kevnjoy

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Locks <Steve Locks>

To: Kev'n'Joy

Sent: 21 August 1999 01:05

Subject: Re:

<< Dear Sir, >>

Hi Kevin (please call me Steve!)

Thanks for your feedback. It's always appreciated, whether appreciative or

critical. In the spirit of hoping for an interesting and profitable

exchange for both of us I'll make some comments on what you wrote to me.

<< I have read your web site, >>

Not all of it, I take it?!

<< and I was quite amazed that in your quest to disprove the existence of

God, you went to such lengths to convince people that you have been (and I

quote) 'reconverted'. >>

Actually, that's not my agenda. My intention is

not to evangelise, but to provide a resource for those in a similar

situation and notes to refer people to when on debating lists (which

my wife says I can't do anymore 'cos it takes too much time!) Also I feel

that the information of what really happens to people must be made

available or otherwise it seems like censorship. I really don't want to

stay quiet for fear of offending someone who believes what I think are

untruths. They don't have to read it but they may stumble across it -

that can't be helped on the Internet. I have provided an invitation for

reciprocal links to sites that disagree with mine for fairness, but

nobody wants to so far, it's their choice - I certainly haven't forced

myself on anyone by putting my site on a Christian Webring for example!

I think the case against Christianity is stronger than the more

metaphysical case for atheism. I have not consciously "argued for atheism"

as you claim but I am critical of Christianity which I think can be

demonstrated to be false as is discussed by so many ex-professional

churchmen whose deconversion stories can be found via my site. I am

not arguing it myself particularly anyway, as it is already well covered

on the Internet. Rather I am mostly just presenting case histories with

a little of what I personally found. Things certainly can get out of hand

when discussing religion, so I have mostly steered towards providing

a resource for testimonies and have a link to the Ontario Society on

religious tolerance on my site at the top of the main links.

You said <<you went to such lengths to convince people that you have been

(and I quote) 'reconverted'. >> If you do a text search for "reconverted"

on my site you will find that I don't use that word. I do use "deconvert"

quite a bit, which seems apt for leaving Christianity, as the experience

is sometimes very powerful and is described like a "conversion experience"

or "awakening" by those many of those who have left Christianity.

<< Your thoughts about Hell are indeed relevant, and some

people go through Hell, during their time on earth. Some people suffer so

much, they no longer see the reason to carry on with life. Some people go

to church because it is fashionable, because it is something they have

always done, and so they just go. Living in this world is something all

of us have to put up with and a lot of people carry on perfectly okay

without the divine in their lives. >>

I agree with what you say here, apart from the claim that Christians have

the divine in their lives of course, which I would claim is a human thing,

as I discovered from my researches that the Christian experience was

so similar to the experience of those of other religions and none.

<< I will not try to convert you, because you are so well read, >>

So why did you write to me? I take it you wish to convince me of

something, or is there another reason?

<< and wisdom and understanding are something which you cherish and that

has become your guide to help you through life. >>

That's very kind of you, and I hope that's the same for all of us. I have

tried to make my site fairly free of scornful material, although I think

it's pretty impossible not to offend somebody sometime somewhere!

<< I know that one day you will indeed find the peace that passeth all

understanding. >>

Well, from my experience of those deconverts I've talked to on the net,

they have all been surprised at a much richer life once they have left

Christianity, apart from the problems that being an infidel amongst

believers subsequently brings. Most of us had a rich Christian experience

that we believed to be a good, loving thing at the time. It comes as

pretty much a shock to most of us to make the kind of discoveries that

make Christianity untenable for us any longer. Nevertheless, almost all

ex-Christians describe the enriching experience that leaving Christianity

brings. I have already written about this at

http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/slocks.htm and there are some quotes at

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/quotes.html as well as more

material throughout my site and via the links.

I only know of one person who had a very bad inner-personal time after

deconversion. He was training to be a professional apologist and (in his

own words)

<Begin Quote>

I had a rather abrupt intellectual crisis my last year of college. I was

planning to be a professional apologist and was taking three courses my

fall quarter relating to biblical studies. I thought the best way to

defeat the Jesus Seminar and the source critics of the Pentateuch was to

know their arguments as well as they did. Ironically, I was won over to

the historical-critical method. Given my background in comparative

religions and my training as an apologist who liked to ask difficult

questions, my view of the Bible and the religious communities that

produced it quickly changed. More and more, I saw the Bible as a mere

cultural production, a far cry from being the very breathed-out word of

God To say the least, it was the most traumatic experience of my life.

The worldview that I had spent a decade meticulously constructing was

shattered forever. I felt as if I was going insane. [....] I'm still very

much haunted by the ghost of my indoctrination and I don't think that

it's leaving anytime soon. I have so much to deal with and have just

barely gotten the confidence to go back out into the public and start

looking for a job. I daily fear helplessly falling into a state of

insanity. It's amazing how a deconversion experience can so affect the

self-confidence of a once "all-knowing" apologist.

<End Quote>

So it can be traumatic, but he was rather the exception

from those deconverts I've talked to. Most found it liberating, whereas

Matt (I talked to him on a mailing list and by private email) went on to

complain about how profoundly he doubted his own intellectual

abilities for having been so seriously duped for so long. It is this that

really depressed him and sent him searching for various councillors,

sympathetic correspondents etc. Indeed it makes a very moot

point that anyone does find deconversion painful given the assumption

that Christianity is about "love." I think if love was primal then

deconversion should be a lot less painful because if Christianity

is false then it is patent that we were having loving feelings without

any god helping us, and so there should be no trouble caused by

deconversion - it should be a liberation to be attuned to the real world,

increasing our chances of doing real good if we react to the world as

it is rather than a false model. This liberation is the norm in the vast

majority of cases I have collected and in all cases on long term follow

up. However, I think some Christians are more in love with

Christianity than love and because of this they are very alarmed at the

idea that Christianity might be false. Really nobody should be afraid of

research. An example of an unafraid Christian, demonstrating the ease

of deconversion in those who primarily value love is the following:

<Begin Quote - from the ex-Christian archives>

On the other hand, my friend's grandmother had been a Christian for over

65 years, and we converted her IN ONE EVENING. A record to be sure,

but it was so easy because she valued her own judgement over the

comforts of the Christian religion. With her, it all started when Troy

(my friend, her grandson) mentioned something about God ordering

the death of babies. She said "there ain't no such thing like that in the

bible." We showed her, and she was shocked. To her, morality is

more important than faith, and after 65 years of Christianity, she

said "Why I had no idea, I can't believe I have been worshipping this

sh*t all my life." [....] The quote was 1 Samuel 15:2-3

<End Quote>

Even within the Christian tradition there is the example of St. Theresa

of Lisieux who pretty much became an atheist as she was dying and claimed

a far purer love when "hope of heaven" etc. was gone. Some Christian

mystics described this as "God finally being born in her." Away the

trappings of dogma! St. Thomas Aquinas also described his Summa

Theologica "as straw" after a religious experience. So if somebody's

Christianity is really about love then that Christian should welcome free

enquiry. If it is about ego and holding onto dogmas and certain social

circles then they will get upset. There you go - falsifiable theories!

<< I know that one day you will indeed find the peace that passeth all

understanding. >>

How do you know this? How do you know that I don't have as much or more

peace than you do? Something so important should be available to seekers.

See http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html

I hope this is of interest. If you wish to dialogue then I am willing, and

if not then I won't take offence.

Steve

----- Original Message -----

From: Kev'n'Joy

To: Steve Locks <Steve Locks>

Cc: <Steve Locks>

Sent: 27 August 1999 16:25

Subject: Re: Your E-mail

Dear Steve,

I can't convert you and I would not try, people can't convert people it's

only possible through God. You didn't offend me in the slightest and I hope

I did not upset you, I am sure you have had countless letters for and

against the existence of God. The E-mail system and the web site is a

novelty for me at the moment and I honestly thought, the E-mail hadn't gone,

I must have pressed the wrong button. Anyway I didn't put my name in

because I was playing around learning the E-mail system. My Husband was a

bit confused as he does not believe in God, but I do as you may have

gathered, your quite right I did not read the web site properly, I was in

fact just learning how to use it, ( you know that phrase 'Don't touch that

button') well I did.

So now I have explained myself, I shall respond to your letter, I thought I

would start with your quote about that dear grandmother who was shown the

passage of scripture 1 Samuel 15

verses 2 -3

1 Samuel Chapter 15 verses 2 - 3

The sentence of condemnation against the Amalekites had gone forth long

before, #Ex 17.14; De 25,17A , but they had been spared till they filled up

the measure of their sins. I am sure our righteous Lord does not injustice

to any. The remembering the kindness of the ancestors of the Kenites, in

favour to them, at the time God was punishing the injuries done by the

ancestors of the Amalekites, tended to clear the righeousness of God in this

dispnesation. It is dangerous to be found in the company of God's enemies,

and it our duty and interest to come out from among them, lest we share in

their sins and plauges, #Re 18:4, As the commandment had been express, and a

test of Saul's obedience, his conduct evidently was the effect of a proud,

rebellious spirit. He destroyed only the refuse, which was good for little.

That which was now destroyed was sacrificed to the justice of God.

Repentance in God is not a change of mind, as it is in us, but a change of

method. The change was in Saul: " He turned back from following me" Hereby

he made God his enemy.

In a word the Amalekites were like the Nazi's during the war years, this was

God protecting his people.

If this passage caused an old lady to lose her faith, one wonders how strong

her faith was, and if she had ever read the bible and studied it, especially

if she had not come across it before, was she a Christian in the first

place?, a Christian follows the teaching of Christ and this involves daily

bible reading, study and prayer.

You also said that you have only heard of one person who had a bad time

after deconversion, my driving instructor after reading a book, called The

Holy Blood and the Holy Grail' by Michael Baignet, Richard Leigh and Henry

Lincoln, which I have also read and studied closely. This man was very

confused after his deconverstion experience and felt he had been fed a lie

by the church and believed this book, rather than the beautiful words of

Christ. We spoke for hours on the subject and he was so upset and confused,

he eventually left Christianity and became a Buddhist, (Perhaps it was

really my driving that did it, I do not know), but he did confess that

although he was a Christian, he had never had a personal encounter with

Jesus Christ, very few people actually do.

I

I hope I you enjoyed this letter, and I am sorry about the misunderstanding.

Yours sincerely

Joy

PS Here's a good puzzler from my brother, him and me were atheists for a

long, but this is a good question ' If Adam and Eve did not have the

knowledge of good and evil, before they took the fruit of the tree, how did

they know it was wrong to pick the fruit?

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Locks <Steve Locks>

To: Kev'n'Joy

Sent: 27 August 1999 22:37

Subject: Re: Your E-mail

Hi Joy,

Thanks for taking the time to continue the correspondence.

<< I can't convert you and I would not try, people can't convert people

it's only possible through God. >>

On my story you may notice that when I was still a Christian and decided

to look into material that was critical of Christianity I asked God for

guidance and "put myself into his hands." Many times I prayed during those

difficult times for guidance, "your will be done" etc. and a deeper faith.

Yet I came to the conclusion that Christianity was false. If someone was

to tell you that you can only achieve Krishna Consciousness by the divine

guidance of Hare Krishna and by reciting his holy name numerous times a

day would you have any reason to believe them? If not then your statement

is special pleading which is a very common fallacy in Christian

apologetics.

<< You didn't offend me in the slightest and I hope

I did not upset you, >>

Not at all, don't worry about that. I intend to be to the point in any

discussions as I think being "mealy mouthed" won't get us anywhere, so I

hope we can continue in good part. It was very heartening that on the

"xtianity" debate list, it was rare to see any "flaming" during my time on

that list. I am always glad of any contributions, if not more so of

contributions from Christians as there is much for us to discuss.

Some things used to upset me in the old days but as you say :

<< I am sure you have had countless letters for and

against the existence of God. >>

so I'm a bit battle hardened by now! Also please note, as I said before

that my main thrust is against Christianity and not against theism in

general. Although I would class myself as an "atheist" I have no

particular argument with theists in general. However Christianity I do see

as very misleading and potentially highly damaging depending on how

seriously and centrally Christians take it and especially the more

fundamentalist the beliefs.

<< The E-mail system and the web site is a

novelty for me at the moment and I honestly thought, the E-mail hadn't

gone, I must have pressed the wrong button. Anyway I didn't put my name

in because I was playing around learning the E-mail system. My Husband

was a bit confused as he does not believe in God, but I do as you may have

gathered, your quite right I did not read the web site properly, I was in

fact just learning how to use it, ( you know that phrase 'Don't touch

that button') well I did. >>

No problem. I have seen a few cases of mistaken gender by email and it is

good evidence for the equality of the sexes that people often make this

mistake! It is interesting to see that you and your husband have different

beliefs. How do you approach this? How do you view your husband? Does it

cause any friction etc? This was often discussed on the ex-Christian

mailing list from the other point of view and it would be interesting to

hear what you have to say on this. If it's too personal to discuss then

don't answer!

<snip>

<< 1 Samuel Chapter 15 verses 2 - 3

The sentence of condemnation against the Amalekites had gone forth long

before, #Ex 17.14; De 25,17A , but they had been spared till they filled

up the measure of their sins. I am sure our righteous Lord does not

injustice to any. >>

<snip>

<< In a word the Amalekites were like the Nazi's during the war years,

this was God protecting his people. >>

You might want to read what I wrote to another correspondent recently at

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/feedback/henry_quon.html

Whatever the character of the Amalekites it is a fact that in this passage

and many others the bible portrays God as ordering the massacre of

infants, babies and animals. I sincerely hope you are not trying to

justify this. If you are then please note my comments about abusive

relationships and the Stockholm syndrome at the URL above. Particularly

notice this paragraph about excusing God for atrocities in the bible and

the "problem of evil"

<Quote>

"I have a big problem with this in that it strikes me as a very unhealthy

relationship with ones god. If you read further in my site you will see I

have included comments about the similarity of this with an abused wife's

love for her husband and the Stockholm syndrome starting at

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html#example "

<End Quote>

The fact is that the baby killing passages were written by an ethnocentric

tribe of Hebrew warriors who rallied together using their battle god to

justify genocide of their enemies. Christians then attempted to sweeten

this up into something which must actually be a good thing

"because" God is good. What would constitute the actions of a devil?

Nowhere in the bible does satan commit the slaughter attributed to Yahweh!

It is all too absurd for words when one finally dares to question whether

this ripping open of pregnant women etc. really is good! I'm glad to say I

was unaware of these passages until I started to deconvert, and most of

the worst ones I did not know about until I went on-line. Nevertheless,

many Christians are aware of them and try to rationalise them. I recently

heard a radio program where they were discussing the bears that were sent

to rip 42 children apart because the children had called the prophet

Elisha a "baldy-head." (2 Kings Chapter 2)

2:23. And he went up from thence to Bethel: and as he was going up by

the way, little boys came out of the city and mocked him, saying: Go

up, thou bald head, go up, thou bald head.

2:24. And looking back, he saw them, and cursed them in the name of the

Lord: and there came forth two bears out of the forest, and tore of

them, two and forty boys.

In the radio program the Christians said (brace yourself!) "this shows how

important it is not to mock prophets of the Lord!"

<< If this passage caused an old lady to lose her faith, one wonders how

strong her faith was, and if she had ever read the bible and studied it,

especially if she had not come across it before, was she a Christian in

the first place?, a Christian follows the teaching of Christ and this

involves daily bible reading, study and prayer. >>

You may be surprised at how many Christians have not read the bible all

the way through and are shocked when they discover passages like those

I have at http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/babble.html Maybe you

could do a straw poll amongst those Christians you know and see how

many really have read it all. Of course I know some do (those in holy

orders read the whole bible 3 times a year) and it disturbs me to think

how they must rationalise the cruel passages to themselves. Whether

they notice all the really bad contradictions and absurdities is another

matter. A good place to discuss all this is the biblical errancy mailing

list http://www.infidels.org/electronic/email/secular.html#errancy a very

lively place indeed! You can get a hint of it from my URL at the top of

this paragraph, its links and this interesting email exchange

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/james/no.html

<< You also said that you have only heard of one person who had a bad time

after deconversion, my driving instructor after reading a book, called The

Holy Blood and the Holy Grail' by Michael Baignet, Richard Leigh and Henry

Lincoln, which I have also read and studied closely. This man was very

confused after his deconverstion experience and felt he had been fed a lie

by the church and believed this book, rather than the beautiful words of

Christ. We spoke for hours on the subject and he was so upset and

confused, he eventually left Christianity and became a Buddhist, >>

Actually you reminded me of some more case histories I have like this, so

I think I have understated the trauma that leaving religion can bring.

In fact I had forgotten that I had written about it myself at

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/posts.html#trauma and the writer

of this http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/posts.html#rant certainly

had a very tough time when he was deconverting. However afterwards he was

one of the most gentle, interesting and wise people I have met online,

full of good advice and comfort to other fresh deconverts on the ex-tian

(ex-Christian) mailing list. I still say that I don't know anyone who

really still regrets leaving Christianity as they get used to their new

world view, although some have spoken of a psychological tug for their

old ways. You must bear in mind that many ex-Christians spent most

of their lives as Christians and so the psychological tie is often very

strong. Also many are quite bemused about what to do now in their

lives as plans have to alter so much, especially for former ministers

etc. The Sea of Faith may minister to many of these people

http://www.sofn.org.uk/ I'm willing to be shown counter examples and

if you have the email address of your driving instructor then I will write

to him to see if he is willing to send me his story.

Meanwhile many of the words of Christ seem far from beautiful to me

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/babble.html

<< (Perhaps it was really my driving that did it, I do not know), but he

did confess that although he was a Christian, he had never had a personal

encounter with Jesus Christ, very few people actually do. >>

If you take a surf through my stories you will find many examples of

people who believed they had a close personal relationship and

encounter with Jesus Christ who later came to the conclusion they were

mistaken.

<< I hope I you enjoyed this letter, and I am sorry about the

misunderstanding. >>

The only way we are going to get rid of misunderstanding is through

communication, so I am grateful for any civil emails.

<< PS Here's a good puzzler from my brother, him and me were atheists

for a long, but this is a good question ' If Adam and Eve did not have the

knowledge of good and evil, before they took the fruit of the tree, how

did they know it was wrong to pick the fruit? >>

I've seen that one aired often. Indeed it is an absurdity - how can they

be blamed for ignoring God's order before they knew that ignoring God's

orders was wrong! Imagine you had put a dangerous object in a child's

playpen, told them not to touch (that would arouse their curiosity!) and

also put someone else in who said it is okay to touch! According to

Genesis 3:24 after Adam and Eve had been expelled from paradise,

God "placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming

sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Seems odd

that God didn't think of that in the first place. I am going to put a fire guard up

before my child crawls into the fire.

The other part of the absurdity is that the Adam and Eve thing didn't

happen (see note). If you are a creationist (if not then you'll have to

excuse me as I don't know which kind of Christian you are) then I recommend

the talk.origins archive at

http://www.talkorigins.org/ and the following two sites:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9917/evolution/evolve.html

http://www.iup.edu/~rgendron/bi112-a.htmlx

I am starting to put these email exchanges on my website so that I don't

get asked the same thing too often. If you would like to remain

anonymous then please let me know.

Steve

----- Original Message -----

From: Kev'n'Joy

To: Steve Locks <Steve Locks>

Sent: 29 August 1999 20:58

Subject: Re: Your E-mail

Dear Steve,

Thanks for your letter, please understand that I appreciate your views, but

mine differ from yours, I don't feel that I can carry on sending E-mails, as

my faith in God will never change, he is my guide throughout my life.

I have a very happy, content and peaceful life, and I wish you all the best

for the future.

Joy

PS My original letter was a mistake, please do not send me anymore E-mails.