Episode Transcripts - Season 2

Legend: B.A. (Bachelor’s of Arts), B.S. (Bachelor’s of Science), EKG (electrocardiogram), JABSOM (John A. Burns School of Medicine), MCAT (Medical College Admission Test), MD1 (first unit of medical school), MD2 (second unit of medical school), UH (University of Hawaii)

[Intro - 00:12]

Jason: Hi everyone, welcome to JABSOM Journey’s. 

Andie: Today, we are going to be introducing ourselves, the new host of the JABSOM Journey’s team. We are so excited to carry on the hard work and amazing stories that the first host brought to life in their first season of the show. We wanted to thank them for their guidance and support. We hope to continue capturing the diverse, resilient, and encouraging stories of our classmates here at JABSOM. In this season we aim to gather even more perspectives and advice to further help future medical students navigate their journey in medicine.

[Welcome our new hosts! - 00:42]

Andie: My name is Andie Conching and I’m a first-year student at JABSOM. I was born and raised here in Manoa valley on Oahu and went to Kamehameha Schools for my whole life. I graduated from there in 2014 and then went all the way to Dartmouth College where yes, this island girl survived -30 degree weather. I graduated in 2018 with my B.A. in Neuroscience and after doing countless rat brain surgeries, continued on to the National Institute of Health to pursue more neuroscience research. I always thought I would be somebody who would go straight through so three gap years felt like a lot, but I knew that I personally needed to take some time after graduating and I knew that once I started medicine, this is what I would dedicate my life to. I have a very research heavy background, but I feel like that experience gave me valuable insight into human health and disease. Now it's time to move from mice to people and I couldn't be happier to start my time here.

Carly: Hi, my name is Carly Coleman and I'm also a first-year medical student. I was born here on Oahu and graduated from Kamehameha High School in 2014 with Andie, who was actually my best friend since kindergarten. I did a couple of years at the University of San Diego before coming back to Hawaii and graduating from UH Manoa with a B.S. in Biology, so a pretty typical pre-med major. I applied right out of college to JABSOM thinking “why not,” but knowing I definitely wasn't prepared and surprise, I didn't get in. I ended up taking that next year to improve my MCAT score and resume. I became part of a research project at the UH cancer center, started a special needs swim program, retook some science classes, and was part of the Native Hawaiian Student Pathway to Medicine program so the next time I applied, I felt a lot more confident and now I'm here.

Jason: Hi, my name is Jason Seto and I’m yet another first-year medical student. I was born in Boston but moved to Oahu when I was three years old. I went to Iolani schools from k-12 and then Amherst College in Western Massachusetts where I majored in biology. After graduating, I came home and worked as an EKG technician at the Queen's Medical Center. In January of 2020, I went to Malaysia to teach English as part of the Fulbright Fellowship. However, I had to return home to Hawaii after just a few months due to covid. Once home, I started the application process and became involved in several research studies including a fun one where I helped to train dogs to smell for covid. Overall, it was a long and eventful journey but I'm happy to be here at JABSOM. 

Jonathan: Hi, my name is Jonathan Loi and I’m also a first-year medical student. I was born and raised here in Aiea, Oahu but I graduated from Kalani High School in 2016. I went to UH Manoa and started pursuing a degree in biochemistry, but I ended up taking so many classes in my first two years where I had extra time, so I decided to add on a double major and graduated in 2020 with a B.S. in Biochemistry and a B.A. in Microbiology. I didn't want to rush my application during school so I decided to take a gap year where I became an emergency department scribe. I applied during my gap year and now here I am.

Kameron: How's it everybody, my name is Kam Ho Ching and I grew up on the north shore of Oahu in La’ie. I did my undergraduate degree in physiology and developmental biology at Brigham Young University in Utah and to prepare for medical school I just did a lot of things that I really loved to do and that I was passionate about. So for example, one thing that I loved to do was interpretation, I learned a language doing some volunteer work in Southeast Asia and so I did interpretation, and along with that came some medical opportunities, some shadowing opportunities, and that really helped me and it gave me a lot of opportunities to interact with people, with patients, and to grow my skills and it was a great blessing and I'm happy to be here.

[Jason, what advice would you give to pre-meds? - 04:20]

Andie: Now that you've met the four of us, we want to talk about some of the experiences and advice we have from our medical journeys. So Jason, what advice would you give to pre-meds who are interested in applying to JABSOM?

Jason: Yeah, so one thing I'd recommend is don't lose yourself in the process, like you have all these hobbies and activities and sports and friends and family and those things are really what make you, you, and given how long and rigorous the application process is, iit can be easy to kind of push those things aside and lose aspects of yourself. But medical schools are looking for people who are interesting and have diverse experiences and that's really part of the reason why we started this podcast, so investing time into those other aspects of your life will ultimately help you more than you realize, so yeah, that's just my two cents.

[Jon, what was an important experience in your journey to medical school? - 05:02]

Andie: Thanks Jason, that's great advice. So Jon, what was an important experience in your journey to medical school?

Jonathan: I think one of my most important experiences that got me here was working as an emergency department scribe. I worked as a scribe for around one and a half years and got to learn so much from the physicians, the nurses, and the technicians that I worked with. I got to learn a lot of the medical jargon and get a lot of shadowing experience watching so many physicians care for patients. I think getting any sort of clinical experience is really important because it gives you a sense if medicine is really something that you want to get into.

[Carly, how does it feel being on the other side? - 05:34]

Andie: Yeah, that's something that I didn't really get but I think that I would have liked to do that. So Carly, what do you think it's like now being on the other side? Like we're here, we made it!

Carly: On the other side, let's see… So after applications and interviews and shadowing and all those things we all had to do, it's like a relief honestly. Every time that I'm stressed or I think things are challenging, I remind myself about how I wished to be in this position in the first place. There's definitely a steep learning curve, we're like five months in right now and I'm still not adjusted, but I'm getting there. For me at least, I had to look at my studying methods. I thought I had it down in college and studying for the MCAT, but medical school made me reassess how I study, so it can be a little frustrating at first, but it's also an interesting process to see the different ways you can change as a student to become more efficient. Our class was luckily able to actually be in person even though we are currently in covid times. I think one of the things I was nervous about was getting along with my classmates or not feeling out of place, but I love my classmates, I definitely don't feel out of place, I feel like we have a great mix of people that bring different backgrounds and cultures which is so important. Academic wise, like I was saying, yeah it can be challenging and some things might feel confusing. Sometimes I feel like there's a lot of things to do and I don't know when it's due or where I’m supposed to submit it, so it can get overwhelming, especially from the MD1 to MD2 transition where we're going from two finals to four finals, but it's forced me to be on top of things. I feel like if I can hang on, then so can you. Just really try to find a good support system, there's a lot of great faculty that are willing to help, just don't be afraid to venture outside your comfort zone, that would be my biggest advice.

Andie: Yeah, I think that I can't stress the support system thing enough. I think that that was really important and remains important and you have to keep staying in contact with all those people that brought you here, and just continue to hold on to that.

[Catch us next time with the youngest student in our class - 07:33]

Andie: So that brings us to the end of our first brief introduction episode. In the first episode of our real season, we're going to be talking with a fellow first-year student who is the youngest in our class, Ryan Nguyen. We're excited to hear about his unique journey into medical school.

Carly: Thank you for joining in. We have so many exciting things planned for this season and look forward to you joining us as we explore the journeys of our classmates. If you have any comments or suggestions for this series, please fill out the feedback survey posted on our website. Thanks and see you next time on JABSOM Journey’s. 

Legend: 

JABSOM: John A. Burns School of Medicine

UH: University of Hawai’i

PBL: Problem based learning

KCC: Kapiolani Community College

[Intro]

Andie: Hi guys, welcome to the first episode of the second season of JABSOM Journeys. I am here with Jon Loi, who's gonna be my co-host today, and we are lucky enough to be joined by our classmate Ryan Nguyen. He has been known in our class as like, the 16 year old who has like been so impressive and just has this amazing story about how he, while we were all probably like, you know, doing things that you do at 16 years old, he was, you know, taking the MCAT and getting into medical school. So while this podcast is like made for advice he has like a really awesome story that he wants to share with you guys today, so maybe Ryan, if you could introduce yourself?

Ryan: Sure, so hey I'm Ryan Nguyen. Thank you for the introduction. As a student, I kind of went to Kaiser High School, graduated, went to Kapiolani Community College and UH Mānoa for undergrad. I did BS Biology, and now I'm here, talking to you guys.

Andie: We kind of wanted to start actually with like a fun question, like in PBL how we

open with like kind of a question of the day to just kind of get the conversation flowing, and I actually can't remember what the question was. Do you remember Jon? Do you have a question Ryan that you've liked so far in PBL?

Ryan: Here's one – alright, what's the last book you read and do you recommend it?

Was it good or bad? No textbooks, everybody says textbooks – that’s cheating –

Jon: That’s a challenge, you assume I read Ryan.

Andie: Yeah I'm I think the last book that I've read was, or I'm currently reading the book that everybody, you know, recommends before you get to med school, but here I am reading it in the third unit, but I'm reading “When Breath Becomes Air,” um and I've liked it so far. Everyone says it's really amazing, um I don't know if any of you have read that yet but –

Jon: So to be honest I do have the book –

Andie: Is it like collecting dust – 

Jon:  – it's been on my shelf for a while. I have not touched it yet, but yeah.

Andie: But it's there.

Jon: It's there, I have it.

Andie: Mhm. Yeah. What about you Jon, what is the last thing you read? No you don't read.

Jon: Yeah that's the problem, I don't read books too often. I do love to read subtitles though, so you know, I don't know. I like to watch a lot of K-dramas when I have free time.

Andie: Yeah that's like practicing your reading skills. How about you Ryan?

Ryan: Close enough, that counts. For me, it was “One Liter of Tears.” Have you guys heard of that? Maybe by a different name. Yeah, but it's about, oh yeah it's like an autobiography of a young girl living in Japan with a certain disease, just kind of chronicling her progress, her thoughts on life, her philosophy. It's a really interesting and sad kind of book to read. I read it like right before I got into med school, but it's a, it's a pretty good time. I definitely recommend it.

Andie: Yeah that sounds really good, I'll have to go look into that. Is it like pretty long?

Ryan: It's – I don't remember, but it's not too bad I think.

Andie: Yeah, well that sounds interesting. Didn't you just go on a trip too? I was telling Jon that earlier.

Ryan: Yeah I actually went to Washington, so the, way up there, the cold one, not on East Coast.

Andie: Oh okay, yeah I thought you went to, I thought you went somewhere else, because I was like oh he brought boba cakes. Ryan brought boba cakes for the whole class and it was really, really good. Yeah I thought you went international. Okay, well that was a fun question. So I guess now you said you went to University of Hawai’i and you'd take some classes at KCC?

Ryan: Mhm.

[Overview of Ryan’s Journey- 4:01]

Andie: And so was that during high school? Or maybe you can tell us a little bit about, like, your I guess your education experience, because if you guys didn't hear, like he's 16, and he got into medical school and I don't think like I've ever heard of that before except for in like fictional stories um like Disney Channel shows, but we've got the real thing here, so yeah maybe you can tell us like what it was like. Just kind of your educational journey and like how you got here?

Ryan: I actually made a mistake, I'm 17 years old. Yeah 10 days ago, I turned 17. 

Andie: Oh! Happy belated birthday.

Jon: Happy belated birthday.

Andie: Wait, are you a New Year’s baby?

Ryan: Uh close enough.

Andie: Whoa very cool, wait what's today –  the eight – 

Ryan: Birthday's on the sixth.

Andie: Yeah oh, oh I see, well that was bad maths. Maybe you can start off by like, did you always know you wanted to do medicine?

Ryan: Definitely not, definitely not. So I, I'll give you the whole story here I guess. So the kind of  abnormality maybe, started in middle school, so that was when I was doing science fair. It was just you know basic research middle school science fair kind of stuff, it was a good time –

Andie: What was your project?

Ryan: Oh I had a ton of them. A couple of them were on teeth, because my dad's a dentist. So it was like, oh easy yeah, let's go into his office to see some stuff. But later down the line I got into vog research, because when my brother was young, we lived on the big island, and he had a lot of problems with asthma, volcanic air pollution, so I looked into that a little bit, and interestingly that's kind of the, that was kind of the catalyst for getting into where I am now because our mentor for that project, my brother and I, was a professor over at UH and he invited us to audit a few of his classes when I was in middle school. So just you know, sitting into chemistry learning a little bit, maybe applying that to our research. And later down the line, we ended up taking, both my brother and I, ended up taking the Compass Test, which is a way to kind of test into college for students of really any age I believe. I think they kind of got rid of it now, but it was a really nice opportunity back then. And from there, while I was in eighth grade, I started taking my first two classes. I still remember it. It was calculus and philosophy or psychology – it's one of the two.

Andie: Wow.

Ryan: Yeah, it was a good time.

Andie: So that was your first college class?

Ryan: Mhm.

Andie: And then how old were you when you did that?

Ryan: Ah that's a good question. So I started middle school when I was nine, so nine, 10, 11 – I think I was 12. Pretty sure.

Andie: I don't even – what was I even doing when I was 12? I guess, like what made you be like I want to take this test, you know, like I've never really heard of that, but yeah like was it like your parents or was it the professor?

Ryan: For me, I wanted to compete with my brother because I took it, I took it half a year after him, and we've always been kind of – we're a year and a half apart – we've always been kind of competitive in that way, and academically usually I just kind of rolled over, let him you know beat me on that, because I didn't feel like studying. I wasn't a great student in middle school, but I felt like this is something where he showed that young students could do it, and I kind of followed him, or I paid attention to how he studied. I looked at his techniques, and I wanted to do that myself, and that's kind of how I got into it. And it turns out, I ended up doing better than him on it. I placed into calculus, he placed into trig. So he retook it just to catch up to me, so I felt pretty happy about that.

Andie: Aw we love a good sibling competition that kind of drove me and my sister into where we the both of us are now too. That being said, uh I was gonna ask you like who your role models were. Kind of sounds like you had a few growing up.

Ryan: Definitely. Honestly I think my brother's too close to see him as a role model, yeah. Yeah, he's like, he's a good friend, well he's a brother you know. That relationship's a bit hard to explain, but as far as role models, I think my father definitely. He was a refugee in Vietnam and he's just, his story includes just a lot of you know, working way up the ladder, finding opportunities for yourself, and that's something that I really respect.

Andie: Yeah how inspiring I see how growing up with somebody like that would be so motivational. So after you took the Compass Test, and then you got into college right, then so you went to UH to finish out, is that to finish out your pre reqs and stuff?

Ryan: Yeah, so I transferred I think in the second year, and because I was in eighth grade at the time when I started. I was kind of doing high school at the same time, but I was mostly skipping my class. Good boys and girls don't do this. I was skipping all my classes, just going to orchestra in the morning, and then you know going to college after. So I kind of did most of my pre reqs at KCC yeah.

Andie: Wow yeah, what did you play in orchestra?

Ryan: Cello.

Andie: Oh can you still play?

Ryan: No way, definitely no.

Andie: I feel like that's one of the ones that takes a lot of like practice and diligence.

Ryan: Yeah for sure, it's fun though.

Jon: So how was taking those college classes while you were in what middle school and high school, like what was it like you think?

Ryan: Yeah, so for me it was, I kind of liked it because I went to an IB school, so if you guys haven't heard of that it's a kind of system I don't know where they have it, international baccalaureate, um for middle and high school where they have this really weird grading system where it's not like you just get a certain amount of answers wrong or right and then you get a score. It's like have you shown improvement over time, and that was too ambiguous for me compared to when I started college. I felt like I could really get a grasp of the expectations of the course and do well on my own. So I actually really like that.

Jon: Mmm, it sounds great, yeah I kind of did like a similar program in high school. I took like a running start program. So it let us take some community college courses, and then make it count double for like a college credit and our high school credit as well, so then that helped me to kind of double dip in my credits, but also like to get out of high school like at least end the day a little earlier, which is kind of fun yeah.

Andie: Yeah, um I mean, you must have been like so busy studying for both high school and college. And so when you were doing that I guess like what other experiences did you have that kind of like kind of shaped your journey to medical school since like you've talked about the vog research – I personally have allergies so I appreciate it. And yeah what like, did you like go shadowing? Did you get into the hospital?

Ryan: For me, yeah. For me, it was kind of doing a little bit more biomedical research and realizing, oh they're like, this is a direct application to you know, help people through medicine and after that, I got into shadowing quite a bit. I really enjoyed spending time in the ED. I think that's definitely influenced me a lot. 

Andie: Is emergency medicine in your cards?

Ryan: It most definitely is.

Andie: Mhm.

Ryan: Along with a couple other things, so –

Andie: Oh, what are they?

Ryan: So far looking into surgery. Orthopedic surgery is pretty interesting to me. I really like the cases they do, and their kind of approach to that. So that's the main two things for me.

Jon: How do you like shadowing in the ED? I kind of scribed in the ED for quite a while too, so then I thought it was really interesting getting to see like kind of like a diverse set of different cases.

Ryan: Yeah for me, it was really exciting. It was one of the first things that I really did as a pre-med student to get into that. And um I was over in Hilo Medical Center. For me it was just a really good time talking to everybody, all the staff all the you know all the parts of the medical team, the physicians as well, gave me a lot of insight I feel like.

Andie: Mhm. Did you do you have any like really memorable moments from there that was like,  yes, this is like why I'm here, or like what I want to do?

Ryan: Honestly I felt that, kind of yeah, this is why here this is why i'm here. Every time like I was just standing in the patient's room you know with the doctor in the ED, just trying to listen into the case, figure out what's going on. I really felt that you know this is really awesome, I want to do this, this is why I, you know traveled out here, and yeah that's how it was for me.

Jon: So when did you actually um shadow the ED physicians in Hilo? Because I know you were like pretty much raised here, you went to high school here.

Ryan: Yeah, so for me my dad kind of travels between Oahu and Big Island for work. I used to live in Kona on the Big Island way back when, but usually I would tend to go either on the weekends when he kind of left, or usually during breaks like winter break summer break. Just spend a couple weeks over there.

Andie: Yeah that's really fun, that's a really good experience. I'm like personally somebody who didn't have a lot of clinical experience coming in here, and that's something that I really, not regret, but wish I did more of. But yeah, I guess a more difficult question that we had for you was like, I took three gap years, and you know like took time to just like well figure out how to apply to medical school and you're someone who like was able to just go through, and that's like very impressive, and we were just kind of wondering like, because you started medical school at such a young age, at like 16, was there anything that you wish you did before that you had time for?

Ryan: Yeah, so this is – 

Andie: Before you committed to the world of medicine?

Ryan: Mhm, mhm. Yeah that's a good question, something I've thought about myself quite a bit. One component of that is, when I was in high school, I was kind of, as I mentioned, not really attending any of the classes, but what I did get to do, because I was technically a student was go to all the dances, the fun events with my friends, stuff like that. But I feel like kind of overall, I had a very well-rounded experience as a college student as well. I spent a lot of time looking into my hobbies, I made a lot of college friends, uh I wouldn't say I have any regrets. At the very least it's been fun for me personally, and there's certainly quite a few things that, you know, only a high schooler can experience, and perhaps I might have missed out on that, but I really, I really wanted to do this path that i'm in right now, and honestly I'm just glad it's worked out. So that kind of overrules everything else for me.

Andie: Yeah, absolutely. I mean your accomplishments, and just personality, speak for itself. 

[Hobbies and De-stressing - 15:00]

Andie: But um you say that you kind of got to explore your hobbies a lot, um so I saw that you are starting to draw.

Ryan: Yes.

Andie: Is that a new hobby? Or is that like a, I guess return to an old hobby?

Ryan: Pretty much. When I was a kid, I always drew, you know all the time, just random kid stuff, you know doodles everywhere. But most recently, two years ago, I wanted to really get into drawing manga, as embarrassing as it is, yeah. I've always been huge on manga. I read like a ton, and I started trying to seriously get into that, but unfortunately I stopped because I was just frustrated not making progress. But I picked that up recently, so trying to get back into that.

Andie: Wow, so do you have to build like a whole storyline when you do that too? So you're like writing and drawing?

Ryan: Yeah it's, it's kind of a fun experience I haven't really um finished anything I'm proud of yet. But it's good practice, at least. It's a good time.

Andie: What is like the, I guess like, content that you like to do? Like what is the genre?

Ryan: Yeah, it matches up with my favorite to read so it's actually slice of life. I like comedy a lot, but it seems pretty unreachable for somebody like me to write for now. But yeah slice of life. So just kind of exploring people's uh day-to-day, you know, calm moments, fun moments, interesting things, everything kind of wrapped up into one. I think it's a good time.

Andie: Yeah do you think that drawing has anything to do with kind of like, I don't know, the way that you'd like to be like a surgeon? Or you know I feel like it has a lot of visual stuff going on there?

Ryan: I get you, I get you. What I will say is that the anatomy lab has helped me out a ton with just figuring out honestly –

Andie: Right.

Ryan: – just figuring out how to draw characters and whatnot.

Andie: Oh my gosh, yeah that makes a lot of sense, yeah. Just like getting a better sense of like where the muscles are and like how the joints work. That's really funny. And I also see that you're like really into music? What kind of music do you like to listen to?

Ryan: Oh man.

Andie: Or is it more playing– playing music?

Ryan:  It's I don't really play music too much nowadays, I just uh I play recorder sometimes. Yeah, the weird-looking thing from elementary school.

Andie: Oh that's so funny, can you play like songs on it?

Ryan: I used to be able to. Now I can just kind of very slowly figure stuff out, but yeah. And as for what I listen to, I listen to uh ridiculous amounts of vocaloid music. Have you guys heard of that? 

Andie: I don't think I have. 

Jon: No, what's that?

Ryan: It's a kind of Japanese, I guess the easiest way to say it, it's like a vocal synth where you have a robot-sounding voice, a voice bank sing out um things that you ask it to. And you tune in a specific way to get the voice that you want. It's kind of a, it's a pretty well known genre. I'm a fan of it for quite a few reasons, but that's definitely the thing I listen to the most.

Andie: Well I've never heard of that, but I'm gonna have to look into that, that sounds really cool. 

Ryan: Yeah.

Andie: So given that you have like, a bunch of hobbies, it's really crazy that you have time to do all of that. I was just wondering how do you like to spend your free time? – The few hours of free time that you do have in the week? Or how do you like to de-stress?

Ryan: I'm pretty much a pro de-stressing I would say. I read again, I read a ton of manga. Thankfully music is something you can listen to while you know, you're studying sometimes, as long as it doesn't distract too much. Yeah. But one thing I really like doing when I have, you know, a couple – a nice little chunk of free time, is play video games. Usually online stuff with friends.

Andie: Yeah what do you play?

Ryan: Recently i've been playing a ton of FPS, like first person shooter games, Escaped From Tarkov if you guys have heard of it. It's a bit of a more hardcore thing, it's kind of scary though.

[Studying for the MCAT- 18:57]

Andie: Wow, yeah so this podcast is kind of like for you know future medical students, current medical students, 

Jon: Pre-meds.

Andie: Yeah pre-meds and like people who are interested in just medical education, so like as someone who had all this going on you have like all of college going on at the same time as high school, like when do you have time to study for the MCAT and how did that go for you?

Ryan: Yeah so the MCAT for me, that was the first time – I'm a bit of a crammer, I'll say that much. Especially that manifested throughout college, um so I thankfully had a lot of free time to relax and because of that I just really took my summer break I believe. I think so, yeah. So a couple months to just buckle down and spend all of that on the MCAT. It was hard at first, but I kind of had a schedule. I had a structure that I wanted to use. I used Exam Crackers, a really good prep book. I definitely recommend that, and for me it was mostly just keeping track of the things that I didn't understand, and paying attention to how I wanted to improve and just consistently doing that up to the date. And thankfully the MCAT for me went pretty well. There were some strange disruptions on the exam day, so that kind of messed me up a little bit, but yeah it was an interesting experience, both taking the exam itself and preparing for it, I'd say.

Andie: Yeah everybody should listen to his advice, we asked Ryan if he would be like willing to share, and he you can tell us what you got, and like how you felt like you did, and you know if you would do anything different?

Ryan: I got a 517-518, so definitely happy with my score. That's pretty much exactly the goal that I wanted to hit, yeah so happy about that. Interestingly, I mean I read a ridiculous amount of um manga, read well actually that's not relevant, but I read a ton of books especially when I was younger in college. Yeah, so I felt like my um the CARS I think, it was –

Andie: Oh yeah.

Ryan: The reading and writing section or whatever, I thought I would do really well on that, and I didn't prep too hard I feel like during my practice practice exams I always did well on that, but that was my worst exam. Or that was my worst segment, so that really surprised me. So maybe even if you feel like you're good at something, it's a good idea to kind of go back on it check in on it, and understand the structure of the MCAT – how it asks its questions, because I feel like especially for CARS, that's pretty unique, and maybe you might get blindsided on that, so a good thing to prepare for. 

Jon: Oh yeah definitely I think CARS is probably the hardest section for most people. I know that was my lowest section too, so yeah, but you know, it is what it is sometimes and you just try to make up for it in other sections.

Ryan: Exactly yeah.

[If Not Medicine, What Would You Do? - 21:50]

Andie: So if you weren't going to do medicine, what would you do?

Ryan: For quite a bit actually for a couple years in college I was interested in being a researcher. I didn't really have, you know a set goal or a specific topic I wanted to look into, but you know something biomedical. For me, that was honestly a really nice tie into medicine because that's what got me interested into applying that, you know, clinically later down the line. But that's probably what I would have tried for.

Andie: Was it a lot of bench work?

Ryan: Yeah that's – it was a lot of fun, I wasn't too good at it. But that's the kind of thing I would have wanted to do. 

Andie: That's very, that's very brave. I feel like there's a lot of patience to be learned in

bench work and biomedical science work. But now that you've you kind of had experience or like exposure to both, I guess like what drew you more to medicine than research?

Ryan: If I had to give a breaking point perhaps it was uh this one class Biochemistry 441 or something similar at UH Manoa where Dr. Marikawa, one of our lecturers you know right now as you probably remember – He's awesome he's awesome.

Andie: Amazing.

Ryan: He taught that class, along with Steve Ward and Dr. Pogar over at UH and they worked at the IBR, or yeah most of them worked at the IBR, which is where I was kind of doing a little bit of research too. But Dr. Marikawa, what really stood out to me about his lectures were that when he was giving the biochem, and everything he always had this clinical significance or medical significance section where he would tell us exactly what condition this causes, the mechanism of that, how to treat it, the relevance, what it does for patients, that kind of thing. And that actually really inspired me to kind of pursue medicine a little more. I'd already started looking into it, of course, a little bit of shadowing, but for me that was kind of the last little push that really wanted me, or that really got me to start preparing and heading for that path.

Andie: It's so awesome, it's like a full circle, and now you're here like still learning from him.

Ryan: Yeah.

Andie: He's an amazing lecturer, um teaches us a lot about embryology, but yeah that's really cool that you've known him for a while now, and he kind of like was part of your pathway. 

[What’s your Favorite Food? - 24:21]

Okay let's start off with another fun question, and we can do the one that Jon and I were talking about yesterday, which is Ryan, if you could eat one food for the rest of your life what would it be?

Ryan: That's not possible, I can't answer that. I have to abstain. Yeah there are too many.

Andie: We were trying to get around it yesterday. We both landed on sushi because like there's variety in sushi. I don’t know.

Jon: Yeah.

Ryan: True, true. Ah let's see if I had to pick one, huh? Yo this is hard, uh sandwiches.

Andie: The hardest question of the day.

Ryan: For the same reason. Exactly.

Jon: Sandwiches? How interesting.

Andie: You say sushi too?

Ryan: Sandwiches.

Andie: Oh, sandwiches.

Ryan: Oh hey close enough, close enough. 

Andie: Yes there's starch, and um protein –

Jon: Meat, vegetables –

Andie: Okay so sandwiches – what's your favorite sandwich place? If it's not the same one as mine, I'll be upset.

Ryan: I don't have one, I actually picked it not because it's my favorite food, but because the versatility, like you mentioned, that really got me. I've never thought about it that way, but I feel like there's so many good sandwiches.

Andie: Yeah so what is a sandwich you like then?

Ryan: What is a sandwich I like? Yeah uh go to Costco, they got these like 10-piece chicken bakes. They're just frozen, yeah 

Andie: Yeah the frozen one?

Ryan: You know they're good, they're good. Not too bad.

Andie: Is that like your normal lunch?

Ryan: I think I might die if I did that. 

Andie: Yeah that might be bad for the uh cholesterol.

Jon: Not gonna lie, they're pretty good though.

Andie: They are very good, yeah. Are they better fresh though or are they better frozen?

Ryan: Problem? Okay listen, I'm a big, I was big on chicken bakes before. The problem is when Covid started, they switched it so they make it out-of-house now. They used to make it in-house.

Andie: Oh.

Ryan: You know with the green onion with the you know chicken caesar, whatever, but now they have this they ship it in frozen, and they make that, and it's just not the same. I don't recommend it anymore.

Andie: Wow, I did not know that. 

Jon: No idea.

[Overcoming challenges - 26:10]

Andie: So getting back to your journey to medical school, which has obviously been very like filled with accomplishments, and just, and you're still 16, let's just remember that, or no, sorry you're 17 now, did you have any like setbacks or challenges along the way, and like if so could you speak about them and then like kind of how you overcame them?

Ryan: Yeah for sure, um as we all did, there were quite a few you know challenges that I ran into. And one of them, I think the biggest one for me, was preparing for the interview because I thought you know, I was a pretty good speaker because of science fair. You know I could practice, I could memorize speech and stuff, but when you think about it it's not really the same. Yeah? It's not really the same. I also had hyperhidrosis, so I think I still do, where you just sweat a lot, and especially for me, when I was nervous in any way like when I was presenting or talking to somebody, like a professor or something I might just start sweating all over my body. And I was like “oh no how am I gonna you know do the interview for that.” But thankfully it was over zoom. Thankfully I also kind of got through that condition, but for me trying to become a good speaker was learning how to be versatile and learning how to flow properly, because before then as I said I just kind of memorized stuff right? And that doesn't go too well, it just comes off as kind of as a canned answer, you know, when they're asking you these pretty important questions, and uh at certain times I felt you know really overwhelmed. I felt like there wasn't time to make the change. I felt like I didn't know what I needed to change, m but thankfully there are a lot of resources that UH has for mock interviews, as well as a lot of questions where you can kind of, not write down and memorize answers, but accommodate yourselves or get used to them and just think about what you might say, and for me the kind of 

whole process ended up going pretty smoothly. And at the end, I feel like I came out a much better speaker.

Andie: That is clearly showing right now, yeah I know this is not like a presentation, or an interview, but yeah and also that's a good resource for everybody who's listening if you have trouble interviewing. And so that being said, we all you know come into medical school kind of having done a lot, but also being overwhelmed at the same time because like just coming in is just so different. I think like being on the other side personally, it feels like kind of overwhelming sometimes, like there's not enough time in the day, or like I have like you know 10 more lectures to watch for tonight. Have you ever like felt like you have some like imposter syndrome or anything like that, especially as somebody who has done it kind of like a straight through pathway?

Ryan: Yeah definitely. I feel like I've definitely struggled with imposter syndrome. Not long term, but momentarily there are times where it's like, “oh man like what am I doing? Is this really the right way to go?” And part of that was in MS1 I think, not because it was especially hard or anything, but because I was just I was coasting. I wasn't really studying too much at the beginning, I was you know just chilling at home relaxing, and I was like “oh no like how am I going to catch up? How am I going to do all this, is this really what a medical student should be doing, right?” And just the expectations were different from how I approached everything. And the way I kind of got around that was, you know, talking with others, finding better study habits, and just overall revising my approach and how I wanted to, you know, just act and work as a medical student. It's different for sure, but I feel like imposter syndrome is a thing where again, a ton of people go through it, as shown by you know surveys and stuff that we've done so far in med school, all the presentations, but definitely just reaching out to other people talking about it is something that helps a lot.

Jon: Oh yeah for sure. I think like for me too, in med school I've had my fair share of imposter syndrome, and just realizing that yeah, everybody else is going through the same thing they're probably struggling just as much as you are and just talking to them about it, seeing how they're getting through it can help me too. And yeah, that's made it a lot easier honestly.

Andie: Yeah, and especially like that you've made like you know tangible changes to I guess like how you're studying, how you're doing stuff, so that you felt a little bit better about what you were doing. Do you mind like sharing some of those? Or like sharing what you found works for you a little bit better now?

Ryan: Out of all of these things, there are two that stand out – the changes i've made – at least one, Pomodoro, there was a presentation on this too just a little bit ago, that we had in class. But Pomodoro is when you kind of have these little segments of time where you're solely focused on working or studying for around the average is 25 minutes, and then you take a quick five minute break where you just quit all that, walk around, do whatever you want. Come back to it for another 25, and that just kind of repeats. And the reason I like that is because it makes it so that you don't get overwhelmed thinking, “oh man I have to finish this assignment.” Instead it's “oh, I'm gonna do one Pomodoro on it,” and then that just kind of goes “oh, I'll do one more, one more, one more.” It kind of breaks it down, makes things more approachable. And I think the second one also relates to that. It was just making a schedule, just write down, I want to do this today, I want to do this today, I have to do this by a certain date. At the beginning, I feel like I was overwhelmed by all the random assignments, due dates, that we had, but that definitely helped a lot.

Andie: Yeah, it's definitely hard to keep track of like all the different things we have, and it's gonna be good for people to hear that because I feel like taking that step to like actually I guess change your learning is pretty hard sometimes. I've found it hard, but then once you make the change, it's like pretty rewarding.

Ryan: Yeah for sure.

[Best Experiences at JABSOM - 32:25]

Andie: Okay uh, I think something that some of the listeners wanted to hear are more stories about like being in JABSOM itself. Like what you think JABSOM has to offer? So we're just wondering if you could tell us about some of the best experiences you've had at JABSOM so far and then kind of like what you're looking forward to most in this year.

Ryan: Mhm. I think my first impression, and a very strong one that's kind of stuck with me is that JABSOM is like a really close-knit place. Everybody, all the students, all the faculty really care about each other, and I really like that feeling, that we're kind of all working towards this goal together. And that I feel like the thing I've enjoyed the most, maybe it's just spending time with you know all my classmates all you guys throughout all the activities that we do throughout the semester, nothing in particular I think, but uh just everything. I've enjoyed that. Is there another part of that question?

Andie: Yeah, yeah. I did that thing that you're not supposed to do as a doctor, and ask two questions at one time. Yeah the second part of that was what are you looking forward to most this year?

Ryan: Hopefully Covid stops getting worse. I believe perhaps the numbers go down, and then we can do more stuff in person. It might be fun.

Jon: Yeah for people that don't know, like yeah, right now for our classes majority of it is um virtual on zoom right now, so most of our PBL sessions and our lectures are all on zoom and then we have like some in-person sessions for like clinical skills and anatomy lab so at least like we get to see our classmates like a couple times throughout the week in persons which is nice, but hopefully once cases start to go down again then we'll be able to get back more in person.

[Outside of the classroom - 34:21]

Andie: Yeah it's been like really hard to just try to do medical school in Covid especially because I feel like it's such a person-to-person thing. It's weird having to do it over the screen. But yeah. Now that you're in medical school like what are you involved in now like are you shadowing what do you do outside of the classroom?

Ryan: Mhm. I try to get involved with stuff when I have time, uh I try to do shadowing. Just yesterday, I did a little bit of that. So interesting timing.

Andie: Where were you?

Ryan: I was over at Queen’s West.

Andie: Following EM?

Ryan: In orthopedic.

Jon: Oh nice.

Andie: Yeah did you get to see a surgery?

Ryan: No, no surgery but I went to clinic, yeah. It was really cool. I like how in orthopedic especially, it's kind of like different patient populations, different cases for each specific hospital on the island, so it's kind of nice to get a little bit of a taste of that. Yeah.

Andie: Yeah, do you have something that you like like more? Because like people like knees more over like hips, or your favorite like joint?

Ryan: Favorite joint? I haven't gotten that far. Everything honestly, everything's cool. It's a silly answer.

Jon: Yeah, but yeah no, I heard people are like really good at like hand things.

Ryan: Good to know.

Andie: Maybe you can like test it out now, because right now we're doing extremities. 

Jon: Yeah.

Andie: Are you the one that's like up there, like doing it?

Ryan: No, not in my group. In my group I have a ton of people who are really just really awesome at dissecting, really into it. And they know the anatomy really well too, so I'm just trying to keep up.

Andie: Yeah did you, so I know you're shadowing is there anything else you're involved in like any clubs, anything that has kind of piqued your interest in medical school that maybe you didn't get to do before?

Ryan: Let's see, I think I haven't done too much like organized extracurricular kind of just for fun stuff throughout college, high school before, and not really too involved in that either now, but I'd be willing to get into it for sure if there's anything interesting that I spot.

[Advice for Pre-meds - 36:45]

Andie: I was just wondering if you had any advice just in general for people who are interested in medicine or pursuing the pathway of like pre-med right now?

Ryan: Yeah, yeah I'll give a couple. I think that I kind of kind of heard and reused myself. It's really hard to get into it at first, because especially because Covid now, yeah? Other offices might not want students coming in. But what I used to do was just when I was interested in something like research or whatever, I just email a ton of people and just hope, you know, cross my fingers hope everything worked out, and just you know finding ways to just get in contact with mentors physicians that you'd like to work with, shadow helps, definitely helps a lot. It also helps you get a feel of the profession if you're trying to learn about that as well. The other thing is definitely come up with a study schedule and a way that you want to approach the MCAT. There are a ton of online resources that I feel help a lot, and don't overwhelm yourself but kind of acquaint yourself with the process, and find a good way you want to study for the exam. 

[MD5 Plans and A Normal Day in the Life of Ryan - 37:50]

Andie: And then you don't have to know, because I don't know, but do you have any idea of what you're gonna do for the summer?

Ryan: This summer? No idea. 

Andie: Yeah okay. 

Ryan: We'll see what happens.

Andie: Yeah.

Jon: Are you hoping to stay here and do something? Or maybe um do something on another island or maybe the mainland?

Ryan: I'd be happy to stay here, but if anything comes up with mainland stuff that would be really cool too. I feel like there's so many you know awesome programs everywhere, um probably end up applying to a handful, and see where I ended up.

Andie: Okay how about just like what's a normal day for you like in the life of a medical student? Like I guess like how kind of do you break up your day into like the work you have to do?

Ryan: The way I like to break up my day is you know, at the beginning of the week, maybe Sunday Monday, I try to assess the stuff I want to do, put that on my schedule, and just kind of assign different things to different days. So what I'd like doing is the day before PBL I'm gonna be doing my, I think this is the most representative, I'm gonna you know, attend lecture in the morning, you know have lunch, if we have clinical skills on Wednesday uh then I'll go to, that that's pretty fun, uh throughout four o'clock. I'll probably get home at five, so that leaves maybe seven hours you know in the rest of the day, and I try to get as many as I can into just doing Pomodoros. Usually I'll try to spend less than an hour on each LI. It doesn't work out too well, but that's the goal, and then doing a little bit of light review maybe watching lectures I didn't watch, and uh reading textbook, a little bit. Yeah so that's how I kind of like to approach today. 

Andie: Yeah it sounds like you're up for a long time, do you like drink a lot of coffee or?

Ryan: I used to drink a lot of coffee, and now I just take naps instead.

Andie: Oh naps are good. I do like naps. 

[Closing- thank you Ryan! - 39:47]

Andie: Okay thanks Ryan, I think that's gonna be the end of it. I think we should ask you one more question though, a fun one and that is if you could be in any kind of like fictional world, since you like you know reading or even movies or TV like what fictional world would you be in and why?

Ryan: That's a really good question. I feel like all the things I like are too like scary. I don't want to go there, you know what I mean. Like let's see there's a manga called Flying Witch where it's a very calm one, uh slice of life as I mentioned. Where everything's pretty much the same, except there are a few uh there's a small subset of witches who do you know supernatural stuff. I wouldn't mind being in that world because it just it looks like a lot of fun. It's not anything scary or dangerous really, just a little bit extra excitement in our daily life. I think that'd be nice.

Andie: Did they, is it like a potion thing or like a spell thing?

Ryan: Yeah it's the latter, it's more of a spell thing.

Andie: So if you can make a spell to make your medical school life easier what would you make?

Ryan: That's a good question. A focus film honestly.

Andie: Hmm like Pomodoro but for your brain.

Ryan: Yeah like, give me six hours let me crank this out, after that i can sleep you know what i mean? That'd be nice.

Andie: Yeah that's awesome. Yeah thanks Ryan for joining us today, we really enjoyed talking to you. Jon and I and the rest of the JABSOM Journeys team just really thought that your story is so inspirational, and just to be honest like everybody who joined this class was so like everybody always talks about like oh there's like you know a wide range of people and like ages and like experiences and to hear that we had like a 16 year old classmate which is so amazing. And so like yeah, we really enjoyed talking to you today.

Ryan: Yeah thank you so much for inviting me, I had a really fun time talking to the two you. You did a really good job with this.

Jon: So thanks for listening to our very first official um podcast for this new season and stay tuned for our next podcast when we welcome Jordan Petersen who had a very exciting announcement during medical school, so stay tuned to find out what it was.

Andie: Very exciting.

Legend: 

JABSOM: John A. Burns School of Medicine

UH: University of Hawai’i

PBL: Problem based learning

[Intro- 00:00]

Jason: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of JABSOM journeys. I'm Jason.

Carly: I'm Carly. And today we are joined with our second guest of our podcast. Jordan Peterson. Jordan, do you mind introducing yourself really quick?

Jordan: Not at all. Hello, I am Jordan Peterson. I'm a first year medical student, classmate to Jason and Carly. And I am from the island of Maui. And I don't really know what else to say about myself.

[Overview of Jordan’s Journey- 00:50]

Jason: Yeah, I mean, so I guess if you can give just an outline, you know of your journey, like you mentioned you were in Maui, and then how did you end up at JABSOM? So just kind of a brief overview. 

Jordan: Right. I think there's probably 57 different cuts of this story. Obviously, the most comprehensive being like the Snider cut, you know, too intricate, but I'll probably try and give, like, the trailer. I went to High School on Maui. I went to Lahainaluna High School. I graduated in 2010, at which point I joined the United States Marine Corps. I left boot camp a couple months- or a couple weeks after graduating. I spent five years in the Marine Corps. And it sent me kind of all around the West Coast United States, a couple different places, eventually getting stationed here on Oahu, Kaneohe Bay. And right around the time that I got stationed there, I also got married. And I was here for two years. And after those two years, my contract expired. I decided to get out and accompany my wife to Southern California where she went to veterinary school at Western University of Health Sciences. And I kind of didn't really have a plan. But I started taking college courses and using my GI Bill. After two years, I transferred to Pomona College in Claremont, California. And my wife and I both graduated in 2019. At which point she did a fellowship year after vet school with the US Army. She was granted the military scholarship for veterinary school, so she commissioned to the US Army right after graduating. She had a fellowship here in Washington, and then she got stationed here on Oahu as well at Pearl Harbor Hickam, Joint Base Pearl Harbor Hickam. So between the two of us who were both in the military, we both got stationed here in Hawaii, and that is what has brought us both to Oahu, but that actually somehow has nothing to do with the fact that I enlisted in the military, from Maui. But what really brings me here is I've spent a lot of time in Hawaii between those three different things. And, you know, from a- I guess, an outside perspective, I'm currently a military spouse accompanying my active duty wife at her duty location, and it just so happens to be on the same exact island of the exact medical school that I want to go to. So really, it's just an extremely fortunate circumstance that really has been my favorite.

Jason: Yeah, that's awesome. So did you consider going to other medical schools or just JABSOM, and if not, JABSOM, then like, apply again, basically.

Jordan: Um, so I originally decided to apply in the cycle that I did, because of COVID. I knew that I still had a couple of different obstacles that I had to go through, classes I had to take, the MCAT, I really wanted to beef up my resume before finding medical school because my intent was to apply broadly. But something just kind of clicked one day on like day, it was retrospectively very early on in COVID. But it was sometime in June. So it felt like COVID been going on forever. So I was like, wow, I just have a lot of free time. And I should be using that to just prepare. So I decided to apply essentially a year ahead of when I was originally planning to apply to medical school. And I knew that part of that was going to be me being in Hawaii and my wife is also going to be there as well. So, yeah, essentially, my original plan was just to apply to JABSOM.

Because, you know, I knew applying that year, like for instance, if I was applying this upcoming cycle and starting this upcoming year, then I would, you know, potentially- like my wife is on her last year technically being stationed in Hawaii before she potentially extends her contract. So we might have spent minimal time apart, but kind of planning to do something ambitious, like a four year long graduate school program. It's really tough when you're also a military spouse. So yeah, I guess long story short, my original plan was yes to only apply to JABSOM because it was the only chance that I would be able to go to medical school and not have to be away from my wife, um, I ended up applying to a couple other schools just because, you know, I didn't want to apply and, you know, JABSOM completely rejected me, then, you know, I'd be up a creek essentially. And I would have wrote this great personal statement that I put a lot of heart into, and then just like, only one school saw it, they didn't like it and I just had to move on. So I did apply, I guess, more broadly than I originally intended to, but I think I only completed full applications for about, like five schools, maybe, exclusively on the West Coast, Southern California area, JABSOM. And then I think one or two medical schools that were also near military bases that she has the potential to get stationed at if that makes sense. So it was a lot of- like I said, it really narrows down a lot of possibilities when you're considering, like the military spouse aspect as well.

[Thoughts on taking gap years- 06:27]

Carly: I know a lot of people- they take gap years. You took how many, four? Was it four gap years Jordan?

Jordan: So I mean obviously, the years that I spent between high school and college was five, five years of, you know, just being in the military, but after graduating, I took two gap years. So I graduated in 2019. And then I- yeah, essentially took two gap years. It's kind of weird. The academic school year that I started. Yeah, 2021, 2020 Yep. 2021. So yeah, two gap years.

Carly: Well there’s a lot of pre meds who might be scared of taking that gap year, they think they have to apply right away, or are even afraid to start medical school at a later age. Can you maybe speak more on that and what you did in your gap, your advice you have for those pre meds?

Jordan: Yeah first thing I want to say is, I can't remember where I saw it. But some, some tidbit of knowledge, basically, like, in four years, you're either going to- like, in four years, you're going to be four years older regardless, you might as well be four years closer to doing what it is you want to do. It's really easy to, as an older student, think like, oh, you know, I'm older,  I don't want to be graduating medical school, like, I think I'll graduate medical school, I'll be like 32, or 33. And for a lot of people that might be thinking, Man, I don't want to graduate medical school at 32 geez, and then what residency at like 36, 37, something like that. But someday, you're going to be 37 regardless. And if you keep putting off the things that you want to do, you're going to be 37 and not completing residency, you're going to be 37, and maybe just starting medical school, because you postponed it longer than you originally really needed to, or you know, doing something completely different. And, you know, sometimes medicine isn't the right choice for everyone but I think if it's the right choice for you, that's something that you kind of know, right? And if that's something you want to do, you kinda just got to get out there and do it.

I think for taking gap years, I think it's really good. I know when I was finishing undergrad, the thought of doing more school was just exhausting to me. Same thing with high school. That’s part of the reason why I joined the military is because I was finishing high school. It's like, I cannot imagine doing more school, I'm sick of school. But then when I joined, they kind of just sent me back to do more schooling. So I did more school and then I got out and it’d been so long since I'd been in school I wanted to go back to school. And then I did, I did four years of college and right after undergrad I thought wow, I do not want to do another day of school I'm so sick of school. But I've really realized over the years that I actually really enjoy school and love learning and you know if that's you, if you can see yourself getting back in and doing another four years of medical school and then however many years residency then you know, great if you don't have to take those gap years, that's fine, but there's definitely- I think there's definitely something to be said about like kind of recharging your batteries and making yourself want it more I guess because like yeah, the idea of going to medical school right after undergrad for me was tough, I really wanted that time.

But I think a lot of people also believe you're going to be behind the power curve. If you take those gap years and I think there's also- and this, I guess might be controversial, there might be this conception that if you're taking a gap year, you have to make the most of it, like you’ve got to be doing research, you have to be doing, like, you’ve got to be beefing up that resume. Um, I'll be totally honest, in my gap years, the two of them that I took, I mostly like, played video games, I just relaxed. I was a military spouse. I was not beefing up my resume.  I moved to Washington for a year, and I took up kayak fishing. I played a lot of video games, I hung out, I got a job that didn't really have a whole lot to do with anything other than just making some money. And, you know, that's fine. You don't really have to like- the misconception that you have to have an extremely productive gap year. I think, maybe for some schools. 

I know JABSOM didn't ask me about my gap years, when I talked about it in my interview. They didn't say like, “what are you doing that was so important that you had to take time off school,” like, I think it's reasonable to be thinking that they might be thinking that, but it's just it wasn't the reality of my situation, like my gap year was just to, you know, kind of readjust to where life was taking me. It took me to Washington for a year, and then it took me here, if I had applied directly out of- right after undergrad, then you know, I wouldn't have known where to apply because I didn't know where my wife was going. She was going to be stationed somewhere for a year and then somewhere else for three years. And you know, so I just took it in stride. And I think, yeah, basically, if you're thinking about doing a gap year, you know, there's really nothing wrong with it, you should probably just go for it. Because you're not going to be behind the power curve. Once you set foot day one in medical school, no one is ahead of anyone else. Like everyone's there in the exact same boat. Whether you're 32 years old, you're 22 years old, or however old you are, or what you've done for the past three years, four years, two months, it doesn't matter, you start day one in med school, pretty much everyone's on the exact same foot. So definitely no reason not to take the break or time that you need for yourself.

[Why medicine?- 12:30]

Jason: Yeah, that's awesome advice man. I think a lot of people would definitely be really happy to see that. You know, there's a lot of like anxiety about kind of going as fast as possible. But yeah, no, that's great. Yeah. So you talked a lot about your overall journey and stuff. But like, what was it that actually sparked your interest in medicine in the first place? Was it something you always thought you wanted to do, or did that come about later?

Jordan: Oh, that's a good question. The dreaded, dreaded question.

Jason: Sorry I don’t want to make this like another interview

Jordan: No, no, not at all, not at all. You know, I think the truth of the matter is everyone wants to have an extremely awesome, profound answer to that question. Sometimes the answer isn’t so glamorous, I guess I view mine as one a lot less glamourous. So I see, like, I've read personal statements of people that are like, I perform CPR on a man and I realized, like, wow, this is crazy, I want to do this, or, you know, stuff like that. Um, for me, I was an only child to a single mother, who worked her fingers to the bone basically, to put a roof over our head. And, you know, she spent some time doing like, finance stuff, but she wasn't really passionate about it, she ended up transitioning, and being a waitress. So she waited tables, and did other hospitality related stuff. We were on Maui. And, you know, I just, I will say in high school, I never would have thought myself the type of person that could go to medical school, not even for a moment, I would have thought the notion to be completely laughable. I just assumed that, you know, people that become doctors are people that come from doctors, doctors make more doctors.

Me, you know, I thought that I was just going to be I, you know, It's hard and looking back. I don't know really what it is I thought that I would do but I definitely didn't have any type of academic ambitions. I didn't consider myself a person that was interested in science, or academia or learning or really anything. That's why I joined the military in the first place. And then, while I was in the military, I basically started to see that maybe I could be a good learner, I guess.

So just to clarify when I was in the military, my job, I was a Chinese linguist. So I worked in military intelligence, and I learned Chinese. And everyone kept saying like, wow, that's really like, that's hard. That's tough to do, you must be a good student. And I was like, I don't identify with the terms good student at all. Like, that's not something I really saw for myself.

Jason: Wait sorry so I’m just curious how did you end up doing that. Like, how do you end up being a Chinese linguist.

Jordan: So I originally wanted to join the Marine Corps. And I took the ASVAB, the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery, which basically spits out a score and tells you what you're capable of doing, the higher your score is, the more options you have, is the idea behind it. So I took the test, and I did well. And I told my recruiter that I wanted to do infantry, because when I thought of the Marine Corps, that's what I thought of, I just thought of, you know, people that shoot guns and go do infantry things. But he was very adamant about not letting me be infantry, basically, because, you know, he signs up- I guess, the notion behind military recruiting, it's this whole, infrastructure, but basically, infantry slots are a dime a dozen, and getting someone to sign up for a slot, a spot for something like, let's say, cryptologic linguist, which was my job title, is, I guess, more coveted, more hard to come by. So when he signs up someone to do that, it's more like, Oh, look at me, I'm a good recruiter. So he did it in his own self interest. I did not want to be a cryptologic linguist. But he pushed and prodded. And eventually I was like, I just want to go to boot camp and become a Marine. So I'll pretty much do whatever it is. He's like, Alright, cool. So he sent me off to do that. And then with the Marine Corps, he signed me up to be a linguist, they make you take a different test called the DLAB, the Defense Language Aptitude Battery, which is like, basically a logic puzzle test that somehow assesses your theoretical ability to learn a language, and I did well enough on that. And it's kind of the same with the ASVAB. If you do well, then they assign you the more difficult languages. And if you do poorly them, they'll assign you the easier languages. So I did decently well on that. So they assigned me one of the harder languages, and then they just- of those languages, they had a spot available in Chinese when I arrived at the base, and they said, Alright, you're going to go learn Chinese. So I definitely didn't have a say in the matter. But, um, yeah, so I went, and I did that, I learned Chinese because that was my job. That was what I was being tasked to do. And I realized, Oh, I'm not so bad at this learning thing. And like, I could be a decent student, if I just kind of find out what works for me.

And then, once I got out of the military, I was in my first year of college, and I was having this like, profound crisis of identity of like, what am I doing, I left the only job that I have ever really had, and it was really stable. And I left it because I didn't like it. Like I left the military because I didn't enjoy it. But it was stable. And it was, you know, kind of simple. And now I'm like, trying to create my own path. And I don't know what I'm doing. 

So sorry. To recap, the question was, why medicine? And I was having this crisis of identity. What am I doing with my life? I'm in my first year of college, I'm taking these random classes. Am I being inspired by any of these? I don't really know where I'm going. And I remember thinking, like, what did I want to do when I was younger? When I was little, like, maybe start there. And I was thinking about it I thought, wow, when I was really little, I really, really wanted to do CSI. I loved watching CSI with my mom. And I just really wanted to do like crime scene investigation. I was like, oh, maybe, maybe something like that. So I remember, I was looking into that. I was like, wow, there's really not a lot of job prospects in CSI. Basically everyone has the same story. Well, I love watching CSI so I really want to do that. But then I learned about forensic pathology, and medical examiners and like, basically a way to do forensics, but at this extremely high level, and it's like people that do forensic pathology are doctors and I was like, Oh, well, crap. Like, I can't do that. I'd have to be a doctor and like, I couldn't possibly do that. 

But then I took a step back. I remember- I don't remember like the date, but I remember the day I was sitting at my computer, and I was watching this video and like, dang, like, that would have been cool, but like there's no way I could do that. And then I took a step back and realized my wife was actively doing just that. So she was in veterinary school. And I guess for the uninitiated, I don't know, veterinary school is, like, multitudes, orders of magnitude more difficult to get into than medical school. There's like, I think 12 or something, veterinary schools in like the whole country, and like, everyone has the same story, I want to be a vet, I love animals. And like, the ways that you have to distinguish yourself to get into veterinary school, from like, a common applicant is just, it's unbelievable. We're talking like 1000s upon 1000s of animal care hours, and all this kind of stuff. And you know, my wife has a similar background to me, she is a first-generation college student like myself. And you know, here she was a first-generation college student in veterinary school, living her absolute dream, the thing that she wanted to do since she was five years old. And she never even thought twice about it. She just like- that's what she was going to do. From the day I met her, I knew that she wanted to be a veterinarian, and the path really never faltered from there. And I thought, wow, here she is in vet school, like making it happen? Not listening to any of the, you know, statistically, it's unlikely that I could do or like, she wasn't listening to anything else. She had that tunnel vision to get into vet school and do her thing. And she did it. And that was the moment that I realized, whoa, if I really wanted to, I probably could be a doctor. Because before that day, it was in 2016. I was like, 24 years old. Am I doing that? Right? Yeah, 24 years old, 23, 24 years old. This is one of the first times that I realized, if I- basically, if I could dream to do it. Like, it's the first time I really thought, Whoa, I could be a medical doctor, I could go to medical school. And I think it was that combined with like, I saw this really interesting job. And this cool way that I could apply medicine, and thought, Whoa, if I could just get there, even if I don't become a forensic pathologist, but to become a doctor. It's like this crazy, long, intricate path, but it would really be quite the accomplishment. So you know, I guess, part of me wishes that I could be like, Oh, my pediatrician growing up is really great. And I knew that I wanted to practice medicine, or I had this profound medical experience. But really, it was just like, realizing that, to become a physician was a lot of work. And it was a lot of work to, you know, be proud of, and something like, objectively good. And, yeah, that's kind of really what it came down to, thinking, believing that I could do it. And wanting that challenge. Hopefully that answers the question well, I know, it's not like the most beautifully worded answer.

[Impending fatherhood- 23:12]

Carly: No, definitely. Thank you for sharing that. It sounds like your wife is a huge part of your journey. So speaking of your wife, and your future, a lot of people coming into medical school, they might have kids already, but you're kind of a special case in that you found out you're going to be a father in your first year. So congratulations again on that. But how have things been balancing school and kind of gearing up to be a father?

Jordan: Oh, things have been well. You know, no matter how you slice it, it's been a net positive, there have been days that have been very stressful, and anxiety inducing. But I mean, that's going to happen to any future parent, you know, it doesn't matter if you're in your first year of medical school or not, obviously, being in medical school, and the time commitment and the stress that comes with that kind of exacerbates things, but it's definitely not something that's unmanageable, I guess I should say. Family planning is tough, especially at this stage in our lives that my wife and I are at.  Like we were, I guess when you observe our similar age peer groups, you might say we’re on like the later end of my or reproductive years. I know that like maybe that's insensitive to say, but, um, you know, we're not like in our early 20s, so we either had to have had the kids already, or have them during medical school or the other option would be like, Oh, wait till medical school is done, and then have the kids but I think any physician you talk to, no matter who it is, is going to tell you that having kids in medical school is going to be easier than having kids in residency because residency is a whole other beast. So, yeah, it's tough, because there's a lot on the horizon. And it's scary. But I think it's probably the best time for us. For context, I found out that my wife is pregnant on day two of orientation. So I had like, one day of like, alright, medical school, this new journey, and then it's like, alright, medical school and parenthood. Yeah, it's definitely doable. I also think like, JABSOM’s curriculum is pretty flexible in the grand scheme of things, I have other friends that are also first years at other medical schools. And, you know, there's a lot of stuff that you can read online. And I think in the grand scheme of things I have quite a bit of, I don't want to say free time, but I do have the capability of handling a lot of other responsibilities. Obviously, it requires my wife to be even more of a team player than I can be right. She has, you know, all the things that she's going through with being pregnant, as well as she takes on a lot of responsibility for the two of us, because she's been in my position in a graduate medical program. So she knows what I'm going through, she has a lot of empathy for me. And really, that's what makes her like, the best teammate. So I think trying to do it alone would be very difficult, but having a good teammate is, is everything.

Jason: Yeah, that’s really nice to hear. So I mean, you did briefly touch on the curriculum and JABSOM. So as of now we've kind of bounced back and forth between being remote and being in person. So I guess how have you found that split? Like, is there kind of- do you like having the option to do both? Would you prefer all in person? Would you prefer all remote? Like how have you found that in your experience?

Jordan: I think there's definitely some benefit- there's benefits to both. Remote gives me a flexibility. That is honestly a huge relief to me. I mean, the child is not even born yet. But I'm sure once the child is born, I'm going to be really appreciative of the fact that I can do things remotely because I mean, childcare is difficult to come by, and expensive. And also scary, you know, trusting other people with your child, I'd love to just be the only person between my wife and myself to care for our child. So yeah, I enjoy the ability to do things remotely, I think it's a huge benefit. If there's one positive to take out of COVID I think realizing how we can function remotely is definitely one of them.

[Thoughts on the MCAT- 28:11]

Carly: I agree I actually like the remote learning as well, just because there are a lot of people who live far from JABSOM too so just giving them that chance is good. I think we have to kind of go back to academics because the MCAT is a huge thing. When applying for- it's a big stressor, I feel for a lot of pre meds. So can you tell us like did you just take it one time? How were your studying habits and like how did you feel about that overall process?

Jordan: Oh, okay. So I will be as open book as I can about my MCAT journey, but I think it all has to be taken with a grain of salt everyone has to know. So I'll start with outline. I started studying for the MCAT in June 2020. And I took the MCAT September 27 of 2020. So, it was about three months, I gave myself three months and a day or two to study for the MCAT. For context, when I decided to sign up for the MCAT I had not taken the required- so I had not taken physics, O-chem, or biochem when I decided to start studying for the MCAT. My degree from Pomona College was in neuroscience, so I had had exposure to biochemical concepts. But I had never really taken those classes. Same as physics and O-chem, so I’d never taken those.

I started my studying for the MCAT with content review slash content learning for the first time. I watched basically every single Khan Academy video that was available, I wish I could be more helpful because I know that I think Khan Academy's removed their MCAT stuff now, which is a total bummer. I don't know if it's successful or not. I know I kept getting notifications when I was studying like Khan Academy is removing this and I was like, Oh my gosh, I don't even know what I'd be doing if they're moving this because it's free. And it's so helpful. So at the time, I watched every single Khan Academy video on like, every single concept, basically all day every day.

And I think a huge part- this is all like, again, I was saying take this with a grain of salt. Because I don't- I would not recommend this strategy for most people. Because one, I was a military spouse. So my wife was putting a roof over my head, food in my belly. And she took care of an unbelievable amount of stuff in order to help me. Like, I was able to focus on nothing. But studying for the MCAT for three whole months, like I was cut off from everything, like I barely walked the dog. She cooked food, ordered food, she organized- like the whole time this was happening we were moving from Washington to Hawaii. She organized everything, she did so much work so that there was nothing on my plate except for the MCAT. So I think that's a very atypical situation that might not help a lot of people. But if you have the capability of doing that, if you can, like alleviate yourself of responsibilities somehow.  I know not everyone is capable of that. But I guess it's more of a testament to the possibility or like to the idea that it is possible. Right? So I would watch Khan Academy videos all day, every day for hours for probably like a month and a half. At some point in there. I started using anki for the first time. There are a couple of different MCAT studying anki decks that I found on Reddit. And I was using those and I also went on this MCAT subreddit all the time. There's a lot of good, helpful, useful tips there. Like some study guides, and some people were mentioning this app called UWorld. So I got UWorld, that was extremely helpful.

And then I think in like the last six weeks of MCAT prep, six- four to six weeks, I was doing full length practice tests at like, real time. Like in real time I guess I don't know how best to describe but I didn't put on practice mode or anything like that I was taking full length practice tests timed and everything. So I'd have to say that- this was during COVID. So it was only the like, shortened to six and a half hours instead of eight or something like that. But they took out your break. So there was like 10 less questions per section, something like that. But I would set aside a time, like on the weekends- that was the other thing is like, I didn't have weekends or anything. This is like, every single day I was studying. And- but I would take- usually on the weekends, I'd take that practice test, and then I get a feel for my score. And yeah, I think in the last two weeks, I kind of burned out, which I kind of expected was going to happen. I didn't end up taking all four of the practice exams that I had planned on taking. I only took like two. I think part of it was like, My score was trending down. And I was like, oh, maybe I'm burning out. So last two weeks, I just took completely off. I played video games, I hung out with my friends. I went to the beach. I went outside. I was like, if I don't know it by now, I don't know it. And that's kind of the way I did it. I think. Um, do you want me to tell my score? Does it matter?

Jason: Oh totally up to you

Jordan:  Oh, I don't mind. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I got a 512. So I think that's like the average for JABSOM. Depending on the year, I think the year I was applying that was like the average for that. Yeah, I think it was like the exact average score, which I was fine with. I mean, given all the circumstances, I kind of expected a slightly lower score than I was hoping for obviously. I mean, everyone wants a 520. But that's not really realistic, I guess. So yeah, I think given everything. That was my score, not the best studying schedule, or habits, but I think it was a testament to the possibilities, right? If you do everything the same, but you already learned biochem and physics, and O-chem and you give yourself a little bit more time, then you should realistically be able to score that or better. I think the biggest thing with the MCAT though, is- I don't want to say it's like 90% mental because like obviously, there's a lot that you have to know. But a huge part of it is just having the mental fortitude to stick around. And like, give 100% for six and a half to eight hours depending on if it's COVID test or not. A huge part of my studying journey was psyching myself up lying to myself being like, I'm gonna get a frickin 522 Like, I was like, that's a reasonable score, like, I won’t get a 528 but I'm gonna get like 522 just lying to myself. I know that sounds totally asinine. But I just psyched myself up. I was like, if I just have a positive attitude, and not like down and dumpy about it. I know that that's gonna, help me out in the long run. So I was like, I got this. I got this. I got this. And yeah, it definitely plays a big part in it. Because it's definitely a test of stamina and willpower. Because the test is long, doesn't matter how you slice it, you can cut off 10 questions per section, but it's still an exhaustively long test.

Jason: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can attest to- I took a few days break before actually taking it just because of the burnout and everything. And I do think that kind of help. In the-

Jordan: Yeah definitely

Jason: Oh, yeah, sorry. Yeah. And I think anyone can attest to, you know, the application process is really long. It's really difficult. But now they're finally here at JABSOM. Like how would you say it compares your expectations?

Jordan: I would say that, probably, to be honest, the most stressful part of my whole journey- And I was just reflecting on this the other day, actually, I think like yesterday, the most stressful part of my entire medical school journey was that MCAT studying part. Like, I mean, I definitely bit off more than I should have with like, taking it as soon as I did before I took those other classes and like, giving myself a few months, but I mean, I just remember being so stressed. It's like, I need every last point that I can get, you know, I need to make sure that I get every possible question right because like, every point matters so much. And like the difference between having a 512 and a 511 or a 510. Like, how many points can I drop on my score before it really starts to make a difference? I don't know. What's the admissions committee thinking of? Just so much uncertainty with the application process, and so much trying to be optimistic, but then it's like, oh, I don't know. You know, like, you just- you go through those highs and lows. Um, and yeah, I think uncertainty would be like the word most associated with all of that. And then, you know, obviously, at some point getting in, just like that huge sense of relief, but then like, Oh, crap, now I gotta do all of medical school, it's gonna be so hard, like the MCAT is just to get in. But honestly, I think studying for the MCAT was a lot more difficult, because there was just like, this expectation to know a lot of stuff that I didn't know. And I was trying to teach myself in a very short amount of time, my time in JABSOM, thus far has been, I think, a lot less stressful, because I at least know what's expected of me. It's like, pretty clearly outlined, and I just have more time available. And I think also a lot of being at JABSOM in the way we do PBL. And it's a lot of teaching yourself. And, you know, I never would have thought that I can teach myself, O-chem and physics. And I kind of, you know, didn't- I took like a big L on the chem phys section. But, you know, I at least convinced- I still, like was attentive and did my best to learn it. And I think that definitely set me up for success at JABSOM, because, you know, you gotta kind of learn how to be a self directed learner. Gotta learn how to, like, have the fortitude to go the extra mile and learn the thing, because no one's gonna make you do it. You got to kind of want to do it on your own, I guess. So yeah, I guess all in all, my time here at JABSOM is much less stressful than I'd expected. Just because the acute stress of taking the MCAT and applying and all that was just so much. And, you know, JABSOM was not as high intensity as that.

[Standing out as an applicant- 40:03]

Carly: Yeah, the application process is definitely stressful. I think one of the biggest stresses for me applying was like, wow, how am I going to stand out? Because I feel like every pre med does, like maybe some volunteering, shadowing, research, all that stuff. So when you were doing your application- or what do you think when JABSOM reviewed your application made you stand out in comparison to, I don't know, other pre meds maybe?

Jordan: Oh, that's a good question. I think standing out really is kind of one of the most important things. I definitely felt like that was one of the things that I had going for me personally. Because, you know, being a veteran, and, you know, not only that, but also being from a neighboring island. I didn't realize this, but like, there's not a lot of people applying from neighboring islands compared to Oahu. But being from a neighboring island, and being a veteran. And on top of that, like I'm Hispanic, for instance. So I mean, that was on my application. It's on all the things that I do, obviously, I look and sound white. But yeah, I think being Hispanic definitely sets me apart. There's not a huge Hispanic presence, I would say, really, in Hawaii in general. So yeah, I think demographically, there was a lot that set me apart. I know, in my experience, I've heard from a lot of people that, you know, schools love that life experience type stuff you get from being in the military. And I suppose that is true to an extent, I don't really recall how much I really talked about that in my interviews or anything like that. But yeah, I guess it kind of goes back to like the gap year stuff that we're talking about.

It seems that admissions committees find value in lived experiences outside of just being a student, or just being a pre med. And it doesn't have to be research. It could just be something you're passionate about, you know, taking a gap year doing something that's important to you. I think that's a great thing to talk about, especially in the JABSOM application. There's a section to talk about- in the work and activities, you can just talk about something that's meaningful to you. So for me, I talked about spearfishing. When I was here before in 2013, to 2015, I took up spearfishing, because I'd always wanted to do it, but my mom wouldn’t let me buy a spear gun when I was young. I was like, I’m old, I can buy a spear gun. So I took up spearfishing and like learning about that and sustainability. And I thought it was just like the coolest activity ever. And I remember coming back and being like, Ah, I'm so excited to spearfish again. And I remember talking about that application process. 

I hope I'm answering the question. Yeah, what helps you stand out. I think having things that you're passionate about, even if they're not related to medicine. Yeah, so I suppose the generalized advice would be to have those things that you're actually passionate about, and talk about those because, you know, everyone's heard the story about the clinical shadowing, and, you know, you saw someone, do CPR, and it was meaningful, or things like that, you know, everyone is going to say the most important thing, or the most meaningful thing to try and like get that foot in the door. But having the ability to just like, be confident and talking about the things that actually really matter to you, I think is huge. Because especially like at JABSOM interviews, we talked very little about, like, medicine, it's more just about like, Who are you as a person? Like why do you want to come to JABSOM specifically as opposed to other schools. That speaks more to like, how do you want to serve the population of Hawaii as opposed to like, other areas? Right. So, yeah.

[Final words of wisdom- 44:25]

Jason: Alright, so I think we're starting to come to a close here. So do you have any last advice you want to share? I know, I mean, you've talked about a lot of different things, but is there anything burning? If not, then that's fine. And we can close, but anything else you wanted to say?

Jordan: Ah, pieces of advice. I think he's kind of just echoing something I mentioned before. Like, I think what someone's really going to get out of everything that I'm saying is like, you can be an older, pre med, or a veteran or something like that. Cuz I think that those are probably the people that are listening to this and being like, Oh, that's me and resonating with it in some way. Um, you know, don't, I guess the advice would be kinda like I was saying before, don't put it off, just because you think, you know, oh, your, your experience isn't meaningful, or you don't want to be too old, you want to graduate medical school at 30-something like some people that graduated in their 20s, I don't want to be- like you're gonna get older, no matter what. And, also, your experiences that you've had are unique to you. So use your age and your experiences, to your advantage. I guess, you know, there's a lot to be said about living life outside of school, and being a pre med. So use your age to an advantage and, you know, especially for veterans, I don't think there are enough people that are veterans that are applying to medical school that they probably very reasonably could, especially if you didn't, like do medicine while you're in, you think oh, like, like me, like what I did in military has nothing to do with medicine. And I saw a lot of people that were military applicants that were like, Oh, I was a medic. So like, naturally, this is the next step. You know, I have 1000s clinic hours blah blah blah, and I compared myself a lot to them. I was like, Yes, I'm a military applicant. But like, what happens when that combat medic comes through the door? And they're applying, they're not gonna pick me over combat medic. Are you kidding me? Like, I didn't do anything medical related until very recently. But it doesn't matter. Because I think medical schools care about you as a person. And even if you did decide early on that you wanted to do medicine, or be a medic in the military. Like it just- it doesn't matter. What matters is your desire right here right now. And to be able to show that you've taken what you've learned in the past and you can grow from it.

Jason: Alright, yeah. Great advice to close on. Thanks so much for coming on. I always appreciate your perspective on everything. Yeah. Appreciate it.

Carly: Yes. Thank you so much, Jordan

Jordan: Of course. Thanks for having me.

Jason: All right, so that'll wrap up our second episode of JABSOM Journeys. Be sure to tune in next time when we're talking to Derek Larson.

Carly: Bye!

Legend: 

JABSOM: John A. Burns School of Medicine

UH: University of Hawai’i

PBL: Problem based learning

[Intro- 00:00]

Jason: Hey everyone, welcome in to another episode of JABSOM journeys. I'm Jason, and I'm joined by my co-host, Andie, and we have a wonderful guest today, Derek, if you want to introduce yourself.

Derek: Oh hey. Hello, everyone. Derek. Just a small town boy from the Big Island. Born and raised in South Kona and the Boone Boone lands. Graduated from Konawaena high school, went to college in New York, graduated and chose to go to medical school here at my home Hawaii. Super stoked to be here, guys. Thank you so much.

Andie: Yeah, wow. Yeah, no. I’m Andie and I met Derek probably the first week, he was probably one of the first people I met. And I just know that when I sat down with him, we were just in the cafe, and his story was just so interesting. And we really thought that

you guys should be able to hear it. Because it was just so- yeah, it was like, instantly, transported into like, oh, wow, this is so cool. Oh, yeah. Very good story.

But yeah, so we're probably gonna open with like a- we’re gonna ask you a fun question first. Okay. Yeah. Very, very- spent a lot of time preparing this question. Okay.

Derek: Okay.

Jason: So, Derek, what is your go to karaoke song?

Derek: Oh, gosh, um, yes. It's Green Day, like, wake me up when September ends, you know. Oh, yeah, that one? Yeah. I just like to channel the angst sometimes. Yeah. And like, I need to reconnect with those angsty teenager days. Sometimes. I often default to those kinds of songs. Yeah.

Jason: Yeah. Cool. What about you, Andie?

Andie: Um, oh, no, I don't know. This. I also don't know if it's I like to- this is embarrassing. I would say like any Shaggy song. You know?

Jason: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I know.

Andie: You kind of like don't have to actually be good at singing. Like, he's talking. You know, it's like, yeah, yeah. What about you?

Jason: Uh, Mr. Brightside? East coast school, You know, a lot of- yeah, have you-

Andie: Did you go to the east coast for college, Jason?

Jason: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Massachusetts, if you couldn't tell? Yeah.

Andie: Oh, my gosh, it's very appropriate. Very on brand.

[Why Medicine?- 2:57]

Jason: Alright. Good stuff. So, um, let's just kind of get into the interview a little bit. So first question naturally is, you know, what first drew you into medicine? Like, when did you first kind of consider it as a career?

Derek: Yeah, that's a- yeah, what a beautiful question, honestly, you know, it's like, it's so multifaceted. It's never just one thing, you know, but there's definitely moments in your life that kind of reconfirm, hey, this is like, something I really want to do, you know. And for me, so I was in high school, I think it was 16 or 17. At the time, you know. And when- my cousin, he was his mid 20s or so, he had just come back from New York, from a rehab program, you know, and he came back, he back home to Hawaii, because he was kind of down and out, you know, he was not living well, there. He was- he got into heroin. I remember, I just got my license. That time, I picked him up from the airport, and here's my cousin, you know, and I grew up with this guy, and who he was, in that moment was just so different than I've ever seen him before. He was just so thin, emaciated, and like, almost in a way, he just kind of lost his soul. He didn't seem the same. You know, I think, a huge part of that was attributed to, to heroin, you know, and I was taking him to the doctor's office to- with an addiction psychiatrist, taking him to NA and AA meetings. And over time, I started to see him change, you know, and I think a big part of that was the physician he was going to, you know, he talked to me, sometimes we would drive, you know, drive him to his appointments and stuff. And say, Derek, this doctor is changing my life. You know, he's making me look at myself and what addiction is in a totally different light. You know, I'm not- I don't feel like this horrible stigma attached to me. You know, I just feel like just a patient, just someone who has a problem, but with the help I can get through it, you know, and I thought about what that physician did for him, but also what he did for my entire family, too. You know, now, my cousin, he's doing great now, he's working a good job. He's like, he's looking good, and so much of that is attributed to those early steps he took with it with that physician, and here I am looking at it from an observers view of the impact a physician can make on somebody, you know, on my cousin, but also indirectly, you know, the everyone connected to that person, his mother, my grandma, like my other cousins too. And you know, we all care so much about my cousin. And now we see him in this beautiful state, he's grown and he's better. And that’s just remarkable, and so much of that has to do with the physician he met. And after I saw that, I said, hey, this is something I feel like I want to do. I wish I could make an impact like that. On someone else's life.

[Adjusting to life on Oahu- 5:47]

Jason: So I'm actually just kind of jumping back to the beginning. So growing up, did you spend much time on Oahu or mostly just on the Big Island?

Derek: So I've only been, I think, to Oahu, like three or four times in my life before going to JABSOM so usually I would come to like go to the waterpark sometimes to be like a family outing. Like whoa, wait, I get here like, Oahu is crazy, there's like more than two roads, you know, multi lanes, I’m like eh. I can never see myself on Oahu. This is too crazy, city life, you know. But yeah, so I had no idea what Oahu is about. I'm still figuring it out today.

Andie: But maybe for people who are thinking about coming to JABSOM from especially our neighbor islands. Like what do you think was, kind of, shocking to you? Or like, what do you like about Oahu? What do you like about being here? Or like, do you hate it? Are you like get me back out?

Derek: I love it. Okay, so like, there's definitely some- I'll start with like, the bad first, you know, to get out of the way, right? But okay, first of all, it's kind of loud here. You know. And granted, I like live right next to Chinatown. So I'm hearing like cheehoos at night that are super loud, or like ambulances and sirens. And that, you know, that can be kind of disturbing for someone who grew up in the boonies, right, we're just like- at night, it's actually dark, there's no city lights, it's quiet, you know, and so that's hard to adjust to, just that baseline what your environment is like, the beauty in Oahu though, is like it's a vibrant place, it's filled with energy, there's people everywhere doing a bunch of different things. And like, educationally, there's so many opportunities, you know, you have UH Manoa is a huge campus, there's so much going on, JABSOM, it's just like- it's just stimulating. And on the Big Island, you simply don't have that, you know, we have community colleges around the island, you- we have UH Hilo too, but it's simply not the same magnitude, you know, and people too, it's just like, a lot of it's just commuter based over there as well. And so you don't get this congregation of people that you're constantly working with. So, you know, in essence, I think Oahu for a young person is awesome. You know, it's like, there's so much to do, but I can see myself when I'm getting older, and I want to kind of kick it back a little bit. Going to these, you know, going back to the big island would be great place. Great place to go. But yeah, Oahu. I think it's awesome. And honestly, like the food options, let's be real, there's like, hundreds of restaurants, like, Kona side? Yeah, I think they're- I could think of like, 20 to 30, decent restaurants, but I look up my door. There's like 100, you know, whoa, you know, the food. The food on Oahu is far superior to other big islands.

[High school and college- 8:30]

Jason: For sure. Yeah, so you grew up on the Big Island, you’re here on Oahu for medical school. So where did your college experience lie on that spectrum?

Derek: Yeah, so I guess, you know, starting, like my first exposure, I actually went to- I did this program called Running Start, where you can take community college classes while you're in high school. So I actually started my junior year. I just took one class, it was like astronomy, something, you know, something minor, something like that. But you know, instantly I was- well, college, college is pretty sweet. And, yeah, I was going to Konawaena High School at the time. And, you know, I think it's a great school, but it can be tough, just like, not all the students have the same way priorities as you sometimes, it's like, there's an AP- you know how it is in high school, AP classes, and this and that, and sometimes it was hard to be with a cohort that wasn’t like, 100%, fully motivated to go to school, to study, to learn, and community college I kind of found this group, and especially in the teachers and professors, where they were truly committed to learning and teaching, and it was a little different than some of the experiences I had in high school where, some of the teachers like- their purpose- and we need people like this, too- was just like to get students through it, you know, just to keep them here to get them to pass, but for me, like I was- I felt I was missing out, and I was fortunate enough at the time, Hawaii Community College was directly below Konawaena. So I could literally walk from high school so you know, I’d start my day in high school or something then I would just walk down the road and I'd be at community college, and I took so many classes there, I ended up taking, like 36 credits, it's basically like, a year's worth of college classes during- between Junior and senior year. Everything from like, to astronomy, to English, you know, basic introductory English classes. I took like ANP, I took like microbiology, just like some very foundational sciences. So I started with that. And then when I graduated, then I went to New York. I said, Hey, I'm getting some island fever here. Okay, I need to see the rest of the world, you know. So, I hadn’t been to Oahu much. I was basically, big island boy. And it's just like, it's so rural, I just needed- I don’t know I just felt in my heart, I need to see a different culture. I need to see how people worked elsewhere. Because, as beautiful as Hawaii is, and I loved growing up in Big Island. And I was like, I feel like I need to see more. I need to compare it. You know, I guess is it as awesome as it is, you know, it turns out yeah, that's pretty sweet. I went to New York. Okay. Um, turns out they have something called a winter there. Oh, my goodness, it was horrible. But anyways, so I went to undergrad there, small little private college, it's called the Sage Colleges had probably like 1000 students total. So very much smaller class sizes. You know, overall, I think my biggest class was like, 30 people or something.

Jason: And where New York was this?

Derek: Oh, this is in Albany. Upstate New York. Yeah. So oftentimes, people from Hawaii you know, I just want to give- you know, cuz this is what I thought too. Okay. People think New York. Oh, you went to New York? Oh, you mean New York City? No, no, no, no, New York is like this huge place. Okay. It's huge, right. So like, I went to school, probably like two hours from New York City, North, okay, like, into the Adirondacks, like this beautiful mountain ranges. You know, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. But I went to college up there. So I spent, basically four years there. And my original passion with running start was to graduate early, but I was just like, I was just loving college so much, you know, and I got good financial aid there. I said, hey, let's just take another year. And, you know, it helped me kind of sort out my application for medical school, and, all that kind of stuff. So it was good to have that extra time. But yeah, it was a culture shock. Absolutely. When I got there, and you know, at the time, it was spooky, but looking back, it was probably one of the most valuable experiences of my life, to see people were not as like, friendly at first glance, like no one’s throwing out shakas and saying what's up, you know, they're all kind of like, whoa, this guy- why is he waving at me? He's crazy. And driving around, like, you know, here honking, it's like taboo, right? You only honk when, like, something truly catastrophic is gonna happen, like, an infant is crossing the road and is about to collide, oh my God, beep, you know, but like, in New York, it's just- that's like, a greeting on the road, you know, Hey, what's up? Beep, You know, oh, man, you know, at the end of it I was honking too so it really, you know, I really changed. But overall, beautiful experience, and when I would come back to Hawaii, during my college experience, so sometimes I come back in the summer, sometimes in the winter, when I landed, I would just get so emotional. You know, here I am, back in this place that, for a time I wanted to get out of. I'm like, oh my god, shoot me out of here. Island fever. I don't know, this is- I'm getting crazy here. But whenever I come back, I would just see my family. You know, I would see the nature, I would see these mountains that I grew up on these beautiful beaches. And just be reminded, this is home. And this is truly the most beautiful place. And I kept having that experience. And eventually I was like, Okay, I think I just want to be here. Yes. And if I could be here for medical school, that'd be such a blessing. You know, and here I am. And it's just really worked out. But yeah, sorry. Rambling a bit, but-

Andie: I think a lot. Yeah, a lot of people can relate. And I know that all three of us kind of had similar experiences, or went all the way, like 5000 miles away to land somewhere else. And then just get shocked into kind of finding that extra love for Hawaii. And just the value and I don't know what it means to be from here, and to return home is very special. But that being said, are you thinking [of] practicing at home?

Derek: Oh, absolutely. I'm not sure about the, like the Big Island specifically. But definitely somewhere within Hawaii. I mean, we constantly hear about physicians shortages, you know, and, as we're in medical school, and we've been thinking about all the different things we want to specialize in. We know we so quickly realize that Hawaii doesn't have a whole lot of resources, even within like the- with the realm of residencies, I think last I heard if you want to be an emergency medicine doctor, you have to do residency somewhere else, so it’s challenging, and I think based on what specialty you pick, it kind of complicates your plans for where you'll end up practicing in the future. But for me, I think there's psychiatry residency here, but I feel so passionate about this community, and honestly, my roots here, my family that to me is one of the most major things I value my life and going somewhere else for- to be a physician to practice would just be so counter to those fundamental values for myself, seeing family has been, honestly, one of the things that keeps me going through school too is like, there's this- and it's not many moments you can you can go back and reconnect cuz there's- schools are so busy, but when you can do it, it's so you know, what I realized, it's so important, when you're there to give yourself fully in a moment, you know, and not because I was like, Oh my gosh, we have to start MD3, and study the kidney over break, and all this stuff, but the time I was like, I need to focus completely on being with them. Because that to me, is- you know the kidney will always be there. You know, these people that I love, my family, they're gonna only be here for like, a week, as long as I'm here. And after that, they're- I'm not going to see them for- I don’t know, whenever I go back. So it's important that moment, just to give yourself 100% to whatever you're doing, and I kind of realized that a little over break.

Andie: Yeah, we actually all happen- Derek, Jason and I all happen to be in the same learning community moku and our director, he always says that- he gave us that advice at the beginning, kind of like, when you do something, do it with 100%. So like, if you're spending time with your family, do that 100%, If you're doing studying, do that 100%, and don't like neglect the parts of your life that are important. Even though it feels like we always have to study.

Derek: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[Taking gap years- 16:53]

Andie: I think you touched on this a little bit going into what you were describing, but I was wondering if you could kind of elaborate- okay, first of all, Derek's a genius. Like we asked him if he would be willing to share his like stats.

Derek: Oh, my Oh,

Andie: Just for people who are trying to, you know, go into medicine. Wait did you take any gap years? Or like, did you go straight in?

Derek: I took two gap years.

Andie: Okay. Maybe first you could tell us what you did during your gap year? And then, you know, just describing how you applied, and what made you be like, okay, now it's time or like, how did you think about that?

Derek: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I know, college for me. It was tough. You know, I knew I wanted to go into medicine pretty early. So I think when you come in with that mindset, you're in hyperfocus, all the time, every point on an exam feels like the decision as to whether or not you'll get into med school or you have to do something else, so I went so hard, probably starting from- I think I found out like the second semester of my freshman year. So I basically committed myself to studying and that constant grind, the constant- you attach your value and your career and your goal and your future to these numbers on test, it beats you down, it wears you down, and truthfully, by the end of college, I was tired. I was honestly tired. And I felt that this is not the state that I want to be in when I start medical school, you know, medical school, to me, how I imagined it's like, it's a time in your life where you're invigorated, you're surrounded by the smartest people, you know, and you're all here together working for a common goal, and why start that journey burnt out, you know, and in a way that that's what I was feeling, so- and I was involved in so much I did all these extracurricular stuff I was- I tried to get A's in everything I was doing research, I was working as a scribe part time, I was just like, every day was packed with stuff. And when I finished school, I was really just tired. And I thought to myself, I think I need some time to recollect my thoughts, and because of how hard I was going, I wasn't able to focus on the application. I didn't know what the MCAT was even about, and going to a small school, one of the major disadvantages is that sometimes, you know, you don't have a good community of pre med students or even advisors that can help you along that path, so for me, I was kind of going into it blind. So I had to do my own research about what it took to get into medical school in terms of applications in terms of MCAT, what are you meant to study for the MCAT? So, when I graduated, I pretty much knew I wanted to take some time, I wasn't ready to go right away, because if you want to go right away after graduating you have to know like junior year, I was in a different direction completely. So I graduated college. And at that point, I was like, okay, I know number one. I know I want to go to medical school, you know, I know to get to medical school, you have to take this thing called the MCAT, which is this horrible beast, and that's when I really started thinking about it, it was kind of late, and then you need to get this application together. And I thought to myself, it seems reasonable for me to take this year off to just think about what it means to get into medical school, what it takes to study and just focus on that. And like, honestly, that's kind of a rare thing to be able to do, I didn't have to- at the time I- my parents were so helpful in helping me just like live, they're helping me with rent and food. So it's really a privilege, people say, Hey, let me take these four months to just go figure it out. But I was so grateful and so lucky for that.

And I'm actually mentoring students right now, where one of the major problems they have is they're working full time, or working part time, and trying to figure out how to study for the MCAT. You know, and that's the thing, I think, why I did so well, on the MCAT is because I was able to treat it like a full time job. You know, and a lot of students that are applying- and this goes to a lot of, you know, this touched on a lot of the disparities that comes with applying to med school, it's like, some people have simply- can't just take off a few months to go study, and that's- the score you get on the test in a lot of ways is directly related to how much time you spend taking these practice tests, and these questions, and I had a lot of time to spend, and I did such. So, you know, I was able to do that. But for people that are better working, it's incredibly challenging. But at any rate so I basically spent, sorry, graduated college, I spent three to four months, basically full time studying for the MCAT took my test, you know, and then got my score back. And, you know, I felt pretty good, but I knew I needed to- I don’t know, there's a big part of me that felt like I needed more clinical experience, and I needed- there's also some, some major challenges I was going through my life.

Something I didn't touch on, when I was graduating college, one of- you know, major life of that my roommate- very heavy- ended up committing suicide, I found his body and it was just like, this major traumatic event in my life. And another just major thing, I just thought I was like, I don't want to enter med school, having this kind of weight on me, I want to, like, take time to really heal from these major events, this major trauma in my life, and that gap year gave me that freedom to get through it, and initially, I was like- I was committed to studying and that was kind of my way of like, processing through that grief was just to focus on something else, just put myself completely into studying. And then, you know, and he was so close to me, and by the end of my studying, I got my score back and it was all great, you know, all these emotions came flooding back and I just knew, I just needed more work to do, you know, before you get to med school, it's just like, one of the most important things you can do, in my experience, is to just get yourself right, to get your mind, right, your body ready for this major, major journey, you're gonna go down, and really, now that we're six months into it, it's so true, you know, it's- they say, medical school was a marathon, but I'm sure- I agree with that completely. But honestly, I think it's more of like a- it's a relay race, it's like a series of sprints, you know, and, and each few months, each few weeks, they call, for you to be to be someone else in a way to work harder in some way or to be more resolute in some way.

And, for me, I just knew I needed, when I started school, I needed to be at that moment, whatever that meant best version of myself. And, it doesn't mean I'm like, perfect, but it just like, considering, my whole life, like, I need to just be ready to go. And that gap year gave me that time, so I started off, MCAT grind mode, got a good score, ready to apply, and when I was done with that, it was just emotionally challenging because I, you know, I kind of suppressed all these emotions about my roommate. And so what I did to overcome that is I started volunteering at hospice, started talking to counselors, and, one major thing was, like, you know, it can be helpful to volunteer in these organizations that, kind of surrounding death kind of, change your idea of what death is like, and so I spent about two years in hospice, volunteering, and that to me was like, just completely pivotal in helping me overcome a lot of that grief and that kind of regret I was feeling, you know, surrounding his death. But yeah, so really the gap year was- there was so much that I accomplished in that gap year. And I'll get into a summary of that in the next- in part two guys, stick around. Part two baby, stick around okay!!! I know, I know, I’m pulling you in we have less than a minute remaining. But here we go.

[Part 2 Babyyyy!!!- 24:56]

Andie: Yeah, maybe to jump back into it. Maybe you can like finish up telling us about your gap year and maybe things you've learned from that and I think it's also really important that you're talking about kind of getting yourself right, because I think that was something that I had to do to like- there's so much pressure going into medical school specifically this field to be good all the time and to keep ready and always on your game and going in straight, the pressure to just be performing 24/7. And I think that was something that I realized coming out, because going in, I was like, Oh, just go straight. But I think when I finished I was like, Man, I don't want to waste this opportunity by being upset all the time and being stressed all the time. So, yeah, I think giving- you're giving people like, the okay to- you're gonna be okay.

Derek: Yeah absolutely. And that's the thing, it's like, yeah, you apply to medical school, you go into this field, and the expectation is that physicians are supposed to be this perfect people. But in actuality, it's like, we're human too. And, by virtue of being human, that gives you permission, it's okay to, to break down sometimes, you know, life isn't perfect. You know, there's no doubt that, any road you walk on, there's gonna be some turns and twists and craziness. And that's something I just- I had to go through when I was first beginning my application to medical school, and in a way like with, you know, the experience of my cousin growing up like that, that was a major twist and turn in my life too. And it's okay to do that. And that shouldn't make you feel like you're not able to be a physician, if anything, that- those experiences, if you're able to take them, transform them, and use them to kind of empower you in this journey. And that's exactly what you should be doing. And that's beautiful. And that's the stance that I took on it, you know, that gap year gave me time, essentially, to reflect on my entire experience, throughout college, through the major life experiences that I had. And it allowed me to reflect on it and consider how that made me a better candidate for medical school, and ultimately, a better physician, I thought about these major trauma had my roommate, I thought about this, you know, this- my cousin being addicted to heroin, and all these things, and how, being an observer in those moments, seeing how deeply you know, those people were affected by these different illnesses and diseases. How seeing that allowed me to connect better with patients within those demographics, but also to empower me to go through this journey in the first place, you know, here I am seeing people firsthand, suffering, you know, people very close to me. And that that is such a powerful reservoir to channel upon when you're going through school, what, because school undoubtably- we're in it right? Now, it's hard sometimes, you're like, why am I- sometimes you're like, why am I doing this, but if you can call upon these key moments in your life, that remind you of why you're in this in the first place, it makes it so much easier to get through it, so really, the gap year for me, it was a time of reflection, and honestly, reflection, and in a way, just distance and just perspective on the whole process, it's like, you start med school, you really should be in the right state of mind, you should be the best person you can possibly be in that moment. Because it's going to be- the journey has just begun, really, and by the end of college, it's easy to feel exhausted, like you've just done so much. But when you start school, it's time for the next leg of the journey, and you want to be like, all stocked up and prepared. And, you know, for me, so just kind of conclude on the rest of my gap year. So, first started off with the MCAT. And then, after that did a bunch of hospice, volunteer and clinical skills, clinical volunteering work, and then I basically applied in that second year of my gap year, and at the time, I was doing other clinical work, I was working as a surgical assistant on the on the Big Island for like an oral surgeon. And that was really good experience, but I don’t know that's pretty- I'm not sure how, you know, I- so basically, I got my acceptance to JABSOM I think it was like in December, and we start in the summer. But as soon as I found out, I was accepted. I said, hey, you know, I'm very tired these days.

In a way I know this journey is beginning and honestly, I need a break, a break! Just a break. You know what I mean? Whoa! A novel concept. But truthfully, a break is important. And you know, I took a few months off- I would say I took a few months off. And all I did for this month- And you know, I had savings from work so I could feel- I could sustain this you know, I just played video games honestly, for like, a few months. Video games, seeing friends seeing family enjoying life for like, you know, two months before I started school. That's kind of like was two months. It was like the last big hurrah, last break of my life, but I'll tell you, Oh my god, blissful, truthfully blissful state, and I think it's so important, you know, to have those times of just nothing else going on, it's just about relaxing and just being with people you love. Because you know, when you're going through medical school, honestly, that's kind of what keeps you going too is like, you know, we go through these sprints, we study, study, study, study, study, and we'll get like a week or two, you know, or even maybe like a three day weekend. But if you can take that time, and you're spending it with people you love, and you're maximally efficient, and rest and relaxation, it really gears you up for the next leg of the journey, and for me, like that two months of doing nothing, yeah, sure, I wasn't like making gains, being efficient, in like my academics or whatnot, but in terms of my soul, and my spirit and just being able to get through it, oh, I was healing that baby to the maximum. You know, when I started school, I was ready to go, I felt good. You know? So, that's another benefit of the gap year, so for me, it was about reflection, you know, Why should I even go into medical school? Why should I be a physician, but also it was a time of relaxation, a time of just kind of rewarding myself for all I had gone through in college and saying, hey, it's okay, for me to take a break, I've been working so hard my entire life, it's okay to take just a couple months off, and that's what I did, so a little bit of work, a little bit reflection, but a lot of break. And that was just beautiful. So that's my gap year.

And, in summary, I'd recommend everyone do it. Honestly, I think it's pretty remarkable, for people to go straight in from college. I think there's a lot of advantages to that, like, you're definitely more in tune with the material, you're in the mode of studying, but coming back to school was hard for me to get back into the groove. But at the same time, that time off gives you perspective into life, in a way you probably wouldn't ever imagine. If you didn't take that time off, I'm sure a lot of gap year students can relate to that. And I think honestly, if I was to choose one or the other, I would always go for gap year, because it gives you- I think, in a way, it helps you connect with people more because you kind of take the gap year, you're kind of tuning in more to just who you are as an individual, and if you're just going straight away, it's kind of like you're still in like student, student, student identity grind mode, you know, at least in my perspective, I think there's so much value in taking time off, and just simply- just like living life in whatever way you want. And to have that freedom is a beautiful thing. And once you're in med school, you know that freedom diminishes, because there's so much expected of you. So I think it's important to take time away, just to explore yourself a little more, and what you value and what you love. And for me the gap year was all about that

[Staying optimistic- 33:09]

Jason: Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. Like I took two gap years, and I needed every minute of them to kind of, relax, reset, get back into it. And then even from kind of the more practical perspective, like really, you're only building your resume, you're only building experiences. And taking that time off as a rest. It's just kind of an added benefit. You know, we're not all Ryan, we can't go straight from middle school to medical school. Like, most need a little more time that. But you mentioned, during your gap year, it helped you to kind of change your perspective on life and your career and all of that. And one of my favorite things about you is you're like the most optimistic person I've ever met. Or at least that's kind of what you exude. You know, when Derek walks in the room, everyone lights up, you know

Andie: He is so genuine. It's not like, you're forcing it. So, yeah.

Jason: Yeah. So I mean, I'm just curious, like, how do you stay so positive? Do you have any kind of like, secret, it really is important because it changes the way to interact with others, it changes the way- your relationship with school, your career. So yeah. Do you have any, I guess, advice for that?

Derek: Advice for that? I don't know. You know, and, in a way, it's like, so much of that is rooted in how I was raised and just simply being in Hawaii and growing up in a community where, people genuinely care about other people, and honestly, if you're in Hawaii, how bad can life be, as tough as it is sometimes, like, you just look out your window and you see you're surrounded by beauty in every moment, and if you take a moment to reconnect with that thought, like, it's easy to feel positive sometimes, but I suppose a big part of it, for me, personally, is that, I've- I suppose I've had to go through some degree of suffering in my life. And as we all do, and I think I saw early on that, in a lot of ways, suffering is inevitable. And we will all experience it in some way or another, the loss of a family member, something you care about, or something doesn't go your way, it's just constantly here. But you consider, what are the things that bring you back from those moments, and oftentimes, it's the people you're with, and the community, you know, the relationships that you cultivate, and I just tried to focus more on those, I think if you surround yourself with the people that make you happy, the ones that make life worth living, then I think you're in the right spot. And I think, for me, it's like, early on, I've always- I still talk to my- I have two of these major, major best friends from like, elementary, middle, and like middle school, and I talk to them, you know, like, once or twice a week, and I think that's amazing, a major boon for mental health was just surround yourself with people that you love, and people that, you know, genuinely care about you. I think it's- as we get older, and things get busier, it's easy to lose sight of those relationships that make an impact in your life, cuz you just get so busy, but for me, it's always a priority, it's like, no matter where I am in life, I need to be sure that, I'm around people that make me happy. And it really, that's where I get it from, usually, I'm with people that I enjoy, and people that kind of reignite a spark within me. And that kind of just keeps me going too, and as long as I can keep hold of that, like, I think, I can always bring a positive attitude and everything, because they're positive too just, yeah, just surround yourself with people that are happy as well, and are, you know, are showing that.

[Favorite JABSOM memories- 36:57]

Andie: So, um, yeah, I think, now that you've told us how you got here, and given us a little bit of advice on that. I was wondering, now that you're here, what has been some of your favorite memories at JABSOM? Or, what do you- I know, you love the people, and obviously, everybody loves you too. But we're just wondering, what has been some of your most memorable moments here so far, in our first half year, I guess

Derek: Memorable moments? Yeah, that's a good question, and the thing I automatically default to is our class, it's just these interactions, we have with the people that are going through with us. And, that's something I always want to emphasize is like that- when you think about it, med school is really tough journey. What, truthfully, at the end of the day, gets you through it, and for me, it's like, my classmates, they're like, whoa, this, is this crazy. Do we really have to study like, every muscle in the forearm in less than an hour and know where these connect and attach? And what innervates them? And what vessels supply them? And oh, did you know there's multiple layers? It's just like, Oh, my God, right? It's craziness. Right? It's absolute craziness. But there's people doing it at the same time, you're like, wow, this is horrible. You know, this is very challenging. Like, this sucks, you know, but it's, you know, you gotta do it, of course, and it's being able to relate to this, to our classmates, and being able to connect with them and say, hey, like, this journey is hard, but we're gonna get through it together. And that, to me is like I think the heart of JABSOM, the main appeal for me, and being here just further illustrates that, is that the people are just absolutely phenomenal, and it extends far beyond the class itself, but also in the upperclassmen, and, probably, the people that are coming next year, they could be of equal beauty in terms of their- how they interact with individuals, the teachers, our mentors, they're all so kind. And they truly are just trying to create an environment where we feel supported, and ready to go. And that, to me, is the most my favorite part JABSOM. And I'm sure like, that's echoed constantly between every student because, quite simply, it's there, you know, even the first day you walk in, and, I mean, first of all, you're in Hawaii. So it's like, already, it's sweet, but you're with people that, at least if you're, in state, like you're with people that have been here their whole life, you understand, there's kind of like an understanding as you walk in, there's this culture of support and gratitude and family. And that, to me, is my favorite aspect of JABSOM you know, truthfully, because that is what keeps you grounded and connected in life when you have a community that you belong to. And then JABSOM makes you feel like that, I feel like I belong and that's the- it's a simple thing. But it means everything, to feel like you belong somewhere in life. Oh, my, what a good thing to have.

[Final words of wisdom- 40:09]

Jason: So, yeah, I'm trying to think, I mean, is there any kind of like, last advice you would have for- if you could kind of distill everything, your whole life into one sentence? What would it be?

Andie: Like clinical presentations?

Jason: Yeah, exactly.

Derek: Oh,

Jason: You have 30 seconds to make your point

Derek: Oh, Gosh, gosh. I mean, truthfully? I think it's okay just to not try sometimes, honestly, honestly, you know, my whole life, all of undergrad, I've been perfectionist, you know, I said, Hey, if I'm not getting a 4.0. What am I doing here, like, come on, right. And that's a very toxic relationship with yourself, because we're- we know, we're more than our grades, like, a grade doesn't define who you are as a human, and, for me, most of my undergrad, that's kind of how I evaluated myself, if I didn't get A's, was I worthy of this process, was I worthy of being a physician? And I think that's one of the worst ways to approach it, I want the physician who is more than their score, their grades, I want the physician who is in touch with herself, who is connected to being human, in a way. And I think that by trying less, sometimes by not spending every ounce of your mental energy on school and other work, you at least open the doorway to understanding who you are, and just being more in touch with what it means to just simply live. So my advice would be, you know, quite simply, it's okay to just be. To just be. Honestly, life is so much more than a grade, and medical school is so much more than your MCAT score, your GPA, it's about who you are. It's about why you're here, and what you want to do with it moving forward. I think if you come in with the right heart, with the right goals, you know, and you're truly committed to this process, you will do fine, you will succeed, and it doesn't matter if you're the top of your class, bottom of your class, middle of your class, you're here now, and do that, you know, with that scope, move on from it, just be the best you can be in that regard. Yeah, it's not about- once you're here, you're not gonna be leaving, it's like, as long as you're moving forward, you're gonna find where you belong. And if you keep reminding yourself of that, as you're going through it. That's gonna be good process for you. Well, but yeah, that's all I got. I don’t know, that's kind of off the cuff a little bit, but

Jason: I love that. I love that. Incredible yeah. And yeah, I think, oh sorry go ahead

Andie: I said I couldn't have said it better.

Jason: Yeah, um, I think that's a good way to leave it. Yeah. Derek, thank you so much for joining us. You know, there's a reason why you're everyone in our class’s favorite person.

Derek: Oh, man

Jason: I thoroughly appreciate you spending the time with us

Andie: Like I know through like the audio, you can just like, feel how bright and like, how amazing he is. So yeah, we're really, really lucky to have you and clearly you're a very good storyteller.

Derek: Oh, thank you.

Andie: Because you’re carrying us through this podcast right now. But thank you so much for joining us.

Jason: All right. Thanks for joining us, everyone. Be sure to tune in next time I will be talking to Awa

Derek: CHEEEEHOOOOOOOO

Legend: 

JABSOM: John A. Burns School of Medicine

PBL: Problem Based Learning

[Intro- 00:00]

Andie: Hi guys, welcome to JABSOM Journeys. This is the fifth episode and this is Andie, I'm joined with my co-host today, Jason

Jason: Hey everyone.

Andie: And we are lucky enough to be joined by our classmates, Stephanie Lum. She spent a lot of time before medical school as a nurse, which is really cool. And something that's really special, I think, to bring into the medical field, already having patient interaction and learning another aspect of health care. And so we thought that her presence and her company would be really cool today. So Stephanie, could you introduce yourself a little?

Steph: Sure. Hi, I'm Stephanie. I am from a law school and I went to Iolani for high school. I started undergrad in New Jersey at Fairleigh Dickinson University. And about a year and a half in I ended up transferring home. So I finished my nursing degree at Chaminade. And after that, it was really difficult to find a job as a new grad nurse. So I applied to 50 positions across the country, and across like 13 different states, and Mayo was actually the first institution to offer me a job. So I packed a few suitcases, and I moved to Minnesota. And I worked there for about three and a half years. And then somewhere along those lines, I decided to make a career pivot. So I went back to school and did an accelerated post-bach program there while I was working, and then applied to medicine. And now I'm here.

[Nursing to medical school- 01:52]

Jason: So can you tell me a little bit more about what made you make the transition from nursing school to medical school? Like what really inspired that in the first place?

Steph: Sure, sure. It's a question I get a lot because it's a pretty unconventional route. There are a lot easier routes, for example, like nurse practitioner school, or CRNA school. And that's actually what I wanted to be initially. And my plan was to become a CRNA. And it's a really common career aspiration for ICU nurses, because you do need a few years of experience in order to apply. And while I was shadowing, in preparation for applying for CRNA school I shadowed in New York, and Hawaii and Minnesota. And during that time, I just I shadowed CRNAs, as well as anesthesiologist because they do shift work. So they switch in and out. And I just happen to learn a lot more from anesthesiologist and it got me thinking that I wanted to learn all of that pathophysiology, biochem, behind their clinical decisions. So that's sort of what sparked an interest.

Andie: Yeah, that's amazing that you still have that drive to come back after all your experience and everything. It sounds like you've had so much experience kind of across the board here, both here and on the mainland. And I'm just kind of wondering what you liked about both institutions, both places you've worked, which is Queens and Mayo.

Steph: That is a great question, Andie. At Mayo Clinic, I liked that there was a really efficient system in place the infrastructure was well done, in my opinion. And a good example of that would be the fact that different roles in the hospital had different colored scrubs, for example, phlebotomy wore burgundy, certain nurses wore Navy, ER nurses were black and patient techs and nursing aides wore Caribbean blue. So in a code blue situation, it was really helpful to know what role someone had. So you could just ask them to do something very quickly. And I thought it worked well in emergency situations like that. And at Queen's, it's hard to beat the

sort of feeling of home and family that you have is very special to Hawaii. So I felt that in every setting that I've worked in as a nurse aide in the neuro unit and as a nurse in the medical ICU. I did feel that in Mayo as well. We had a really close-knit group and a lot of great people just so good at what they do. And that I think is my favorite part of working in both places. Just the colleagues that I had, how talented they were, how intelligent they were, and just how caring they were in terms of caring for both each other and our patients. That was my favorite aspect.

[Applying while working during the pandemic- 05:00]

Jason: Could you talk a little bit more about kind of how the application process was for you, because you mentioned you did like a post-bach program. So while you applied, were you actually in nursing school or sorry working as a nurse, or were you kind of taking a break from that?

Steph: I did work throughout the whole application process. I started as a full time student, and then I ended up cutting back hours when I went back to school. The process itself was really difficult. For me, it was quite a low period in my life, to be honest, I had gone back to school for about maybe six to eight months before COVID hit. And even prior to that it was tough. I found an accelerated program, which I love. It's Northwestern Health Sciences University. It's amazing, like post-bach program, it is accelerated, which is nice. So I could do all of my prereqs in one year. And the faculty, they're amazing. It just happened to be in Bloomington, which is an hour away from where I was living. So that posed, like already sort of a difficult decision in terms of whether I would stay and live in Rochester, or whether I would move up there. And I ended up finding a place next to school and living there from Monday through Thursday for my classes because they were in person and flying back or not flying back, sorry, driving back to Rochester every weekend from either Friday, usually from Friday through Sunday. So it was this constant back and forth of packing all my groceries for the week, and then packing my clothes and my school things and then coming back and working on the weekend. So that was tough. And that was before COVID hit. And during COVID. I thought about maybe stopping working completely. But during that time, all of my colleagues, they were amazing. They were making a lot of sacrifices for our team working extra hours for like, Yeah, and just helping out whenever they could. So I wanted to be a part of that work environment. And so I still worked not as much as my other colleagues. But I did end up continuing to work and that COVID Just took its own sort of toll on me as well. We were working a lot like, for example, in the beginning, no one knew what was going on in terms of proper PPE, like things like that. And so I remember like working shifts where I wouldn't, like eat, drink or go to the bathroom for nine or 10 hours at a time because our patients were just so sick. And you can't really step away with you have no one to cover you. We were always short staffed. So that was going on for a lot of my application process time. So it made it made things tough, especially studying for the MCAT. Wow. I don't just like that was like not that's not, that was not the order that I wanted to talk about.

Andie: That's okay, that was yeah, that's just so amazing. I don't know, it's just a really big honor to call you, you know, our friend to have served during a time of the pandemic. I know, like a lot of us saw what happened to especially the health teams, especially the nurses on the front line. And to know someone there is like really awesome. And then to see you now in medical school like, yeah. Oh and the pandemic, I didn't realize you were working during that time. And also during while you're studying, which must have, you know, applying for med school is already a huge responsibility on top of literally saving lives on top of also taking care of yourself, which can't like be easy at all. How do you like to spend the little free time that you probably had at the time? Or like when you're applying? What are some tips to kind of keep yourself going? I know you said you struggled a little which I can't imagine trying to balance all of that. So big, like big props to you. But yeah, maybe just I know like a lot of pre meds or people who are applying might be working at the same time. Maybe not as a nurse, but in other fields and just how did you kind of like stay the course?

Steph: I think one of the small things that I did for myself was really just setting aside time for good baths and that sounds so minor but that was a way that I that was time that I really felt like I could just really decompress. I took my time I would take long hot showers and that helps me kind of regroup after like long shifts or tough days at school. In regards to staying the course, while working, I know not everyone can afford to stop working for various reasons while they're applying. And I think my biggest piece of advice if possible would be to find a really good either mentor or a friend who's going through the same part of the application processes. I think that was really my saving grace, I felt lucky enough, where I found like a best friend during that post-bach program time, and she really, really helped me out mentally. We prepped for every part of the process together, we finished all of our classes together. And then we did some research stuff together. And we studied for the MCAT. And like every part of the process, I had someone to either bounce ideas off of or to just vent to. And I think that was the most, most valuable. I guess, yeah, that was just the thing that I'm the most grateful for. And I don't think I would have been able to get through the whole application process without someone like that next to me.

Jason: Oh, yeah, no, that's really great to hear. That's definitely good advice. You know, it's really important to have that support, especially someone going through the same stuff as you are. I'm just wondering if you could give like, a little bit more specific advice about taking the MCAT while you're so busy, because I know a lot of people kind of struggle with that, you know, they're not able to take time off from work or school or whatever they're doing. So how did you kind of develop a schedule, any like tips for managing that?

Steph: MCAT prep was definitely the most difficult part of my pre med journey. At that time. COVID had already hit and I was still working as a COVID ICU nurse. So in hindsight, that probably wasn't the smartest decision for me. But I felt compelled to help out my colleagues, because a lot of them were making a ton of sacrifices for the team. And they were all incredible during that time. And I felt like I wanted to step up and be there for the team as well. So they were picking up extra hours. And I ended up picking up a few extra shifts here and there just to help out because we were really short staffed during that time. And I didn't take into account the emotional and mental toll that working with patients who were dying alone at the bedside, what a toll that would have on me. And I think in hindsight, if I could have either taken more time to prep for the MCAT. Or maybe just yeah, taking it at a later time would have been ideal. I also had entertained the idea of taking a travel assignment in New York when it was really bad at New York Presbyterian there because I just, I felt like I had to help out in any way that I could. Ultimately I chose not to, because that would definitely mean that I would apply the following cycle. But in terms of MCAT prep, I have with my friend Hannah, who I befriended in the post-bach program. And we it was really helpful, we made a schedule, we kept each other accountable, we would study either in person or we study while on Zoom. And that helped. We used the Kaplan books, and we use UWorld questions and things like that. And we took it around the same time as well. And I actually submitted my med school application before I found out my MCAT score, which is very, very risky. COVID sort of changed the whole application cycle where the exam was different, and they had changed the testing times and things like that. So I decided to do it that way because it fit best with my timeline during that year, and after submitting, and we found out our scores and she did very well, which I wasn't surprised and I ended up doing quite poorly. I got a sub 500, which if anyone is familiar with the MCAT the new MCAT score it's pretty devastating in terms of applying. And I was devastated. I spent the next week spontaneously crying here and there. And so I was really at a low point. And with about three weeks left of the testing cycle, I had to decide whether I wanted to retake it in that short amount of time, or if I would take it later in the year, which meant that I would apply for the next cycle. And my advisor, she was great, she gave me sound advice, you know, I think you should prep more, take more time to do that, take it later in the year and apply again next year, or apply with later in the year. But as an addendum for my application, and I ended up choosing to take the last test date of this cycle so that I wouldn't have to wait for the following year. And all- I was in Hawaii at that time. And all the two testing centers were full for the rest of the year. And so I chose to book my exam back in Rochester, Minnesota. And I planned to take a flight there and stay at my friend's house for the day of the exam or the night before the exam. And we checked the- my mom and I checked the Pearson website 10 to 12 times a day every day until finally a few weeks later, we found an open spot, luckily, and I took the spot and I canceled my flights. And in the meantime, I was just prepping by myself again. And prior to that after I found out my first MCAT score, I contacted the admissions office at JABSOM and I asked them to take out my application until I took the MCAT. Again, because I didn't want them to look at it with that score. So after that, I found out my MCAT score for the second day, and it was six points higher than my original score, which is nice because it second score that's lower is pretty detrimental to your application. But it was also still below 510. So it was devastating again. So I spent that day spontaneously crying again, and reached out to my advisor, I told her what I had gotten, and that I wasn't sure whether I would hear back from JABSOM, or any other school because of that score, too. So overall, just really low point again, but the next day, I got an email from JABSOM. And they were offering me an interview. So I was very surprised, and also just really grateful that they decided to give me a chance.

[Benefits of experience as a nurse- 17:55]

Andie:  I think the responsibilities of nursing are really different kind of than the responsibilities of a physician. But what are some things that because you have this, like prior whole life experience, almost? How do you think that has kind of influenced your approach to medicine now? Or how has kind of your past life shaped how you want to practice medicine? Or like a good thing that you learned that maybe some of us wouldn't learn not being in that clinical setting?

Steph: That's a great question. I think, if anything, my experience just offers me a better perspective of how to be thoughtful in terms of interacting with different health care team members. A great example would be when putting in orders for something like a dressing change. It's something that we'll do we'll do as interns and as residents and we just do it without thinking. But when you look at a dressing change order from a nursing perspective, you do plan a lot of things either around it or whatever works best in terms of patient care to get that done efficiently. So a lot of times will time dressing changes for when physicians round in the morning. That way we only do it once and we only have to wake up the patient and bother them once. And that's something that without my nursing experience, I don't think I would take into consideration those sort of things like that where- and I think it's because nurses are at the bedside all the time. And so when you come in to do a dressing change really quickly at like 5am in the morning, you do with as a resident or a doctor, and then you leave, but after that, nurses are the ones who redress it a certain way. And we also deal with patients who are grouchy because you woke them up at five in the morning to do this. And so I think my nursing experience will just help me be a more mindful team member, which is always a great quality to have when you are working with other people.

[Comparing nursing school and medical school- 20:30]

Jason: So I think that something that some people might be curious about is, they're trying to decide between doing like medicine or doing nursing, or doing kind of some variation of that. So just wondering if you could talk just a little bit about the experience of nursing school versus medical school, at least kind of what you've had so far, and how that compares?

Steph: Sure, they are so different, and I didn't really- I knew it would be different going in, but I didn't realize how different it would be. So nursing school is a tough undergraduate major, because you're learning nursing classes in terms of disease process and things like that. But early on, you're also exposed to the clinical setting. So you do your clinicals. And your rotations. From some school start in second or third year, I can't quite remember, but you're trying to balance this, sort of, you're trying to balance rotations, that's equivalent to what we do in medical school very early on. And that was a lot to do. Yeah, you're still pulling like eight or 12 hour shifts, precepting other nurses while coming home to study after. So that was different. In terms of material though, we in nursing school, we definitely didn't go as in depth into the biochemistry of the pathophys behind disease. And so right now, like, I don't feel like nursing, my nursing experience can help me out as much as it might in the third year when we are in the hospital settings. But that is a stark difference that just the amount of material that you needed to know, back then I thought was a lot. But the amount that you need to know now is just astronomically different.

Andie: Yeah, I've also studied with Steph and I feel like a lot of your clinical stuff does come into play, because I feel like you're almost like the MS4s that come to join our PBL group. And she'll be like, Oh, this is the solution that uses the IV that you would start and stuff. Yeah, it's so cool. Something that I'm wondering is does that mean because of kind of like where you've come from? Are you mostly interested in trauma care? Are you mostly interested in the ER, are you thinking anesthesiology because it seemed like you really enjoyed your interactions with those doctors.

Steph: Starting medical school, I was interested in dermatology, and anesthesiology after learning about sort of the tough- learning about how competitive dermatology is and how a lot of people do a research year, I have sort of stepped away from that specialty choice right now. I am you know, five years, I took five gap years technically and so I'm not a huge- I don't necessarily want to do a research year. And not that that's the only reason to not do DERM but sort of like not as interested in it anymore and leaning more towards anesthesia. It's what I've been exposed to the most and I've liked all the anesthesia providers, the anesthesiologists that I've shadowed, and I really like the percentage I think of critical care that it encompasses. It's a smaller amount than, say, ICU or, yeah, say critical care, but it's a smaller amount of critical care. And I like that there's usually like a controlled nature to the chaos. ER, I think is a little bit too stressful for what I'm interested in right now. And that poses the question right, if I am going to be an anesthesiologist or if that's what I want to be you should I have just gone the CRNA route. And when I think back because it would have been a shorter route that doesn't include residency and anesthesia or CRNA. It's a really sweet gig, you get to do like the cool parts of anesthesia and you still get to work sort of the same similar hours to nursing so it's sort of the best of both worlds. But when I look back on how I've changed as a person throughout this whole journey. And even now in the first year of medical school, I don't regret deciding to go into medicine, even if I'll end up doing something very similar career wise, because the whole process has changed me. And the and the people I've met along the way, it's just, I can't imagine not going this route to be honest. Yeah.

[Mainland vs Hawaii- 25:40]

Jason: So I'm not sure if we touched on this specifically, but just kind of a two parter. So what brought you back to Hawaii in the first place? And then do you see yourself practicing here in the future?

Steph: Ah, yes, in high school, I wanted to get as far away from Hawaii as possible, you know, grow up and live in the same place, especially a tiny island for 18 years, I wanted to go as far away as I could. So NYU was actually my dream nursing school, but it would have cost an arm and a leg to attend. So Fairleigh Dickinson in New Jersey was the next best option. And they offered me a full scholarship. So it helped my parents out at the time to. And while I was there, I think a lot of you, because you've studied on the mainland as well, I realized that I wanted to be back in Hawaii. And so I was grateful that I found a way to finish my undergrad here. It also allowed me to help take care of my dad at that time, because he was sick, and he ended up passing away. Right after I graduated from undergrad here. So had I not moved back, during that time, I wouldn't have been able to spend the last three years with him. So I'm really grateful for that. And I would have liked to spend the first part of my nursing career here as well, but I could not find a job. So Minnesota was the next best step for me. And the people I met there, my colleagues, they were all incredible. They're all amazing. And I still keep in touch with a few of them. The Minnesota was not for me, it's cold, most of the year, almost the entire year, to be honest. And then it's spring for like five days. And then summer is just super hot for the next few months. So ever since I moved out to Minnesota, I was trying to figure out how I could make my way back home to Hawaii. And it took me a few years longer than I thought because I ended up going back to school. But now that I'm here, I am just so grateful to be going to school here and to still live here. Because I realized, both in Minnesota and New Jersey, that the outdoors and just this sort of environment plays a huge role in my mental health. And to be able to be here and nurturing that is really nice. And I would love to come back here and practice. Right now because I'm interested in anesthesia. There isn't a residency program here. So the plan would be to move to the mainland for residency. And then, of course, I would love to move back here and like start a family here and settle down here.

Jason: Yeah, I think Andie and I can both relate to the back and forth of being in Hawaii like, well, I have to get out of here. You go to the mainland, East Coast specifically. It's like, well, I have to get back to Hawaii. And now we like being in med school and be like, You know what, I want to go back to the mainland. And then yeah, it's kind of a it's real back and forth thing. But yeah. So I guess now that you’re here at JABSOM. So what have been some of your favorite experiences here?

Steph: Hands down the people. I'm not sure what I was expecting in terms of classmates, or what kind of cohort we were gonna have. But I am just blown away by all of you guys. And just everyone. I don't know, I don't think I've ever been in an environment where I was surrounded by so many like, brilliant, intelligent people who are also just so kind and caring. I think we are lucky to have such a close cohort. And everyone is just so I don't know supportive. Everyone. There's I don't feel like anyone- like the competitive nature in the class is not what I think a lot of people would expect in med school. And I think, you know, the curriculum structure adds to that as well. But I think that just the people here are just so inspired. Like I- Everyday I'm inspired by my classmates I to be a better person a better student and cuz that's my favorite part about JABSOM. And I think they really emphasize how important it is to be supportive of each other and to- yeah, just to be supportive of each other, and to create this and foster this, like, positive learning environment.

Andie: I think a lot of the same sentiment comes here. And I think Steph was one of the first people I met, and I can say all the same back to her, you know, just she's so kind and so nice and just is always smiling. And really, like, I don't know, our classes is amazing. I don’t know what else to say. Um, do you know what you’re doing this summer?

Steph: Oh yes, yes. I’ll be doing research at the University of Maryland for the summer. I applied to- oh I don’t know- the MSTAR program. It’s anesthesia. Like a research program and they sort of do like this matching system, so I was matched there and that is where I’ll be and I think they’ve got a lot of great resources at the University of Maryland and I’m excited to explore both Baltimore and DC because I’m sort of in between in College Park

Andie: Yeah, yeah. I spent most of my gap years in Maryland and I loved it. I think you’re gonna like it a lot. It’s like very fun. There’s a lot to do. The museums- the Smithsonians are just amazing. You kind of can’t get enough of it. But-

Steph: I’m really excited

[Favorite part of JABSOM- 31:40]

Andie: Yeah I’m glad. The other question that I had for you today was our schedule is so busy and its very variable. What do you like best in the med school curriculum right now or what part is kind of hooking you?

Steph: Right now I’d have to say that PBL is probably my favorite part of the week. It’s nice to sort of get to know people who aren’t in your normal friend group and to get to know people every few months is really nice. And even if you have a friend outside of PBL, you don’t really get to see them in this sort of academic light. And it’s nice to be able to interact with them in this way where we are sort of solving a problem or puzzle together and just seeing all that they bring into their LIs and things like that, it’s really nice to be able to see another side of friends and classmates. It’s a great way to get to know other people in our class that I don’t normally get a chance to talk to.

Andie: Ok so our last question for you tonight is just gonna be chill. We were wondering if you had a B list super power, so something that wasn’t teleportation or something, you know, classic invisibility or mind reading, what would it be?

Steph: I’d have to say superspeed but just in a very niche sort of timeframe. So I am perpetually late. If you ask anyone who has known me for the past 28 years, it’s probably one of my worst qualities. And so it is actually what I chose to work on for my 2022 resolution, and if I could have superspeed in terms of just putting together my things for the day, or just putting together my things to leave a coffee shop or school, I don’t know why it takes me so long to pack up everything. I’m always the last to leave out of a friend group or the last to leave the house, and so I would love if I could do that super quickly and that would minimize the chances that I am late because it is very disrespectful of people’s time and I don’t want to be disrespectful so that would help a lot.

Andie: that’s a good one. Yeah.

Jason: Alright, so that’s all the time we have. Thank you so much Steph for coming on, that was awesome, so much good advice. 

Andie: Yeah thanks Steph! We really loved having you here. 

Steph: Thanks for having me guys, this was fun.

Andie: Woooo

Legend: 

JABSOM: John A. Burns School of Medicine

[Intro- 00:00]

Jason: Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of JABSOM Journeys. I'm your host Jason, and I'm joined by my co-host, Andie.

Andie: Hello.

Jason: And today we have two wonderful guests, Scott and Krystin, can you just introduce yourself real quick?

Scott: Yeah, yeah, so my name is Scott Nishioka. I grew up in Manoa and went to Punahou school for most middle school and high school, graduated in 2015. And then went to Occidental College and Los Angeles took a few years off to do some research at Straub. And that's what led me to JABSOM.

Krystin: Hi, I'm Krystin Wong. I grew up in Kaneohe. I also went to Punahou with Scott. And then I went to Columbia in New York for college. I also worked with Scott for two years. And then now I'm here at JABSOM

Andie: This is our first kind of co episode. These are two of our best friends here at JABSOM. And so I guess our first question for you guys is how do you guys know each other? I know you guys met at Punahou. But I guess, can you elaborate on it?

Krystin: Yeah, so I started at Punahou in sixth grade. And Scott was actually in my sixth grade class, we sat at the same table. And so we've always been in the same friend group throughout high school, separated for college. But we would still hang out when we were home for winter break and stuff like that. And then coincidentally, we both ended up working for Straub at their research orthopedics department. And we were on the same track for applying to med school. And then now we're here together again.

[Why medicine?- 2:00]

Jason: Nice, nice. That's awesome. Yeah. So I guess to kind of take it all the way back to the beginning, I guess Scotty can start with you. So what kind of- what was the moment where you first thought about medicine as a possible career. Not to make it too like med school interview, but just kind of from the basics, like a quick explanation.

Scott: Yeah, I guess one of the first things that kind of made it a possibility to me was some experiences with my grandmother who was diagnosed with Alzheimer's very early on in my life. And she struggled through Alzheimer's for maybe 10 years. And it was pretty tough to watch, you know, the woman who raised me kind of devolve as the disease kind of progressed along. And so that was probably my introduction to the idea of medicine in general.

Krystin: But yeah, I guess similar to Scott, I think just in Hawaii, in general, a lot of kids will grow up around their grandparents, a lot of multi-generational homes. And so yeah, same thing, I was exposed to my grandpa who needed around the clock care after esophagectomy. And so that was kind of my first experience watching just caretaking in general. And then in school, I definitely gravitated towards like this math and sciences, and just learning about the human body. And that was definitely my strength in school. And so because of that, I would try to volunteer at the hospital and just, again, guess, choose my jobs at the time and hobbies based around medicine, and I just continue to love it so

Andie: Nice. It sounds like both of you guys kind of have personal stories that have to do with the reason why you want to go into medicine, like a lot of I think our friends, kind of like husband was saying grew up that way. Learning to take care of your family and people that you love. I guess like, what about being- this is like already a deeper question. Like, what about being around care did you like? What did you find compelling about it?

Scott: Oh, yeah. So, you know, I think kind of the main thing that stuck out to me with that experience was just how devastating and long-lasting Alzheimer's can be as far as its effects. And I think what was compelling about that is just it kind of introduced me to the idea that, you know, medicine, as impressive as it is definitely has its limitations as far as what we can do and what we can cure and what we can even alleviate for our patients. And so I think what compelled me about that and seeing the limitations of medicine was it kind of drove me to think about, you know, how could I, as a provider, potentially improve medicine or how can I improve the experience within medicine? Or just something like that, it just compelled me to want to improve medicine, I guess is a long way to say that. Yeah.

Jason: Well, thanks, man. That's it. really compelling story. And it's clear that you put a lot of thought into kind of the process medicine and kind of the career choice in that way. So yeah, thanks a lot.

[Gap year in Hawaii: 5:25]

Andie: Our next question for you guys is that after graduating from Punahou you guys kind of went your separate ways, one to the East Coast to the West Coast. After spending time in the mainland, sometimes I think people find it hard to come back right away, just because there's opportunity or like, you're kind of established out there at this point. What made you guys come back for the gap year?

Krystin: So for me, because I played a sport for all four years in college, I wasn't able to do a lot in terms of building my med school application. So I knew that when I came home, that was going to be my main focus. And so luckily, I was able to do a lot of different things in Hawaii, specifically, within the comforts of you know, my family and just being at home with friends. So that was my main driver for coming back home.

Scott: Also, when Krystin says she's played a sport in college, she didn't just play a sport. She was a division one, softball. Oh, she was a dog. I think for me personally one of the main things, honestly was just that I had a hard time finding a job out on the mainland. It's really competitive, especially if you're trying to do something that's related to healthcare in some way. It can get really competitive. And so I think coming home was probably the most ideal thing for me while I tried to figure out what I was doing. And then I, you know, I found the job and at Straub. And so it kind of all worked its way out like that.

Krystin: I think that just knowing that I wanted to end up working here, as a physician, I mean, I thought it would be best to just start building connections with physicians here. And they're always open to students and people interested or people interested in shadowing them. So that was a lot easier than making cold connections in the mainland for me.

[Difficult aspects of the application process: 7:30]

Jason: Yeah, I think I can relate to that a lot myself too, because I also went to college in the mainland, and I came home from my gap years. And it was a combination of a lot of things. Seeing family, again, also financial, like living at home was definitely kind of a relief. And then also, I just kind of needed more time to be in a familiar space while I prepared for the whole application process. So I guess I was wondering if you guys could talk a little bit about how that worked for you. What were some of the most difficult aspects of that from like the MCAT to interviewing and everything?

Scott: Yeah, I can take that. Yeah. Um, so I think the most difficult part for me was I took the MCAT after I came home, so I was working full time. And same for Krystin while I was studying for the MCAT. And that was kind of a difficult thing for me, because you know, how my schedule would go every day is I would work from 8 to 4:30, I'd come home, study for a few hours, eat dinner, and then study the rest of the night and then just go to sleep, wake up and do the same thing, kind of five days a week. And then on weekends, I would basically do a practice test. And so my weekends were gone as well. And so that was just kind of the grind of the application process. For me, that was kind of probably the hardest part of it. I don't know about you.

Krystin: Yeah, I agree. I think just finding time to study on top of, you know, a lot of us were working full time at the time. But yes, Scott is definitely downplaying his study strategies. He was very dedicated. But it obviously worked out well for him. As for the rest of the application, I personally don't enjoy writing. And I was never really good at it. So I think the essays were actually the hardest part for me. But by the time it gets through the interviews, especially with JABSOM specific interviews, I think you're always- or luckily, you know, as a resident or growing up in Hawaii, I was able to talk about things or find things to talk about with my interviewers. So I thought the interviews were actually more on the fun side than the rest of the application process.

Scott: Yeah, definitely. I think some advice I got, when interviews were coming around was just that, you know, interviews are just mainly a chance for you to show kind of who you are as a person beyond what's on paper. And that's kind of a nice break from the rest of application process is just to be yourself and to kind of show why you're excited about medicine. And so it's really an opportunity, rather than something to be nervous about, in my opinion. And so obviously it's very nerve wracking, but it's a really important, great opportunity. And in my opinion, and so that was a good answer. Yeah.

[Standing out in the application process: 10:20]

Jason: Yeah, so this might be a difficult question, especially for people as humble as yourselves. You might have to hype each other up a little bit. But what's something that you think helped you to stand out in the application process?

Krystin: I can go first, I think, you know, playing a sport definitely helped. I don't think it's- I think a lot of my teammates in sports, either weren't pursuing medicine, or, you know, my fellow friends that were pursuing medicine weren't playing a sport, it was kind of rare to find people that were doing both. So that allowed me to talk a lot on teamwork, commitment, you know, all of those adjectives that they- But the I think that was kind of what I tried to let shine in my application. Because playing softball- I played softball- playing sports, in college was definitely very, very challenging. And I think that I really wanted to show that I was able to push through that and still pursue medicine. So I was really- yeah.

Jason: Yeah, I'm definitely grateful that it wasn't athletic enough to do a sport in college, but I can see how it can also be an advantage in some ways. What about you, Scott?

Scott: I'm sorry, the question was-

Jason: What helped you to stand out in the application process?

Scott: Yeah, um, you know, I think kind of the thing for me was that I did a lot of research in college. During one of the summers, in, maybe in between my sophomore and junior year, I had the opportunity to do some research on liver cancer and actually got published off of that. And so I think that was kind of a big thing. But also, like, throughout college, I was doing some wet lab research on Group A streptococcus, and I think that was a good opportunity just to like, you know, do research, but also to practice kind of the critical thinking skills that we all talk about. But you may or may not get in college, just to actually, like, apply your knowledge, something like that.

Andie: But yeah, I think something that's like, totally stressed when you're kind of like a pre med and like in college and trying to figure out like, Okay, what am I going to do to be different is, is the idea of research, and especially in the transition between undergrad to medicine, a lot of it is like, in college at the college level, kind of be like, what you're saying, like bio, like very wet lab research. What do you think you learned from wet lab research that made you a stronger candidate, or, like, pushed you toward medicine? Because I feel like there's correlation there, but people don't always see it. So like, responded, care what you found valuable about that experience?

Scott: Yeah. That's a really good question. I wouldn't say it was like the hard skills like doing a western blot, or things like that, like I don't, I don't really care about. But I would say it was a lot of the soft skills. So I mean, mainly the critical thinking, like, coming up with the research question, and then doing an experiment on that, and then interpreting the results of that experiment and turning that into another research question, if that makes sense. So kind of the critical thinking skills. Also, I want to say I feel like the writing skills you get from writing up reports or writing articles is really helpful. And then probably the last thing I'll say about that is just, you know, part an integral part of the research process is doing a literature review and taking, synthesizing all that I think that's really helpful, especially for med school, because we're presented with all this information in different locations, different places, on different topics, and kind of what you have to do is just synthesize that and make it make sense in one kind of cohesive thing or cohesive story. And to be able to tell that story in a logical manner, I think is an important part of research, but also a really important part of medicine. A really important part of med school and everything beyond. Does that make sense?

Andie: Yeah, totally. How about you (Krystin) because in another way- right like sports, like you said, the buzzwords: teamwork, stuff like that. I can't imagine having to go through college and then also pre-med and also sports- like I could barely wake up for class but what kind of things did you learn as a D1 athlete that just do super elite and you know, really impressive and like, what kind of things did you learn from that?

Krystin: I think, if I were to say one thing that I took away from softball was patience. I think just learning to work with different people, people with different personalities, you know, I was definitely on the quieter side, and being able to stand up for yourself. But also, you know, being okay with working just as hard as your teammates, putting in the same amount of hours and then ending up sitting the bench, you know, and being able to take that frustration and then not quit because of it or not, you know, give up. And so I think your patience, but also commitment, and just-

[Why JABSOM?: 15:50]

Jason: Yeah, no, definitely a great answer. So we've kind of been through the whole- like high school grew up in Hawaii, undergrad coming back, gap, your application process. So next, I’m just kind of wondering what made you choose JABSOM? Was it just being in Hawaii? Was it the school itself? Like, how did you end up here?

Krystin: I think for me, it was a pretty easy decision to want to go to JABSOM. Yeah, my whole family is here. The mainland- being on the mainland for four years really showed me how much I prefer the lifestyle here, and the people. And then also just knowing where I wanted to end up, and what path or what connections would allow me to best do that later. And that was all through jobs. And I think- and then even after starting school here, and you know, meeting the classmates that we have, and the teachers and the doctors that we get to work with, I think that this was, you know, the best possible decision. And where I fit in the best.

Scott: Yeah, that makes sense. I was kind of thinking along the same lines, we’re trying to think like, really, really long term, if, you know, past residency and fellowship, or anything beyond that, if Hawaii is the place you want to end up, it's probably good to start at least making connections or with classmates, or professors, etc. right now. So that you can, you know, potentially look forward to that in the future. And then also, I think, just to be really frank, if you're from Hawaii, financially, it really just makes the most sense. Because of, you know, number one in state tuition, but there are also a number of different scholarships available. And I mean, just comparing the two to some of the schools on the mainland, a lot of private schools, you know, average indebtedness is at graduation is something like 200,000. So just kind of keeping that in mind, I think is, you know, potentially not talked about enough because it's kind of taboo to talk about finances a little bit, but it's something that's really important and should probably go into consideration as much as possible.

Jason: Wow, it sounds like you did more preparation for this podcast than we did, that was pretty impressive. Um, yeah. So I guess kind of like, now that you're here at JABSOM, how would you compare to what you expected? Like when you were, you know, going through the application process and everything.

Andie: Okay. And then just also to add on to that question, what is one of your favorite moments that you've had here so far?

Krystin: I think JABSOM was not what I expected. But in a good way. I think that when you go to med school, you think that all your classmates are going to be, you know, type A studying all the time, but I definitely don't get that competitive feel amongst my class. And, you know, we do study a lot, not to take away from that. But we also do a lot of fun things on the side, we still are able to do a lot of hobbies, which I really enjoy. And then as for my favorite memory at JABSOM. So far, it would definitely be volunteering at the Ironman race in Kona, I think, I mean, it's this world-renowned race that people are flying in all over the world, some of the top athletes, and to just be able to watch the race was one thing but then to be able to take care of the athletes. And you know, in our first two years, we don't get a lot of clinical experience. So we're kind of just thrown into the fire at the medical tent, which was scary, but also just super eye opening and, you know, an experience that I feel like you aren't able to get anywhere else. So I'm really, really happy I did that and recommend it for anybody else that has the opportunity.

Scott: Oh, yeah, I guess for me, as far as expectations versus reality. I think what kind of hit me entering JABSOM was what the true meaning of like self-directed learning is. You know, they talk about that a lot as one of the key components of JABSOM’s curriculum and, you know, in the application process, I think we all kind of say we love self-directed learning, and we've had that experience in the past. But I think once you once you hit med school, it really kind of sinks in what that actually means. And I guess what I mean by that, it's just like, how much studying you have to do kind of on the side outside of things like a lecture, or like an actual classroom, it can be kind of overwhelming. And that's kind of what a lot of people spend so much time doing is the really self-directed learning stuff. So I guess that's kind of expectations for me. And as far as favorite moment, I would say that, you know, I had the opportunity to go to Hilo for a few months as part of like a rural health tract. And I really have never spent a whole lot of time in Hilo. So that was a really great opportunity for me just to experience what medicine is like on a different island, but also just to experience a different island, or a different culture all in itself. Hilo’s like a really great place. It's super laid back. And I had a really great time. So that was a huge highlight for me, I would say.

[Relieving stress: 21:30]

Jason: Yeah, no, I definitely understand your point about the self-directed learning where you know, it sounds great going into it just all freedom. And then you actually have to do it. And kind of realize, well, I kind of wish sometimes people actually told me, you know, either like I do too little or I do too much, you know, so kind of going off of that, I guess, what are some ways that you can like de-stress? Like what are your hobbies? What are things that you do outside of school so that you're able to kind of, you know, handle everything at the same time?

Krystin: Yeah, I think just, you know, remembering what your hobbies are, I think in med school, it's possible to study all the time, there's always something to do. So you really have to set aside time to do things that you enjoy. For me, I enjoy going to the gym, or I enjoy trying new sports or hanging out with friends. I moved to town out of my parents house when we started med school, so I definitely try to make time to go back and visit them. Um, it kind of always just grounds me and you can definitely picked up a lot of hobbies in med school. Maybe it's just me trying to avoid study.

Scott: Um, yeah, as far as me de-stressing. I've tried to find time to to run. For me, I like I guess Long story short, is I just have like, really bad chronic dry eye. And, you know, that prevents me from wearing contacts. And I have to wear glasses all the time. And to be honest, it's been kind of hard just because like, I can't do a lot of physical activities, like a lot of people play basketball, or a lot of people would go surf. And I don't really have the opportunity to do that. Or at least within like a feasible reach. So, you know, I just kind of do some running, I guess.

Jason: I'm also just gonna throw in that Scott's a pretty incredible photographer and award-winning film director. So yeah-

Scott: Yeah, I do like doing that. But unfortunately, we don't have a ton of time to devote to that kind of stuff.

Andie: Yeah. Scott and I agreed to do a marathon by the end of two whole years. We really went downhill. Yeah. I guess on the topic of stress, how to unstress and how to manage like your time. What is your like typical week like as someone in medical school now. Maybe not the whole week, but you know, like, maybe one of you can talk about what kind of time commitments we have here and what kinds of things you do outside in preparation for?

Scott: Okay, yeah. So, um, I think typical day would just be you know, I try to stay at school for as, you know, as much of the sunlight day as I can just because like, I don't really get a ton done it at home. So I try to maximize what I can do at school and then, you know, go home around dinnertime. I try to make sure I eat dinner with my family every night. I'm also just lucky to you know, they cook for me and stuff. So, you know, I try to be appreciated that as much as possible and try to eat dinner with them. And then after that, you know, just kind of unwind and relax for a little bit and then maybe study a little bit, maybe like an hour or two and or maybe finish up LIs or something like that?

Krystin: Yeah, I think everybody kind of finds out where they study best or where they, you know, where they like to spend most of their time. Scott likes to be here at school I personally don't, I do like going to coffee shops, and you know, doing a lot of work there. So I'll be at school for maybe three to four hours for what we have to be here for. And then, you know, I do a lot of my side studying at a coffee shop in Kakaako. I'm also lucky that I live within walking distance from school. So that really helps it and then throughout the week, you're making time, like I said, maybe an hour or two a day to do something for you, outside of studying. And then unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of my mom or dad cooking for me. So I'll you know, set aside maybe one or two days a week to meal prep. So that's usually a typical week for me.

[Favorite aspect of JABSOM: 26:11]

Andie: Another question that we have for you guys is for people who are kind of deciding between like, do I want to go to JABSOM? Or do I want to go elsewhere else? Just what is something that you really love about JABSOM?

Krystin: Yeah, I think so, JABSOM's class size is definitely on the smaller side compared to other med schools. But I think it's really a good thing for us, because a lot of our work is done in even smaller groups of maybe five to six students. And I think that allows us to talk pretty intimately with almost everybody in our class at some point, because the groups are constantly changing, and there's different groups for everything. And this is in comparison to say, you know, I went to a bigger college for undergrad, and there's probably maybe 10 people I know, and everybody else's people I've never really talked to. So getting to know, our classmates on that level, especially if they're going to be you know, the physicians that we're working with one day, is something pretty unique to JABSOM.

Scott: Yeah, I think I would second that, you know, mainly the people, it's, especially if you're from Hawaii, it's really nice to be surrounded by people who kind of have like a pretty similar life experience or come from relatively similar background. And to have people understand you on that level, I think is really important. Just for having like a support system like that going through med school. I think that's a super big strength of JABSOM. And I guess just a second thing I think that's really great about JABSOM is just in general, its position in Hawaii, as opposed to, you know, med schools on the mainland. It's positioned you geographically, and in relation to other countries in the Pacific. I guess over the, you know, over the summer, I had the opportunity to do some research about cervical cancer rates in places like Palau, or the Marshall Islands, places like that. And so I think just its unique position geographically, provides you with a number of opportunities, internationally, in places across the Pacific. You know, I think about Mark who or the over the summer, he got to go to Papua New Guinea, which I think is a super unique thing that JABSOM is able to put on that really, I'm not sure how much opportunities like that is available on med schools in the mainland, if that makes sense.

Jason: Yeah, no, I definitely agree with both of you. That really, is what helps make JABSOM unique. And I apologize in advance for this next question. I know we're all sick of it by now. But it's a medical school version of what do you want to be when you grow up? Have you thought about what you want to practice just kind of in like general terms necessary, but like, you know, inpatient, outpatient specialties, any of that kind of stuff? It's, if you just say, No, that's also fine. Just throwing it out there.

Scott: I've been doing a lot of thinking about it. And I'm not really that sure. I've thought about surgery and thought about internal medicine, and a number of other things. But I think kind of where that comes in, hopefully is when you start rotating through the departments or different specialties. Hopefully that gives you a much better idea. I don't know about you.

Krystin: Yeah, definitely leaning towards pediatrics, specifically, possibly neonatology. I did an elective where I was able to shadow in the newborn nursery, which I know is a little different than the NICU. But I think I just love the environment of being around kids, specifically babies, and just knowing that, you know, they're brought into this world with whatever cards they're dealt, and they just need the best care possible. So but who knows, maybe that'll change. We'll see

[Something most people don’t know: 30:27]

Andie: So I can see you guys both doing, you know, great things, whatever you guys decide. And I think like, that's true. A lot of times people change make different decisions in their years. So you know, we never know what we're gonna do. Our last question for you guys is because he hasn't known each other for so long from I don't know what is this like 19 years at this point 15?

Scott: Has it been that long? Don’t say it like that!

Andie: Sorry, a long time. What is something that, like Scott what is something most people don’t know about Krystin and vice versa, Krystin, what is something a lot of people don’t know about Scott?

Scott: I would say Krystin’s a really humble person, but I think the first thing you’ll notice about Krystin is just that she’s good at literally everything. Like, she just picked up golf recently and just balls at golf. She’s just a dog at darts. Literally everything, kickboxing, yeah. She said she picks up a lot of hobbies and she’s good at every single one of them. That’s probably the one thing I’d say about Krystin for sure.

Krystin: Yeah kind of going along the same lines, but because I’ve known Scott for so long- and this is not even something that people don’t know- but because I’ve known him for so long, he is probably one of the most likable people I’ve ever met, and I don’t think there’s any population of people that we’ve been in that doesn’t enjoy his company, so I’m very lucky to know him.

Scott: Wow thank you! That was a really nice answer.

Andie: That was way nicer than I expected

Jason: We were tryna get some dirt, like something embarrassing. You guys are too nice.

Jason: Alright that’s all the time we have today. Thank you so much to Krystin and Scott, the two nicest and most humble people in our class. It’s no coincidence you guys are friends. And thanks for tuning in and join us next time on JABSOM Journeys.