Ashley Coogan
Feedback discussions - Ashley Coogan
a Journalism student, asks research questions about why I wrote my site and the reactions I have had.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ashley M Coogan
To: Steve Locks
Sent: 21 September 2000 18:37
Subject: your website
Steve-
Hi. My name is Ashley and I am a journalism student at the University of
Alabama. I am writing an article about religion on the Internet; I ran across
your website while doing research.
I would like to thank you for being so honest and vulnerable about your
attempts at religion and your struggles to understand God. I know that you
must have opened yourself up to a lot of criticism; I appreciate the stand
that you take for something that you so strongly believe in.
Now, I would like to apologize to you, because I feel that you have searched
for a long time, and that the church- as the body of Christ- did not take the
time to make God real to you. I am what most people consider religious, but I
would like to tell you why I don't believe in that term at all. "Religion"
just means man's attempts to put God in a box, and all the rules and
regulations that have evolved since the beginning of time. I believe that God
is bigger than all of that stuff and all the ways that we have messed His
message up.
I am going to sign off, because I don't want to impose on you. I think that
what you have to say is important; I would love to hear any thoughts you would
want to share on this.
Ashley
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Locks
To: Ashley M Coogan
Sent: 21 September 2000 20:29
Subject: Re: your website
Dear Ashley,
Thank you for your concern and kind words.
I have already discussed your points to some extent here
which you should read if you haven't already.
To elaborate, I wasn't "let down" by any of the Christians I knew, church or
anyone. Rather private research led me to the conclusion that the central
Christian claims are not true. Also, like you, as a Christian I viewed
"religion" as "Man's fallen attempt to respond to God" and that the proper way
to know God was "as Adam did" (I meant Adam figuratively, since I was not a
fundamentalist). I remember saying this at my "home group" and there were nods
and murmurs of approval. It is also something I got from Bonhoeffer - his book
"Ethics" if I remember correctly.
I was also into the classic Christian mystics, "The Cloud of Unknowing,"
Thomas A Kempis - "the Imitation of Christ," St. John of the Cross - the
"Dark Night of the Soul" etc. and like you thought that any attempt to
imprison God in our definitions of him was bound to failure - he was more
lively and interesting than that! So, no I did not box him in by any means. It
happened like I said in my story. I read a lot of philosophy, psychology
history, biblical criticism and comparative religion etc. and Christianity
became impossible for me to believe.
If you read my long discussion with Dr. Anthony Garrett I also discuss much
about how believing things is not a choice.
<< I believe that God is bigger than all of that stuff and all the ways that
we have messed His message up. >>
So what then is his message? I think any attempt at formulating one ends up
with great problems and the simple fact is that there really is no god at all.
<< I am going to sign off, because I don't want to impose on you. I think that
what you have to say is important; I would love to hear any thoughts you would
want to share on this. >>
Okay, thanks for your thoughts, but please do follow my links if you have not
already, (just to save me some time!)
Best wishes and thanks again.
Steve
----------------
Leaving Christianity:
----- Original Message -----
From: Ashley M Coogan
To: Steve Locks
Sent: 04 October 2000 20:57
Steve-
I'm not sure if you'll remember me; I wrote you a few weeks ago about your
website. I am doing an article for a journalism class at the University of
Alabama on religion and the internet. Your site has been one of the more
interesting ones by far, and I would love to quote you in my article if you
could answer a few of my questions.
-What lead you to start a website dedicated to leaving Christianity?
-What has the public response to your site been?
-How do you feel the Internet has affected your ability to make your viewpoint
known?
-Have your beliefs affected others (that you know of) because of the
information they got off your website?
-What is your opinion of the manner in which the Internet will affect
organized religion?
I understand that some or all of these questions could be answered on your
site, but I would like to be able to quote you directly. Thanks so much for
your help; I believe that you have a viewpoint that is not voiced enough and I
would love to be able to include anything you could share.
Ashley Coogan
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Locks
To: Ashley M Coogan
Sent: 06 October 2000 23:56
Subject: Your questions
Dear Ashley,
Thank you for your interest. I do remember you and am flattered by your
interest and questions.
I am not an expert though, just an interested person, so I hope you won't give
my particular thoughts undue weight.
You may also be interested in my guest essay here
http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/slocks.htm which is a summary of my
researches.
<< -What lead you to start a website dedicated to leaving Christianity? >>
Initially I just put my story and a couple of previous discussions online to
refer people to when on debate lists (an example of such a debate/discussion
is here seek and ye shall find?). Others were
doing this and it seemed the polite thing to do, rather than repeat lengthy
arguments. Mainly though, I felt I had accrued a lot of useful links from my
time on the "extian" (i.e. ex-Christian) mailing list and my reading of the
ex-tian archives. There are already many sites about people leaving
Christianity and collections of testimonies around the Internet, but to my
knowledge no central place that links to them all. I eventually thought I
could carve a niche by providing a meta-resource to all these collections
of stories. It was not my intention to provide very much in terms of
arguments against Christianity, as there are already so many sites
doing this. I became more concerned to provide support for new
de-converts from Christianity. Virtually all of my arguments given against
Christianity have been shaken out of me by Christians during feedback and
other discussions.
The Internet is one of the few places where those who leave Christianity can
turn easily for help and find people who have already been through this
leaving process. Often new deconverts feel that they are in a very lonely
situation as there is nobody around who will sympathetically listen to their
thoughts. Christians are almost always only interested in "finding out where
we went wrong." Therefore it can be a great thrill and relief to find others
with similar stories to see how normal ones feelings are and to see the
healthy lives of those who are years further on.
<< -What has the public response to your site been? >>
Interesting and wide ranging! Mainly I tried to imagine what I would be
interested in when I was a doubting Christian and shortly after I left
Christianity. So I have been pleased to see that about a third of people who
write share some of their experiences and often comment on how pleased they
are to find so many resources from similar people (imagine the scenario of
deconverting from Christianity in the bible belt in the midst of a very
religious family!) Quite a few just write short thank you notes.
Another third or so used to write emails to explain where I have gone wrong.
Although most are reasonably polite, some are quite aggressive with the caps
lock key on, sometimes with threats about what will happen to me in the
hereafter. I have managed to reduce this by use of the email page which
people have to read before they can find my address (as you will know!)
Since then this sort of thing has reduced significantly, but not disappeared.
The rest are somewhat like yours, and are probably the most interesting - i.e.
reflective emails with genuine questions. Some just want to chat, bounce some
ideas around or ask for further information. I have had a few long lasting and
in depth discussions with some of these people, but I have not directly put
examples on my site, rather just weave the odd insight gained into other
discussions.
If you want some examples of the things people write see my guestbook and
feedback. These are only examples though, because it gets too repetitive
to put them all up. If you want some more personal, or scary ones, then let
me know (I will have to keep the personal ones anon though).
<< -How do you feel the Internet has affected your ability to make your
viewpoint known? >>
Fantastically! I can talk about what I want to my hearts content. It is good
therapy, very cathartic and a great way to learn - discussing ideas which
often lead to more research. Until I was online this was restricted to putting
ideas into notebooks, and the occasional conversations with friends (usually
in the pub!)
It is not just about making my viewpoint known though, as discussing on NG's,
mailing lists and private email lets me test my ideas and compare experiences.
It's the closest I can find to getting some peer review.
However, I don't feel these are "my" ideas particularly, rather I am reporting
the wider picture as I see it out there. The wealth and variety of experience
and reflection in some of the stories I have read is quite enlightening. There
are very few ideas I have that I haven't found expressed in one way or
another by other people during my time surfing, reading and discussing. I think
some are attracted by discussions of emotions as well as ideas, which
is why I have left my story on the first page. I almost relegated it to a link, but I
found that so many people responded to it that it was obviously capturing
people's imagination, so I left it up to give something substantial and
personal on the first page. Also I think casual surfers often don't go much
further than a home page, so it's good to have something to chew on.
[Note (31st Oct 2000), I have since relegated it to a link].
Finally, I not only want to share thoughts and discoveries, but also to learn
as much as I can. I frequently surf on using my own website as a starting
point.
<< -Have your beliefs affected others (that you know of) because of the
information they got off your website? >>
That is more difficult to be sure of. Some have written to say they find it
encouraging to see similar people and feel less alone in a very Christian
society because of the resources I link to. Others say they finally feel
understood and realise they are sane! That was the main reason for my
site once it was a reasonable size, so I'm glad it seems to work to that
extent. I don't know if I've really influenced anyone to seriously question
Christianity though - I think it takes many factors to do that, although from
feedback like Jim Moretz's my ideas, or similar from others, may have caused
some reflection.
I have definitely caused some to change opinion through private email, not to
the extent of abandoning Christianity, but to the extent of changing minor
views and I did get one person to accept evolution in private discussion.
These are hard work though, and I'm still trying to weave some of these
discussions into articles for my site (but where's the time!) Of course others
have also influenced me - particularly in understanding the nature of
fundamentalism, since I was used to quite a laid back and moderate Christian
atmosphere when I was a Christian.
<<-What is your opinion of the manner in which the Internet will affect
organized religion? >>
There is no doubt that on an individual level people leave Christianity due to
what they read and argue about on the Internet. An example is Peter Kirby, who
went on to become the owner of the "Xtianity" mailing list (a list for
discussing if Christianity is true).
www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/individual_decon_stories.html#peterkirby
Other examples are Chris Ashton
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~cashton/atheism/page8.html
Anon http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/tsr/tsr6.html
Wayne VanWeerthuizen http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/tsr/tsr10.html
I have discussed this on the "Xtianity" mailing list and have seen it
discussed elsewhere. It seems that on a number of debating forums
(alt.atheism, alt.bible.errancy, Xtianity etc.) people occasionally deconvert,
but nobody could think of an example of a conversion to Christianity on a
debating panel.
As for the larger question of what will happen to organised religion, that is
too difficult for me! Nevertheless, I think religion will probably continue to
change and also have revivals, slumps, reactions and transformations for
a long time. It still amazes me that there are fundamentalists in the modern
world, but even so they are a long way from the fundamentalists of Martin
Luther's time. Likewise any fundamentalists and other religious folk of a
few hundred years time are likely to look very heretical to today's Christians
(but then many current Christians look heretical to other contemporary
Christians!). How much will be due to the Internet, I am not sure, although
my guess is that if people are aware of the level of debate and research
that has been done, it will be harder to merely accept what is traditionally
taught from the pulpit. Anyone can now read the deliberations of scholars
like those of the Jesus Seminar or the Sea of Faith - these things are no
longer only accessible to those at liberal theological seminaries - see
It is also much easier to track down and buy their previously obscure books.
From reading testimonies this is exactly what happens to many people - they
research and loose faith. I am not so sure though that most people have the
energy and inclination for so much research. The information may be out
there and easily accessed now, but you can't make people read it or even be
interested!
I wrote this in my "guest essay" at
http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/slocks.htm
"In our modern age with ease of access to information many of us are still
bought up to believe the unexamined religion of our culture. It is not routine
at church or school to research the historical claims of Christianity or to
critically examine its dogmas. The fact that this examination has even
occurred is rarely known, neither is the extent of the criticism appreciated.
What percentage of Christians have done their "extra-Christian homework" and
have well thumbed critical books on their bookshelves? Most study is
devotional or inclined towards "what is God saying here?" Indeed, most
Christians are surrounded by other Christians, seldom in an environment
promoting critical examination of beliefs. It is usually left to the personal
research of the curious amongst us, or the chance discovery of a student of
religion to stumble across the historical, psychological, philosophical,
anthropological and sociological problems of Christianity."
It would be interesting to know how many (or what proportion of) people are
becoming Christians due to what they read on the Internet. More interesting
would be the influence on those who give equal time to both sides of the
argument. However I doubt people really give truly equal time unless they are
going through a transitionary period and are trying to initially find out and
assess what both sides have to say. Even then, I suspect when committed
but doubtful, people read opposing arguments with fascination but nevertheless
some trepidation. Maybe you could tell me from your researches when your
results are in.
Personally, I still read Christian apologetics, to see what they are currently
saying and how strong or weak I find it, but admittedly not as much as the
other side, which I find more interesting and enlightening. I have had a belly
full of Christian apologetics over the years, but keep my hand in to be fair
and up to date!
<< Thanks so much for your help >>
Thank you for asking. As you know, people love talking about themselves and
their ideas, so you were bound to get a response! :-)
<< I believe that you have a viewpoint that is not voiced enough and I
would love to be able to include anything you could share. >>
It's kind of you to say so. If you don't mind, what was it that attracted you
to asking my opinion? What did you find on or via my site that interested
you or was of value? I would like to develop or at least think about the parts
that are found most thought provoking by a range of people.
If you could send me a summary of the results of your researches then I
would be very interested to read what you find and to hear any of your other
comments.
I hope that lot is of use to you and good luck in your project.
Regards,
Steve
----------------
Leaving Christianity