider-Man video with The Green Goblin and pumpkin bombs and a bat glider and web swinging – all to make him proud. What I meant was that I wanted him to be proud of his character on screen for once, but also that I wanted his approval. He exchanged looks of confusion and amazement with his agent and then said to me, “Son, you’ve already made me proud!” I still have the letter he sent to me after watching the finished video.
Exactly when was The Goblin’s Last Stand shot, by the way? I’ve always heard that it was in 1991-92, but as I’ve noted in that article of mine, it has a decidedly ’80s feel about it—right down to Howard Jones’s ‘Equality’ on the soundtrack. I mean, no offence, but I didn’t know too many senior-high and college-age people who still looked and dressed like the young men and women in your movie by 1992! True, I was probably ‘overly immersed’ in grunge and goth culture by my early twenties. Still, viewed objectively nearly a quarter of a century later, it does strike one as a product of the ’80s at first glance. Then again, probably the same can be said of Twin Peaks, come to think of it!
No offense taken—I own it! Yeah, you may have been in the progressive scene then! I feel like decades dovetail with one another and it takes a couple years for the new looks to take hold. I definitely shot that between September 1991 and December 1992, so that was the style in my neighborhood at the time! As for the music, what can I say? I was a fan of 80’s music and that one seemed to fit the mood I wanted!
Do you regret having shot it on videotape, or is that a no-brainer? Have you ever toyed with the idea of transferring it to 35 MM film?
I was lucky to have ANYTHING to visually record anything on! I was THRILLED to have a video camera!!! It’s hard for anyone these days to imagine life without a high-def video recorder in their pocket, but VHS was the consumer media of that time and cameras were just starting to become available. Also, I didn’t have any money! As for film, I never developed a desire to work with it. Seemed like way too much work for me! When shooting GGLS, there were offers from film friends to help and there were conversations about the quality. I always thought that if the visual story being told was compelling, it wouldn’t matter what the recording medium was.
Why dig out a (nearly) two-decades-old plot like ‘The Night Gwen Stacy Died / The Green Goblin’s Last Stand’? Did you have inside knowledge that the producers were leaning that way themselves (judging from the fact that that story arc served as the partial basis for the first Spider-Man flick a decade later) or was it simply gut instinct?
The plan to impress James Cameron consisted of compiling as many action sequences as I could with as many villains and iconic fight scenes as I could manage. The goal was to put together a four-minute reel. We had done some Mysterio stuff and it was time to get into the heavy hitters. The Goblin and Venom were the focus. Amongst my small squad of dedicated friends and fellow artists was Eric Supensky. He was the first phone call I made after my epiphany. We worked together for months on bringing those two masks to life. In that time I realized that the fight we needed to see with Gobby in it was his final one. (Well, his first final one, anyway….)
As I got into “casting”—or rather, “asking people to be in my video”—I began to plot more and more to shoot about their episode. As the scope of that task grew, everything else seemed to fall away until I focused only on the death of Gwen Stacey and ‘The Green Goblin’s Last Stand’.
It remains one of the most exciting and satisfying things I’ve ever done in my life. Seeing the Green Goblin holding Gwen Stacey’s head over the edge of a building through the viewfinder of a camera—and knowing I was responsible for arranging it all—was an incredible feeling of accomplishment.
Considering how it’s “one of the most exciting and satisfying things” you've ever done, and is undoubtedly your biggest claim to fame, let me focus a little more on The Green Goblin’s Last Stand. Speaking of the movie’s ’80s feel and any perceived anachronisms, did you have any reservations about mixing up a story from the Kane/Romita Amazing Spider-Man era with the look of the McFarlane era? I’m thinking about things like your exaggerated coif of hair, Alison Adams’s big curly mane, and the violent gang of street thugs (like something out of a Michael Jackson video) in the abandoned warehouse. Have you ever received any flak for that?
I’m not sure I’ve taken much flak for not doing a 70’s period piece, but I’ve taken a few metric tons of flak for the wild high hairdos! Since I was such a fan of McFarlane, I was determined to bring his style to the screen just to see it move and breathe. Many fans have acknowledged the McFarlane look, for better or worse.
On a similar note, did you have any reservations about using a pony-tailed 23-year-old Jim Kinstle in the middle-aged Norman Osborn role?
It’s interesting to look back and see Jimi’s young face now, but at the time I thought he looked old enough to make it work. The ponytail was a KILLER, though. I was not a fan at all of that look for Mr. Osborn—but he [Kinstle] needed long hair for a theater role, and my little ol’ no-pay video project was lucky and thrilled to get the guy to participate at all. I didn’t know anyone else at the time that I wanted for that role.
And then there’s Alison Adams as Gwen Stacy... Compared to the hip-yet-demure Gwen of the classic comics, Adams comes across as... how can I put it... a ‘big healthy girly’...? I mean, I’m reminded of performers like Carolyn Monroe and Angela Summers in the John Stagliano porno flicks of that period. (Although—I must admit—rewatching the movie prior to starting this interview, Adams did not come across as buxom and busty in 2016 reality as I’d been remembering her in my imagination.)
It may be hard to imagine a time when video productions weren’t quite as prolific as in 2016, but in 1992, folks weren’t as familiar with being asked to be on camera. I was in my early twenties, and I had a tough time getting commitments from people I knew to come out and help me, and casting was especially difficult. I told myself that I was going to find an absolute knockout to play Gwen and that I wouldn’t stop searching until I could convince the right local hottie to bring that iconic character to life. And then I was introduced to Allison, told her what I was trying to do, she said she’d love to do it, and I said, “Right! You’re in!” So, after all that, the reason she did the part was because she was the first blonde to say yes.
Like a lot of people, I’ve always considered your Spider-Man and Goblin costumes impressive in their consistence with the costumes in the classic comics. I’m particularly impressed with the Goblin’s mask (especially compared to that metallic travesty from the official 2002 Spider-Man film) and Spider-Man’s one-way-mirror eye lenses. Could you talk a little about the vision and ingenuity that went into such costumes, given the shoestring budget? Apparently, according to the documentary, the Goblin mask started with a load of stolen clay. This sounds interesting!
The Spidey costume was a labor of love for a Halloween party. My mom had some sewing skills and she and I collaborated to piece it together, but neither one of us knew where to begin! I always remember her saying, “I don’t know how to make gloves!” and me replying, “Why can’t we just trace my hand and forearm for a pattern and sew two halves together?” And she thought about it and said, “Yeah, I guess we could do that…” – and it worked! When I got stumped on the eyelets, she was the one that came home with a roll of car-window tinting from the auto store – and they were awesome. I insisted the costume be as authentic as possible, and while it’s obviously not perfect, I can tell you that it’s in the actual [individual] parts they laid out in the comics (mask, top, tights, boots, gloves and belt), and not a lame-ass onesie.
Now, when it comes to the Green Goblin mask, that’s all Eric Supensky. Artist, actor, FX makeup artist and all-around creative force, he knew how professional masks like that were made, but he’d never made one. So, onto perhaps the most intensive new venture of the production—once again, with very little money. We had many conversations while looking at comic books about what we wanted it to look like and how it needed to behave. As with the Spidey suit, I just wanted it to look like how it did in the books and cartoons.
E [Supensky] spent much of his youth around a local college where his dad was an art professor, so he knew how to acquire some resources for our project (yes, clay!). I have no idea how many hours he put into sculpting that mask, but he was also doing a Venom mask concurrently (that we never finished completely). For the Goblin, he made a mold of Jimi’s face first so he could work from those dimensions. The face was obviously the most important, and then he did the ears separately and then the back. Layers and layers of latex and gauze (I think), and then it was time to paint it. I’m not sure which took longer!
There was so much time spent in R&D with the making of that mask—the process, the materials, the function, the size, the hue, etc.—that everything from the neck down seems like we just threw it together out of my mom’s closet by comparison! In actuality, a local theater costumer friend helped us put it together. These days, texture in costumes is everywhere, but there was virtually zero in the early 90’s. However, we tripped across a bit of green stretchy fabric that had some great texture—almost scaly—that we used for the Goblin costume. The bad news was that there was not enough available to create a full body suit, so the green part of the Green Goblin costume was hilariously short. Under the purple tunic, it was basically a long-sleeve half shirt and two tubes for leggings.
We had a total of six different people play the Green Goblin for stunt days throughout the run of the shoot. Every single person that put on the costume said, “Are you serious? Is this it??”
How about the picture’s length – Ever regret not making it a little longer? Have you ever considered incorporating some of the cutting-room-floor outtakes and/or your earlier short Spidey flicks in order to blow it up to a more conventional 110 or 120 minutes? I mean, don’t you think it cries out for J. Jonah Jameson?
Now that you mention it, YES – it does scream for some JJJ! And Eric Supensky was always my resident surly Bugle Editor! As for the running time, I’ve never thought about making it longer. In fact, it was the second video I intended to make 20 minutes that wound up being 50! Over the years I’ve considered what it would look like with all the resources I have now, but there’s never been a compelling reason to redo anything. But again, yes! If I ever do another Spidey video, JJJ will absolutely be part of it!
In 1992, grunge rock was happening, ‘indie’ and alternative comics were reaching a wider and wider audience, the plaid-flannel Gen-X thing was getting recognised in the mainstream media, etc., etc. Did it ever occur to you at the time that you were also part of this whole DIY ethic that was becoming synonymous with the creative side of our generation?
Not once. My only concern was finding a way to get a job on the Hollywood Spider-Man movie. No internet, no social media, and no way to predict any awareness outside of my neighborhood of what I was doing. I sincerely appreciate the association, though. Thank you!
Sometime in the early ’90s, when his wife came out with Hearts of Darkness – the behind-the-scenes footage from the making of Apocalypse Now, Francis Ford Coppola was heard to utter something about the very real possibility of some little girl from Ohio with a camcorder now being able to shoot the next blockbuster. Considering this, and things like The Blair Witch Project and everything that’s been happening on YouTube and its imitators over the past decade, have you ever stopped and thought something like, “Jeez, I guess I was ahead of my time!”
YES, INDEEDY!!! So many times!! UGH! When I think about what we had to work with versus what’s become available . . . UGH! Yeah, I’ve thought about it. Quite regularly I think about what a 22-year-old Dan Poole’s YouTube channel would look like. OH, WELL!!!
Now let’s focus for a bit on the movies and videos you’ve worked on in the years since The Green Goblin’s Last Stand—and yes, I’ll be coming to The Photon Effect in a minute. Can you first give us a brief overview of the shorter and more obscure stuff? The Wolverine / Last Call short from (I believe) 2004 demonstrates that you’ve never totally escaped the Marvel Universe, I notice.
There’s not a bunch, but first came the documentary. As the Internet age dawned and we crashed the first server to host the GGLS, I got inundated with emails asking me many of the same questions. I thought making a video explaining the who, what, why, where and how might be pretty cool. I was also hoping to be able to market the doc, which never materialized in a significant volume.
In 2003, Sandy Collora blew up the Internet with Batman: Dead End, and it stirred an interest in me to see what I could do. I already had a couple of ideas, but was in love with this really cool (in my opinion!) Avengers trailer I had written. I was going to present it as a chapter on a DVD of a full length movie. I was hell-bent on pulling off this short video with Captain America, Iron Man and Thor, but a friend convinced me to switch gears and do my more modest Wolverine short instead.
And no, nothing ever excites me as much as my Marvel heroes. When I was reading 14 Marvel titles every month in the 90’s, I played classical music lightly in the background. Every book was a storyboard to me. Every panel jumped to life. All I ever did was imagine everything in life size action. I had dreams of action scenes between Spidey and The Green Goblin.
I’ve read or heard somewhere that you had more or less turned against so-called fan films and comics-based indie work by the end of the ’90s or early 2000s, so I’m wondering what suddenly possessed you to turn around and make a feature-length superhero flick completely of your own design at the end of the last decade. The Photon Effect was shot primarily on digital, and its effects were largely of computer origin, correct? Given such facts, in my mind it seems to fall between categories on several different levels.
It’s not that I turned against fan films. I have always had a very healthy respect for anyone getting anything done on their own. With that in mind, I never conceived of anyone putting in all that effort just for fun. My Spidey videos always had the very specific purpose of trying to get me a job. When I spoke to fan filmmakers, I cautioned them about potentially wasting their time. Harsh-sounding perhaps, I merely wanted to encourage them to put energy into something original so that they could benefit greater. I agreed that fan films were a great calling card, but filmmakers stood a better chance of success owning and controlling their creations.
Which brings me to the origin of Photon. Not long after Last Call, I received an invitation to participate in a new TV show called Who Wants To Be A Superhero? My assignment was to create my own superhero complete with an alter ego and back story. I had so much fun with the process that I thought I’d rather keep my guy and shoot something myself. It took quite a while to get a solid shooting script and put it all together.
Seven or eight years on, any regrets?
Yes, I absolutely have some regrets about doing The Photon Effect. Many, actually. But, it’s done. It exists. It may not be as good as the script, but I know it’s a great cornerstone to build upon. Photon will run again!
Now let’s get back to the comics that inspired you in the first place, all those years ago... What writers and artists were your favourites and influenced you the most?
It would probably start with John Romita, Sr. because his work was probably the first Spidey stuff I’d ever seen. However, I don’t feel like I paid attention to every artist and writer specifically in the beginning, I just started grabbing all the Spidey titles I could. As the Marvel world opened up to me via my local comic-book shop, I began picking up other cool-looking covers until I was up to 14 titles a month of various heroes. But the ones that blew me away and fueled me with inspiration were Walt Simonson and Todd McFarlane. Those are the two artists I could not get enough of. I would buy anything they drew. The only writers I ever realized I was a fan of were Louise Simonson and Peter David, probably because they were so prolific for so long.
Wait – Can I include Sergio Aragones from MAD Magazine?! Him and Al Jaffee influenced me in other ways, like story/joke-telling with maximum ink economy. Who didn’t tear through their copy every month searching for those hilarious doodles along the spine??
Also, in 4th grade I sat next to a guy named Ashley Harvin who drew the coolest stick figure scenes ever. He had SWAT teams advancing on buildings and underwater stuff with scuba divers battling James Bond style. I immediately tried to do the same. Sometimes I still do!
Have you ever drawn any full strips/stories of your own? Do you still find the time to draw today?
What a great question! I’ve always had a love for drawing and been pretty good at drawing what I physically see. When I was 12, I had my nose in the book How To Draw Comics The Marvel Way, and I learned how to create pretty cool human figures. However, I’m not the quickest draw in the land. It takes some time for me to draw something I’m happy with. So, every time I get the itch to try doing a collection of panels, I run out of steam after the first few! I find myself rushing more and more and the artwork starts looking worse and worse. So . . . no. The closest I’ve done to full stories has been storyboarding scenes for movies I’ve written. And yep – they look pretty cool for the first few panels, and then they suck!
Poole’s personalised ‘Spidey folder’ from bygone years
What’s your take on contemporary comics? Is there anything out there today—whether mainstream or alternative—that’s still worth reading? What do you make of the artwork and the role that computers now play in it? Do you feel as I do, that virtually everything looks generically alike nowadays?
I wish I had an informed opinion to offer, but I can’t remember the last time I bought one. I have wanted to several times over the years, but I’ve been afraid of feeling too far out of the loop. Plus every time I’ve picked one up in the past decade the sticker shock nearly knocked me down! Holy shit, are they crazy expensive!!!
WAIT A TICK! Yes! In 2015, I was introduced to a book called Atomic Robo. I thought that book was a blast! Cool art, fun concept. I liked it so much I did run to my local shop to grab a copy of the graphic novel collection! Still haven’t finished it, though…
Funny, after reading your article [‘Why Do They Still Call Them Comic Books?’ – Issue 6, Fall 2014] and seeing the Thor excerpt, I do see what you’re referring to, and that is not a look I would be interested in at all. Looks like a video game. (I’d play it, though!)
Fantagraphics publisher Gary Groth recently made the following observation while attending the (increasingly over-the-top) San Diego Comic Con: “The comics they make movies out of—Deadpool, Batman, Superman—don’t sell. I think the companies that publish them, Marvel and DC, only publish them in order to keep the franchise going. You can’t cite any other medium that has that place in popular culture. You make a movie out of a novel, I mean, people still read the novel.” Care to comment?
Sounds about right. Definitely a pretty bizarre business model, huh? Again, I’m so far removed from the comics world that I can’t even cite who I see reading what. I honestly don’t know if I know anyone that buys or reads any comics anymore. I feel so incredibly uninformed in the world of comic books these days that I can’t even offer an opinion.
You have a background in comics and sketching and now considerable experience in hands-on movie-making. Have you ever considered meeting those two mediums at the halfway point and trying your hand at animation?
I honestly can’t say that I have—until now!
How about the big-budget Hollywood superhero films that you aspired to break into decades ago and that are so popular today—Do you think they’ve gone overboard with the CGI effects? Have believability and sincerity taken a back seat to technology?
Well, I say it’s case by case. When it comes to the Spider-man movies, HELL YES! I am personally not a fan of anything Sony has done with the character. But I’m a big, big fan of what Marvel has done in bringing their heroes to the screen. Do they go off the rails every other film? Yeah, kind of. But I give them a pass because of how immaculately they brought everyone off the page, beginning with—and most notably—Iron Man. Hell, even as quirky as Age Of Ultron was, I got absolutely giddy as I watched them bring Vision to life. In my opinion, at the end of the day, these movies are what they are supposed to be: fun!
Finally, what are you up to creatively these days? I understand there’s a Photon Effect sequel in the making. How’s that coming along? And what’s next after that?
Well, not a sequel per se, but I am definitely gathering what I need to produce a few short films with Photon. My goal is to create a few seasons worth of Photon adventures for a streaming service.
Well, good luck with that! And cheers for your time and cooperation, Dan! I truly appreciate it!
My pleasure! So sorry for the crazy delay in replying. I SUCK!!!
